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Post by abedsbrother on Jan 27, 2018 21:07:33 GMT
*I disagree (obviously). Many people will argue (as you did) that Alec was simply making a motivational speech. Others saw it as BioWare lecturing some of its customer base on a politically sensitive issue. I think this devolves into a larger question / issue regarding colonialism, which is something that previous space stories (in several genres) suffer from. BioWare attempted to flip the colonialist narrative on its head by giving us, the player, the role of immigrants who arrive unasked in a new galaxy for the simple reason of being "dreamers," itself a term with many meanings in the contemporary climate. Without approving or condemning the gesture, I think the parallels with the politically-charged issue of illegal immigration are obvious. **As for krogan society, the Initiative left prior to ME3. Krogan society should have looked exactly as it did in ME2. What it looked like prior to the nuclear wars on Tuchanka has zero relevance to its depiction in MEA. ***AI was an issue in the OT, obviously. A story about fusing with an AI comes at a time as more questions are being asked about the role AI should play in our lives, and the regulations that some (like Elon Musk and even Bill Gates) are demanding because of the potential dangers it poses. There are also discussions about the role AI already plays in our lives, from fixtures like Amazon's Alexa that listens to everything you say in its vicinity to Twitter AIs tripping over themselves as people trick them into saying ridiculous things. It's more than "just sci-fi" at this point. The OT crafted a narrative that attempted to consider the problems of Kurzweil's Singularity; MEA accepts the Singularity. That is a huge discussion, and an issue of concern for a number of people, fans and intellectuals alike. *You are reaching because of a single word taken out of context, nowhere in the game there is even a attempt to make immigration one of the main (or even a side) plotline for the story. **So clan Nakmor cannot have the same idea as Wrex and Bakara to rebuild krogan civilization just because they left before ME3? That makes no sense. ***Old trilogy also point out the Zha'Til, artificial intelligence beings that lived in harmony with their creators in a sort of symbiosis very akin to SAM and Pathfinder. * If you don't see the parallel, that's fine. Plenty of people don't. Plenty do. Never said it was a plotline, did I? I already suspect the sort of response you'll give to this, so let me save some time: "I think this devolves into a larger question / issue regarding colonialism, which is something that previous space stories (in several genres) suffer from. BioWare attempted to flip the colonialist narrative..." There are a number of problems with colonialism, from traditional concepts of racial superiority to abuse of the environment for personal gain and many others. These can be the story, or they can be (and frequently are) a framework for other stories (like stories of personal triumph, survival, etc.). Perhaps my use of the word "narrative" gave an incorrect impression, but I don't think I'm the one who is reaching here. The rest of my statement stands. If you don't see the parallel, that's fine. ** Never said that. Don't strawman. *** The Zha-Til were able to completely take over the bodies of their masters when infiltrated by the Reapers. This goes directly to the concerns over the use of Synthesis with SAM and Ryder, and actually fans the flames of concern about AIs, instead of alleviating them. BioWare even encourages this discussion with SAM's ability to directly influence Ryder's physiology. AI is a significant topic of discussion in MEA, a discussion which, given the issues elaborated in the OT, disappointed many people with the way it was framed.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2018 21:09:02 GMT
To answer your question: - Alec Ryder's "we're dreamers" speech ("dreamer" being a very politically charged term) / "we're the aliens." - Hainly Abrams - Asari pronouns - krogan society (complete restructuring) - Use and implementation of AI You've probably heard these before. Actually, I've never heard that nobody's allowed to use the word "dreamers" anymore. Isn't that a bit hysterical? Would Canadians even know that Americans get hysterical over that word? Note that the asari pronoun thing is just a particular example of a more general ME:A phenomenon, where members of one race adopt elements of culture from other races. "Vas Hyperion" surname on a human, and so forth. (Hell, file Cora here too.) I agree that doing this particular example was a mistake, FWIW.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:12:06 GMT
