Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2021 15:23:33 GMT
I actually hope there's a chance to commit genocide in DA4, since I'm likely gonna be roleplaying as an ambitious magister who becomes enthralled with blood magic. It doesn't mean I'm looking to purge a bunch of minorities in real life, but the evil options have been a bit lackluster in the past 2 days since DAO. I don't know about genocide (carries too much baggage for future games) but yeah, the option for a genuine "evil" run. Not a psychotic moustache-twirling villain, necessarily. But someone who's just out for their own power and enrichment. While it's not something I necessarily like to play, I know that others do, and the options to role-play that kind of character have gotten fewer and further between in Bioware games.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,109 Likes: 49,996
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2021 15:32:09 GMT
My biggest problem with writers shoe-horning their social/political talking points, especially in fiction, is when it comes at the cost of world-building. Dorian with his whole loyalty quest completely derailed the fantasy setting of Dragon Age, more specifically the world building behind Tevinter, just so we could have an after-school special about a parent trying to "cure their son of the gays". Or how about in Mass Effect where we have our Asari diplomat to Andromeda talking about preferred pronouns to a newly encountered alien species? Fantasy and Science Fiction draws me in specifically because I can encounter things that are not possible in the real world. I couldn't care less about what pronoun an NPC wants to be known as when there is silicon-based lifeform right behind them that I can't go investigate because the narrative suddenly wants to explore this inclusion of the 'representation checkbox'. Humans, and all of our social/political/cultural baggage, are boring. Show me more aliens, more monsters, more elements that set this world apart from what I experience 24/7 in the real world. Interacting with the Messenger or dealing with the Mother and her Children was far more engaging and thought provoking to me than Dorian's after-school special or Krem's pronoun dispute, just as talking with Legion about the Geth or the Rachni queen about her species was far more interesting than learning that Steve likes men or that a trans person was so persecuted in a less than 1% explored Milky Way that they had to come all the way to Andromeda to escape the evil bigots. In the case of Dorian's quest, I never saw it as his father trying to "convert" his son, though I can see how it can be read that way. He was trying to control his son's mind so he'd be amenable to marrying the woman they had picked out for him to keep up appearances. Just as his parents married each other and absolutely LOATHED each other. I think the quest needed to make that more clear. It wasn't "teh gay!" his father wanted to cure, it was his rebellion against tradition. His father would have been just as happy if Dorian "closed his eyes and thought of the Imperium" until he sired a child, maintaining Tevinter's eugenics program. Then he could have all the boyfriends he wanted. And yes, the asari lecturing the angaran (and by extension the player) about proper pronoun usage was absolute cringe. Especially given it's coming from a monogendered race to whom "male" and "female" is a meaningless concept!
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 26, 2021 16:23:03 GMT
OH GOOD, THIS AGAIN
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 26, 2021 16:26:32 GMT
"Male and female are meaningless concepts to the Asari, therefore they should all identify as women!"
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2021 16:31:05 GMT
"Male and female are meaningless concepts to the Asari, therefore they should all identify as women!" They don't. The distinction is purely for the convenience of the aliens they have to deal with.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 26, 2021 16:35:18 GMT
"Male and female are meaningless concepts to the Asari, therefore they should all identify as women!" They don't. The distinction is purely for the convenience of the aliens they have to deal with. Then you have no rational reason to object to that ambient dialogue, since it only explains an aspect of the setting that you claim to already understand.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2021 16:43:15 GMT
They don't. The distinction is purely for the convenience of the aliens they have to deal with. Then you have no rational reason to object to that ambient dialogue, since it only explains an aspect of the setting that you claim to already understand. I do. It's pointless. Asari would not CARE what they were referred to. They are called "female" because they are all capable of giving birth (and they kinda resemble human females) Using asari to lecture on pronouns was a dumb, cringey move. The lecture itself was already dumb. But it could have been done with literally any other species and it would have made more sense.
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FiendishlyInventive
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 26, 2021 16:59:09 GMT
Give me the option to play pragmatic or idealistic I'm more interested in that than strictly good or strictly evil.
Basically in terms of roleplaying dialogue I'd rather have KOTOR TSL than original KOTOR.
I'd love to see a return of stats influencing dialogue options most of all.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 26, 2021 17:12:33 GMT
Oh, well, god forbid that a work of fantasy or sci-fi ever sacrifice "authenticity" by positing an alternative to the bigotry and oppression of the real world. Why even have speculative fiction if it's not allowed to speculate? "I do not know what trans audiences want out of their representation." I stated my preference as a trans person. I'm giving you an answer from personal experience and that's truly all. Please do not take offense at imagined statements.
