copper
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Feb 12, 2018 2:20:34 GMT
I've done Josephine's romance, and while I never saw anything to indicate she and the inquisitor were ever physically intimate, I also never encountered anything saying they never were. That's the problem with ambiguity, it can go both ways. Myself, I would have actually preferred if Josephine flat out stated she was asexual/demisexual/wanted to wait until marriage. It would have affirmed the character's beliefs and agency, and given players a new kind romance. But since it's ambiguous, I don't count her. Also, like I said earlier I've known people who were good friends that hugged and cuddled and held hands for fun and comfort, but still had sexual desires for other people. If you can see how Josephine's romance could be interpreted as asexual, then why are you confused about how a non sexual romance would be different than friendship? I see why you don't count her romance as asexual, but an asexual romance wouldn't need to be a whole lot different than hers.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2018 2:23:19 GMT
It would be different because the two characters would still have feelings for each other that goes beyond friendship and into romantic love but for whatever reason doesn't involve sex. I'll use a couple romances Bioware themselves have already done that captures this. First I'll use Bastila as an example since her romance is a prime example of a non-sexual one since that's exactly what it is
Bastila and Revan's relationship in KOTOR was sexual for the tone of classic Star Wars, and George Lucas himself said that in SW "a kissing scene is a sex scene". Though it did strike me odd as to why Bioware didn't film Revan and Bastila's kissing, did they not like the animation? I disagree with that. The two have one kiss, then Bastila says they shouldn't have done that, they have couple more lines, and then she leaves. You'll have to find me that quote of his since I've never heard it before. And you are correct, Bioware made a kissing animation, but the technology wasn't there yet and it looked terrible so they went with the fade to black we see in the game instead. I know. I'm not saying the only reason that the romance should be nonsexual is because of sexual orientation, though that would be nice. Plus I just used that romance as an example of how you they can show it is that kind of romance. Hence both copper and I saying that do something similar to Josephine's romance, but have a bit that explicitly expresses there is no sex involved in the relationship for whatever reason. Again, using her romance as an example of how you can show that there are still romantic feelings involved thus not just a friendship like you were asking for.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 12, 2018 2:37:58 GMT
Bastila and Revan's relationship in KOTOR was sexual for the tone of classic Star Wars, and George Lucas himself said that in SW "a kissing scene is a sex scene". Though it did strike me odd as to why Bioware didn't film Revan and Bastila's kissing, did they not like the animation? I disagree with that. The two have one kiss, then Bastila says they shouldn't have done that, they have couple more lines, and then she leaves. You'll have to find me that quote of his since I've never heard it before. And you are correct, Bioware made a kissing animation, but the technology wasn't there yet and it looked terrible so they went with the fade to black we see in the game instead. I know. I'm not saying the only reason that the romance should be nonsexual is because of sexual orientation, though that would be nice. Plus I just used that romance as an example of how you they can show it is that kind of romance. Hence both copper and I saying that do something similar to Josephine's romance, but have a bit that explicitly expresses there is no sex involved in the relationship for whatever reason. Again, using her romance as an example of how you can show that there are still romantic feelings involved thus not just a friendship like you were asking for. Chalk it up to personal experiences; I've witnessed interactions between friends that I initially assumed were romantic, but later found out weren't, as well others assuming I had desires for women who were just friends. Granted, it's not the friends or couples' fault if someone else misreads their relationship, but for the purpose of player agency, character devolpment and narrative cohesion, I'd like an ace/demi romance interaction to be different from friendship. A little less ambiguity and a little more absolution would be nice.
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melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 8,209 Likes: 25,397
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Post by melbella on Feb 12, 2018 2:50:04 GMT
As long as I don't get ninja-minced a la Leliana or Alistair, I'll be happy with whatever they come up with. I might also want them to do away with soft locks, to make switching from one romance to another, or running some concurrently for most of the game before picking, easier to do. Or maybe just have a break up option available whenever you go talk to them?