I am not offended by numbers. However, I am taken aback by the fear that somehow adding content that I was asking for back in 1999 and came to see being implemented - that led to more women playing videogames - is now portrayed as anti-man and destroying the quality of games. This is a straw-man. Sarkeesian is anti-men, not inclusion of content that appeals to you. What IS potentially destroying video games is the insistence that the only way to do them is to make them with a customizable protagonist. And I'm feeling like a broken record here, but I'll repeat anyway - I think would have harmed the level of immersion in a game like TW3, an assertion you aren't really in a position to argue against, because you didn't even play that game... Again, I don't want to see a Borg invasion into video games. I want video games of different types, including Mass Effect, Tyranny, and The Witcher 3. What I AM objecting to, is the idea that TW3 should have been changed in order to suit your tastes, regardless of any potential consequences to the game's quality. I thought things have improved dramatically when I played ME2 and DA2. I am broken-hearted that people call for falling back to 1997. I really am shaking my head here... I think I've stated quite a few times that I'm not calling to make all video games like TW3. What I AM saying, is that TW3 likely wouldn't have been as immersive and as reactive if CDPR weren't able to focus on tightening the story around their predefined character. Considering the number of times I need to repeat myself, I'm starting to question whether you are actually reading my posts or not. And neither I called for making all games customizable, but certainly for increasing the number of them, because the number of games that have fixed leads greatly outnumber the games with customization, and very, very few companies try it.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 21:12:55 GMT
To answer your question: - Alec Ryder's "we're dreamers" speech ("dreamer" being a very politically charged term) / "we're the aliens." - Hainly Abrams - Asari pronouns - krogan society (complete restructuring) - Use and implementation of AI You've probably heard these before. Thank you for explaining. Personally, I find those items completely inconsequential, but I realize that mileage does vary on that. As for Anita, whilst I don't agree with some of the detailed arguments she makes, I do think there was a valid underlying 'point' she was making about female characters and female representation in games and irrespective of the heat in the arguments, her 'body of work' has had some impact on the games industry. And if she went to have tea with BioWare (we don't know if she was flown across the US or was simply in Edmonton for some event) I struggle to see that as a big deal. P.S. Just looking at her Twitter feed, she appears to seriously dislike Star Trek Discovery, well I'm not very impressed about that! Her opinion I guess... What I AM saying, is that TW3 likely wouldn't have been as immersive and as reactive if CDPR weren't able to focus on tightening the story around their predefined character. And on The Witcher III, I think it's a masterpiece, and the character of Geralt (as written) is a darn sight more tolerant and accepting of diversity than some of the more rabid elements of the Witcher III fanbase.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2018 21:14:43 GMT
Here, I highlighted again what you highlighted yourself... That should be a sufficient explanation, as I don't think that their politics are largely kept out. What would a product with all politics kept out even look like?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:18:19 GMT
And neither I called for making all games customizable, but certainly for increasing the number of them, because the number of games that have fixed leads greatly outnumber the games with customization, and very, very few companies try it. True enough. But understand that RPG games are considered a niche to begin with, TW3 was a bit of a hybrid between the strengths of an RPG and the strengths of games with fixed narrative. I have not played TW3, but I played other games with fixed leads, and each and everyone of them would have been better with customization of the protagonist.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 21:26:51 GMT
Games are entertainment, I'm not buying Bioware games to be educated, or see the latest take on enlightened social commentary. BioWare's games are story-based. Storytelling, also in movies and TV shows, often relies upon the juxtaposition of social commentary and contemporary themes for drama and an interesting narrative. I would argue that Mass Effect Andromeda was not assertive enough when telling the story that the Milky Way races 'were the aliens'. Animations and bugs could be fixed, what ultimately doomed MEA to be a 'not as good' game, in my view, was the lack of punch in the story. If we were discussing Mario Kart, I'd agree with keeping contemporary issues out. I have not played TW3, but I played other games with fixed leads, and each and everyone of them would have been better with customization of the protagonist. In fairness, whilst what you say may be generally true, where games have defined protagonists with particular characters (based on books or a long lore history) I do think it makes sense that they are the fixed characters they are; examples would be: Geralt of Rivia, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake, etc. Where a character is a 'blank page' a multi-gendered protagonist is more appropriate.
