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Post by alanc9 on Jan 29, 2018 17:18:49 GMT
The tamassrans interjection doesn't fit in with Sten's analysis that people are born who they are. That they can't diagnose these things at birth and they need to wait till later is yet another example that Sten's world has been changed from Origins. A person's brain doesn't develop until later, and Sten's insistence that people are born who they are should tell you all you need to know about Sten's attitude toward brain trumps body. Huh? That doesn't follow at all. Just because something is fixed at birth doesn't make it knowable at birth. At least, not with any technologies we have yet. Magic might serve, but the qunari wouldn't be likely to use it for that. The question is what "born who they are" means. Does the brain developing later matter, if that development path is already fixed? I'd say that I was born cisgender, straight, and with a whole host of other physical and psychological traits, but that these things weren't discoverable until later.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 29, 2018 17:18:57 GMT
As an example I quoted two surveys, one of them I was part of and was about Divinity Original Sin 2, and the other one is this one.
And to quote the developers: "While we expected that we would get a majority male response, we did not expect it to be this skewed Well, I am sorry but this is a very cherry-picked survey. It comes from a sub-niche of a niche game & from a developer that is actually famous for trying to minimize companions and romance side of their games as much as possible in favor of more complicated rule-sets and user-created parties, something they did time and again *and* again, despite the feedback. As well as overall releasing famously buggy and unfinished games. I love Obsidian, warts and all, but lords in heavens, I understand why I am in a minority loving them. I am old compared to most gamers, so NWN2 and KOTOR2 made an impression on me & I had a history with their IWDs. The only reason I have even seen that survey was because it was posted on this board, and it was from Obsi, and I was having warm fuzzies towards them after Tyranny. If I saw that survey after my NWN2 crushed during the final battle in NWN2 OC and Obsidian's response was: "Oh. We fixed it. Start a new game, and your final battle will be just fine---" or after the Storm of Zehir BS... I'd be cussing if someone mentioned Obsidian's name. If you posted a gender survey on this board that represents an active fan community of multiple games in the mixed fantasy-sci-fi genre with a casual-oriented gameplay, my feeling is you'd get the 30% female responders, and many of them among the most loyal, creative, grateful and persistent fans. And, tbh, I see the persistent "in our accurately historic settings girls don't wield swords, dummy, play this big muscular man..." as no less preachy than a take on a classic "girl dressed as a boy" plot who does not change into her womanly dress the moment it is possible. All those games are made in the modern times by modern writers that are fully aware of the world around them and its politics. It's up to them which view they want to espouse and what they want to tell their audience. For a sun-nice, it looks pretty far-reaching, not just on their forums. Looking at where it was posted: Sources: Kickstarter/Fig Backers, Obsidian Forums, Obsidian Newsletter, Reddit (big thanks to the awesome humans at /r/projecteternity and /r/Fallout!), Twitter, Facebook, and from many of our wonderful developer and publisher colleagues.
And they got 3-4 times the number of responses they anticipated.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 29, 2018 17:20:50 GMT
I find it much easier to believe that like with other topics of interest, *on average*, males are more interested in things, and females are more interested in people. Which is precisely why I used "Life is Strange" as a game that is likely more popular among women than men. Of course you would, because it reinforces your bias.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 29, 2018 17:24:20 GMT
Since people are discussing Dragon Age, this seems like a great opportunity to bring up this Gaider post: The post in question was this one, where I mentioned a peer review of a plot with a situation that “could easily be interpreted as a form of rape”. During the review, the female members of the peer group mentioned how uncomfortable it made them feel…and because that wasn’t the writer’s intention, he ended up changing it.
Some people took that to mean the writer had actually put a rape into the story, and just didn’t realize it until the female writers pointed it out—which wasn’t the case at all, but since I couldn’t go into detail of the specifics, there wasn’t really any way to clarify.
But Dragon Age: Inquisition is out now, so I’ll clarify. For those wishing to avoid spoilers, this is the point at which you bow out.
Still here? Okay then.