I liked that in MEA I could go almost all the way to the end of the game without having to settle on either Liam or Reyes. It made replaying for the differences not so onorous and time-consuming.
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Post by phoray on Feb 12, 2018 3:02:20 GMT
. I might also want them to do away with soft locks, to make switching from one romance to another, or running some concurrently for most of the game before picking, easier to do. Or maybe just have a break up option available whenever you go talk to them? yeah, I have yet to run across anything that explains their move to soft locks. I can only guess they didn't want to have to create Jealousy Dialogue. So by soft locking, you're always being a serial monogamist and never cheating. But I liked SO MUCH that people noticed who you were banging, that it was more than one person. Although one Possessive Jealous as Fuq insulting Anders is enough for the series, so not THAT much jealousy dialogue is needed to make me happy on this front. And definitely a break up any time option needs to come back. I was many hours into a Cassandra hard lock when she was a total shit at the Arbor Wilds and I was stuck with her for the rest of the game unless I wanted to reload to a prior save 10-20 hours before.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2018 3:18:11 GMT
Chalk it up to personal experiences; I've witnessed interactions between friends that I initially assumed were romantic, but later found out weren't, as well others assuming I had desires for women who were just friends. Granted, it's not the friends or couples' fault if someone else misreads their relationship, but for the purpose of player agency, character devolpment and narrative cohesion, I'd like an ace/demi romance interaction to be different from friendship. A little less ambiguity and a little more absolution would be nice. Agreed. Bioware has done a good job so far in getting close so I know they can do it, now they just need to take that extra step to take it to absolution.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 12, 2018 3:25:40 GMT
I like that in DAI the herald/Inquisitor can tell Sera to get lost at anytime in the game. I like to see that return for the next game, but include all companions, or at least more than one, for the main character to tell them to get lost.
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coldsteelblue
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
PSN: coldsteelblue
Posts: 690 Likes: 1,033
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by coldsteelblue on Feb 12, 2018 11:05:12 GMT
I'd like to see a return to being able to run around in only my pants, it's silly fun, especially fighting a boss in just your undies, wonder why it was taken out?
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,842 Likes: 7,110
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 12, 2018 12:34:48 GMT
As far as romances go - please please get rid of "approval" and similar mechanics, or at least greatly limit its influence on romances. How much I approve of someone's decisions in life has little to no effect on how attractive I find them, and getting rid of approval would finally remove that "yes-man" feeling from DA romances. Just add optional "small talk" dialogue that lets you get to know your companions better and track something like "attraction" instead based on these talks. In extreme cases - like murdering a bunch of innocents - approval should still affect a romance, but it definitely shouldn't be the main mechanic.
Also - and I know this is a pipe dream and won't happen, and many people won't like it - I would love for the possibility to fail the main story. Not "you died in combat, reload", but "you made too many wrong decisions, the bad guys won". If victory is inevitable, it doesn't mean all that much. I miss games like Wing Commander III, which could end with either a bunch of shaken Kilrathi signing a peace treaty with the Terran Confederation, or a last look at Earth with Kilrathi fighters swarming the skies.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 12, 2018 14:57:28 GMT
As far as romances go - please please get rid of "approval" and similar mechanics, or at least greatly limit its influence on romances. How much I approve of someone's decisions in life has little to no effect on how attractive I find them, and getting rid of approval would finally remove that "yes-man" feeling from DA romances. Just add optional "small talk" dialogue that lets you get to know your companions better and track something like "attraction" instead based on these talks. In extreme cases - like murdering a bunch of innocents - approval should still affect a romance, but it definitely shouldn't be the main mechanic. I get what you're saying but I disagree. I can think someone is hot initially, but if I find out they're a white supremacist or slaughter puppies in their spare time then I'll find them repulsive and won't want to flirt, much less touch them or maintain any kind of relationship with them.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,842 Likes: 7,110
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Clearance Level Ultra
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 12, 2018 15:22:18 GMT
As far as romances go - please please get rid of "approval" and similar mechanics, or at least greatly limit its influence on romances. How much I approve of someone's decisions in life has little to no effect on how attractive I find them, and getting rid of approval would finally remove that "yes-man" feeling from DA romances. Just add optional "small talk" dialogue that lets you get to know your companions better and track something like "attraction" instead based on these talks. In extreme cases - like murdering a bunch of innocents - approval should still affect a romance, but it definitely shouldn't be the main mechanic. I get what you're saying but I disagree. I can think someone is hot initially, but if I find out they're a white supremacist or slaughter puppies in their spare time then I'll find them repulsive and won't want to flirt, much less touch them or maintain any kind of relationship with them. Well, that would be the extreme cases I mentioned... but that's not how the DA series has used the approval mechanic so far. If approval was limited to such severe cases, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it in the first place. But if NPCs disapprove of things like a ill timed or badly worded flirt, a joke they didn't like and so on, often after knowing that person for while when their opinion should be well formed already, then, well... it really doesn't make the game better.
