legbamel
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Walkin' shoes walkin' back into BSN.
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Post by legbamel on Apr 29, 2022 14:13:24 GMT
I wanted to touch on something Gervaise said way up the page.
"Would just mention that in the ancient lore we discover in DAI and Trespasser the sky/air = Fade and the earth = Waking World. So Skyhold was the "place where the sky was held back", in other words quite possibly either the place or one of many where the Veil was created. Spirits are "our brethren of the air", whilst the Titans are the earth that fights back against the invasion of the Waking World by the beings who belong in the Fade/Sky and their use of magic to alter the world that is meant to be unchanging, as explained by the spirit tutor to the elves: "The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold.""
My immediate reaction was that spirits do not "belong" in the Fade. The Veil is a construct that traps them there, hence demons. If the Veil is removed, that inherent frustration at being sealed away from the physical world is also removed. There will be a chaotic period of adjustment, no doubt, and a lot of demons running amok until they understand that they are free to interact with the world on their own. I imagine a great many of them will be destroyed because they cannot remember or never knew anything but the endless wanting on the other side of the Veil. It's no wonder that so many demons have developed around envy and anger and desire, or given up and turned to sloth.
In the long term, however, the two realms can relearn how to coexist. If this turns out to remove most of the reason for spirits to turn to demons and possess people, what does this mean for the Qun and their treatment of mages?
I'm intrigued by the idea that the things floating around in the Fade were once held up by magic and it will literally all come crashing down when the Veil is removed. This may be part and parcel of what Solas means about the world changing. It would literally be reshaped, not just by releasing the Evenuris and spirits but physically. A lot of people will die, not from some sort of magic boomerang effect sweeping across the landscape but from rocks and trees and buildings and whole cities dropping on their villages.
Are there Ancient elves still living in those places in the Fade or will dropping the Veil just kick them out of Uthenera like a giant alarm clock? Will Solas end up killing many of "his people", thus continuing his track record of horrible unintended consequences? Will the Black City land on Minrathous, wiping out the leadershipof the Vints and the Qun just as we get them to peace talks? Stay tuned to find out!
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 29, 2022 17:43:17 GMT
I'm intrigued by the idea that the things floating around in the Fade were once held up by magic and it will literally all come crashing down when the Veil is removed. We've already touched on this on the previous pages. Take these two images: Both show a landscape that seems to be literally breaking apart but instead of falling it seems to be rising, just as the localised area around the Sacred Ashes site did at the end of DAI when Corypheus opened up a big hole in the Veil again. This is why I was asking why gravity seems to fail without the Veil. Are these images of events that will occur in our present next game or will we be shown them as visions of the past? Now it would seem that the elves constructed a whole network of interconnected paths and pocket realms, of which the Crossroads is a remnant, that somehow existed between the Waking World and the Fade, sort of spanning the two, and held together by magic. When the Veil was formed, it split this in two, leaving the Crossroads attached to the Fade, although not wholly in it and the rest outside, resulting in wholesale destruction. I would mention here that the Crossroads is also slowly breaking down as a mage/elf Inquisitor can sense this when we visit there with Morrigan in DAI. Whether stuff falls up or down when the Veil is removed is anyone's guess. To be honest, I think in the Fade which way is up depends on the person's perspective. Remember how we fall downwards at Adamant, open a rift into the Fade, continue falling for a while, then stop and float back upwards, reaching what should be the ceiling but on touching it, we fall into it and then the viewpoint changes to show we are now standing on solid ground with the opening to the Waking World now above us even though previously, according to what just happened, it should be a hole in the floor we are standing on. So if there is no barrier to the magic of the Fade bleeding into the Waking World, what happens? Now there was a theory some time back that maybe Solas didn't create the Veil but just moved it, possibly back to where it was originally meant to be because the Evanuris had shifted it to allow them to make their magical constructs. This is what antagonised the titans and caused the backlash that initially destroyed their creations, so encouraging the Evanuris, in particular Elgar'nan, to seek revenge. I'm not sure I subscribe to that idea but it is true that the influx of magic through Breach is what disturbed the titan in the Descent and caused a