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127
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18,274
Catilina
11,040
August 2016
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:11:13 GMT
The Circles is evil. It's not about the implement: how we can implement well and humane a lifetime imprisonment? The thought to imprison innocents and to kidnap children from their parents, to prohibit the family, love, privacy to them, for a life, is evil. It's can be good, not even the intention. The system allows the abuses, and not only allows but supports that. The Circles should work as the education-research institutes. 1000 years passed... they should just sit, praying and waiting calmly for some miracle? More? Were centuries not enough to wait? The people's mind will never change if nothing happens. How can they gather more trust? And why should? The freedom is not something that should deserve because this never will happen. The freedom is something that they should have, because it's right, not because they deserve. And if they don't have, they must fight for it. This is not a matter of trust. The world must change, and the people must learn to live with it. That so simple. By not blowing up buildings and/or killing innocent people. It's "easy to support freedom until no one to died to achieve it". Many people died in Andraste's and Shartan's war too. Including innocents.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:14:19 GMT
By not blowing up buildings and/or killing innocent people. It's "easy to support freedom until no one to died to achieve it". Many people died in Andraste's and Shartan's war too. Including innocents. Anders said that didn't he? If so then it holds no weight to me. Yeah, and? You don't see me supporting that butchery of innocents either do you? I don't support than in real life, and will not support that in fiction.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:23:50 GMT
It's "easy to support freedom until no one to died to achieve it". Many people died in Andraste's and Shartan's war too. Including innocents. Anders said that didn't he? If so then it holds no weight to me. Yeah, and? You don't see me supporting that butchery of innocents either do you? I don't support than in real life, and will not support that in fiction. Yes. The pacifists shake their head disapprovingly, while the freedom fighters win the battle (or lose), and take the responsibility – for the others, for those pacifists, who absolutely disdain them, but enjoy the freedom, what they got without risks, without any blood on their hand... or it is? This is a big fat hypocrisy. There's not always a peaceful solution. This is a cruel world.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:28:12 GMT
Anders said that didn't he? If so then it holds no weight to me. Yeah, and? You don't see me supporting that butchery of innocents either do you? I don't support than in real life, and will not support that in fiction. Yes. The pacifists shake their head disapprovingly, while the freedom fighters win the battle (or lose), and take the responsibility – for the others, for those pacifists, who absolutely disdain them, but enjoy the freedom, what they got without risks, without any blood on their hand... or it is? This is a big fat hypocrisy. This is a cruel world. No, I support people who fight for freedom...until they kill innocent civilians. At that point they are no longer heroes but instead war criminals.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:29:41 GMT
Yes. The pacifists shake their head disapprovingly, while the freedom fighters win the battle (or lose), and take the responsibility – for the others, for those pacifists, who absolutely disdain them, but enjoy the freedom, what they got without risks, without any blood on their hand... or it is? This is a big fat hypocrisy. This is a cruel world. No, I support people who fight for freedom...until they kill innocent civilians. At that point they are no longer heroes but instead war criminals. And who is the hero, and who is the war criminal? This is the "grey zone", not the Circle system and the slavery and the institutionalized brainwashing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:31:42 GMT
No, I support people who fight for freedom...until they kill innocent civilians. At that point they are no longer heroes but instead war criminals. And who is the hero, and who is the war criminal? Hero: One who doesn't kill innocent people. War Criminal: One who does kill innocent people. Quite an easy distinction really. Not sure why you are confused by it. Unless you think killing innocent people is okay?
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Dec 12, 2024 11:13:26 GMT
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July 2017
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Post by river82 on Mar 25, 2018 23:33:55 GMT
While the mages are certainly free to rail against those who they perceive did them wrong, so are other members of the citizenry. If the mages band together en masse to drag innocent civilians into the battle, then aren't the citizenry also free to rail against those who shed violence against them? Are the mages then not murderers, or deviants, in the eyes of others? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, perspective is a powerful thing. Anders could have targetted the templars with his explosion, but instead he went for a soft target and so I have no respect for him And so the circle of violence goes on, and whoever is right is whoever wins and writes the story.