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eskiya
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Posts: 81 Likes: 153
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Post by eskiya on Feb 12, 2018 15:49:11 GMT
I get what you're saying but I disagree. I can think someone is hot initially, but if I find out they're a white supremacist or slaughter puppies in their spare time then I'll find them repulsive and won't want to flirt, much less touch them or maintain any kind of relationship with them. Well, that would be the extreme cases I mentioned... but that's not how the DA series has used the approval mechanic so far. If approval was limited to such severe cases, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it in the first place. But if NPCs disapprove of things like a ill timed or badly worded flirt, a joke they didn't like and so on, often after knowing that person for while when their opinion should be well formed already, then, well... it really doesn't make the game better. So you're saying you'd like things like a badly timed flirt, or joking during something serious have less of an impact on approval? Because really, I can see where one or two poor jokes could be a bit annoying, but too many can add up. In some cases, anyway.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,842 Likes: 7,110
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Clearance Level Ultra
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 12, 2018 16:02:08 GMT
Well, that would be the extreme cases I mentioned... but that's not how the DA series has used the approval mechanic so far. If approval was limited to such severe cases, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it in the first place. But if NPCs disapprove of things like a ill timed or badly worded flirt, a joke they didn't like and so on, often after knowing that person for while when their opinion should be well formed already, then, well... it really doesn't make the game better. So you're saying you'd like things like a badly timed flirt, or joking during something serious have less of an impact on approval? Because really, I can see where one or two poor jokes could be a bit annoying, but too many can add up. In some cases, anyway. I'd say that it depends on the situation. If the first thing you hear from a person is a bad flirt, then yes, that might well affect approval. There's not much of a second chance for first impressions, after all. Also, if they start to pile up over time they should also affect approval, especially if there's few good sides to a given character to make up for that. But if we've known each other for half a year, a bad flirt or two shouldn't change much. Of course, I may just have an easy time saying that since I practically never get bothered with bad flirts. Your mileage may vary. The thing I really don't want, especially in romances, is something like Oghren giving you disapproval for a silly joke in Awakening. After we've been through how much together? The approval system should take into account for how long we've known someone and had time to form an opinion on them. Anyway, thank you for your and vertigomez 's replies... you made me think about a few details.
