helios969
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on May 19, 2018 21:28:27 GMT
About Kosta. He's a troublemaker. He even mentions he's been suspended x number of times when he was on the force. Why they continued to let him stay on the force, I don't know. Requirements must have been lowered for Kosta. I would question Alec as why he chose Liam. Did he not look at his file? I guess it doesn't matter since Alec only wanted them because they were all dreamers. Look how well that worked out. Regardless, what Liam did can't be forgiven. He's a traitor. Its too bad there wasn't an option to remove him form the roster. One of the reasons why I would hand him over to Nexus security is to find out how he was able to get hold of that information and did someone help him get that information. Yeah after that stunt he pulled I wanted to do this. Lol, I would've saved that one for PeeBee. I just wanted the ability to relieve him of duty.
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Post by colfoley on May 19, 2018 23:28:21 GMT
Everytime I think of the argument 'Ryder can't be a renegade' I think of this scene. And its a pretty good scene to boot. Also Jaal's "Unimpressed" about the "Hold me" comment gave me a very good chuckle. Gah maybe one day I will actually play this game again. This just looks like an adult trying to reason with an obstinate child, to me. It's a cool scene, but should've optionally ended in Liam's reassignment. Scott says, "I'm not having it... I can't trust this... etc...", but then allows Liam to stay. Nothing really changes, thus blunting Ryder's perceived authority and any significant consequences from the scene. It's like bad parenting: Yell and lecture, but never take action or stand your ground, and your kid will be a spoiled asshole. So essentially create a resource iern (especially theoretically down the road in a sequel) in a game that was already strapped for resources and time when only a minority of players likely would have used the option? Sure it would have been nice option but the facts of the scene do not change. Ryder came down on Liam. Hard. And if you really ly want to excercise your roleplaying authority and 'relieve him of duty', nothing is stopping you. You do not have to use hi, talk to him, from there it would be easy to roleplay you restrict him from certain areas of the ship...like I did with Liara and Jack during the MET. Sure the game might not be able to fully reflect these choices but then a game can't reflect every single choice you may or may not want to make during a game. And this choice is renegade, choosing to keep a woman who...did not technically do anything wrong...under house arrest is renegade, laying into Liam is renegade. Besides its not like Liam learned nothing from this. It was clear from the rest of the game that he did learn from Ryder's actions and from doing...this.
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Post by Element Zero on May 19, 2018 23:28:25 GMT
Jaal: "There's a peace in knowing that although the universe is beyond your understanding, it doesn't need your understanding to function." I like Jaal. He always seems like the grown-up of the group (with Drack being the old man, and Lexi generally out of sight). It must be because he's a ripe old 27 yo.
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Post by Element Zero on May 19, 2018 23:33:39 GMT
This just looks like an adult trying to reason with an obstinate child, to me. It's a cool scene, but should've optionally ended in Liam's reassignment. Scott says, "I'm not having it... I can't trust this... etc...", but then allows Liam to stay. Nothing really changes, thus blunting Ryder's perceived authority and any significant consequences from the scene. It's like bad parenting: Yell and lecture, but never take action or stand your ground, and your kid will be a spoiled asshole. So essentially create a resource iern (especially theoretically down the road in a sequel) in a game that was already strapped for resources and time when only a minority of players likely would have used the option? Sure it would have been nice option but the facts of the scene do not change. Ryder came down on Liam. Hard. And if you really ly want to excercise your roleplaying authority and 'relieve him of duty', nothing is stopping you. You do not have to use hi, talk to him, from there it would be easy to roleplay you restrict him from certain areas of the ship...like I did with Liara and Jack during the MET. Sure the game might not be able to fully reflect these choices but then a game can't reflect every single choice you may or may not want to make during a game. And this choice is renegade, choosing to keep a woman who...did not technically do anything wrong...under house arrest is renegade, laying into Liam is renegade. Besides its not like Liam learned nothing from this. It was clear from the rest of the game that he did learn from Ryder's actions and from doing...this. Meh. We'll never agree on the RP options afforded Ryder's player. You like them; I find them lacking, though I can still enjoy Ryder's story. As to creating a character that cannot be dumped, I'd suggest they not create such a polarizing character if he or she cannot be dumped. When I became infuriated by Sera, I could boot her if I chose. What Liam does is less obnoxious but actually far more dangerous. If I can't react accordingly, maybe he shouldn't have been written to take such an infuriating action. Maybe it would be in everyone's best interests if Lukas reined in his polarizing characters.