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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 5, 2018 19:44:52 GMT
They already had access to a prothean beacon on Virmire before ME1 starts. Here is my old post on why I think Saren's and Sovereign's actions in ME1 are pretty logical, given what they knew and had to assume at each point of the plot.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 5, 2018 20:27:50 GMT
Anderson, all by himself, manages to infiltrate Citadel Control and unlock the Normandy. He is caught, but not killed. The narrative you're constructing is inconsistent with yet another narrative presented in the game. 1. The place where anderson unlock the normandy and the room with the death asari where saren took control of the citadel arm are different places. I doubt that gaining access to the citadel arm can be done in the same place, from the same console, with the same security measures and with the same ease as unlocking a ship (which can be done even from udina console!) 2. as I've said, even if Saren had managed to sneak in the CC and to open up the arms the same way anderson did, he would still have to go to the tower and trasfer control of the citadel to sovereing. How can you do that without a small army? You can't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 20:51:57 GMT
They already had access to a prothean beacon on Virmire before ME1 starts. Here is my old post on why I think Saren's and Sovereign's actions in ME1 are pretty logical, given what they knew and had to assume at each point of the plot. However, why would Sovereign (a machine) even start out with the idea that the Protheans meddled with the signal without first investigating the problem at it's end point and tracing the "wiring" backwards through the system to find its source. That is, after all, how a machine would logically think. They don't act on a suspicion. Also inconsistent with the narrative of Sovereign thinking like a machine is the notion that he would do something "out of desperation" (per Vigil's theory)... particularly when time/eternity has no meaning for the Reapers (an idea which is also clearly presented in the narrative). A computer who has been calculating something (say Pi) for years is no more "desperate" to solve it than a computer that has just started in on the same calculation. Within the definition of a plot hole - one does exist here. I'm not arguing the quality of any of the myriad of explanations the fan base have devised to close that plot hole. I have several of my own that I use to reconcile the various playthroughs I do. It doesn't change the reality that a "gap" and "an inconsistency" (i.e. plot hole) exists within the narrative given to us by Bioware. Whether or not it is a major or minor plot hole is a subjective matter. I judge it to be a major one, but you can judge it as you please.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 5, 2018 20:56:31 GMT
Couldn't Saren have passed control of the Citadel to Sovereign before going to Eden Prime? At that time, he was still a Spectre who, most likely, could go anywhere on the Citadel without any suspicion. Once he's at the controls, he lets Sovereign know. Sovereign shows up, gets a hold of the tower, and hello reaper invasion.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 5, 2018 20:59:10 GMT
Vigil, talking about that, said "Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong" and "sovering could have been planning this (the attack) for centuries, moving deliberately, gathering allies. Slowly it has assembled the pieces of the puzzle etc."
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 5, 2018 21:05:31 GMT
Couldn't Saren have passed control of the Citadel to Sovereign before going to Eden Prime? At that time, he was still a Spectre who, most likely, could go anywhere on the Citadel without any suspicion. Once he's at the controls, he lets Sovereign know. Sovereign shows up, gets a hold of the tower, and hello reaper invasion. but after that Saren must transfer the control of the citadel to sovereing. and that could be done only from the tower panel. If saren failed to do so quickly (fighting is way alone of with few allies from the CC room to the tower), the citadel defence force would regain control of the arms before he transfer control to sovereing, re-open it, all the fleets in the galaxy arrive and the sovering is done.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 5, 2018 21:08:09 GMT
UpUpAgain: As I said in the linked post, to investigate the problem at the Citadel's end, Sovi would already have had to play it's end game, which is not a great idea, given that it is the only reaper in the Milky Way. Also, we don't know what or how Sovi might have investigated the situation even before "recruiting" Saaren or Dr. Qian. Vigil even says that he doubts that Saren is Sovi's first puppet. It's not a plot hole. You are suggesting an alternative plot and try to come up with reasons why it would have been a better one. That doesn't mean the actual plot doesn't work. Sure, we don't have every single bit of information of why Sovi acted the way it did in the game layed out right before us but there are plenty of logical reason to act that way. We also don't know why Wrex rather than Zaeed was sent by the Shadow Broker to deal with Fist but that's how it happened. It's like that question about LotR, why didn't the eagles fly Frodo to Mount Doom? I don't know but I can come up with all sorts of reasons, like more ring wraith beasts that would have overwhelmed the eagles in Mordor or whatever. The point is, as long as it CAN make sense, it's not a plot hole.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 21:32:36 GMT
