TheEmptyRoad
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on Mar 21, 2018 9:49:57 GMT
Tevinter vs. Qunari
Late Roman/Byzantine Empire-esque Magocracy that practices Blood Magic (sure, 'unofficially') and Slavery (VERY officially).
VERSUS
Medieval Communists: secret police, reeducation, atheism, society before the individual in EVERY respect, treatment of mages makes the Templars look positively progressive.
Looking forward to seeing this Grey-on-Grey (or Black-on-Black) morality shitfest of a war in Dragon Age 4.
Discuss!
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davesin
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Post by davesin on Mar 21, 2018 10:52:46 GMT
Oh, I'm looking forward to selling cheese cookies to both sides and get them kill each other over golden cake.    On serious note: I hope we'll get to choose side (or remain neutral) in this conflict. And I hope it won't end in some kind of truce in order to gather forces and defeat Solas. This conflict should be dark and bloody, progresive and more liberal factions within Tevinter and Qun should be persecuted or not get into position where they could do serious changes like Inquisition in southern Thedas. Also, I hope that both protagonist and Solas (at this point main villain - but we'll see) will have doubts. Where Solas should ask: "Is restoring the old world worth it?", protagonist should wonder: "Is this world worth saving?" Being stuck between Qunari and Tevinter and their endless war would work well with it. |
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Post by Catilina on Mar 21, 2018 14:03:54 GMT
Oh, I'm looking forward to selling cheese cookies to both sides and get them kill each other over golden cake.    On serious note: I hope we'll get to choose side (or remain neutral) in this conflict. And I hope it won't end in some kind of truce in order to gather forces and defeat Solas. This conflict should be dark and bloody, progresive and more liberal factions within Tevinter and Qun should be persecuted or not get into position where they could do serious changes like Inquisition in southern Thedas. Also, I hope that both protagonist and Solas (at this point main villain - but we'll see) will have doubts. Where Solas should ask: "Is restoring the old world worth it?", protagonist should wonder: "Is this world worth saving?" Being stuck between Qunari and Tevinter and their endless war would work well with it. It's always a question. The answer is depends on the wiewpoint... Carver: Your whining ranks a little lower than the end of the bloody world. But do go on. And on.
Anders: Is it wrong to want a world worth saving? According to Fenris, the qunari able to win this war (Blade of Mercy dialogue). If this is right, and but we consider it: the magic is so strong, the war's ending only depends on: how much willing the Magisters to sacrifice the world (themselves...) for their victory? I see Tevinter the lesser danger: the magocracy itself, not worse, than the southern feudalism: nobles or mages whatever, privileged people... In Tevinter the corruption is the problem (just as in Orlais!), and the slavery, and the (not public, but existing) acceptance of the human sacrifice. But as I see, Tevinter able to change, at least there are supporters of the changes, according to Dorian, Maevaris, and also Fenris said, there always was magisters, who questioned the system, true, they never succeeded, but the Qun is absolutely wrong, and I don't see, any willing to change. And if Fenris and Sten are right, the Qun is strong, and conqueror. By the way... what about a possible alliance with Solas? |
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 21, 2018 14:28:33 GMT
We haven’t met any Qunari reformers because we really aren’t looking for them. Every time a Qunari says something reasonable, it’s assumed to be a lie or a trap.
We’re like if the Qunari had looked at Petrice’s actions, and concluded that Elthina must secretly be condoning those actions. She’s Petrice’s superior, after all. She must have signed off on it.
