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Post by river82 on Jan 29, 2018 7:02:31 GMT
At least they should remain consistent Each game in the Dragon Age series has changed quite significantly, in aesthetics, in gameplay, I'm not surprised the lore has changed also. Unlike Mass Effect, Dragon Age has never had consistent design philosophies, not even consistency with characters (Anders). Consistency is something they badly need.
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Post by hulluliini on Jan 29, 2018 7:03:14 GMT
Personally i will always be a lot more suspicious of this new breed of anti-Sjws who apparently thinking being nice/friendly and not hating "different" people or clearly mistreated minorities as a good thing. And considering you mentioned a political figure who is pretty much steeped in sexism, homophobia, transphobia blah blah I am even more likely to conclude the issue is with the person whining, not the company who just tries to portray some more progressive characters, it is supposed to be the future after all and in space. Also sex with male aliens ;^) Thank you. I was losing my hope reading this thread.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 7:05:08 GMT
re:isaidlunch
Sounds like characters can be physically assaulted or killed or even tortured but not sexually abstractly indirectly and symbolically violated, in Bioware games now. Woo.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 7:06:00 GMT
At least they should remain consistent Each game in the Dragon Age series has changed quite significantly, in aesthetics, in gameplay, I'm not surprised the lore has changed also. Unlike Mass Effect, Dragon Age has never had consistent design philosophies, not even consistency with characters (Anders). Consistency is something they badly need. On that we can agree.
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Post by river82 on Jan 29, 2018 7:08:36 GMT
But disagreements are more interesting
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Post by ioannisdenton on Jan 29, 2018 8:18:27 GMT
...Dorian was two games ago and I do not know of any of their other characters who have not been fully realized. Man you know me, i liked andromeda. i liked it's characters much. But do not tell me that changing the sexuality of some characters over the years, or shoehorning diverse characters is not done in a way that feels forced. This things in order to work well in a game should feel natural. Also The priority should not be identity politics, but the game itself. What do you think anita is there for? game design? Or spreading nonsense and giving a message?
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Post by warrior on Jan 29, 2018 9:48:01 GMT
...Dorian was two games ago and I do not know of any of their other characters who have not been fully realized. Man you know me, i liked andromeda. i liked it's characters much. But do not tell me that changing the sexuality of some characters over the years, or shoehorning diverse characters is not done in a way that feels forced. This things in order to work well in a game should feel natural. Also The priority should not be identity politics, but the game itself. What do you think anita is there for? game design? Or spreading nonsense and giving a message? Dude. Chill.
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Post by ioannisdenton on Jan 29, 2018 10:15:50 GMT
Man you know me, i liked andromeda. i liked it's characters much. But do not tell me that changing the sexuality of some characters over the years, or shoehorning diverse characters is not done in a way that feels forced. This things in order to work well in a game should feel natural. Also The priority should not be identity politics, but the game itself. What do you think anita is there for? game design? Or spreading nonsense and giving a message? Dude. Chill. with anthem a Mp game that does not interests me from bioware , dragon age to be released in at least 3 years (rebooted?) and mass effect andromeda 2 not happening any time soon or even at all i cannot chill. can you? in the previous gen bioware released 6 games and DLCS . In this gen only 2 so far.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 29, 2018 10:21:52 GMT
I love the way Life is Strange is being used as an example of 'things for girls'.
It's like me saying the witcher 3 is just for sad basement dwelling neckbeards who project themselves into geralt's charachter to give some validity to their own miserable, lonely existence.
Both are clearly false statements.
Oh and there is no such thing as boy or girl games. There's just games.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jan 29, 2018 10:34:08 GMT
I thought Krem and the chargers were on the whole pretty successful. I never had a problem with Krem, although I didn't think the character was ultimately woven into the story in an organic way. I thought the tone the subplot was mostly handled well (barring a few heavy-handed moments.) I just wish they hadn't retcon'd the Qunari in the process. I think it was unnecessary to do that, but moreso, I think Krem's story would have ultimately been more organic and interesting if it had reflected the rigidity of the Qunari society presented in DA:O. And with that, I flee back to my world of absurd gifs... Never to be heard from again (but not really.)