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Post by phoray on Feb 12, 2018 19:20:45 GMT
Also - and I know this is a pipe dream and won't happen, and many people won't like it - I would love for the possibility to fail the main story. Not "you died in combat, reload", but "you made too many wrong decisions, the bad guys won". If victory is inevitable, it doesn't mean all that much. I miss games like Wing Commander III, which could end with either a bunch of shaken Kilrathi signing a peace treaty with the Terran Confederation, or a last look at Earth with Kilrathi fighters swarming the skies. Interesting mechanic but would cause so many unfinished PTs or at least, extreme metagaming. It's one thing to be like, "oh well, not ALL the companions liked me, will move forward anyway" if you know you're doomed to lose, there is no sense in finishing. Reloading with metagaming would become super common. I don't want to spend 40+ hours and then lose.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 13, 2018 4:15:09 GMT
I would like for there to be a romance that is explicitly non-sexual. Dragon Age hasn’t had a romance like that(don’t count Sebastian since half that is making fun of the concept). Sorry to burst you bubble, but Dragon Age is M for Mature with sexual themes. So sex is expected to be in the game, not E for Everyone or T for Teen. Just putting it out there.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 13, 2018 4:18:50 GMT
I would like for there to be a romance that is explicitly non-sexual. Dragon Age hasn’t had a romance like that(don’t count Sebastian since half that is making fun of the concept). Sorry to burst you bubble, but Dragon Age is M for Mature with sexual themes. So sex is expected to be in the game, not E for Everyone or T for Teen. Just putting it out there.
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Post by phoray on Feb 13, 2018 4:26:30 GMT
I would like for there to be a romance that is explicitly non-sexual. Dragon Age hasn’t had a romance like that(don’t count Sebastian since half that is making fun of the concept). Sorry to burst you bubble, but Dragon Age is M for Mature with sexual themes. So sex is expected to be in the game, not E for Everyone or T for Teen. Just putting it out there. She is not asking for there not to be sex in the game. She's just hoping that ONE of the 4-9 romances in the next game be EXPLICITLY ASEXUAL. Geez, cloud.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 13, 2018 6:16:38 GMT
Sorry to burst you bubble, but Dragon Age is M for Mature with sexual themes. So sex is expected to be in the game, not E for Everyone or T for Teen. Just putting it out there. She is not asking for there not to be sex in the game. She's just hoping that ONE of the 4-9 romances in the next game be EXPLICITLY ASEXUAL. Geez, cloud. I know I know. I just can't resist. I couldn't resist. 😛
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Feb 13, 2018 12:53:36 GMT
I like that in DAI the herald/Inquisitor can tell Sera to get lost at anytime in the game. I like to see that return for the next game, but include all companions, or at least more than one, for the main character to tell them to get lost.
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melbella
N7
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 8,209 Likes: 25,397
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
8,209
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Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Feb 13, 2018 13:45:53 GMT
No "combat mode." I want to be able to move at the same speed (or faster) in combat than out. And unless I am perceived while in stealth, it should never ever EVER trigger combat mode until I strike.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,092 Likes: 49,939
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Post by Iakus on Feb 13, 2018 14:16:31 GMT
I get what you're saying but I disagree. I can think someone is hot initially, but if I find out they're a white supremacist or slaughter puppies in their spare time then I'll find them repulsive and won't want to flirt, much less touch them or maintain any kind of relationship with them. Well, that would be the extreme cases I mentioned... but that's not how the DA series has used the approval mechanic so far. If approval was limited to such severe cases, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it in the first place. But if NPCs disapprove of things like a ill timed or badly worded flirt, a joke they didn't like and so on, often after knowing that person for while when their opinion should be well formed already, then, well... it really doesn't make the game better. The approval mechanic had minimal effect on the romances in DAI. Basically, as long as you kept it in the positive range, you were fine.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,092 Likes: 49,939
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Post by Iakus on Feb 13, 2018 14:25:00 GMT
]I've done Josephine's romance, and while I never saw anything to indicate she and the inquisitor were ever physically intimate, I also never encountered anything saying they never were. That's the problem with ambiguity, it can go both ways. Myself, I would have actually preferred if Josephine flat out stated she was asexual/demisexual/wanted to wait until marriage. It would have affirmed the character's beliefs and agency, and given players a new kind romance. But since it's ambiguous, I don't count her. Also, like I said earlier I've known people who were good friends that hugged and cuddled and held hands for fun and comfort, but still had sexual desires for other people. I think that's the STRENGTH of ambiguity. I mean, let's face it, you can only fit so many romances in a game. And everyone has their own idea what constitutes a "good romance". So the best (or at least, the most efficient) way to handle them would be to provide an outline and let the players fill in the details. So for one player, when Josephine says she and the Inquisitor "have grown close" one player can interpret that as "they're totally doing it, they're just being discrete". Another can just as easily and accurately say "No, they're in love, but they're keeping it asexual". And a third can say "They're just waiting until they get married, or the crisis is passed, or the time is otherwise right forthem" No one is wrong. It's all in how you interpret things.