And lest we forget, Dorian isn’t all that fired up by the institution of slavery. For all we know, the Lucerni’s chief aim could be to improve life for the marginalized who are already in the upper class... a noble goal, but hardly a sweeping reform of what ails Tevinter.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 21, 2018 15:03:45 GMT
We haven’t met any Qunari reformers because we really aren’t looking for them. Every time a Qunari says something reasonable, it’s assumed to be a lie or a trap. We’re like if the Qunari had looked at Petrice’s actions, and concluded that Elthina must secretly be condoning those actions. She’s Petrice’s superior, after all. She must have signed off on it. And lest we forget, Dorian isn’t all that fired up by the institution of slavery. For all we know, the Lucerni’s chief aim could be to improve life for the marginalized who are already in the upper class... a noble goal, but hardly a sweeping reform of what ails Tevinter. I don't see the Qun reformable, rather must destroy the system. I did never say, that Dorian wants to eliminate the slavery. He not even thought about it. I spoke about the corruption of the blood magic and the corruption of the Magisters, and the reform of the magokracy. A slave rebellion still needs – I don't think, Tevinter would just let the slaves free, that's not how it work. |
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davesin
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Post by davesin on Mar 21, 2018 15:32:53 GMT
1) According to Fenris, the qunari able to win this war (Blade of Mercy dialogue). If this is right, and but we consider it: the magic is so strong, the war's ending only depends on: how much willing the Magisters to sacrifice the world (themselves...) for their victory? 2) I see Tevinter the lesser danger: the magocracy itself, not worse, than the southern feudalism: nobles or mages whatever, privileged people... In Tevinter the corruption is the problem (just as in Orlais!), and the slavery, and the (not public, but existing) acceptance of the human sacrifice. But as I see, Tevinter able to change, at least there are supporters of the changes, according to Dorian, Maevaris, and also Fenris said, there always was magisters, who questioned the system, true, they never suceeded, but the Qun is absolutely wrong, and I don't see, any willing to change. And if Fenris and Sten is right, the Qun is strong, and conqueror. 3) By the way... what about a possible alliance with Solas? 1) This is probably going to be the main reason why people will hate Tevinter in game. I can see the people on top decide some blood magic, demon summoning or playing with thin fabric of Veil is going to pay off well. 2) Oh, I'm on the other side of barricade. I'm really interested about joining Qun. Not because of agreeing with ideology, but I just want to explore this culture we've only heard of through banter with four or five people over three games. Bonus points for protagonist being part of religion/culture/nation Solas totally detests.  3) Ehm, you mean alliance between Solas and protagonist or Solas and Tevinter? The latter leads into wielding idiot ball, the former depends on player's motivations, I guess. |
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simit
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Post by simit on Mar 21, 2018 15:54:23 GMT
Dont think i want to help one side over the other or change them for that matter, think i'd rather see solas succeed with his goal but it doesnt end life blah blah i think it make for a better overall story for more games to come, it just outside a common uniting factor all other possible "changing" scenarios for these factions strike me as stupid an the pc being responsible for eithers downfall is idiotic an cheap, so yeah let solas succeed but not in the way he envisions an make the result so freaking dire the factions need to work together to stop it
The mage v templar wasnt complicated it was just pick a side you thought was right an tevinter v qun should in no way be solved the same way, thats just a hideous thought
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Post by Catilina on Mar 21, 2018 16:31:11 GMT
1) According to Fenris, the qunari able to win this war (Blade of Mercy dialogue). If this is right, and but we consider it: the magic is so strong, the war's ending only depends on: how much willing the Magisters to sacrifice the world (themselves...) for their victory? 2) I see Tevinter the lesser danger: the magocracy itself, not worse, than the southern feudalism: nobles or mages whatever, privileged people... In Tevinter the corruption is the problem (just as in Orlais!), and the slavery, and the (not public, but existing) acceptance of the human sacrifice. But as I see, Tevinter able to change, at least there are supporters of the changes, according to Dorian, Maevaris, and also Fenris said, there always was magisters, who questioned the system, true, they never suceeded, but the Qun is absolutely wrong, and I don't see, any willing to change. And if Fenris and Sten is right, the Qun is strong, and conqueror. 3) By the way... what about a possible alliance with Solas? 1) This is probably going to be the main reason why people will hate Tevinter in game. I can see the people on top decide some blood magic, demon summoning or playing with thin fabric of Veil is going to pay off well. 2) Oh, I'm on the other side of barricade. I'm really interested about joining Qun. Not because of agreeing with ideology, but I just want to explore this culture we've only heard of through banter with four or five people over three games. Bonus points for protagonist being part of religion/culture/nation Solas totally detests. 3) Ehm, you mean alliance between Solas and protagonist or Solas and Tevinter? The latter leads into wielding idiot ball, the former depends on player's motivations, I guess. I see. But I thought bigger thing than a usual little fun with demon-summoning. And we'll see, they're able to resist to the temptation of the magic, or use their "atomic bomb" and risk, the world (and themselves as well!) fall in the chaos. I still don't think, everyone totally idiot and evil in Tevinter. 2. Oh, I want to see the Qunari culture, but interesting about the system, don't means automatically to love with the system. So: I rather would like to play as a qunari, who wants to destroy the system. An escaped qunari, a Tal-Vashot, or a Fog Warrior. (I strongly prefer to play as rebel.) 3. Solas and the protagonist. Solas and Tevinter seems a bullshit indeed. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 21, 2018 17:06:47 GMT
I hope we aren't forced to side and agree/tolerate that side's actions. I'd rather tear both systems down and reformations take place.