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 19, 2018 23:47:50 GMT
Jaal: "There's a peace in knowing that although the universe is beyond your understanding, it doesn't need your understanding to function." I like Jaal. He always seems like the grown-up of the group (with Drack being the old man, and Lexi generally out of sight). It must be because he's a ripe old 27 yo. Do we know the ages of the Tempest crew? I know Drack is about 1400 years old, Lexi is 275, and PeeBee is "a hundred and change" but I can't recall learning the ages of the others.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on May 20, 2018 0:32:52 GMT
I don't think I really got mad at Liam for this. By this time we had a angaran embassy on the nexus and civilians who got booted off of Aya. It was stupid but also it didn't feel like it really increased the risk all together that much unless we were holding the angara on the nexus captive or something.
That being said like contagion my main beef was you didn't have an option to force a we tell the nexus now then we rescue your friends/grab the contiguous person. Secrets to save face wasn't what I wanted my ryders style to be.
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Post by Element Zero on May 20, 2018 1:00:51 GMT
I like Jaal. He always seems like the grown-up of the group (with Drack being the old man, and Lexi generally out of sight). It must be because he's a ripe old 27 yo. Do we know the ages of the Tempest crew? I know Drack is about 1400 years old, Lexi is 275, and PeeBee is "a hundred and change" but I can't recall learning the ages of the others. There's a bit of banter in which Jaal says he's about 27yo by our method of counting. I don't think anyone else's is confirmed, though writers confirmed Cora as "mid-20s". I don't recall her age being nailed down in MEA: Initiation, either. I kind of missed those small touches in this game. I can tell you Shepard's DOB is April 11, 2154. I can tell you other dates, too. In MEA, everything is left so vague. I like my detailed layers of lore. It adds to my immersion (which probably makes me a dork ).
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Post by colfoley on May 20, 2018 1:28:36 GMT
So essentially create a resource iern (especially theoretically down the road in a sequel) in a game that was already strapped for resources and time when only a minority of players likely would have used the option? Sure it would have been nice option but the facts of the scene do not change. Ryder came down on Liam. Hard. And if you really ly want to excercise your roleplaying authority and 'relieve him of duty', nothing is stopping you. You do not have to use hi, talk to him, from there it would be easy to roleplay you restrict him from certain areas of the ship...like I did with Liara and Jack during the MET. Sure the game might not be able to fully reflect these choices but then a game can't reflect every single choice you may or may not want to make during a game. And this choice is renegade, choosing to keep a woman who...did not technically do anything wrong...under house arrest is renegade, laying into Liam is renegade. Besides its not like Liam learned nothing from this. It was clear from the rest of the game that he did learn from Ryder's actions and from doing...this. Meh. We'll never agree on the RP options afforded Ryder's player. You like them; I find them lacking, though I can still enjoy Ryder's story. As to creating a character that cannot be dumped, I'd suggest they not create such a polarizing character if he or she cannot be dumped. When I became infuriated by Sera, I could boot her if I chose. What Liam does is less obnoxious but actually far more dangerous. If I can't react accordingly, maybe he shouldn't have been written to take such an infuriating action. Maybe it would be in everyone's best interests if Lukas reined in his polarizing characters. This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing just a friendly chat between friends. Something else I wanted to mention (but forgot) A lot of the times practical considerations makes it hard to relieve someone of their post and put them on the beach. Even if you got rid of Liam he likely would have to be replaced by