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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 22:58:15 GMT
Again, the Borg-like idea that all games should appeal to everyone, is mind-boggling to me, most especially because games designed with extremely broad appeal in mind often turn out to be rather mediocre. I believe that humans are capable of empathizing and sharing and being interested in similar problems and conflicts and narratives. That a hero of a wonderful and inspired adventure tale can be a woman as naturally, effectively and likely as it can be a man. That it does not change the high level narrative, and what the hero might feel and chose to do, only side-plots, such as romances. I believe it is worthwhile to invest in the games that let this happen vs the games that tell you that this here is a story of a white-haired man, and this here is a story of a red-head woman, and no other hero may apply. EVER.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 23:00:36 GMT
In 2017 the only big game that let you create you own lead was Andromeda. In 2018 it's going to be Greedfall, a half-indie. Monster Hunter: World, but I've never played the series so I've no idea if it's any good Console only...
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Post by Felya87 on Jan 26, 2018 23:02:16 GMT
In 2017 the only big game that let you create you own lead was Andromeda. In 2018 it's going to be Greedfall, a half-indie. Monster Hunter: World, but I've never played the series so I've no idea if it's any good It's a "gameplay is everything" kind of game. I think a single player mode exist, if not a campaign, but is basically a big cooperative multiplayer game.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 23:05:54 GMT
What can I say, I appreciate the Bioware formula (at least the old one, apparently DA4 will have a renewed focus on online elements or something), but I enjoyed TW3 much more than I did the recent BW games I played. And I have had lots of fun with Assassin Creed games, tons of fun, absolutely up my alley in every aspect of graphics and gameplay and ideas and the setting and everything... but I liked the Tyranny better, because my hero, my choices. It stayed with me while Ezio's antics are Ezio's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 23:32:09 GMT
That it does not change the high level narrative, and what the hero might feel and chose to do, only side-plots, such as romances. That's a point I feel I need to highlight, this is simply not true. Take TW3 as an example, the game is VERY reactive to Geralt as a character. Much of the game simply wouldn't work as it is if it had to account for different protagonists, or even different classes. On the other hand kotor 2 and Tyranny handled complex, nuanced and philosophicaly charged storylines without tying them to one man. While the game you told me is made for me, because I am a woman, and the lead character is a woman, has barely any choices, appart from which way you slay the dinosaurs. Ezio is a fixed character and does not give a single shoulder check to the player in 60 hours... And...? The W3 popularity is not due to it being all about Geralt, and only Geralt. It is not due to the story that is an order of magnitude better than any other video-game story in and of itself. It is due to the game providing the player with the means to self-express through the interesting choices, and to develop the Hero to be as they like him to be. And the ultimate expression of that is starting with letting the player to create the said Hero and go from there. I maintain that should W3 had the same level of respect to player choices and intriguing quests, but also had a female lead in addition to male, if Geralt had a customizable looks, the game would have been just as popular. It would have been a great game just the same and as well loved.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2018 23:41:08 GMT
That it does not change the high level narrative, and what the hero might feel and chose to do, only side-plots, such as romances. That's a point I feel I need to highlight, this is simply not true. Take TW3 as an example, the game is VERY reactive to Geralt as a character. Much of the game simply wouldn't work as it is if it had to account for different protagonists, or even different classes. Hmm... what does TW3 do that ME couldn't do? (As opposed to "didn't do.") Shepard and Ryder are fairly well-defined characters, aren't they? OK, Geralt's choices of sex partners are defined in a way that an ME PC's are not, but besides that?
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 27, 2018 0:00:16 GMT
And that's precisely that I do not want. to be pointed at Bayonetta, when I say I want more games like the Mass Effect. The games that are successful in leaving the hero to the player. I was actually speaking of the recent game with the dino-robots, or games like "Life is Strange", as examples for games that were made either to appeal to females, or specifically to your tastes.