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Norstaera
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Stealth Swooper
This morning my husband said I was evil like June Cleaver. I cried a single tear of wicked happiness
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Post by Norstaera on Aug 26, 2021 18:55:44 GMT
I agree that there should be more opportunities to make ruthless/evil decisions be they death, betrayal, double dealing. It's not a style I usually play, but I want to be able to choose that kind of play.
I also want some morally ambiguous choices. By this I mean that your choice may look terrible, but it can be a lesser of two evils (depending on perspective) or a necessary, hold-your-nose-and-just-do-it evil because you see it as the only way to 'achieve your mission' which you see as ultimately a good or at least necessary thing. It would be nice if some of these less savory options were because of earlier decisions that led you to this point in time.
Finally (for now), the chance you will die. I don't just mean die in battle, see a splash screen, and load the save to try again. Obviously, we'll have that. I mean that at the end of our mission, the big bad is defeated, but you died in the process. Sure, the noble and heroic ultimate sacrifice is one way to go. We had that with the Warden. I'm going to use DAO to describe what I mean.
- By the time you get to the Landsmeet, you have your allies: Dalish Elves or Werewolves, Mages or Templars, Golems-maybe, Legion of the Dead-maybe, humans and dwarves. Any combination will allow you to win and survive, but there is an optimum and least optimum combination. How you deploy your troops will be one factor in determining your ultimate survival.
- Your companions, or lack of them, is another factor. How many are at the Gates of Denerim when you arrive? Assuming only some can go with you, who do you take? Again, there can be an optimum party balance, depending on your class and specialty.
- Who you leave behind to lead the troops can be a factor in your living success. Not sure how, but there should be some way. Maybe their willpower stat?
- Do you go straight to Fort Drakon or do you clear out the areas of the city? I always do to minimize darkspawn coming up behind me later.
- Do you convince the city Elves to fight with you or to stay out of the way?
- Of those you take with you, how vested are they in your survival? We'll assume that your LI will be the most interested in your staying alive for a happily ever after.
- At point X, just before entering the rooftop and seeing Archie, you are at the point of no return. You can finalize your tactics, etc. When you go through that door, if you die during this fight, the mission will succeed or fail depending on A through E and how well the team fought prior to your death.
- Your personal survival might depend on resources (health potions, equipment, party skills, your skills) as well as your relationship with your companions. If you set some tactics to defend you, after point X your relationship with that companion will affect this tactic.
- Are they with you solely for the mission? At point X, they will be a lot slower to have your back. Their focus will be on the enemy and battle, not you. Let's say they allow 10 hits before noticing your predicament.
- Are you friends? The mission is important but so are you. 2-7 hits before they react, depending on how friendly.
- Your LI will keep a closer eye on you and be quickest of all to help you out of a jam.
Just some thoughts. But think of the cutscenes afterward!
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Post by colfoley on Aug 26, 2021 20:39:45 GMT
My biggest problem with writers shoe-horning their social/political talking points, especially in fiction, is when it comes at the cost of world-building. Dorian with his whole loyalty quest completely derailed the fantasy setting of Dragon Age, more specifically the world building behind Tevinter, just so we could have an after-school special about a parent trying to "cure their son of the gays". Or how about in Mass Effect where we have our Asari diplomat to Andromeda talking about preferred pronouns to a newly encountered alien species? Fantasy and Science Fiction draws me in specifically because I can encounter things that are not possible in the real world. I couldn't care less about what pronoun an NPC wants to be known as when there is silicon-based lifeform right behind them that I can't go investigate because the narrative suddenly wants to explore this inclusion of the 'representation checkbox'. Humans, and all of our social/political/cultural baggage, are boring. Show me more aliens, more monsters, more elements that set this world apart from what I experience 24/7 in the real world. Interacting with the Messenger or dealing with the Mother and her Children was far more engaging and thought provoking to me than Dorian's after-school special or Krem's pronoun dispute, just as talking with Legion about the Geth or the Rachni queen about her species was far more interesting than learning that Steve likes men or that a trans person was so persecuted in a less than 1% explored Milky Way that they had to come all the way to Andromeda to escape the evil bigots. In the case of Dorian's quest, I never saw it as his father trying to "convert" his son, though I can see how it can be read that way. He was trying to control his son's mind so he'd be amenable to marrying the woman they had picked out for him to keep up appearances. Just as his parents married each other and absolutely LOATHED each other. I think the quest needed to make that more clear. It wasn't "teh gay!" his father wanted to cure, it was his rebellion against tradition. His father would have been just as happy if Dorian "closed his eyes and thought of the Imperium" until he sired a child, maintaining Tevinter's eugenics program. Then he could have all the boyfriends he wanted. And yes, the asari lecturing the angaran (and by extension the player) about proper pronoun usage was absolute cringe. Especially given it's coming from a monogendered race to whom "male" and "female" is a meaningless concept! We played as an Angarra in Mass Effect Andromeda? Huh.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Aug 26, 2021 21:44:06 GMT
I personally chalked the asari pronoun scene up to Bioware's... lack of ideas (?) at times - in that they did not come up with a specific pronoun from an asari language which is only used to address other asari and is probably untranslateable into our silly gender-binaried western languages. Then again, they did not made much in terms of "alien" languages in ME.