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 29, 2018 10:36:20 GMT
It's like me saying the witcher 3 is just for sad basement dwelling neckbeards who project themselves into geralt's charachter to give some validity to their own miserable, lonely existence. Hey, don't judge me. Oh. Nevermind.
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Post by warrior on Jan 29, 2018 10:50:48 GMT
with anthem a Mp game that does not interests me from bioware , dragon age to be released in at least 3 years (rebooted?) and mass effect andromeda 2 not happening any time soon or even at all i cannot chill. can you? in the previous gen bioware released 6 games and DLCS . In this gen only 2 so far. What does this have to do with this woman Anita who said some things or other that made you angry at some point? Nothing. She's just as scapegoat in your head, like some boogey(wo)man. I'm bummed about Anthem and everything else too but this has to do with market trends, bottom lines, and corporate decision making. Not because Bioware wrote a character like Dorian or let Anita into their building.
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Post by warrior on Jan 29, 2018 10:52:08 GMT
I love the way Life is Strange is being used as an example of 'things for girls'. It's like me saying the witcher 3 is just for sad basement dwelling neckbeards who project themselves into geralt's charachter to give some validity to their own miserable, lonely existence. Both are clearly false statements. Oh and there is no such thing as boy or girl games. There's just games. Life is Strange has now been recommended to me IRL, not just by you! By two other straight dudes. Imagine that.
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Post by ioannisdenton on Jan 29, 2018 11:19:15 GMT
with anthem a Mp game that does not interests me from bioware , dragon age to be released in at least 3 years (rebooted?) and mass effect andromeda 2 not happening any time soon or even at all i cannot chill. can you? in the previous gen bioware released 6 games and DLCS . In this gen only 2 so far. What does this have to do with this woman Anita who said some things or other that made you angry at some point? Nothing. She's just as scapegoat in your head, like some boogey(wo)man. I'm bummed about Anthem and everything else too but this has to do with market trends, bottom lines, and corporate decision making. Not because Bioware wrote a character like Dorian or let Anita into their building. not chill. can you? in the previous gen bioware released 6 games and DLCS . In this gen only 2 so far. What does this have to do with this woman Anita who said some things or other that made you angry at some point? Nothing. She's just as scapegoat in your head, like some boogey(wo)man. I'm bummed about Anthem and eve its about priorities bioware has. They should get their sh!t straight. Also one does not invite such a controversial person in the industry and let him post on twiter afterwards. check anitas twiter banner "trust no man " necklace , this woman is a troll and has no place in gaming. Bioware is doing this wrong. Sexuality and "diversity" has become a big part of their motto to the point they forget their "we tell stories". I repeat myself that i belong to the people that really liked andromeda.
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Post by natetrace on Jan 29, 2018 13:28:30 GMT
The thing I've always wondered is if Anita has issues with her own father? A lot of issues can start there. ME2 taught me that lol. If not I wonder what he thinks... I don't know the woman, I just know I tend to dislike those who deal in unreasonable extremes. I wouldn't read too much into this visit, though.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 29, 2018 14:40:51 GMT
Not really, I'd say it's more than that.
Again, the higher the potential variance in who and what the protagonist is, the more vague many things need to be in order to avoid the dissonance of referring to a character as something or someone they are not. And with DA you have the choice of race too, which complicates matters even further, because there are some rather substantial differences between the races, both physically and from other aspects. There was SOME acknowledgement in DA:I for example in regards to the race of the PC, but it was fairly light, when things arguably should have made a large difference.