number of earthquakes until Valta succeeded in calming it. So I would imagine that removing the Veil altogether at the very least would disturb every surviving titan, with associated earth movements as a result. Will the Black City land on Minrathous, wiping out the leadershipof the Vints and the Qun just as we get them to peace talks? Stay tuned to find out! This is an interesting one because that would depend on whether the Black City was always tied to the Fade or not. It is also possible that what can be seen in the Fade is just a reflection of the city found elsewhere in the Waking World (or another pocket dimension), so whilst Corypheus and Co thought they ended up in the Fade, in fact making contact with the Fade illusion whisked them away to the actual city. Maryden sings a curious line in her song "Mercy for the Elves". She says: "Arlathan fell, deep beneath the oceans floor". This is very strange. The Dalish lore says that Tevinter sank the city they knew as Arlathan into the earth; something that Tevinter were happy to claim credit for even if, perhaps, it was the action of a titan that was disturbed by the amount of magic in play during their war. What neither side suggests is that Arlathan sank beneath the sea. So was this referring to what happened to the true Arlathan when the Veil was created? In which case, since the Dalish also believe that the Black City is the Eternal City and home to their gods, does the actual location lie beneath, say, the Nocen Sea? It is, after all, a curious shape as though something else once filled it. In which case, Minrathous, which lies on an island, may have originally been an outlying suburb that survived the fall.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 29, 2022 17:58:05 GMT
I feel like Sera butting into a discussion between Solas and Flemeth, but I gotta ask... if the Veil was lifted, would we start seeing spirits and demons strutting about everywhere we go? I think it would depend on the spirit. Even now there are spirits that aren't particularly interested in interacting with the Waking World. According to Cole some even fled when they sensed the presence of the Inquisitor and the Anchor because they didn't want to get sucked through. As for demons, would they still be demons if their desire to experience the real world was no longer prevented? Or would there be an increase in certain types of demon, for example those of fear and despair. If people experienced a massive loss of faith, would that corrupt the faith spirits or would they surge into the world in order to counteract this? Also, would the outflow of magic allow them to take on material forms so it would be much easier to interact with them?
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Post by adonniel on Apr 30, 2022 19:21:27 GMT
If people experienced a massive loss of faith, would that corrupt the faith spirits or would they surge into the world in order to counteract this? Also, would the outflow of magic allow them to take on material forms so it would be much easier to interact with them? I figured out the secret plan: out next protagonist is going to be a Spirit with a worldly corruption meter fluctuating based on our decisions. And our ultimate goal shall lead us to re-entering the Black City.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 1, 2022 8:51:02 GMT
I figured out the secret plan: out next protagonist is going to be a Spirit with a worldly corruption meter fluctuating based on our decisions. I know you are joking but I wouldn't put it past them to do this. Essentially you would be like Cole in Asunder, who doesn't know he is a spirit and has no memory of the events that led him to becoming Cole (until he is reminded of his true nature), except unlike him everyone can see you. Let's face it, that would solve the origins problem and would explain your lack of standing in the world and knowledge about it. However, they just explain it with amnesia. Then at the end someone, probably Solas, reveals the truth to you. How do you deal with it? Do you instantly transform into a demon or a spirit? Or do you embrace your race persona and become a fully functioning material being? And our ultimate goal shall lead us to re-entering the Black City. Where we are confronted by the Dread Wolf in all his glory.
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Post by catcher on May 4, 2022 2:26:57 GMT
As for me, put me in the camp of not wanting to choose either one. Let Qunari and Tevinter be a backdrop just like all the other petty squabbles over little things like who owns what land, who prays (or doesn't) to which god. Let our protagonist quietly go about stopping an ancient elven "god" from taking apart something all of them considered just another part of all reality. Let the griffons preen while we call forth Giants of the Earth to do battle against nightmares from the distant past in battlefields who's names will never be spoken. Let our imprint on Thedas be measured not in queens and princes and rogues who bow to us, but by the fact that they are there to bow to anyone at all. And let us smile, nod, and slip back into the stories heroes tell themselves to sleep at night.
(Sorry, waxing a bit poetic tonight. Seriously though, I would like very much for this to be the anti-Inquisition).