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 21, 2018 17:11:25 GMT
Sounds like a bunch of arseholes tbh.
I can't wait.
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Post by Fredward on Mar 21, 2018 19:44:50 GMT
I really got into the mage/templar thing but I don't feel that strong a pull here. While I could see the point(s) of templar supporters there was a fundamental feeling of mages being in the right for me. It's not really there between Tevinter and the qunari for me, they're both moral garbage. Which isn't to say they're exactly the same, they're not, there's just not enough of a discrepancy for me to comfortably fall on one side.
I do fall on Tevinter's side in terms of style tho. There's not even a contest.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 21, 2018 20:41:47 GMT
I hope we aren't forced to side and agree/tolerate that side's actions. I'd rather tear both systems down and reformations take place. Let's blow up the Magisterium and the headquarters of the Triumvirate...! There's no compromise! |
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2018 21:36:49 GMT
I really got into the mage/templar thing but I don't feel that strong a pull here. While I could see the point(s) of templar supporters there was a fundamental feeling of mages being in the right for me. It's not really there between Tevinter and the qunari for me, they're both moral garbage. Which isn't to say they're exactly the same, they're not, there's just not enough of a discrepancy for me to comfortably fall on one side. I do fall on Tevinter's side in terms of style tho. There's not even a contest. That's why I'd find this a more interesting choice if done right. Picking mage was easy, I didn't even have to think about it in or out of character. Picking the lesser of two evils will be harder. |
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Post by brasspetals on Mar 21, 2018 22:41:44 GMT
I'm not 'picking a side' here unless I'm purposely deceiving both sides at once and watching them tear each-other apart as I munch on some popcorn.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 22, 2018 3:43:42 GMT
Not to mention the insurgency and infighting on the islands (sehron?) Is reminiscent of the War on Terror...and all the nastiness implied therein.
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coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Mar 22, 2018 10:00:50 GMT
I just hope the war is actually in the game this time & not just choose a faction to ally with & ok, war's over.
It has great potential & I'd like to actually be part of it this time, for good & especially ill.
I'd also like to see previous companions on both sides & find out how our choices affect them.
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Post by psychomegify on Mar 22, 2018 10:11:52 GMT
Now THIS is a conflict i can get behind. The mage/templar debate was easy to decide on (despite efforts to make it a morally grey issue). But this is something with no real good answer.
Tevinter's rotten to the core. Thirsting for power is something, i feel, has been ingrained into society down to the peasants. After all Fenris' sister sold him out to rise the ranks, because if you had a chance to crawl out of the slums why not take it? Then again we havent seen much about the low class vints so i could be totally wrong.
Then again the qunari has no freedoms, no individuality. Your life is not your own, it belongs to the Qun. Which sounds kinda like a form of slavery to me tbh. Plus ya know, brainwashing. Shows you dont need blood magic to break someones mind.
Anyways im excited. I've always loved the darker story elements in da. Though inquisition wasnt very good at portraying them, even if they were there.
