Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 28, 2018 19:08:34 GMT
I want symmetrical mechanics, like a tabletop game.
Give us one ruleset that makes sense within the setting and have it govern EVERYTHING.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 28, 2018 19:17:18 GMT
DA 2 didn't turn the near human-level intelligent Mabari into mindless 'not wolves' like Inquisition did. DA2 turned Mabari into infinitely re-summonable spectral dogs. That's not better. Though it did help with that awful Corypheus fight in Legacy. Gameplay-wise yes. But lore-wise Mabari were still Mabari in that game, not mindless 'not-wolves' we kill by the wagon load. I do miss the Dog as a companion in Origins and Awakening, and I really wish that mods like the Dog Only Extra Companion Slot were part of the vanilla experience.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 28, 2018 19:23:42 GMT
DA2 turned Mabari into infinitely re-summonable spectral dogs. That's not better. Though it did help with that awful Corypheus fight in Legacy. Gameplay-wise yes. But lore-wise Mabari were still Mabari in that game, not mindless 'not-wolves' we kill by the wagon load. I do miss the Dog as a companion in Origins and Awakening, and I really wish that mods like the Dog Only Extra Companion Slot were part of the vanilla experience. I love that mod. Still use it. However, I reject the very idea of gameplay-lore segregation. The rules of the game ARE the physical laws of the world. The characters in DA2 might claim the Mabari are dogs, but the rules of the game prove them wrong.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 28, 2018 19:35:47 GMT
Gameplay-wise yes. But lore-wise Mabari were still Mabari in that game, not mindless 'not-wolves' we kill by the wagon load. I do miss the Dog as a companion in Origins and Awakening, and I really wish that mods like the Dog Only Extra Companion Slot were part of the vanilla experience. I love that mod. Still use it. However, I reject the very idea of gameplay-lore segregation. The rules of the game ARE the physical laws of the world. The characters in DA2 might claim the Mabari are dogs, but the rules of the game prove them wrong. I disagree, there has to gameplay-lore segregation or the universe the game takes place in makes no sense. Why is it that the Warden, Hawke, or the Inquisitor can take an axe or sword to the face during a fight, and then can immediately engage in conversations, or running and jumping around the countryside afterwards? Why is it that bandits can teleport out of the sky in Kirkwall dropping down in waves despite there being no obvious means of such traversal? Why is is that non Grey Warden PCs can fight Darkspawn and be literally sprayed in the face with their corrupted blood, yet only fall sick when the plot demands it? Etc. The Mabari in DA 2 isn't any different than your dog in Origins as far as the setting is concerned; they're both shown to be extremely intelligent, if somewhat playful, canines with a strong grasp on the nuances of human/elf/dwarf/quinari language as well as reading complex emotions. Of course the Mabari of Inquisition don't demonstrate those qualities at all. Gameplay-wise the DA 2 dog is an infinite summon while the Origins dog was a fully fleshed out companion but that doesn't have any real bearing on the lore of the Dragon Age setting (IMO).
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 28, 2018 19:55:56 GMT
I disagree, there has to gameplay-lore segregation or the universe the game takes place in makes no sense. Why is it that the Warden, Hawke, or the Inquisitor can take an axe or sword to the face during a fight, and then can immediately engage in conversations, or running and jumping around the countryside afterwards? Why is it that bandits can teleport out of the sky in Kirkwall dropping down in waves despite there being no obvious means of such traversal? Why is is that non Grey Warden PCs can fight Darkspawn and be literally sprayed in the face with their corrupted blood, yet only fall sick when the plot demands it? Etc. If there's a genuine conflict, that's a problem with the gameplay mechanics (the way NPC hit points and damage worked in DA2 should have rendered war impossible, for example). Most of your examples aren't actual problems. Why can't Hawke get hit with an axe and then have a conversation? The rules allow it. That we don't know how a thing happens doesn't make it impossible. The rules making it impossible is what makes it impossible. What I don't get is how magic worked in DAI. Enemy spellcasters didn't do anything we could do. They should have been using Static Cage in every fight.