someone...and this brings up the question of who? I can't think of anyone. Plus it would have been a waste considering Liam did learn from his mistakes, if you put him on the beach you would not have had the opprotunity to learn, grow, and become an effective member of the squad. A lot of people seem to want to go for the extreme solution when a simple reprimand usually does, and did in this case, actually work out. Don't throw a resource away simply because he is 'annoying.' The other thing that bothers me is that people claim that the MET was some paragon (heh heh) of RPing virtue when it simply wasn't. Yes Shepard could kill their squadmates in ME 1 but neither ME 2 or ME 3 gave you any options to intentionally kill or remove your companions. Hell I couldn't even get rid of Liara...as much as I wanted to.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on May 20, 2018 1:41:34 GMT
It's pretty easy to intentionally kill squadmates in ME2 on the suicide mission. Just have to plan ahead. Also, you don't have to recruit everyone since only 8 (of 10, later 12 with the two add-ons) are required for the end mission to trigger. The only optional squaddies in 1 are Garrus and Wrex (but you have to have one of them, I think?) and in 3 only the VS after the coup is optional, as is Javik. We're stuck with everyone else, unless Tali/Garrus died in 2. Still, playing ME3 with only EDI, James, and Liara is not my idea of fun.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2018 1:58:13 GMT
Something else I wanted to mention (but forgot) A lot of the times practical considerations makes it hard to relieve someone of their post and put them on the beach. Even if you got rid of Liam he likely would have to be replaced by someone...and this brings up the question of who? Why would he have to be replaced? So its ok to give vital information to some unknown person(s) as long as he/she learns from their mistake? Nothing extreme about turning him over to Nexus security. He needs to be questioned to find out how he got access to that information and if he had anyone help him get that information. I can kill Zaeed in ME2 during his loyalty mission. I can kill A/K during the coup. I can kill Mordin if I don't cure the genophage. Not only could Shepard kill Wrex in ME1, but can kill him in ME3.
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Post by Element Zero on May 20, 2018 2:03:04 GMT
Meh. We'll never agree on the RP options afforded Ryder's player. You like them; I find them lacking, though I can still enjoy Ryder's story. As to creating a character that cannot be dumped, I'd suggest they not create such a polarizing character if he or she cannot be dumped. When I became infuriated by Sera, I could boot her if I chose. What Liam does is less obnoxious but actually far more dangerous. If I can't react accordingly, maybe he shouldn't have been written to take such an infuriating action. Maybe it would be in everyone's best interests if Lukas reined in his polarizing characters. This isn't about agreeing or disagreeing just a friendly chat between friends. Something else I wanted to mention (but forgot) A lot of the times practical considerations makes it hard to relieve someone of their post and put them on the beach. Even if you got rid of Liam he likely would have to be replaced by someone...and this brings up the question of who? I can't think of anyone. Plus it would have been a waste considering Liam did learn from his mistakes, if you put him on the beach you would not have had the opprotunity to learn, grow, and become an effective member of the squad. A lot of people seem to want to go for the extreme solution when a simple reprimand usually does, and did in this case, actually work out. Don't throw a resource away simply because he is 'annoying.' The other thing that bothers me is that people claim that the MET was some paragon (heh heh) of RPing virtue when it simply wasn't. Yes Shepard could kill their squadmates in ME 1 but neither ME 2 or ME 3 gave you any options to intentionally kill or remove your companions. Hell I couldn't even get rid of Liara...as much as I wanted to. I certainly hope Liam doesn't compare to Liara, in terms of plot importance and writing, by the time this is over. I don't make those claims about the MET, and they aren't really relevant to my feelings on MEA. I just think that Ryder is a very set protagonist, and nowhere does it chafe more than with Liam and PeeBee. Liam need not be replaced. Ryder set out with only Liam and Cora. Losing Liam would've left us with 5 other squaddies. Losing both Liam and PeeBee would've left us with 4, which is twice our starting figure. We would've parted ways just after their respective LMs, too. There's no better time to allow for it than then. I feel it was a poor idea to write characters whom so many want to punch in the face and then not allow us to do more than scold them.