The plot in question was “Champions of the Just”, the one you get if you go to Therinfal Redoubt after the templars and the Lord Seeker. You’ll recall there is a section where Envy has taken the form of Leliana, and is poking and prodding at the Inquisitor’s psyche in order to determine what makes him/her tick.
If I recall correctly, this early version of the plot had it so that the player wasn’t aware they were inside their head. The fight with the Lord Seeker was quickly ended, the templars wrapped up and the player heads back to Haven…almost too easily. Haven is too quiet, and Leliana is there asking odd questions and testing the player’s responses.
One of these things had Envy-Leliana attempting to seduce you. It was creepy and weird, and one of the places where the player was allowed to go, “Woah! This definitely isn’t right!” But the player also had the opportunity to accept.
There were going to be severe consequences for accepting, but regardless of that the thing that was pointed out was how the creepiness of the situation went beyond the demon-seduction itself and more how it seemed to be a sexual violation of Leliana by-proxy. Never mind that it was Envy initiating it, you thought (or seemingly thought) you were sleeping with Leliana, and it made for uncomfortable follow-up trying to imagine whether that was something we could just let slide and/or whether it should be something you could address with the real Leliana…or whether it should be allowed at all.
The circumstances could have been changed, perhaps, and while the peer group discussed it, the fact remained that it wasn’t an element the writer wanted to introduce—it was supposed to be about Envy and its creepy probing only, so he elected to take it out (and, ultimately, the entire set-up of that part of the plot changed anyhow).
I normally wouldn’t discuss an early form of a plot (all of them went through similar revisions on a constant basis), or bring up a plot point which got dropped (which happens a lot), except that in this specific case it felt telling that none of us guys really thought much beyond the author’s intention, and the introduction of an alternate interpretation (gender-based, or at least it seemed such) proved to be an incredibly valuable discussion point that we might have missed if the dynamics on the team had been different…which made me think how much of it might get missed elsewhere. Thus I believed it worth mentioning. Explains why DAI felt so sanitized, the envy demon in this version sounds a lot more interesting than what we actually got. And isn't a demon meant to make you feel uncomfortable? I have to wonder if the writer actually wanted to change it or felt pressured to. EH, I'm inclined to think it's better off cut, but for somewhat different reasons than Gaider cited: I don't see it as much as a sexual violation of Leliana, as it is of the Inquisitor his/herself. Leliana is "only" a case of identity theft, while the Inquisitor is, in effect psychically roofied by Envy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 17:59:12 GMT
Well, I am sorry but this is a very cherry-picked survey. It comes from a sub-niche of a niche game & from a developer that is actually famous for trying to minimize companions and romance side of their games as much as possible in favor of more complicated rule-sets and user-created parties, something they did time and again *and* again, despite the feedback. As well as overall releasing famously buggy and unfinished games. I love Obsidian, warts and all, but lords in heavens, I understand why I am in a minority loving them. I am old compared to most gamers, so NWN2 and KOTOR2 made an impression on me & I had a history with their IWDs. The only reason I have even seen that survey was because it was posted on this board, and it was from Obsi, and I was having warm fuzzies towards them after Tyranny. If I saw that survey after my NWN2 crushed during the final battle in NWN2 OC and Obsidian's response was: "Oh. We fixed it. Start a new game, and your final battle will be just fine---" or after the Storm of Zehir BS... I'd be cussing if someone mentioned Obsidian's name. If you posted a gender survey on this board that represents an active fan community of multiple games in the mixed fantasy-sci-fi genre with a casual-oriented gameplay, my feeling is you'd get the 30% female responders, and many of them among the most loyal, creative, grateful and persistent fans. And, tbh, I see the persistent "in our accurately historic settings girls don't wield swords, dummy, play this big muscular man..." as no less preachy than a take on a classic "girl dressed as a boy" plot who does not change into her womanly dress the moment it is possible. This is just one of the few examples of a company that actually released a survey of their consumers that includes demographics.