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Post by melbella on Jan 27, 2018 21:35:38 GMT
So, if you don't agree with Bioware's politics, and think they are infusing their games with it, why do you play their games? Sounds like a glutton for punishment to me. If I find games objectionable, for whatever reason, guess what? I don't play them.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 21:37:33 GMT
I wonder if you would think the same if the political message was one you disagreed with... Good question, I guess I probably watch TV shows / movies / play games where I would tend to agree with the 'world view' of the creators or protagonists. (Mass Effect 1-3, of course, offered a choice) Off the top of my head, I can't think of a TV shows / movie series / game series that I became disillusioned with...
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 21:44:23 GMT
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a TV shows / movie series / game series that I became disillusioned with... ok, I can think of an example, because I saw Angry Joe reviewing a game called 'Duck Dynasty'. A game based around shooting animals and from what I've read would be considered 'conservative Protestant Christian views' would not be the game for me. However, I would not expect the makers to tone down the politics for my benefit (live and let live, animals aside obviously) But I would vote with my feet and not play, no issue with people who like it.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 27, 2018 21:56:33 GMT
Does that prevent them from telling great stories with compelling deep characters and rich multi faceted races (see the Angarra )? Based on their last two games obviously not. Yes, I'd say it can potentially prevent telling great stories, and certainly can harm a great story when The Message is more important than the story, or when it is shoved in with little regard to what makes sense in the context of the world, etc. As for the Angara, I see the design of aliens in ME:A as one of the major failings of that game sure. My personal favorite example is Star Trek the next generation. But the issue at hand is: is this an issue which effects modern bioware games? And imo it isn't. And I speak as someone who is very to the right politically. I have never felt judged or lectured at by bioware. The closest I have ever come was the Bhalen harrowmont decision in Origins.
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Post by Beerfish on Jan 27, 2018 22:05:53 GMT
I don't have a huge issue with the original event posted here. No big deal though wish we could quickly get to the point of not singling out sexes.
Re BioWare and some sort of politically correctness, with no real proof on my part i was disappointed that they seemed to make a story arch change when they just pretended that Sandal never existed all of a sudden.
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Post by Beerfish on Jan 27, 2018 22:12:03 GMT
...they just pretended that Sandal never existed all of a sudden Well, Sandal IS the Maker, so it would be within his powers to make everyone forget about him... I think some one or even bioware writers themselves suddenly decided they were making fun of a mentally handicapped savant.
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Post by Arkhne on Jan 27, 2018 22:13:34 GMT
...they just pretended that Sandal never existed all of a sudden Well, Sandal IS the Maker, so it would be within his powers to make everyone forget about him... Wait. What? Clearly I'm missing some Lore here?
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Post by abedsbrother on Jan 27, 2018 22:14:50 GMT
Well, Sandal IS the Maker, so it would be within his powers to make everyone forget about him... Wait. What? Clearly I'm missing some Lore here? Enchantment!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 27, 2018 22:26:23 GMT
Here, I highlighted again what you highlighted yourself... That should be a sufficient explanation, as I don't think that their politics are largely kept out. What would a product with all politics kept out even look like?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 27, 2018 22:30:01 GMT
The real problem is not drinking the Kool-Aid but rather the poor judgement that leads to it.
An SJW overdoes is not a top problem with BioWare, not even close. But poor judgement, of which something like this symptomizes, well. That's a whole other story.
But not the whole story. Because in my lazy 20 seconds of googling, I saw no indication that BioWare are lauding or even mentioning this visit themselves. If it wasn't their idea or they're not advertising/pattting themselves on the back for it, it may not be as bad as some are making it. Edmonton isn't exactly the Pentagon. I assume to some extent anyone can go there and say they've been.
Certainly if this was the last straw for you, then you haven't been paying attention/ you need to go deeper.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 22:34:57 GMT
Wait. What? Clearly I'm missing some Lore here? Enchantment! Enchantment !! (come on people, we can be faster than that... )
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 27, 2018 22:37:22 GMT
Wait. What? Clearly I'm missing some Lore here? Enchantment! I am Groot!