Vigil, talking about that, said "Alone, it was forced to try and discover what had gone wrong" and "sovering could have been planning this (the attack) for centuries, moving deliberately, gathering allies. Slowly it has assembled the pieces of the puzzle etc." That, however, still begs the question then of Why did Saren, Sovereign's ally, believe that finding the Conduit was any advantage to him when the problem as Sovereign already knew it was getting someone to turn on a console on the Citadel. A simpler solution would have been to just indoctrinate someone who worked there. STILL, the plot hole exists BECAUSE Bioware provided no explanation within the narrative itself. We are, therefore, compelled to construct these complex scenarios on our own to fill in the plot hole that exists... and most of us have been doing that ever since the games came out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 21:35:07 GMT
UpUpAgain: As I said in the linked post, to investigate the problem at the Citadel's end, Sovi would already have had to play it's end game, which is not a great idea, given that it is the only reaper in the Milky Way. Also, we don't know what or how Sovi might have investigated the situation even before "recruiting" Saaren or Dr. Qian. Vigil even says that he doubts that Saren is Sovi's first puppet. It's not a plot hole. You are suggesting an alternative plot and try to come up with reasons why it would have been a better one. That doesn't mean the actual plot doesn't work. Sure, we don't have every single bit of information of why Sovi acted the way it did in the game layed out right before us but there are plenty of logical reason to act that way. We also don't know why Wrex rather than Zaeed was sent by the Shadow Broker to deal with Fist but that's how it happened. It's like that question about LotR, why didn't the eagles fly Frodo to Mount Doom? I don't know but I can come up with all sorts of reasons, like more ring wraith beasts that would have overwhelmed the eagles in Mordor or whatever. The point is, as long as it CAN make sense, it's not a plot hole. A machine tracking a problem has no concept of an "end game." Deception is not inherent in "thinking like a machine." Sovereign doesn't need to know that the Protheans tampered with the keepers. He simply needs the signal to get through to serve it's purpose. So, sending it to the keepers doesn't work... bypass them entirely and get some other indoctrinated mook to activate the console. Since the console itself still works... problem solved and the rest is irrelevant. The only way it becomes relevant is IF the console were in a place normally accessible only by keepers and why I say the solution would have been very simple - have the Conduit access that "keeper only" area instead of landing everyone outside the front door of the Tower. The final task for Saren is fighting keepers to get to the console and, for Shepard, fighting the troops Saren tasks with covering his ass.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 5, 2018 21:37:25 GMT
but after that Saren must transfer the control of the citadel to sovereing.and that could be done only from the tower panel. If saren failed to do so quickly (fighting is way alone of with few allies from the CC room to the tower), the citadel defence force would regain control of the arms before he transfer control to sovereing, re-open it, all the fleets in the galaxy arrive and the sovering is done. Why would he be fighting anyone if he's able to get to the panel without any suspicion? Once he alerts Sovereign that he's at the panel, Sovereign shows up. The Citadel fleets won't be expecting Sovereign. Sovereign can take care of them easily before attaching itself to the tower. As far as all the fleets of the galaxy showing up? No. The only reason why the Alliance showed up when they did is because they were already on alert. Fleets from the other species never showed up. By the time anyone does show up, the reaper invasion would have started
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 5, 2018 21:48:28 GMT
UpUpAgain: As I said in the linked post, to investigate the problem at the Citadel's end, Sovi would already have had to play it's end game, which is not a great idea, given that it is the only reaper in the Milky Way. Also, we don't know what or how Sovi might have investigated the situation even before "recruiting" Saaren or Dr. Qian. Vigil even says that he doubts that Saren is Sovi's first puppet. It's not a plot hole. You are suggesting an alternative plot and try to come up with reasons why it would have been a better one. That doesn't mean the actual plot doesn't work. Sure, we don't have every single bit of information of why Sovi acted the way it did in the game layed out right before us but there are plenty of logical reason to act that way. We also don't know why Wrex rather than Zaeed was sent by the Shadow Broker to deal with Fist but that's how it happened. It's like that question about LotR, why didn't the eagles fly Frodo to Mount Doom? I don't know but I can come up with all sorts of reasons, like more ring wraith beasts that would have overwhelmed the eagles in Mordor or whatever. The point is, as long as it CAN make sense, it's not a plot hole. A machine tracking a problem has no concept of an "end game." Deception is not inherent in "thinking like a machine." Sovereign doesn't need to know that the Protheans tampered with the keepers. He simply needs the signal to get through to serve it's purpose. So, sending it to the keepers doesn't work... bypass them entirely and get some other indoctrinated mook to activate the console. Since the console itself still works... problem solved and the rest is irrelevant. a) Sovereign isn't just a computer, its a genuine AI, it therefore has the same capacities as any other intelligence. At the very least we can say that we don't know exactly what exactly Sovi's capabilities for deception and lateral thinking are but given that the reapers set up the entire relay network as a trap to trick organics to be dependent on technology that they control, I'd say chances are they are pretty good at coming up with deceptive and convoluted plans. b ) Yes, it needs the signal to get through but it doesn't know why it doesn't get through and it knows that once it approaches the Citadel it makes itself vulnerable.to attack and possible destruction. Since it doesn't know what is wrong exactly it doesn't know how long it would take to fix the problem. It could send its mook in to look at the console but if the mook is overwhelmed before getting to the root of the problem (and/or fixing it), now all the organics on the Citadel know about the secret console that control the Citadel's secret relay functionality. That would be bad. Best option: Investigate the problem without showing yourself. Most likely root cause of the problem: The protheans, since everything worked before their cycle. Best way to do that: Scour the galaxy for leftover prothean tech -> Find Virmire beacon -> Events ensue from there. This is just one possible chain of events that makes the ME1 plot perfectly plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 22:00:16 GMT