That's reason #2 for why I hated Andromeda. In the trilogy, you felt the animosity between the Krogan and the Salarians. The races were unique culturally and politically with such rich histories. In Andromeda all the races lost their identity. Asari, Turians, Krogan they're all basically human now, lame. The Angara weren't strong enough to fill that void left. Come to think of it Angara weren't that different from humans to begin with. I will say Bethesda certainly handles the differences and lore between the races in Elder Scrolls much better than present Bio with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Well, in a way that makes sense, because all the politics of the Milky Way are basically irrelevant once they get to Andromeda. Most of these people probably wouldn't have signed up for the trip in the first place if they had deep-seated animosity towards one of the other species. And I think there was some sense that the krogan still kind of felt like outsiders, especially in the Elaaden missions, and they were the one species that didn't have their own ark. However, I'd say that Andromeda probably would have been better simply as a new IP about humans exploring space, partly because all the backstory from the trilogy had fairly minimal impact and there were some questionable continuity decisions.
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Post by Arkhne on Jan 29, 2018 15:01:02 GMT
That's reason #2 for why I hated Andromeda. In the trilogy, you felt the animosity between the Krogan and the Salarians. The races were unique culturally and politically with such rich histories. In Andromeda all the races lost their identity. Asari, Turians, Krogan they're all basically human now, lame. The Angara weren't strong enough to fill that void left. Come to think of it Angara weren't that different from humans to begin with. I will say Bethesda certainly handles the differences and lore between the races in Elder Scrolls much better than present Bio with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Well, in a way that makes sense, because all the politics of the Milky Way are basically irrelevant once they get to Andromeda. Most of these people probably wouldn't have signed up for the trip in the first place if they had deep-seated animosity towards one of the other species. And I think there was some sense that the krogan still kind of felt like outsiders, especially in the Elaaden missions, and they were the one species that didn't have their own ark. However, I'd say that Andromeda probably would have been better simply as a new IP about humans exploring space, partly because all the backstory from the trilogy had fairly minimal impact and there were some questionable continuity decisions. Not to derail too much, but that's what Ubisoft should've done with Assassin's Creed and Black Flag. Too often does a company try to use a pre-existing series to generate more sales, but in the end, it alienates existing fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 15:09:10 GMT
My preference for Andromeda, ironically, would have been focusing on the non-Consular "small" species that went on a voyage beyond the Milky Way. Batarian, Volus, Drell, Vorcha - imo it would have helped with the fans that have problems with the evolving societies and different PoVs on the same species while at the same time not serving more of the same to those of us who prefer characters that are not a carbon copy of the characters from Game #1.
I for one enjoyed the Andromeda's take on Krogans and Turians, but I can see how other people just can't take it.
My biggest problem with ME is that I am tired of Asari and Krogans (and, to a lesser degree, Turians) which was imo very limited conceptually to begin with.
The same thing imo is true to the Qun, if Qun is interpreted along the rigid lines Sten gave. Changeability and internal conflict to me is more interesting than any culture, progressive or conservative, that can be described in one page or less, and has nothing more to it.
After all, all those cultures are derivatives from humans here on planet Earth, and that's not even scratching the surface of what we think and how we feel.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 29, 2018 15:21:04 GMT
Here, I highlighted again what you highlighted yourself... That should be a sufficient explanation, as I don't think that their politics are largely kept out. What would a product with all politics kept out even look like? Probably pretty boring.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 15:27:14 GMT
The argument about purely decorative and aesthetic art vs the art with a message and for a purpose is so 19th century... I guess these themes come in cycles.
In the end of the day, I am all for the companies trying to build their dream settings. Why not? I will just avoid playing the ones that I do not like. It will never be easy to feel like you are missing out on a game. What can you do...