My main gripe was the inability to stab Anders early on in the game. It's not that the theme isn't a valid one, it is, with powerful connections back to the real world. Unfortunately I've always played Bioware for light escapist fantasy romps, and Anders deserves a cruel and harsh death for turning the franchise in a more ... heavy direction. Boo!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:35:20 GMT
And who is the hero, and who is the war criminal? Hero: One who doesn't kill innocent people. War Criminal: One who does kill innocent people. Quite an easy distinction really. Not sure why you are confused by it. Unless you think killing innocent people is okay? Almost every people, who fight in a war is innocent. And almost everyone involved, even if did nothing, or especially because of did nothing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:36:48 GMT
Hero: One who doesn't kill innocent people. War Criminal: One who does kill innocent people. Quite an easy distinction really. Not sure why you are confused by it. Unless you think killing innocent people is okay? Almost every people, who fight in a war is innocent. And almost everyone involved, even if did nothing, or especially because of did nothing. So you think killing innocent civilians is okay, then? Just trying to make sure I understand your post.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:42:44 GMT
While the mages are certainly free to rail against those who they perceive did them wrong, so are other members of the citizenry. If the mages band together en masse to drag innocent civilians into the battle, then aren't the citizenry also free to rail against those who shed violence against them? Are the mages then not murderers, or deviants, in the eyes of others? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, perspective is a powerful thing. Anders could have targetted the templars with his explosion, but instead he went for a soft target and so I have no respect for him And so the circle of violence goes on, and whoever is right is whoever wins and writes the story. My main gripe was the inability to stab Anders early on in the game. It's not that the theme isn't a valid one, it is, with powerful connections back to the real world. Unfortunately I've always played Bioware for light escapist fantasy romps, and Anders deserves a cruel and harsh death for turning the franchise in a more ... heavy direction. Boo!Soft target? He targeted the main enemy: Elthina. She was the most powerful person in Kirkwall. He would able to kill many Templars (he did it already!), but that wouldn't be that effective... in fact: just would make the situation even worse, without any chance to mages for fighting for themselves. It would a really wasted attack, wasted lives, without any chance to achieve any worthy result. Decimus ignited the Starkhaven Circle, they escaped, but nothing else happened. Anders' action was not a mage-rescue action anymore.
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3,859
Iddy
3,863
August 2016
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Post by Iddy on Mar 25, 2018 23:47:42 GMT
The Circle system is clearly evil, not the "mages". There are no "mages", they're people: good and bad. But the system inherently evil: so to fight against: good. I don't agree with the notion that idea of Circles is inherently a bad one. I agree that they are not implemented well, the system is actually pretty crude and basic, but the idea is no more evil than compulsory school attendance in our real world. Knowing control -is- neccesary for mages, their life depends on it in fact. Most of the problems of Circles might actually stem from the fact that they are being run by religion that is against magic. But those don't get solved by open armed rebellion, that's about as crude way of jump-startimg reforms as Circle implementation itself and unless you are wildly successful in your rebellion (which mages were not) it might leave you worse off, especially when dealing with a problem that's feared by superstitious common folk. How is negotiating with the Chantry an option? All they care about is whether mages are under control, not their happiness.
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Dec 12, 2024 11:13:26 GMT
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river82
5,297
July 2017
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Post by river82 on Mar 25, 2018 23:49:18 GMT
While the mages are certainly free to rail against those who they perceive did them wrong, so are other members of the citizenry. If the mages band together en masse to drag innocent civilians into the battle, then aren't the citizenry also free to rail against those who shed violence against them? Are the mages then not murderers, or deviants, in the eyes of others? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, perspective is a powerful thing. Anders could have targetted the templars with his explosion, but instead he went for a soft target and so I have no respect for him And so the circle of violence goes on, and whoever is right is whoever wins and writes the story. My main gripe was the inability to stab Anders early on in the game. It's not that the theme isn't a valid one, it is, with powerful connections back to the real world. Unfortunately I've always played Bioware for light escapist fantasy romps, and Anders deserves a cruel and harsh death for turning the franchise in a more ... heavy direction. Boo!Soft target? He targeted the main enemy: Elthina. She was the most powerful person in Kirkwall. He would able to kill many Templars (he did it already!), but that wouldn't be that effective... in fact: just would make the situation even worse, without any chance to mages for fighting for themselves. It would a really wasted attack, wasted lives. If Elthina was the most powerful person in Kirkwall she would have been able to control Meredith, but it was painfully obvious this wasn't the case. He used Hawke to deal with the most powerful people in the city (both Meredith and Orsino actually) whereas he dealt a "shocking" blow against some non-combatants that was more designed to shock and act as a symbol then create any real sort of power vacuum. He's a coward
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:49:41 GMT
Almost every people, who fight in a war is innocent. And almost everyone involved, even if did nothing, or especially because of did nothing. So you think killing innocent civilians is okay, then? Just trying to make sure I understand your post. This is a civil war. The Mages in the Circle aren't an army. And Anders didn't attack civil target. Anders attacked the Chantry, what caused the war.