The fact is that a game like TW3 was good because of what it was, and while personally I would have enjoyed more having that game with a customizable protagonist, especially choosing different classes, etc. I understand that it didn't have this feature specifically because it went for a tighter narrative, which I found extremely enjoyable in conjunction with the amount of choice the game still offered. I'm a guy and I really liked both Life Is Strange and The Witcher 3. However, while I can enjoy games with heavily scripted protagonists as long as their "default" personalities aren't especially objectionable to me and/or there are still some choices involved (as there are for both Max and Geralt), the games where I can customize my character and how he or she relates to other characters and to the world in general are probably still the ones I most enjoy playing. As far as Bioware and Sarkeesian are concerned, I only ever saw a couple of her videos, but I didn't find anything she was saying to be particularly outlandish. IIRC, she was talking about the disproportionate percentage of male protagonists and female victims in video games, and Bioware was creating customizable player-characters and non-victimized female NPCs before anyone had even heard of her. I certainly don't see how Mass Effect *loses* anything by the fact that Shepard doesn't have to be a straight white male and that most of the missions don't revolve around rescuing a damsel in distress.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 27, 2018 0:25:23 GMT
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Post by turianlannister on Jan 27, 2018 0:32:51 GMT
You still crying about this?
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Jan 27, 2018 0:38:37 GMT
Wow this tweet is a goldmine for Bioware haters xD As for Bioware themselves, they can't help but shove politics in here eh?
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Post by tatann on Jan 27, 2018 0:41:48 GMT
I must miss the context, what's wrong with the photo ? Too many women ? Too many hot women ? Too many not so hot women ? No, a terrible, anti-male person visited BioWare offices. Oh, you mean a feminazi I don't see the link with SJW then, feminazis are the same as nazis, so they should be considered alt right, therefore anti-SJW
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 27, 2018 0:41:54 GMT
The obsession of some people with "straight white male" is rather perplexing. Personally I'm straight, and male, as for "white" I'm really not sure, I guess it would depend on the definition? Probably not. I care about fun games, engaging stories, intriguing characters etc. I really don't give a crap about what someone sees as "problematic", or about "representation". Nor do I care whether Sarkeesian sees certain tropes as "harmful". Well, straight white males have been sort of the "default" for protagonists in fiction for a while, or at least they constitute a disproportionate percentage of protagonists. As far as representation goes, is your position that fiction, and fictional portrayals of ethnicity, gender, orientation, etc., have no real effect on people's attitudes beyond the work of fiction itself? While we can disagree about whether specific examples are portraying certain categories of people unfairly, IMO there are at least some examples that I think most would agree are the wrong way to do these things. For example, in this infamously terrible (for multiple reasons, not just relating to race) episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation had all black actors cast to play the stubborn and stereotypically backward alien race that the Enterprise crew encounters, and Jonathan Frakes himself (who played Commander Riker) once referred to the episode as a "racist piece of shit": memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_Honor_(episode)One could argue that watching the episode won't actually change anyone's attitudes towards African-Americans, but at the very least we can probably agree that it's not likely to help.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 27, 2018 0:47:20 GMT
Anita hasn't been relevant in years. Haven't we learned not to engage her?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 27, 2018 1:06:40 GMT
What are we talking about? I am missing something there.
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Post by river82 on Jan 27, 2018 1:11:15 GMT
What are we talking about? The excessive sodium levels in Subway's sandwiches. Feel free to chime in if you wish
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jan 27, 2018 1:15:58 GMT
What are we talking about? The excessive sodium levels in Subway's sandwiches. Feel free to chime in if you wish They can be pretty salty but I prefer the chicken bacon ranch with buffalo sauce myself.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2018 1:18:25 GMT
Hmm... what does TW3 do that ME couldn't do? (As opposed to "didn't do.") Shepard and Ryder are fairly well-defined characters, aren't they. OK, Geralt's choices of sex partners are defined in a way that an ME PC's are not, but besides that? There's quite a bit, story reactivity is much higher because the protagonist is defined. The story is tailored around him much more closely than in games with high degree of customization. Personally I find that it adds quite a lot to immersion.
That's not very specific; it's not even really an answer. Can you give an example of something TW3 did that isn't related to LIs which ME couldn't do? Or is ME not a game with a high degree of customisation in the first place?