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 29, 2018 15:29:09 GMT
Games are entertainment, I'm not buying Bioware games to be educated, or see the latest take on enlightened social commentary. BioWare's games are story-based. Storytelling, also in movies and TV shows, often relies upon the juxtaposition of social commentary and contemporary themes for drama and an interesting narrative. I would argue that Mass Effect Andromeda was not assertive enough when telling the story that the Milky Way races 'were the aliens'. Animations and bugs could be fixed, what ultimately doomed MEA to be a 'not as good' game, in my view, was the lack of punch in the story. If we were discussing Mario Kart, I'd agree with keeping contemporary issues out. I have not played TW3, but I played other games with fixed leads, and each and everyone of them would have been better with customization of the protagonist. In fairness, whilst what you say may be generally true, where games have defined protagonists with particular characters (based on books or a long lore history) I do think it makes sense that they are the fixed characters they are; examples would be: Geralt of Rivia, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, etc. Where a character is a 'blank page' a multi-gendered protagonist is more appropriate. Mario Kart? You mean that game where the sneaky progressives at Nintendo were so obviously trying to needle conservatives by ironically making the communist red turtle shells more dangerous than the money-colored green ones? And the subtle anti-war messages in the fact that characters who fought each other in preivous games are now just having a friendly competition? Plus there's all that fire in the castle levels which is clearly global warming propaganda. DOWN WITH THE MARIO KART SJW INDOCTRINATION! (Yes, I'm kidding.)
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 29, 2018 15:52:14 GMT
Tbh, I'd take "boring" any day if "boring" is the opposite of preachy. The thing is, almost anything can be interpreted as political (hence my joke post about Mario Kart), and "preachiness" can sometimes just be clumsy writing as opposed to a desire to whack the audience over the head with something. You liked TW3, as did I - but did you see it as entirely non-political? Because I thought there were themes of classism, war, and authoritarian oppression in plotlines how the Nilfgaardian and Redanian authorities behaved, the Baron's men abusing the peasants, and the persecution of mages. It's a credit to the writing that it did not, in my opinion, come across as preachy, but I did think it was there.
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Post by Arkhne on Jan 29, 2018 15:56:01 GMT
BioWare's games are story-based. Storytelling, also in movies and TV shows, often relies upon the juxtaposition of social commentary and contemporary themes for drama and an interesting narrative. I would argue that Mass Effect Andromeda was not assertive enough when telling the story that the Milky Way races 'were the aliens'. Animations and bugs could be fixed, what ultimately doomed MEA to be a 'not as good' game, in my view, was the lack of punch in the story. If we were discussing Mario Kart, I'd agree with keeping contemporary issues out. In fairness, whilst what you say may be generally true, where games have defined protagonists with particular characters (based on books or a long lore history) I do think it makes sense that they are the fixed characters they are; examples would be: Geralt of Rivia, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, etc. Where a character is a 'blank page' a multi-gendered protagonist is more appropriate. Mario Kart? You mean that game where the sneaky progressives at Nintendo were so obviously trying to needle conservatives by ironically making the communist red turtle shells more dangerous than the money-colored green ones? And the subtle anti-war messages in the fact that characters who fought each other in preivous games are now just having a friendly competition? Plus there's all that fire in the castle levels which is clearly global warming propaganda. DOWN WITH THE MARIO KART SJW INDOCTRINATION! (Yes, I'm kidding.) Awwww, but it was such a good read until then, I'm so disappointed
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 16:47:25 GMT
As an example I quoted two surveys, one of them I was part of and was about Divinity Original Sin 2, and the other one is this one.