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31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:50:13 GMT
I don't agree with the notion that idea of Circles is inherently a bad one. I agree that they are not implemented well, the system is actually pretty crude and basic, but the idea is no more evil than compulsory school attendance in our real world. Knowing control -is- neccesary for mages, their life depends on it in fact. Most of the problems of Circles might actually stem from the fact that they are being run by religion that is against magic. But those don't get solved by open armed rebellion, that's about as crude way of jump-startimg reforms as Circle implementation itself and unless you are wildly successful in your rebellion (which mages were not) it might leave you worse off, especially when dealing with a problem that's feared by superstitious common folk. How is negotiating with the Chantry an option? All they care about is whether mages are under control, not their happiness. You know, other than all the people in the Chantry including the Divine striving for exactly that.
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22,991
August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 25, 2018 23:51:01 GMT
So you think killing innocent civilians is okay, then? Just trying to make sure I understand your post. This is a civil war. The Mages in the Circle aren't an army. And Anders didn't attack civil target. Anders attacked the Chantry, what caused the war. And his attack killed innocent civilians, both directly and indirectly. Do you support tactics that do that?
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18,274
Catilina
11,040
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 25, 2018 23:57:22 GMT
Soft target? He targeted the main enemy: Elthina. She was the most powerful person in Kirkwall. He would able to kill many Templars (he did it already!), but that wouldn't be that effective... in fact: just would make the situation even worse, without any chance to mages for fighting for themselves. It would a really wasted attack, wasted lives. If Elthina was the most powerful person in Kirkwall she would have been able to control Meredith, but it was painfully obvious this wasn't the case. He used Hawke to deal with the most powerful people in the city (both Meredith and Orsino actually) whereas he dealt a "shocking" blow against some non-combatants that was more designed to shock and act as a symbol then create any real sort of power vacuum. He's a coward Why coward? He waited for the judgement, and was willing to accept the death sentence, and was able to fight. Elthina appointed Meredith. She's her superior in Kirkwall. The Grand Cleric the next rank, direct after the Divine. Here this powerless, wise praying auntie: Orsino's NOTHING. He just a senior prisoner.
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Dec 12, 2024 11:13:26 GMT
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July 2017
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Post by river82 on Mar 26, 2018 0:00:41 GMT
If Elthina was the most powerful person in Kirkwall she would have been able to control Meredith, but it was painfully obvious this wasn't the case. He used Hawke to deal with the most powerful people in the city (both Meredith and Orsino actually) whereas he dealt a "shocking" blow against some non-combatants that was more designed to shock and act as a symbol then create any real sort of power vacuum. He's a coward Why coward? He waited for the judgement, and was willing to accept the death sentence, and was able to fight. Elthina appointed Meredith. She's her superior in Kirkwall. The Grand Cleric the next rank, direct after the Divine. Here this powerless, wise praying auntie: Orsino's NOTHING. He just a senior prisoner. Death is the coward's way out. It's a way of saying he didn't want to deal with the fallout of his actions. Elthina may have been the figurehead in Kirkwall but she wasn't where the real power lay. The real power lay in Meredith, and she kept Orsino in check. Elthina was nothing, really.
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August 2016
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Post by Catilina on Mar 26, 2018 0:00:54 GMT
This is a civil war. The Mages in the Circle aren't an army. And Anders didn't attack civil target. Anders attacked the Chantry, what caused the war. And his attack killed innocent civilians, both directly and indirectly. Do you support tactics that do that? I support Anders, yes. It was clear, not?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 26, 2018 0:01:48 GMT
And his attack killed innocent civilians, both directly and indirectly. Do you support tactics that do that? I support Anders, yes. It was clear, not? Got it. So you support murdering innocent civilians. I'm glad to finally have clarity on that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 26, 2018 0:03:55 GMT
Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I hope we aren't railroaded into things in DA4 with the Qun-Tevinter conflict like we are in DA2 with the Mage-Templar conflict. For example if we know someone is going to launch an attack, actually be able to at least try to stop them instead of just sitting on your hands like with Anders' terrorist attack.