Bioware has certainly never done that (not recently anyway), and I will hazard a guess that while their games attract more females comparatively, a big majority of their audience is still male. (which is probably one reason why they never release stats about demographics)
The quality of Obsidian's games isn't particularly relevant either, I mean, what are you implying, that males are more tolerant towards technically flawed games? I highly doubt that. I find it much easier to believe that like with other topics of interest, *on average*, males are more interested in things, and females are more interested in people. Which is precisely why I used "Life is Strange" as a game that is likely more popular among women than men.
As for this argument: "my feeling is you'd get the 30% female responders, and many of them among the most loyal, creative, grateful and persistent fans."
First, you might be right, and you might be wrong, we won't know without checking.
Second, I don't know how you reached the conclusion that women are somehow "better fans", but what you are describing is eerily similar to one of the main differences between men and women, which is that women tend to rate higher on the Agreeableness trait than men (one of the Big Five personality traits), which combined with other differences, is exactly what is causing difference in preferences (on average) between men and women.
There's also this for example if you are interested in reading a bit more on the subject.
As for historically accurate games, well, if someone tries to make something historically accurate, there's really nothing preachy about that. It's like claiming that teaching history or physics is preachy. (not that I have any particular interest in historical games myself)
Here is a recent survey by the third party on reddit with almost 2K responders, that places female gamers at 20% as stating Mass Effect share of the fandom: drive.google.com/file/d/0B9IloTt-aAlOUm9zQUdpTThRc2s/viewto support by numbers the claim that a large portion of the loyal fan-base is female, and a lot of girl-gamers take the interest in the genre. I want more games that give me an option to play a heroic female lead, as well as a heroic male lead. A lot of those games are successful and well received by all demographics. To me it’s preachy when females are not allowed in the setting created by the modern writers under the pretext that it makes the setting more “realistic” or “accurate”, when many other elements of the setting does not stand to scrutiny of “realism” and the female exclusion is the only nod towards picturing the society of the fabled old times. That’s an example of a political statement as much as reinvention of a “girl dressed as a boy” content to function as a male, or openly gay characters in other fantasy sci-fi settings. A belief in inherent and natural gender roles is a political statement. So is reinforcing it through the works of art, and trying to present it as ultimately appealing state of affairs in the past. Back then, the men were brave and mighty, and the women were pretty, and wore gorgeous dresses... some even did a touch of magic and were loved by the mighty men, ooooo..... For example, I played a MMO out of China, and the protagonist in this game told a young female NPC: "Well, you know, girls are not really strong enough to fight, they are more into using their smarts!" in what was considered a compliment.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 17:59:30 GMT
I love the way Life is Strange is being used as an example of 'things for girls'. It's like me saying the witcher 3 is just for sad basement dwelling neckbeards who project themselves into geralt's charachter to give some validity to their own miserable, lonely existence. Both are clearly false statements. Oh and there is no such thing as boy or girl games. There's just games. Enlighten marketing departments about that.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 18:09:33 GMT
That's reason #2 for why I hated Andromeda. In the trilogy, you felt the animosity between the Krogan and the Salarians. The races were unique culturally and politically with such rich histories. In Andromeda all the races lost their identity. Asari, Turians, Krogan they're all basically human now, lame. The Angara weren't strong enough to fill that void left. Come to think of it Angara weren't that different from humans to begin with. I will say Bethesda certainly handles the differences and lore between the races in Elder Scrolls much better than present Bio with Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Well, in a way that makes sense, because all the politics of the Milky Way are basically irrelevant once they get to Andromeda. Most of these people probably wouldn't have signed up for the trip in the first place if they had deep-seated animosity towards one of the other species. And I think there was some sense that the krogan still kind of felt like outsiders, especially in the Elaaden missions, and they were the one species that didn't have their own ark. However, I'd say that Andromeda probably would have been better simply as a new IP about humans exploring space, partly because all the backstory from the trilogy had fairly minimal impact and there were some questionable continuity decisions. I think the story of MEA would