The "Vints don't like gays" thing is weird. Apparently most other nations are supposed to be more tolerant even though they care just as much about continuing noble bloodlines and breeding certain traits - like magic - out of them? I don't really buy that.
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Post by phoray on Aug 26, 2021 23:08:32 GMT
I thought Gaider straight up said that it was about conversion therapy, but maybe that's an assumption that's become the feeling of factual since it's been repeated so often by fans.
I definitely know that he says he called upon his own experiences/emotions about being gay himself to write Dorian. Since Gaider is not of royal blood with anyone to push him to pretend not to be gay long enough for him procreate specifically whilst having lovers on the side ... I'm leaning heavily on the conversion therapy comparison.
Or at least a heavy wish for parents that there children be what they expected rather than happy. And then he had to involve Tevinter blood magic (because a Tevinter mage means blood magic has gotta be mentioned) and came up with what he came up with
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Post by phoray on Aug 26, 2021 23:12:13 GMT
NorstaeraLiked the suicide mission in ME2 but only the protagonist can die? colfoleyI'm no MEA expert but I think it was ambient conversation between an Asari and an Angaran.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,109 Likes: 49,996
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Post by Iakus on Aug 26, 2021 23:53:28 GMT
The "Vints don't like gays" thing is weird. Apparently most other nations are supposed to be more tolerant even though they care just as much about continuing noble bloodlines and breeding certain traits - like magic - out of them? I don't really buy that.
The Vints are fine with it, As long as you keep the bloodline going, they don't care who you otherwise bed, provided you show at least a modicum of discretion about it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 27, 2021 0:14:18 GMT
Norstaera Liked the suicide mission in ME2 but only the protagonist can die? colfoley I'm no MEA expert but I think it was ambient conversation between an Asari and an Angaran. This actually does put me in mind of something. The biggest reason that I think people tend to get gun shy about killing companions, at the Bio level, is who knows when they might want to use them again and any hand wave that they 'survived being stabbed' risks sounding like a cop out which does not account for player choice. But since BioWare is sticking to their new protag each game every thing this should, at least in theory, give us a lot more control over the player character in terms of their ultimate fate and hence can craft a narrative which is a lot more tied up in the arc of said protagonist if they were to go this route.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 27, 2021 0:17:47 GMT
The "Vints don't like gays" thing is weird. Apparently most other nations are supposed to be more tolerant even though they care just as much about continuing noble bloodlines and breeding certain traits - like magic - out of them? I don't really buy that.
The Vints are fine with it, As long as you keep the bloodline going, they don't care who you otherwise bed, provided you show at least a modicum of discretion about it. So basically Tevinter is every internet homophobe who "doesn't care what you do behind closed doors, just stop shoving it in my face". Great.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 27, 2021 0:24:29 GMT
Oh, well, god forbid that a work of fantasy or sci-fi ever sacrifice "authenticity" by positing an alternative to the bigotry and oppression of the real world. Why even have speculative fiction if it's not allowed to speculate? "I do not know what trans audiences want out of their representation." I stated my preference as a trans person. I'm giving you an answer from personal experience and that's truly all. Please do not take offense at imagined statements. I object to the general sentiment that fantasy worlds should ape the bigotry of the real world or they lose "authenticity" or break "immersion", or whatever other arbitrary, meaningless term people use that day. You can want whatever you want, as long as it only affects you, I truly do not care, but it's unfortunate that your position lines up with the talking points of bigots whose real aim is just to push queers out games completely.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 27, 2021 0:53:20 GMT
I do. It's pointless. Asari would not CARE what they were referred to. If Asari don't care, why do you? Okay, so now we've gone from "male and female are meaningless concepts to the Asari" to "Asari are female cause vag and titties". So which is it? Putting aside the fact that not all "human females" fit the idealized fantasy body shape given to all Asari, this is just imposing human standards on the Asari again, just like you complained Andromeda does. So your problem isn't that human standards are being imposed on the Asari, it is that your standard is not being imposed on the Asari. Clearly it was necessary, since you and others don't understand the basic concept that a species being mono-sex does not obligate every individual within it to adopt human "she/her" pronouns. And this despite Liara clearly stating in game one that she is "not precisely a woman", and referring to her parents as "mother and father", not "mother and mother". Why would it make more sense? If Asari are mono-sex, then their own pronouns are not linked to sex, and the decision of which foreign pronouns to adopt when dealing with other species is therefore entirely arbitrary, so why can't some of them prefer he/him or they/them, or something else?