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jan 27, 2018 1:21:22 GMT
Yes, I do imagine some people would like this thread to be locked... Honestly I don't think it is that bad right now.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 27, 2018 1:22:43 GMT
The excessive sodium levels in Subway's sandwiches. Feel free to chime in if you wish They can be pretty salty but I prefer the chicken bacon ranch with buffalo sauce myself. Don't forget the Jared "Super Sauce"! (I gotta stop playing SP:TFBW...)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 1:41:42 GMT
Notice that you are making assertions about a game you didn't play, based on nothing but your preconceptions. Note how I keep talking about the games I have played, specifically, but you only want to talk about the Witcher. In fact, bringing Witcher up as a game that specifically is successful because it carters to a niche demographics is really illogical, because the game has a very wide appeal, and was obviously made to make more people like it. They even added a girl lead to it, albeit in an episodic rather than leading role. It is not niche in terms of having open world and crafting and a strong story and a multiplayer. It has content addressed to juvenile segment, and to the older folks... So, your very favorite Witcher is a very strong argument in favor of addressing the game to as wide audience as possible, as opposite to say, Tyranny that targets the old-school older gamers. It makes no sense to me that all 35 mln of people who bought the Witcher bought it and loved it because the lead character was a white male. ??? That all those 35 mlns would have said the game is crap if there was a romance with Dandelion as involved as the one with Yennifer? If play time on Ciri was equal to that on Geralt & her romance option went beyond one kiss? What, all 35 mln of the Witcher rabid fans would have turned 180 degrees and hated the game? I refuse to believe such a thing.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2018 2:04:51 GMT
Anita hasn't been relevant in years. Haven't we learned not to engage her? She's so irrelevant that she was invited to speak in front of the UN. Bioware also probably invited her because she's irrelevant. Right? you're implying the UN is relevant Did she deliver her speech in between Presidents for life from some 3rd world country?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 2:08:48 GMT
My suspicion is that you can't realistically do both in the same game and still achieve the level of immersion and reactivity that TW3 had. Take Romance options for example, TW3's options were highly immersive and reactive, Bioware's fare on the other hand sometimes feels a bit stretched thin. (which is rather obvious considering the number of options they include.) It's the old quality Vs. quantity conundrum. So... your argument is that it is impossible to create three or four romances instead of two? That's your reason to eliminate a female lead, which by the way has a certain appeal to the very same straight white male demographics of which I had seen numerous, endless examples in MMOs. And goodness gracious, Dynasty Warriors 8 has both males and females that are all attractive, and so do most of the anime games... ain't exactly something has never been done before & who complained??? I am more than satisfied by Bio's romances in DA2 and ME2, and don't find them to be stretched thin, just right. Well, look, I can give you examples of many games that I feel wonderfully handled the main character being opened to the male and female, and all you can talk about is one game, the Witcher 3... because all the other games with a fixed leads, I am sorry, but they really do not show any sign of the same sort of choices and flexibility. In fact most of them either tightly scripted with player spectating all dialogues, or very trite. Look at Technomancer. Zachariah could have been Zoya, and it would have changed nothing.
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2018 2:11:58 GMT
you're implying the UN is relevant Did she deliver her speech in between Presidents for life from some 3rd world country? Good point...
Still, I'd say that calling her "irrelevant" is a bit of wishful thinking. She and her ilk have more than their share of influence.
I mean, BW is a washed up studio that everyone is wondering if its on its last leg or only half of a last leg. Its not like she's sitting there in EA headquarters deciding what games get green lit
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 2:17:52 GMT
Female lead wasn't "eliminated" from TW3. The game was designed from the start with a specific protagonist in mind, just like TW1 and TW2. Personally I happen to think that having a defined protagonist helped with making the game more immersive in many ways. That's completely correct. TW3 did not eliminate a female protagonist. It added one compared to TW1/2, as well as corrected some silliness like those cards in the first one. And was better received than the prequels, and sold more. See how it did not ruin it to have a playable female hero as well as a male?
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Post by Steelcan on Jan 27, 2018 2:20:31 GMT
I mean, BW is a washed up studio that everyone is wondering if its on its last leg or only half of a last leg. Its not like she's sitting there in EA headquarters deciding what games get green lit Probably true. But I find it noteworthy nonetheless that Bioware sees fit to invite someone like her. BioWare saw fit to HIRE Manveer Heer, this is a step down from that
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