have been stronger if they indeed kept the 'politics of Milky Way being irrelevant' but more as some Initiative assertion that ends up being somewhat to mostly wrong, as the politics arises in newer forms and with dark hints. Not to say the Initiative can't have idealism nor a truly better chance, but I think the amount of things ignored and the degree to which they ignore them, makes the setting feel much more bland than it should. Like okay, female salarian receptionist. Gonna leave it at that? No interesting dynamics between her and Tann? Wow New Tuchanka is a thing and they butt heads there a little about how to run it. Gonna leave it at that? They just stick there and there's nothing exciting? We leave the exciting stuff to hearing about some uprising a while ago? Oh the Turians are working quite well together with Humans. Fair, makes sense here. Gonna leave it at that? No growing distrust between each of them, based on older distrust that got tempered by Council authority and politics? MEA seemed quite happy to rush into Angara/Kett/Remnant stories without making it worth it to go that far; A/K/R all didn't get the depth required, and ended with either really loose threads or lack of interesting info. So we end up with the whole game feeling far more prologue than it should (compared to ME1's result). Its like why even bring all these species if you're going to do so little with them? I think Bioware attempted Initiative Over All, and I kinda get that, but it came off still too much like Humans Over All, and now we don't even get the sense of world scale with the other species in the Milky Way. Its not like we get to see Thessia again, but they don't even try to go 'Well the Asari set up this unique colony and there's some cool story with them there' - we get an ark that's like any other and they're all Pathfinders. Its all 'Initiative', with only minor story nods to being other species.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jan 29, 2018 18:18:37 GMT
The tamassrans interjection doesn't fit in with Sten's analysis that people are born who they are. That they can't diagnose these things at birth and they need to wait till later is yet another example that Sten's world has been changed from Origins. A person's brain doesn't develop until later, and Sten's insistence that people are born who they are should tell you all you need to know about Sten's attitude toward brain trumps body. Huh? That doesn't follow at all. Just because something is fixed at birth doesn't make it knowable at birth. At least, not with any technologies we have yet. Magic might serve, but the qunari wouldn't be likely to use it for that. The question is what "born who they are" means. Does the brain developing later matter, if that development path is already fixed? I'd say that I was born cisgender, straight, and with a whole host of other physical and psychological traits, but that these things weren't discoverable until later. Yeah this is what I was trying to communicate earlier.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:32:51 GMT
@tzeenchianapostrophe
As a personal note. I started playing the Witcher game from the start, and as of the introductory sequence, nothing so far requires the male-only lead. A customized one would have functioned exactly the same way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:39:51 GMT
Not really. Again, nothing political about *portraying history* as it was (or as close to it as you can manage...). If a videogame is a historically accurate text, that statement is correct. But a videogame is not. It is a work of art, and the settings' parameters are chosen by the creators. When they create that setting, they inject it with politics of the setting, and an assumption that it will appeal to those they intend to sell their product to. They are free to chose their brand of the world. But it is not divorced from the opinion & the ability to manipulate the opinions. If you believe that one fifth of the audience is insignificant and are calling for the developers to ignore that in order to save the resources, well, that's that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:01:25 GMT
Though it seems to me that you don't see a problem with demanding to reduce the quality for the 80% in order for the 20% to enjoy it more. Show me how the quality is reduced for the 80% by adding content that increases the player audience. My daughter is 11. She just played through Dragon Age Franchise, Andromeda and started Jade Empire. Every character she created was a female, and save for one none was a mage. All of them were melee fighters. The only gender related conversation we had among her endless excited tirades about the Bioware games was: "Is Krem a boy or a girl?" to which I replied: "he's like Alex Fierro." (it's a transgender character in one of her favorite books). She also climbed a tower or two as Ezio (and loved that to bits), but she never ever started an AC game on her own, while she is going for the second run of Bio's games. When I look at that, well... I will be honest. I do not want my game list consist of the games where the hero is always a man, be it Ezio or Geralt. I have no interest in politics beyond voting in elections, I do not like the extremes, but I DO want that ONE thing. I want to play games were the main character is a female, and I want my daughter to grow up to not even question weather or not a girl-lead is appropriate for the setting. Because of course it is. And the only reason it is not, is because someone made an executive decision to save the resources, because "girls don't play games". And that someone is not my friend. Politically, creatively, or personally.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 29, 2018 19:10:07 GMT