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Post by Walter Black on Mar 23, 2018 0:14:18 GMT
I hope we aren't forced to side and agree/tolerate that side's actions. I'd rather tear both systems down and reformations take place. reformation, sure. But for Bioware to allow players to completely change thousands of years of ingrained cultures, just because we're the protagonist, reeks of lore and immersion breaking, God Mode Sue and Player Entitlement to me. |
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Post by phoray on Mar 23, 2018 0:27:42 GMT
The Mageocracy can be improved by the hundreds (thousands?) of people that want to change it. The way the Qunari run themselves is based off of a religion. The only way that's changing is if some other prophet comes forward to say they've got it all wrong and they'd actually listen. They're more likely to brain wipe the guy just for saying anything. Tevinter treats their slaves better even when they're slitting their throat than the Qun treats their mages. Slaves aren't dehumanized, they're just devalued.
I'm pro Tevinter and anti Qun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 0:29:42 GMT
I'm pro Tevinter and anti Qun. Meh, Tevinters are the lesser evil... |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 1:06:17 GMT
The Mageocracy can be improved by the hundreds (thousands?) of people that want to change it. The way the Qunari run themselves is based off of a religion. The only way that's changing is if some other prophet comes forward to say they've got it all wrong and they'd actually listen. They're more likely to brain wipe the guy just for saying anything. Tevinter treats their slaves better even when they're slitting their throat than the Qun treats their mages. Slaves aren't dehumanized, they're just devalued.
I'm pro Tevinter and anti Qun. I have to disagree with this. How in the world is murdering someone ever better for that person? Tevinter sees their slaves as nothing more than cattle, things to be used for their own desires whatever those may be. That is the definition of dehumanization. There is the example of the magister that murdered a child slave at a party for nothing more than a source of entertainment for their guests. While the Qun treat the mages terribly, they at least feel lots of respect towards those mages for the sacrifice they are giving for the Qun. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 1:07:46 GMT
I hope we aren't forced to side and agree/tolerate that side's actions. I'd rather tear both systems down and reformations take place. reformation, sure. But for Bioware to allow players to completely change thousands of years of ingrained cultures, just because we're the protagonist, reeks of lore and immersion breaking, God Mode Sue and Player Entitlement to me. History has examples of it happening before, so I see no reason why it couldn't happen in the game. |
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Post by phoray on Mar 23, 2018 2:16:10 GMT
How in the world is murdering someone ever better for that person? I'd rather be dead then chained up physically, emotionally, mentally. Maybe Solas said this too, but at least slaves have inside their mind and the quality of how people treat them is on a bell curve. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 3:16:34 GMT
How in the world is murdering someone ever better for that person? I'd rather be dead then chained up physically, emotionally, mentally. Maybe Solas said this too, but at least slaves have inside their mind and the quality of how people treat them is on a bell curve. Tevinter does the exact same thing. Also The Iron Bull says something very similar about those under the Qun, using the example of a baker. I'm not trying to say the Qun is better, just pointing out both are exactly the same when it comes to this. Hence why I want to utterly destroy both institutions. |
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Post by phoray on Mar 23, 2018 3:46:52 GMT
I mean, I hardly want to argue for slavery here. But married people with two kids, who are in debt, can sell themselves into slavery to end that debt. Best case scenario, all their basic needs are met and the family isn't broken up. You continue loving your wife, loving your kids. If you unethical, maybe you even bang that co-slave that works at the main house. Your sexual life is free of your choosing. Whether you have a third kid is of your choosing. Gossiping about how folks in charge aren't that great? You may get a whipping if you're heard, but no one is actually expecting you to stop having opinions just because you're a slave. You have a name. you may even get an education given to you if you don't already have one.
Worst case scenario is blood sacrifice. This is why I mentioned a bell curve. There is the sexual slavery, then there is the "servants are better seen not heard." Too many whippings. Maybe no say about where you live. Bell Curve.
The Qun:
No wives.
No children.
No name.
No choice in job. No choice in education.
It's not that you aren't allowed to show you have emotions, feelings, opinions, and desires. You're actually told that having them at all is dangerous. Dangerous to you, dangerous to society. And if you have them too strongly, you WILL be mind wiped and made into a zombie, an animal, literally incapable of anything but plowing a damn field.
And if you're assigned as a soldier, than ya, you'll also die for a war you may or may not believe in. It's the will of the Qun. That any better than a blood sacrifice?
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