And to quote the developers: "While we expected that we would get a majority male response, we did not expect it to be this skewed Well, I am sorry but this is a very cherry-picked survey. It comes from a sub-niche of a niche game & from a developer that is actually famous for trying to minimize companions and romance side of their games as much as possible in favor of more complicated rule-sets and user-created parties, something they did time and again *and* again, despite the feedback. As well as overall releasing famously buggy and unfinished games. I love Obsidian, warts and all, but lords in heavens, I understand why I am in a minority loving them. I am old compared to most gamers, so NWN2 and KOTOR2 made an impression on me & I had a history with their IWDs. The only reason I have even seen that survey was because it was posted on this board, and it was from Obsi, and I was having warm fuzzies towards them after Tyranny. If I saw that survey after my NWN2 crushed during the final battle in NWN2 OC and Obsidian's response was: "Oh. We fixed it. Start a new game, and your final battle will be just fine---" or after the Storm of Zehir BS... I'd be cussing if someone mentioned Obsidian's name. If you posted a gender survey on this board that represents an active fan community of multiple games in the mixed fantasy-sci-fi genre with a casual-oriented gameplay, my feeling is you'd get the 30% female responders, and many of them among the most loyal, creative, grateful and persistent fans. And, tbh, I see the persistent "in our accurately historic settings girls don't wield swords, dummy, play this big muscular man..." as no less preachy than a take on a classic "girl dressed as a boy" plot who does not change into her womanly dress the moment it is possible. All those games are made in the modern times by modern writers that are fully aware of the world around them and its politics. It's up to them which view they want to espouse and what they want to tell their audience.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 29, 2018 17:13:44 GMT
Since people are discussing Dragon Age, this seems like a great opportunity to bring up this Gaider post: The post in question was this one, where I mentioned a peer review of a plot with a situation that “could easily be interpreted as a form of rape”. During the review, the female members of the peer group mentioned how uncomfortable it made them feel…and because that wasn’t the writer’s intention, he ended up changing it.
Some people took that to mean the writer had actually put a rape into the story, and just didn’t realize it until the female writers pointed it out—which wasn’t the case at all, but since I couldn’t go into detail of the specifics, there wasn’t really any way to clarify.
But Dragon Age: Inquisition is out now, so I’ll clarify. For those wishing to avoid spoilers, this is the point at which you bow out.
Still here? Okay then.
The plot in question was “Champions of the Just”, the one you get if you go to Therinfal Redoubt after the templars and the Lord Seeker. You’ll recall there is a section where Envy has taken the form of Leliana, and is poking and prodding at the Inquisitor’s psyche in order to determine what makes him/her tick.
If I recall correctly, this early version of the plot had it so that the player wasn’t aware they were inside their head. The fight with the Lord Seeker was quickly ended, the templars wrapped up and the player heads back to Haven…almost too easily. Haven is too quiet, and Leliana is there asking odd questions and testing the player’s responses.
One of these things had Envy-Leliana attempting to seduce you. It was creepy and weird, and one of the places where the player was allowed to go, “Woah! This definitely isn’t right!” But the player also had the opportunity to accept.
There were going to be severe consequences for accepting, but regardless of that the thing that was pointed out was how the creepiness of the situation went beyond the demon-seduction itself and more how it seemed to be a sexual violation of Leliana by-proxy. Never mind that it was Envy initiating it, you thought (or seemingly thought) you were sleeping with Leliana, and it made for uncomfortable follow-up trying to imagine whether that was something we could just let slide and/or whether it should be something you could address with the real Leliana…or whether it should be allowed at all.
The circumstances could have been changed, perhaps, and while the peer group discussed it, the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce—it was supposed to be about Envy and its creepy probing only, so he elected to take it out (and, ultimately, the entire set-up of that part of the plot changed anyhow).
I normally wouldn’t discuss an early form of a plot (all of them went through similar revisions on a constant basis), or bring up a plot point which got dropped (which happens a lot), except that in this specific case it felt telling that none of us guys really thought much beyond the author’s intention, and the introduction of an alternate interpretation (gender-based, or at least it seemed such) proved to be an incredibly valuable discussion point that we might have missed if the dynamics on the team had been different…which made me think how much of it might get missed elsewhere. Thus I believed it worth mentioning. Explains why DAI felt so sanitized, the envy demon in this version sounds a lot more interesting than what we actually got. And isn't a demon meant to make you feel uncomfortable? I have to wonder if the writer actually wanted to change it or felt pressured to. Well, he says "the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce -- (snip) -- so he elected to take it out." That doesn't really sound like "pressure." Of course, the writer could have been lying about that and actually feeling pressure, or Gaider could be lying about the process, but I don't have any reason to assume that.
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