Though it seems to me that you don't see a problem with demanding to reduce the quality for the 80% in order for the 20% to enjoy it more.Again, I completely understand the fact that you want a game that caters to you, and that's fine, but not with games that are built in a particular way (like TW3) that makes the tight narrative and the particular protagonist into a one of their core strengths. I love the way Life is Strange is being used as an example of 'things for girls'. It's like me saying the witcher 3 is just for sad basement dwelling neckbeards who project themselves into geralt's charachter to give some validity to their own miserable, lonely existence. Both are clearly false statements. I take it back, only one is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:13:13 GMT
Are you going to also ensure that your daughter is not taught history so she wouldn't have to question that? What about various terrible events that happened in the past, will you tell her about them? My child is aware of the historic events, and the realities of the day. She lives in the society that has access to the information. However, it is not about the historic accuracy. It is about the question of: "Can a girl be the hero of this game?" And that's where I do not want to hear: "NO! Ye gods, NO! The setting does not allow that!!!" There is a difference between knowing and respecting the past and not willing to part with it. I am very willing to part with it in favor of the brighter future.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:15:44 GMT
Sure, CDPR could have slapped a female character in, changed some dialog, added in some new characters to go with the new female Witcher and kept the same combat animation. But then it wouldn’t have been the story of Geralt of Rivia, the white wolf. It would have been another story. I wanted to play Geralt from the books and CDPR delivered that. I would have preferred the first option, and that would have actually made me want to read the books. I read a lot of Salvatore's Drizzt after playing Baldur's Gate. Both Drizzt and Bhaalspawn lived happily on in my heart. Now, geralt... well, for me he usurps the place reserved for my character.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:18:42 GMT
However, it is not about the historic accuracy. But what if it IS? I mean, that's my point. I didn't make that game, but those that DID, decided to focus on historical accuracy, they didn't do it to annoy you, to preach, or to bar your daughter from playing it. They did it because that's the theme of their game. I have not seen a single RP game that was focused first and foremost on the historic accuracy. It is always about a cool story with the historic trappings for flavor. ALSO: how do you know their intentions if you are not the one who developed "that" game? (Which? Assassin Creed?)
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Post by vonuber on Jan 29, 2018 19:20:16 GMT
The historical accuracy of being a witcher? Really?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:21:44 GMT
I have not seen a single RP game that was focused first and foremost on the historic accuracy. It is always about a cool story with the historic trappings for flavor. Apparently this one is rather into it. Though I suppose "mount and blade" is similar in some ways, even if extremely light on the character driven part of what RPGs came to be. Which game are you talking about?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:29:16 GMT
Which game are you talking about? Kingdom Come Deliverance.
As for The Witcher, obviously it was a story about a specific individual, and I already mentioned repeatedly my opinion on the added benefit to narrative due to this aspect.
Kingdom Come Deliverance is about a peasant boy whose village was burned to the ground and he then became a knight mixed into the court politics. That sort of upward mobility for a lowborn in 15th century is no more realistic than contemporary noblewomen that fought for their lands, and if the protagonist was a young nobleman/woman their access to the funds, weapons and training and the participation in the court affairs would have been far more believable than a kid that picked the sword from the ashes of his village and did not die on it or starved to death in the aftermath. It's just another game that uses a historic setting as trappings. Given that it is played in FP, not writing a less clichéd and more compelling story open to both genders is not exactly a point in favor of that game.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:38:50 GMT
Don’t the developers have a right to make a game they want to make. Absolutely. But my point is that this choice is just as much a political statement as Krem's acceptance by Qun. Particularly when the statement is "we've considered, but we cut it because it was not important enough and f**k it."