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Post by phoray on Feb 13, 2018 14:29:50 GMT
And unless I am perceived while in stealth, it should never ever EVER trigger combat mode until I strike. I second this sentiment, although I remember this happening more in MEA than DAI. LukeBarrett
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 13, 2018 14:47:52 GMT
]I've done Josephine's romance, and while I never saw anything to indicate she and the inquisitor were ever physically intimate, I also never encountered anything saying they never were. That's the problem with ambiguity, it can go both ways. Myself, I would have actually preferred if Josephine flat out stated she was asexual/demisexual/wanted to wait until marriage. It would have affirmed the character's beliefs and agency, and given players a new kind romance. But since it's ambiguous, I don't count her. Also, like I said earlier I've known people who were good friends that hugged and cuddled and held hands for fun and comfort, but still had sexual desires for other people. I think that's the STRENGTH of ambiguity. I mean, let's face it, you can only fit so many romances in a game. And everyone has their own idea what constitutes a "good romance". So the best (or at least, the most efficient) way to handle them would be to provide an outline and let the players fill in the details. So for one player, when Josephine says she and the Inquisitor "have grown close" one player can interpret that as "they're totally doing it, they're just being discrete". Another can just as easily and accurately say "No, they're in love, but they're keeping it asexual". And a third can say "They're just waiting until they get married, or the crisis is passed, or the time is otherwise right forthem" No one is wrong. It's all in how you interpret things. I consider it wrong in that:
-It can allow the writer to be lazy, "just let the audience's head canon finish their character development".
- The character has less agency in their own personal will and beliefs, bowing to player entitlement.
- Less specific representation for asexuals.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,092 Likes: 49,939
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Post by Iakus on Feb 13, 2018 15:18:06 GMT
I think that's the STRENGTH of ambiguity. I mean, let's face it, you can only fit so many romances in a game. And everyone has their own idea what constitutes a "good romance". So the best (or at least, the most efficient) way to handle them would be to provide an outline and let the players fill in the details. So for one player, when Josephine says she and the Inquisitor "have grown close" one player can interpret that as "they're totally doing it, they're just being discrete". Another can just as easily and accurately say "No, they're in love, but they're keeping it asexual". And a third can say "They're just waiting until they get married, or the crisis is passed, or the time is otherwise right forthem" No one is wrong. It's all in how you interpret things. I consider it wrong in that:
-It can allow the writer to be lazy, "just let the audience's head canon finish their character development".
- The character has less agency in their own personal will and beliefs, bowing to player entitlement.
- Less specific representation for asexuals.
-I think it would take more skill on the part of the writer, not less. To be able to interpret a character's actions in multiple different ways and each be "correct". It's why the most interesting antagonists are the morally ambiguous ones whom, in a different light, might have been the heroes. And in any case, I consider RPGs with player agency to be something of a collaborative storytelling effort anyway. -Which character are you referring to? Because the player character is the avatar of the player. If you mean the specific LI, that is certainly one factor to consider. But where does one draw the line that defines where "player entitlement" begins and ends? - Representation is all fine and good. But at some point you have to triage just how many places you can place the zots. Believe me, I used to be a lot more hard-line about this myself. In a perfect world, you could hand-craft a romance for every specific taste and play it out to individual specifications. But we can't. At best we MIGHT get 4-6 in a given game. With a couple more added when they get an extra year and more zots to put into the game. At some point, specificity has to break down to something that is more generally appealing. It is by no means perfect. But budgets are limited.
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