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Post by gervaise21 on May 4, 2022 8:30:56 GMT
(Sorry, waxing a bit poetic tonight. Seriously though, I would like very much for this to be the anti-Inquisition). I'm hopeful this will be the case, particularly with the line "no magic hand". I liked the Hawke story line, with the hero rising from nothing to be Champion of Kirkwall, although I would have preferred the Exalted March ending with me marrying my LI rather than the vague sendoff we had in Trespasser (if not left in the Fade). I didn't like it being narrated by Varric though, so everything had already happened. I don't want to be acting a part in a story but to have the illusion we are becoming the story as we go along, with no guarantee of survival. That was what I felt was so amazing with DAO. First run, having rejected Morrigan's offer I had accepted that my character was probably going to die. Still, it was obvious that Wardens don't tend to die peacefully in their sleep of old age. It came as no surprise when Riorden fell to his death but it did emphasise to me that every step I took across the city was taking me closer to my end. I was thoroughly in that role. Then I was about to embark on that final act of my life when Alistair turned to me and persuaded me to let him do it instead; because he never wanted to be king, he thought he would be a lousy one at that but he could do one last heroic act as king to save his country and his friend. That just blew me away. Nothing has had that emotional impact since, except perhaps the end of ME2 when I had made all the right choices and everyone survived because of it. Even so, that was pure elation. That first time I played DAO was something else. I had been totally immersed in my role and lived it. I'm not sure if that is ever going to happen again.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 10, 2022 12:14:15 GMT
In the long term, however, the two realms can relearn how to coexist. If this turns out to remove most of the reason for spirits to turn to demons and possess people, what does this mean for the Qun and their treatment of mages? Oh, you know how it goes. The powers that be would slightly adjust the narrative and punish those that say it is unnecessary to continue to control mages.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 10, 2022 14:06:59 GMT
This is not complicated: There is nothing worthwhile in the Qun.
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Post by Croatsky on Jun 12, 2022 11:35:34 GMT
Siding with Tevinter seems a much easier choice. Despite being institutionally and societally corrupt, there are however elements to reform Tevinter. Beyond the obvious Dorian's faction, blood magic is still illegal in Tevinter. So while that law is constantly broken and only really enforced against those who are causing too much trouble, it is still there as a precedent to start real enforcement against blood magic use. As well Tevinter Templars could be reformed to become an effective force to enforce imperial laws on mages. Slavery, however, will be a bridge too far to solve. Like in every slavery-based society, it is too attached economically and culturally. Even if you destroy Tevinter Imperium, new countries formed out of it will still likely fight to keep slavery. It will take beyond Dragon Age for Tevinter to phase out slavery, the best that can be done is to prohibit purchasing or acquiring foreign slaves.
As for the Qunari, there is no reforming it. Qunari society can only be broken up and its people choose a new path. But that will be a bloody path no matter what and it will be difficult for people to just abandon Qun ways, at best they'll form Qun 2.0 that will be more liberal on individualism. At worst it will Qun 1.5 and will double down on strict collectivism.
But who knows what will BioWare provide us in DAD, after all looking at DAI and MEA Bioware has been getting better at giving tough choices over good/Paragon vs evil/Renegade choices we had in past. Hopefully BioWare still stop giving us choice to genocide people as "morally grey" option.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 26, 2022 20:38:46 GMT
I want a Helms Deep siege style scenario with Minrathous so very much.
I can picture now in my minds eye a stormy night with solders of the Imperium singing battle songs as Qunari cannons shred through walls and magical defences. Dealing with a bald elf pales in comparison to the idea of seeing a powerful empire and a dying one duking it out. Magic vs Gunpowder.
Make it a damn spectacle Bioware.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 27, 2022 8:14:30 GMT
I can picture now in my minds eye a stormy night with solders of the Imperium singing battle songs as Qunari cannons shred through walls and magical defences. Dealing with a bald elf pales in comparison to the idea of seeing a powerful empire and a dying one duking it out. Magic vs Gunpowder. They could do this but I doubt they will. It ought never to get that far, based off the history between the two nations. Back in the Steel Age, the Qunari made significant gains because of the element of surprise. Tevinter are well aware of the danger they pose now and their spies have been keeping a close watch on developments, so they ought not to have been caught on the hop, although, I'll admit they have set a precedent with Tevinter capitulating without much of a defense on the eastern side, according to Tevinter Nights and the comics. Whilst they have not shown this thus far, it seems likely the reason the Qun seem to have advanced so quickly is Tevinter being undermined from within, not just by in-fighting but Qunari agents. Neutralising the latter threat or aiding an abetting them is far more likely to be the extent of our involvement in the war. That said, they could involve our hero from the beginning by having them caught up in the attack on a city other than Minrathous. So "Helm's Deep" could take place in Vyrantium for example or even a smaller settlement, like Solas. It is rather strange there is a Tevinter city sharing a name with our former ally, particularly when you consider it is a elven word. The Inquisitor also plunged their knife in pretty close to it, so may be our journey will begin there. The Qunari could be trying to take the city for reasons other than mere conquest; Rasaan might think that the name is significant too.
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