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Post by river82 on Jan 29, 2018 19:46:01 GMT
Huh? That doesn't follow at all. Just because something is fixed at birth doesn't make it knowable at birth. At least, not with any technologies we have yet. Magic might serve, but the qunari wouldn't be likely to use it for that. The question is what "born who they are" means. Does the brain developing later matter, if that development path is already fixed? I'd say that I was born cisgender, straight, and with a whole host of other physical and psychological traits, but that these things weren't discoverable until later. I would agree with you except for one thing; Iron Bull says Krem is born one gender and lives another. That is what the aqun-athlok are. If the Qunari consider the aqun-athlok to be born one gender but later lives another, they must make a determination at birth, and if you go by Sten's speech that's who you are. It doesn't change. I'm going to flat out say that Iron Bull's speech is really badly written, because using that definition the Qunari don't consider Krem to be male, but rather living the role of a male. "Live like another" ... but not is. But 2 seconds later he says Krem's is a guy, not "lives like a guy". So whoever wrote that part did a pretty sloppy job, but the definition of the aqun-athlok is now written in many places on the web as "born one gender, lives like another" and so that's what I'll use for analysis
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 19:49:16 GMT
That was a statement by them? "Not important enough"? The head developer of the game produced multiple tweets in support of the #GamerGate and how they should not be afraid of telling the truth. "The female PC is not important" is a reflection of a political opinion. Just like its inverse, "the female PC is important". It is just two polar opposite political opinions.
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Post by river82 on Jan 29, 2018 19:59:42 GMT
Huh? That doesn't follow at all. Just because something is fixed at birth doesn't make it knowable at birth. At least, not with any technologies we have yet. Magic might serve, but the qunari wouldn't be likely to use it for that. The question is what "born who they are" means. Does the brain developing later matter, if that development path is already fixed? I'd say that I was born cisgender, straight, and with a whole host of other physical and psychological traits, but that these things weren't discoverable until later. In any case, considering you can play as an agender woman effectively in Origins without projecting as female in the company of Sten, and Sten still goes on a rant about women means he probably wasn't talking about gender but rather a character's sex. And that screws a significant part of Inquisition's Qunari lore.
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Post by vonuber on Jan 29, 2018 20:04:21 GMT
The historical accuracy of being a witcher? Really? No one would think you dumb(er) if you asked what game we are talking about. The game in question is "Kingdom Come Deliverance". Oh I'm quite happy being dumb(er) if it means I don't have issues about women being the lead in a game.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 29, 2018 23:14:49 GMT
Huh? That doesn't follow at all. Just because something is fixed at birth doesn't make it knowable at birth. At least, not with any technologies we have yet. Magic might serve, but the qunari wouldn't be likely to use it for that. The question is what "born who they are" means. Does the brain developing later matter, if that development path is already fixed? I'd say that I was born cisgender, straight, and with a whole host of other physical and psychological traits, but that these things weren't discoverable until later. In any case, considering you can play as an agender woman effectively in Origins without projecting as female in the company of Sten, and Sten still goes on a rant about women means he probably wasn't talking about gender but rather a character's sex. And that screws a significant part of Inquisition's Qunari lore. I don't buy the premise that you can play as an agender woman. I don't think we have enough agency in the game to do that. NPCs won't see you that way. (Old argument on this board. I wonder if Sylvius is reading this thread.) Concerning principles of interpretation, I've always though that the useful approach to contradictory or incoherent source material is to use the most workable available interpretation. Since we've got to do something with TIB's tavern talk -- it doesn't really work either way -- we ought to pick an interpretation of that conversation which doesn't cause problems for interpreting DA:O too.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 29, 2018 23:23:08 GMT
The head developer of the game produced multiple tweets in support of the #GamerGate and how they should not be afraid of telling the truth. "The female PC is not important" is a reflection of a political opinion. Just like its inverse, "the female PC is important". It is just two polar opposite political opinions. Are you talking about Daniel Vavra, Director, designer and cofounder of Warhorse Studios, his twitter? Because I've just checked his tweets since you posted the above, went back a ways and found no quotes from him that says ""we've considered, but we cut it because it was not important enough and f**k it." or anything similar. If you have a direct link to where he said that or his studio, please post it otherwise you are infering either from his tweets or from another source. What I see from his twitter is a man whose passion is history and military history mostly. If I had to guess from his tweeter feed it would be he made a game he wants to play. Nothing wrong with that and doesn't mean his putting a set male character in his game is political motivated. Are you saying that you didn't find any of the Gamergate stuff Jade Dreamer mentions?
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