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Post by melbella on Sept 29, 2018 1:15:14 GMT
But lore-wise Mabari were still Mabari in that game, not mindless 'not-wolves' we kill by the wagon load. Didn't fight the Dog Lords, didja?
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Post by melbella on Sept 29, 2018 4:20:46 GMT
Not sure I'd call this a wish, per se, but I find it interesting that in 3 games, we've yet to see a single sewer system, which is usually a staple for fantasy RPGs. I can headcanon that Ferelden is too backwater to have such things, and we didn't see much of Val Royeaux at all. But, if we spend a good deal of time in a major Tevinter city like Minrathous, we've got to go sewer diving at least once.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 29, 2018 14:30:37 GMT
Not sure I'd call this a wish, per se, but I find it interesting that in 3 games, we've yet to see a single sewer system, which is usually a staple for fantasy RPGs. I can headcanon that Ferelden is too backwater to have such things, and we didn't see much of Val Royeaux at all. But, if we spend a good deal of time in a major Tevinter city like Minrathous, we've got to go sewer diving at least once. In Calpernia's short story it is mentioned briefly that there are catacomb systems underneath Minrathous and that they are eerie and mysteeeerious. "Some cellars in Minrathous connected to the ancient catacombs carved out of the bedrock beneath the city. No one knew how far they ran. The air that came up from those places smelled old and had its own secrets. Once, while sweeping the wine cellar, little Calpernia found a deep crack in the flagstones between two looming barrels. She could feel air stirring out of it.Putting her small ear against the crack, she heard something echoing from far below—a song, a sob, or a whisper, too distinct to be the wind and too eerie to be human. It lingered in her dreams long after."So I wouldn't be surprised if we dived underneath Minrathous, though I'm not exactly sure what we'd find there. Also - wouldn't Deep Roads be kind of ginormous 'sewer system' equivalent? Maybe they thought that with them present adding sewers would be a bit too much.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 29, 2018 21:20:53 GMT
But lore-wise Mabari were still Mabari in that game, not mindless 'not-wolves' we kill by the wagon load. Didn't fight the Dog Lords, didja? I did fight them. We killed hostile Mabari in Origins too. My point of contention wasn't that we had to fight Mabari, rather that we are not shown how they are more than just simple, mindless enemies that only ever attack us. Origins gave us the dog companion and all the discussions and background on the intelligence of Mabari in general, and DA 2 gave Hawke their personal Mabari, along with passing mentions of Mabari traits. Inquisition, on the other hand, just has them as a wolf variant that we kill for XP. There's none of the nods to them being more than just dumb animals in that game that the previous two gave us; granted the second one only barely managed in that regard but at least it made an effort. Origins/Awakening and DA 2 (as much as it could be as a half finished game) presented a dark fantasy world where human(-like) perceptions are just a small part of a much larger whole. A place where elements of the 'other' and 'alien' existed and had their own motivations & ways of doing things. Whereas Inquisition is a human(-like) world in desperate need of an exterminator. A place wholly devoid of anything different to our perceptions; though thoroughly infested with mindlessly hostile monsters to kill.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 30, 2018 1:21:29 GMT
I think that the spirit of Command in Crestwood, Cole, the Spirit of Faith/the divine, Envy, Nightmare, Solas's friend Wisdom and his many lectures on the subject all do a perfectly good job of conveying the complexities and bizarre nature of spirits.
Cole and The Divine spirit in particular expand upon concepts introduced by The Baroness in Awakening which was very interesting for me.
I also don't think fighting a few mabari without having a pet or a whole conversation about how smart they are some how erases canon about them. Nor do I think they have to reiterate every creature in every game regardless as to whether they add to the story.
Though I'd never object to more info about groups and individuals (hostile or other wise), of course the more you understand something the less alien they usually seem.