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Post by colfoley on May 20, 2018 2:10:19 GMT
Something else I wanted to mention (but forgot) A lot of the times practical considerations makes it hard to relieve someone of their post and put them on the beach. Even if you got rid of Liam he likely would have to be replaced by someone...and this brings up the question of who? Why would he have to be replaced? So its ok to give vital information to some unknown person(s) as long as he/she learns from their mistake? Nothing extreme about turning him over to Nexus security. He needs to be questioned to find out how he got access to that information and if he had anyone help him get that information. I can kill Zaeed in ME2 during his loyalty mission. I can kill A/K during the coup. I can kill Mordin if I don't cure the genophage. Not only could Shepard kill Wrex in ME1, but can kill him in ME3. No its not ok, hence the learning from the mistake bit. Yes people should be punished, as was Liam, but sometimes the punishment must fit the person...as well as the crime. Liam was dealt with, he learned, my Ryder and he moved on. Ah I did forget about Zaard my bad.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2018 2:21:06 GMT
No its not ok, hence the learning from the mistake bit. Yes people should be punished, as was Liam, but sometimes the punishment must fit the person...as well as the crime. Liam was dealt with, he learned, my Ryder and he moved on. So saying a few harsh words fixes everything? No. Nexus security would like to talk to him to ask how he was able to get access to that information and to find out if he had help getting that information. Because of what he did, he can't be trusted.
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Post by colfoley on May 20, 2018 3:03:48 GMT
No its not ok, hence the learning from the mistake bit. Yes people should be punished, as was Liam, but sometimes the punishment must fit the person...as well as the crime. Liam was dealt with, he learned, my Ryder and he moved on. So saying a few harsh words fixes everything? No. Nexus security would like to talk to him to ask how he was able to get access to that information and to find out if he had help getting that information. Because of what he did, he can't be trusted. He was a senior member of the Pathfinder team of course he had the codes. The game never insinuated that his having the codes was unusual nor that there was a larger conspiracy involved. To suggest otherwise is really bizzare head canon.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2018 3:14:35 GMT
He was a senior member of the Pathfinder team of course he had the codes. Is there anything in the game that proves that? For what purpose would he need to have the codes? What conspiracy?
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Post by colfoley on May 20, 2018 3:21:23 GMT
He was a senior member of the Pathfinder team of course he had the codes. Is there anything in the game that proves that? For what purpose would he need to have the codes? What conspiracy? Because he's a senior member of the Pathfinder team. Hell everyone on the Tempest probably had the codes except Drak and Jaal.
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2018 3:34:07 GMT
Because he's a senior member of the Pathfinder team. Hell everyone on the Tempest probably had the codes except Drak and Jaal. Did the Nexus give the codes to Ryder? If so, why would he/she give them to Kosta? What purpose would he need to have those? You say Drack and Jaal wouldn't have them, but why would the stowaway and Lexi have them?
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Post by Element Zero on May 20, 2018 4:51:09 GMT
Because he's a senior member of the Pathfinder team. Hell everyone on the Tempest probably had the codes except Drak and Jaal. Did the Nexus give the codes to Ryder? If so, why would he/she give them to Kosta? What purpose would he need to have those? You say Drack and Jaal wouldn't have them, but why would the stowaway and Lexi have them? It depends exactly what these codes are. They really didn't sound like codes Liam would just know about. They didn't even sound like stuff Ryder would know and use off hand. If this info isn't super-secure, if it's stuff the Pathfinder would use regularly, I could see Pathfinder Team members having the info. As members who participate in dangerous work, Fire Team ops, I could see Drack and PeeBee having such info. (Maybe not Jaal, since he's an Angaran Resistance member.) Again, it didn't sound to me like stuff the team or Liam would need to know. If the info were secret, there'd be some questions as to how Liam obtained the info. If it's not really secret, the questions would be limited to "WTF were you thinking?," and "Should we put him back in cryo?".