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August 2016
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Post by Catilina on Mar 26, 2018 0:12:31 GMT
Why coward? He waited for the judgement, and was willing to accept the death sentence, and was able to fight. Elthina appointed Meredith. She's her superior in Kirkwall. The Grand Cleric the next rank, direct after the Divine. Here this powerless, wise praying auntie: Orsino's NOTHING. He just a senior prisoner. Death is the coward's way out. It's a way of saying he didn't want to deal with the fallout of his actions. Elthina may have been the figurehead in Kirkwall but she wasn't where the real power lay. The real power lay in Meredith, and she kept Orsino in check. Elthina was nothing, really. Anders didn't want to die, he wanted to start a rebellion. He prepared to die because he knew/expected, he will die. (Okay, in the rivalry, he wants to die... but in the rivalry, he already lost himself, the rivalry doesn't matter.) So: why he didn't attack the Templars if the death no matter to him? He easily would able to kill many Templars alone, AND die as a hero. But that wouldn't effective. Elthina was Meredith's superior. She was coward if did nothing. But he was no coward. She was totally idiot or malevolent, I vote for the latter. She has every power to stop Meredith: she has years to do it. When Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, Meredith already was a dangerous criminal and the real ruler of the city. Elthina (and the Knight Captain...) was the only who was able to kick her. And if she feels, she will fail, then she would able to ask for help from the Divine (Seekers). (Why people think, Orsino is someone who counts? I will never understand. He doesn't play in this game, sadly.)
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18,274
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 26, 2018 0:16:28 GMT
Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I hope we aren't railroaded into things in DA4 with the Qun-Tevinter conflict like we are in DA2 with the Mage-Templar conflict. For example if we know someone is going to launch an attack, actually be able to at least try to stop them instead of just sitting on your hands like with Anders' terrorist attack. And the protagonist hugs both sides, and they walk in the sunshine together, holding each other's hands, singing and dancing. Yay! Oh almost forget: The protagonist must punish har the naughty attacker, and humiliate! What an unfair act to not ask the protagonist, what s/he wants? We speak about two corrupt system. Why that big problem is if anyone wants to attack them?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 26, 2018 0:25:19 GMT
How is negotiating with the Chantry an option? All they care about is whether mages are under control, not their happiness. You know, other than all the people in the Chantry including the Divine striving for exactly that. After that Kirkwall happened.
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0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,701
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 26, 2018 12:36:17 GMT
Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I hope we aren't railroaded into things in DA4 with the Qun-Tevinter conflict like we are in DA2 with the Mage-Templar conflict. For example if we know someone is going to launch an attack, actually be able to at least try to stop them instead of just sitting on your hands like with Anders' terrorist attack. I rationalize that as happening because there’s no way, in-character, for Hawke to suspect what Anders is planning. On a meta level, players can guess, because we know the ingredients for gunpowder, and explosives are commonly used for building demolition in our world. DA2 takes great pains to establish that this isn’t the case in Thedas. Outside of small dwarven grenades that don’t affect permanent structures, the only people using explosives are Qunari, and no one knows their recipe. And they mostly use it for cannons, as far as we know, so exploding buildings is not something a Marcher would even think of. It’s just not on their radar. They might imagine that magic could do a variety of things they aren’t aware of, but they’d have no reason to imagine (much less warn people of) this specific thing.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Mar 26, 2018 13:25:03 GMT
Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I hope we aren't railroaded into things in DA4 with the Qun-Tevinter conflict like we are in DA2 with the Mage-Templar conflict. For example if we know someone is going to launch an attack, actually be able to at least try to stop them instead of just sitting on your hands like with Anders' terrorist attack. I rationalize that as happening because there’s no way, in-character, for Hawke to suspect what Anders is planning. On a meta level, players can guess, because we know the ingredients for gunpowder, and explosives are commonly used for building demolition in our world. DA2 takes great pains to establish that this isn’t the case in Thedas. Outside of small dwarven grenades that don’t affect permanent structures, the only people using explosives are Qunari, and no one knows their recipe. And they mostly use it for cannons, as far as we know, so exploding buildings is not something a Marcher would even think of. It’s just not on their radar. They might imagine that magic could do a variety of things they aren’t aware of, but they’d have no reason to imagine (much less warn people of) this specific thing. In the Vigil's Keep (Awakening) Dworkin Glavonak (Dworkin, the mad) knew many tricky explosives. Hawke can meet with his brother in the Deep Roads (Nathaniel Quest). But of course, Hawke not an alchemist, so, I don't think, there's a big chance to find out. By the way: Anders tells to Hawke, if s/he inquires (true, vague), this a violent, bloody act, even if Hawke doesn't know, what exactly will happen, s/he can figure, that Anders didn't ask him/her distracting Elthina's attention, because he wants to feed orphan kittens in the Chantry basement. (I don't even understand, why rival!Hawke helps him in it.)
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