This is all pretty YMMV stuff.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 30, 2018 14:56:20 GMT
I think that the spirit of Command in Crestwood, Cole, the Spirit of Faith/the divine, Envy, Nightmare, Solas's friend Wisdom and his many lectures on the subject all do a perfectly good job of conveying the complexities and bizarre nature of spirits. Cole and The Divine spirit in particular expand upon concepts introduced by The Baroness in Awakening which was very interesting for me. I also don't think fighting a few mabari without having a pet or a whole conversation about how smart they are some how erases canon about them. Nor do I think they have to reiterate every creature in every game regardless as to whether they add to the story. Though I'd never object to more info about groups and individuals (hostile or other wise), of course the more you understand something the less alien they usually seem. This is all pretty YMMV stuff. I think a solution to all of this would be if BioWare would give us some of these non-human characters as companions again. Dog, Shale, and Legion were pretty different from the likes of Allistar, Miranda, Jaal or Iron Bull after all. In interacting with these distinctly non-human characters you got a feel for the other side of their respective settings. Shale offered a pronounced detachment and alienated view of the world despite being rather easy to comprehend. Legion offered a unique insight into the Geth, and our dog directly showcased the qualities of the Mabari. I'm not saying that we need to have these exact characters back in any further games, but companions of that caliber would go a long way to de-humanize the settings (IMO).
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Post by melbella on Sept 30, 2018 16:07:32 GMT
Cole was a companion, one you can even make more "alien" at the end of his personal quest.
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 30, 2018 16:13:02 GMT
Too humanized. I get what the nature of the spirit was supposed to be, but even when choosing to make it more spirit-like didn't change it's characterization very much. Personally, I felt Legion, or Shale was better at conveying that 'other' element than Cole was.
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Post by melbella on Sept 30, 2018 16:18:04 GMT
Spirit-Cole is creepy, so it was a big enough change in his character for me. That's why I don't usually pick that route. Plus I know it annoys Solas.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 30, 2018 20:30:17 GMT
The most likely suspect would be an Old God, I'd think. You think it's possible one of them is buried underneath the city? There's two left and one is buried underneath Western Approach, so that leaves one unknown location. Me, however... I suspect that what lies underneath are more Elvhen secrets, and perhaps a big Elvhen ruin. It's quiiiiite possible that Minrathous lays on top of a large Elvhen city, if it isn't a reclaimed Elvhen city itself.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 1, 2018 0:51:19 GMT
You think it's possible one of them is buried underneath the city? There's two left and one is buried underneath Western Approach, so that leaves one unknown location. Me, however... I suspect that what lies underneath are more Elvhen secrets, and perhaps a big Elvhen ruin. It's quiiiiite possible that Minrathous lays on top of a large Elvhen city, if it isn't a reclaimed Elvhen city itself. It'd be pretty interesting if Razikale or Lusacan were underneath Minrathous. What you're saying it possible too, except if it were a reclaimed Elvhen city it would've had to have been pretty much demolished and rebuilt from the ground up, since the architecture would make it obvious. Well, we don't know in what shape the city was when it was encountered by humans. But I don't think it has to be necessarily rebuilt from grounds up - while Tevinter architecture has its own distinct style since DAI (in DAO it was basically suggested to be similar to a point where people couldn't tell a difference), you can still see Elvhen style underneath (there are gothic elements - like high ceilings, rib vaulting or pointed arches), so a lot of it is probably not built from grounds up but merely plastered over or with stuff added on top/built around... Anyway, here's something of a relevant excerpt from an interview with Patrick Weekes:
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Post by Norstaera on Oct 3, 2018 13:28:13 GMT
Plus I know it annoys Solas. Yes! There can never be too many ways to annoy Solas. Didn't Wynne die in a sewer system underneath or around the White Spire? And also where Lambert used the Litany of Adralla against Cole? But some sort of sewer crawl might be fun. Think of the banter possibilities!