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Post by colfoley on May 20, 2018 5:06:49 GMT
Did the Nexus give the codes to Ryder? If so, why would he/she give them to Kosta? What purpose would he need to have those? You say Drack and Jaal wouldn't have them, but why would the stowaway and Lexi have them? It depends exactly what these codes are. They really didn't sound like codes Liam would just know about. They didn't even sound like stuff Ryder would know and use off hand. If this info isn't super-secure, if it's stuff the Pathfinder would use regularly, I could see Pathfinder Team members having the info. As members who participate in dangerous work, Fire Team ops, I could see Drack and PeeBee having such info. (Maybe not Jaal, since he's an Angaran Resistance member.) Again, it didn't sound to me like stuff the team or Liam would need to know. If the info were secret, there'd be some questions as to how Liam obtained the info. If it's not really secret, the questions would be limited to "WTF were you thinking?," and "Should we put him back in cryo?". I suspect its more the latter. Its not really 'top' secret but is information which could compromise security if it falls into enemy hands. TTs delivery of "Why would you do that?" is still one of my favorite line deliveries in the game.
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Post by alanc9 on May 20, 2018 6:04:21 GMT
Did the Nexus give the codes to Ryder? If so, why would he/she give them to Kosta? What purpose would he need to have those? You say Drack and Jaal wouldn't have them, but why would the stowaway and Lexi have them? It depends exactly what these codes are. They really didn't sound like codes Liam would just know about. They didn't even sound like stuff Ryder would know and use off hand. If this info isn't super-secure, if it's stuff the Pathfinder would use regularly, I could see Pathfinder Team members having the info. As members who participate in dangerous work, Fire Team ops, I could see Drack and PeeBee having such info. (Maybe not Jaal, since he's an Angaran Resistance member.) Again, it didn't sound to me like stuff the team or Liam would need to know. If the info were secret, there'd be some questions as to how Liam obtained the info. If it's not really secret, the questions would be limited to "WTF were you thinking?," and "Should we put him back in cryo?". I'm not sure dueling headcanon is going to get you guys anywhere.
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Post by Element Zero on May 20, 2018 7:05:11 GMT
It depends exactly what these codes are. They really didn't sound like codes Liam would just know about. They didn't even sound like stuff Ryder would know and use off hand. If this info isn't super-secure, if it's stuff the Pathfinder would use regularly, I could see Pathfinder Team members having the info. As members who participate in dangerous work, Fire Team ops, I could see Drack and PeeBee having such info. (Maybe not Jaal, since he's an Angaran Resistance member.) Again, it didn't sound to me like stuff the team or Liam would need to know. If the info were secret, there'd be some questions as to how Liam obtained the info. If it's not really secret, the questions would be limited to "WTF were you thinking?," and "Should we put him back in cryo?". I'm not sure dueling headcanon is going to get you guys anywhere. We're just talking, not debating.
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Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on May 20, 2018 9:10:02 GMT
So essentially create a resource iern (especially theoretically down the road in a sequel) in a game that was already strapped for resources and time when only a minority of players likely would have used the option? Sure it would have been nice option but the facts of the scene do not change. Ryder came down on Liam. Hard. And if you really ly want to excercise your roleplaying authority and 'relieve him of duty', nothing is stopping you. You do not have to use hi, talk to him, from there it would be easy to roleplay you restrict him from certain areas of the ship...like I did with Liara and Jack during the MET. Sure the game might not be able to fully reflect these choices but then a game can't reflect every single choice you may or may not want to make during a game. And this choice is renegade, choosing to keep a woman who...did not technically do anything wrong...under house arrest is renegade, laying into Liam is renegade. Besides its not like Liam learned nothing from this. It was clear from the rest of the game that he did learn from Ryder's actions and from doing...this. Meh. We'll never agree on the RP options afforded Ryder's player. You like them; I find them lacking, though I can still enjoy Ryder's story. As to creating a character that cannot be dumped, I'd suggest they not create such a polarizing character if he or she cannot be dumped. When I became infuriated by Sera, I could boot her if I chose. What Liam does is less obnoxious but actually far more dangerous. If I can't react accordingly, maybe he shouldn't have been written to take such an infuriating action. Maybe it would be in everyone's best interests if Lukas reined in his polarizing characters. Yep, and I actually love Sera but I can certainly understand why others wouldn't...and it would have been a terrible decision not to allow players to dump her (or simply not recruit her). I've done entire playthroughs without recruiting and/or accepting the offer to join from those companions that weren't plot specific...running with Cassandra, Solas, and Varric. Most playthroughs I only bother to get Dorian and Sera. It would have cost the devs essentially no resources to allow me to say: "Get the F*ck off my ship, Kostas."