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Aug 27, 2021 5:28:54 GMT
"I do not know what trans audiences want out of their representation." I stated my preference as a trans person. I'm giving you an answer from personal experience and that's truly all. Please do not take offense at imagined statements. I object to the general sentiment that fantasy worlds should ape the bigotry of the real world or they lose "authenticity" or break "immersion", or whatever other arbitrary, meaningless term people use that day. You can want whatever you want, as long as it only affects you, I truly do not care, but it's unfortunate that your position lines up with the talking points of bigots whose real aim is just to push queers out games completely. Hey, let's not compare people with other preferences in regards to their own representation to bigots. FiendishlyInventive can have her own opinions on the matter, without people attacking her for it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 27, 2021 7:07:56 GMT
I object to the general sentiment that fantasy worlds should ape the bigotry of the real world or they lose "authenticity" or break "immersion", or whatever other arbitrary, meaningless term people use that day. You can want whatever you want, as long as it only affects you, I truly do not care, but it's unfortunate that your position lines up with the talking points of bigots whose real aim is just to push queers out games completely. Hey, let's not compare people with other preferences in regards to their own representation to bigots. FiendishlyInventive can have her own opinions on the matter, without people attacking her for it. That is not what I said, and since everybody in here always insists on interpreting everything *I* say in the least charitable way possible, and twisting my words in defiance of even the most basic reading comprehension, and failing to step in on my behalf when I'm being insulted or accused of straight up demented, demonstrably false things, you'll forgive me if I withhold from others the courtesies that have not been extended to me!
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Aug 27, 2021 8:05:47 GMT
Hey, let's not compare people with other preferences in regards to their own representation to bigots. FiendishlyInventive can have her own opinions on the matter, without people attacking her for it. That is not what I said, and since everybody in here always insists on interpreting everything *I* say in the least charitable way possible, and twisting my words in defiance of even the most basic reading comprehension, and failing to step in on my behalf when I'm being insulted or accused of straight up demented, demonstrably false things, you'll forgive me if I withhold from others the courtesies that have not been extended to me! But you do realize that this is a trans person who has a preference, rather than an anti-trans person who's hateful towards trans people and trans representation in media, so why even bring up bigots in this context? They're completely different things.
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Post by Adia on Aug 27, 2021 10:36:37 GMT
I want enemies to lovers. That lasts for at least one to two acts. No Zevran doesn't really count.
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Post by bierkrug on Aug 27, 2021 11:17:06 GMT
The "Vints don't like gays" thing is weird. Apparently most other nations are supposed to be more tolerant even though they care just as much about continuing noble bloodlines and breeding certain traits - like magic - out of them? I don't really buy that.
The Vints are fine with it, As long as you keep the bloodline going, they don't care who you otherwise bed, provided you show at least a modicum of discretion about it. Same as the Fereldans, Orlesians, Dalish, city elves and Qun. They are kinda samey in that way.
I want enemies to lovers. That lasts for at least one to two acts. No Zevran doesn't really count.
As long as it's done more skillfully than in Star Wars I'm all for it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Aug 27, 2021 18:19:01 GMT
I do. It's pointless. Asari would not CARE what they were referred to. If Asari don't care, why do you? Because I like consistency in lore? False. Salarians have neither, and are still divided into "male" and "female". ALL asari care capable of bearing children via parthenogenesis. Therefore, "sperm and egg" or "tab a and slot b" are meaningless distinctions to them. Liara even says in ME1 "I am not precisely a woman" I don't think I have the time or the crayons to really make this clear to you, but I was speaking in general form. "Boobs and vag", as you so crudely put it earlier. Heck even in Me2, we heard a human, turian, and salarian all comment how asari resemble the females of thier respective species to them (though I suppose that is in some doubt, canonically) Point being, they BROADLY resemble humanoid females, making it easier to to reflecively use female pronouns and terminology. But again it is simply a matter of convenience to the user. To the asari, you might as well be saying "florbot" Umm, that got addressed in ME3. the "mother" is the one who gives birth to the child. The "father" donates the DNA for randomization. Kinda like how humans do it, but the biology is somewhat different. [/quote]Would you prefer to be called "florbot" or "grixtliv"? You know what, I'm out. This is a stupid conversation to have anywhere, but especially in a Dragon Age thread.
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