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 27, 2018 22:42:57 GMT
The closest I have ever come was the Bhalen harrowmont decision in Origins. Yes, tricky. Even though Bhelen was arguably more progressive, I played as Lady Aeducan early on and could never countenance that back-stabber. Similarly, the Arl's son, Vaughan Kendells got the point of my knife with extreme prejudice every time, irrespective of which origin I was playing.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2018 23:04:35 GMT
I don't have a huge issue with the original event posted here. No big deal though wish we could quickly get to the point of not singling out sexes. Re BioWare and some sort of politically correctness, with no real proof on my part i was disappointed that they seemed to make a story arch change when they just pretended that Sandal never existed all of a sudden. I'm not actually sure what you're talking about here. Sandal's mentioned by Dagna and his stuff turns up in Trespasser.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 27, 2018 23:07:24 GMT
BioWare games have always been progressive, but I must say I think starting with 3 it started getting too preachy. For example, one dialogue with EDI in the cockpit has Joker telling some Krogan vs Salarian jokes and EDI corrects him saying it plays to racial stereotypes on both sides, and then Joker explains back to her that it's one of the few jokes you'll hear being said on both sides. He then explains that comedy isn't about being nice but it can be a way to air out the ugly things people think (almost exact phrasing here).
It's a minor detail but even this I thought is too much the type of moral statements you'll hear said on Twitter or between people in political conversations. The point isn't "keep yo polidicks out of mah games!" it's more that when it becomes political-spouting inside a game and feels like exactly the kinds of debates you'll hear outside the game it feels... cheap, and unfitting. Luckily this works because of the context but it still feels like an annoying message snuck in here that's more about Patrick telling you what he thinks than it's about writing applicabily for Mass Effect.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jan 27, 2018 23:20:19 GMT
Anita is trash, I agree, but overreaction, tho? Also, what a diverse cast. Not my BioWare.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 27, 2018 23:27:30 GMT
BioWare games have always been progressive, but I must say I think starting with 3 it started getting too preachy. For example, one dialogue with EDI in the cockpit has Joker telling some Krogan vs Salarian jokes and EDI corrects him saying it plays to racial stereotypes on both sides, and then Joker explains back to her that it's one of the few jokes you'll hear being said on both sides. He then explains that comedy isn't about being nice but it can be a way to air out the ugly things people think (almost exact phrasing here). It's a minor detail but even this I thought is too much the type of moral statements you'll hear said on Twitter or between people in political conversations. The point isn't "keep yo polidicks out of mah games!" it's more that when it becomes political-spouting inside a game and feels like exactly the kinds of debates you'll hear outside the game it feels... cheap, and unfitting. Luckily this works because of the context but it still feels like an annoying message snuck in here that's more about Patrick telling you what he thinks than it's about writing applicabily for Mass Effect. The Joker conversation was something that was true to real life though. As you pointed out in your post. And...Joker was right. I do not see how a work of fiction can be considered 'politically preachy' if it presents both sides in a cool, logical, rational manner without passing judgement on either side. Joker and EDI had the type of conversation that many of us should aspire to in real life. Two friends having a plesent debate without judging each other,note after Joker said his piece EDI was not all like "DIE CIS SCUM"
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 27, 2018 23:36:44 GMT
BioWare games have always been progressive, but I must say I think starting with 3 it started getting too preachy. For example, one dialogue with EDI in the cockpit has Joker telling some Krogan vs Salarian jokes and EDI corrects him saying it plays to racial stereotypes on both sides, and then Joker explains back to her that it's one of the few jokes you'll hear being said on both sides. He then explains that comedy isn't about being nice but it can be a way to air out the ugly things people think (almost exact phrasing here). It's a minor detail but even this I thought is too much the type of moral statements you'll hear said on Twitter or between people in political conversations. The point isn't "keep yo polidicks out of mah games!" it's more that when it becomes political-spouting inside a game and feels like exactly the kinds of debates you'll hear outside the game it feels... cheap, and unfitting. Luckily this works because of the context but it still feels like an annoying message snuck in here that's more about Patrick telling you what he thinks than it's about writing applicabily for Mass Effect. Hmm.. but given that humor was a topic of conversation for Joker and EDI in general, wasn't this a logical question for EDI to have, and a reasonable answer from Joker?
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