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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2018 11:00:14 GMT
Kosta says he was suspended several time when is was on the force. Obviously he didn't learn from his mistake otherwise he wouldn't have been suspended that many times. Now that he's in Andromeda, he decide to give information to unknown person(s). Given his track record, why should I believe he's learned from his mistake?
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griffith82
Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Mar 15, 2017 21:36:52 GMT
March 2017
griffith82
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Post by griffith82 on May 20, 2018 13:35:30 GMT
Yeah after that stunt he pulled I wanted to do this. Lol, I would've saved that one for PeeBee. I just wanted the ability to relieve him of duty. Nah I like Peebee.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 17:52:01 GMT
Meh. We'll never agree on the RP options afforded Ryder's player. You like them; I find them lacking, though I can still enjoy Ryder's story. As to creating a character that cannot be dumped, I'd suggest they not create such a polarizing character if he or she cannot be dumped. When I became infuriated by Sera, I could boot her if I chose. What Liam does is less obnoxious but actually far more dangerous. If I can't react accordingly, maybe he shouldn't have been written to take such an infuriating action. Maybe it would be in everyone's best interests if Lukas reined in his polarizing characters.I'd find it a lot easier to be incensed with Liam if we had more info about exactly what he'd shared with Verand and the implications thereof. "Nav-points and data" doesn't tell me much - and by the time we do this mission, we already have ambassador and civilian exchanges between Aya and the Nexus, Nexus scientists on Havarl, quests for Ryder to retrieve precious angaran relics, and Jaal has full insider's knowledge of everything the Pathfinder is doing. IIRC, Aya already knew about the Ai's previous attempts to settle on Eos, and that the monoliths had recently been activated there - so it's not like they don't have their own recon going. Add to that Ryder's free pass to the angaran Resistance HQ and participation in their activities, the Moshae taking Ryder to Aya's vault, etc. - and it's pretty hard to imagine what kind of info Liam might have shared with Verand that 1) would be a major security breach, 2) they don't already know, and 3) they couldn't have gotten via other means. If the Nexus has proper security protocols (as we understand them) in place and Liam has access to only the info he has a need to know, what would that look like? The Nexus also exiled a lot of its former inhabitants, many of whom have since turned to crime - those people could also potentially have information that could pose a security threat if revealed to an enemy, the former head of Nexus security is sitting on Kadara's throne, and let's not forget Spender's transgressions or Addison's hired mercs. I think the writer's overall goal and spirit of Liam's LM is that Liam screwed up in a way that was intended to demonstrate his willingness to reach out and bet on people. Counting on people was his whole shtick, his response to the post-mission chewing out. In the end, I guess my interpretation of this is that Liam's transgression is foolish, but not so egregious that he'd be convicted of a capital crime. I could agree with the bolded. They clearly knew that Sera would be polarizing; but I'm not sure they're always able to predict how people will react to the characters, especially since a certain amount of that reaction is predicated on individual's assumptions of facts not in evidence. Personally, I tend to embrace a degree of ambiguity in fiction, as it allows me more latitude in how I experience it. ETA: As for Peebee's deal, I don't really see that as being all that different from the multitude of gravity wells Ryder jumps into - you don't know where they'll lead, what you'll encounter when you get there, what you'll find, or how you'll get out. Yet Ryder and squaddies do that again and again throughout the game.
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