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Post by colfoley on Oct 15, 2018 20:54:08 GMT
Been thinking on something. So what I want is to not really have the 'attribute points' anymore (dex. Cunning. Etc.) I find them redundant with Dragon Age Inquisition and frankly confusing and weirdly applied. But I still want to level up the associated stats. So maybe...training quests or trainers you can spend money on, like Skyrim.
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Post by LukeBarrett on Oct 15, 2018 21:11:27 GMT
Been thinking on something. So what I want is to not really have the 'attribute points' anymore (dex. Cunning. Etc.) I find them redundant with Dragon Age Inquisition and frankly confusing and weirdly applied. But I still want to level up the associated stats. So maybe...training quests or trainers you can spend money on, like Skyrim. What if they were less like Inquisition and more like DnD or some other game where they did something quite impactful (and understandable) to your character?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 15, 2018 21:44:59 GMT
Been thinking on something. So what I want is to not really have the 'attribute points' anymore (dex. Cunning. Etc.) I find them redundant with Dragon Age Inquisition and frankly confusing and weirdly applied. But I still want to level up the associated stats. So maybe...training quests or trainers you can spend money on, like Skyrim. What if they were less like Inquisition and more like DnD or some other game where they did something quite impactful (and understandable) to your character? Well in theory more impact is always nice but sadly I have to have the game in front of me to judge it properly. (Also never played DnD so afraid I don't know those systems.)
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Post by Hrungr on Oct 16, 2018 0:08:18 GMT
Been thinking on something. So what I want is to not really have the 'attribute points' anymore (dex. Cunning. Etc.) I find them redundant with Dragon Age Inquisition and frankly confusing and weirdly applied. But I still want to level up the associated stats. So maybe...training quests or trainers you can spend money on, like Skyrim. What if they were less like Inquisition and more like DnD or some other game where they did something quite impactful (and understandable) to your character? Interesting... Of course, that raises a host of other questions (which probably can't be answered). Like whether we have any ability to assign AS to our liking? If so, are valid builds outside the norm (Dex or Cha-based pirate-y Warriors, Str-based Mages for better weapons/armor, etc.)? DnD style modifiers to weapon types (light/heavy weapons)? Stats impacting RP elements (Charming/Intimidating)? Stats opening up other gameplay options?
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Post by andydandymandy on Oct 16, 2018 0:58:01 GMT
In Dragon Age Origins it felt like my stats mattered. If I had my dex high enough my characters would occasionally block an attack with their weapon or dodge during combat. I didn't really see this in DA2 or DAI.
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Post by phoray on Oct 16, 2018 1:43:03 GMT
I was super into assigning points in DAO and DA2. DAI took them away, never did really figure out where they went. See references to them on weapons sometimes but it pretty much fell off my radar entirely. So I interact and enjoy interacting with them the first two games and just ignore anything strategic whatsoever on DAI. All that seems to matter in DAI is just having better weapons and armor.
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Post by melbella on Oct 16, 2018 3:38:56 GMT
In Dragon Age Origins it felt like my stats mattered. If I had my dex high enough my characters would occasionally block an attack with their weapon or dodge during combat. I didn't really see this in DA2 or DAI.
Not to mention the special dialogues available with a high Cunning stat.
I didn't like how the stats were paired with abilities in DAI. I ended up having to take powers I didn't want because that was the only way to improve the stat I wanted to improve. Not sure the reasoning behind it. It's like MEA pairing eyebrow shape with skin color, or whatever the unrelated thing is it's attached to.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 16, 2018 3:59:15 GMT
I was super into assigning points in DAO and DA2. DAI took them away, never did really figure out where they went. See references to them on weapons sometimes but it pretty much fell off my radar entirely. So I interact and enjoy interacting with them the first two games and just ignore anything strategic whatsoever on DAI. All that seems to matter in DAI is just having better weapons and armor. More like insanely good weapons and armor if you are doing the crafting right.
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