A machine tracking a problem has no concept of an "end game." Deception is not inherent in "thinking like a machine." Sovereign doesn't need to know that the Protheans tampered with the keepers. He simply needs the signal to get through to serve it's purpose. So, sending it to the keepers doesn't work... bypass them entirely and get some other indoctrinated mook to activate the console. Since the console itself still works... problem solved and the rest is irrelevant. a) Sovereign isn't just a computer, its a genuine AI, it therefore has the same capacities as any other intelligence. At the very least we can say that we don't know exactly what exactly Sovi's capabilities for deception and lateral thinking are but given that the reapers set up the entire relay network as a trap to trick organics to be dependent on technology that they control, I'd say chances are they are pretty good at coming up with deceptive and convoluted plans. b ) Yes, it needs the signal to get through but it doesn't know why it doesn't get through and it knows that once it approaches the Citadel it makes itself vulnerable.to attack and possible destruction. Since it doesn't know what is wrong exactly it doesn't know how long it would take to fix the problem. It could send its mook in to look at the console but if the mook is overwhelmed before getting to the root of the problem (and/or fixing it), now all the organics on the Citadel know about the secret console that control the Citadel's secret relay functionality. That would be bad. Best option: Investigate the problem without showing yourself. Most likely root cause of the problem: The protheans, since everything worked before their cycle. Best way to do that: Scour the galaxy for leftover prothean tech -> Find Virmire beacon -> Events ensue from there. This is just one possible chain of events that makes the ME1 plot perfectly plausible. The inconsistency in the narrative is that we are told outright he "thinks like a machine." Again, it does not need to know why it doesn't get through. The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work. Since it would, the "why" the keeper one didn't becomes irrelevant. Sovereign also does not need to show himself to have a "non-keeper" mook try to activate the console. The process we're given in the narrative is that the keepers activate the console without Sovereign having to show himself. It is not activated by Sovereign personally and, in the end, we are shown that the console is accessible by anyone who can access the council chambers. One person who can get there who will "listen" to Sovereign's signal is sufficient according to the narrative we're given. Inconsistent with the narrative is that Saren has to open the arms to allow Sovereign to sit on his perch and be shot at by the Alliance.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 5, 2018 22:27:02 GMT
a) Sovereign isn't just a computer, its a genuine AI, it therefore has the same capacities as any other intelligence. At the very least we can say that we don't know exactly what exactly Sovi's capabilities for deception and lateral thinking are but given that the reapers set up the entire relay network as a trap to trick organics to be dependent on technology that they control, I'd say chances are they are pretty good at coming up with deceptive and convoluted plans. b ) Yes, it needs the signal to get through but it doesn't know why it doesn't get through and it knows that once it approaches the Citadel it makes itself vulnerable.to attack and possible destruction. Since it doesn't know what is wrong exactly it doesn't know how long it would take to fix the problem. It could send its mook in to look at the console but if the mook is overwhelmed before getting to the root of the problem (and/or fixing it), now all the organics on the Citadel know about the secret console that control the Citadel's secret relay functionality. That would be bad. Best option: Investigate the problem without showing yourself. Most likely root cause of the problem: The protheans, since everything worked before their cycle. Best way to do that: Scour the galaxy for leftover prothean tech -> Find Virmire beacon -> Events ensue from there. This is just one possible chain of events that makes the ME1 plot perfectly plausible. The inconsistency in the narrative is that we are told outright he "thinks like a machine." Again, it does not need to know why it doesn't get through. The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work. Since it would, the "why" the keeper one didn't becomes irrelevant. Sovereign also does not need to show himself to have a "non-keeper" mook try to activate the console. The process we're given in the narrative is that the keepers activate the console without Sovereign having to show himself. It is not activated by Sovereign personally and, in the end, we are shown that the console is accessible by anyone who can access the council chambers. One person who can get there who will "listen" to Sovereign's signal is sufficient according to the narrative we're given. Inconsistent with the narrative is that Saren has to open the arms to allow Sovereign to sit on his perch and be shot at by the Alliance. It may think like a machine but machines think very differently in a world where AIs exist. I don't understand your second paragraph. Specifically this sentence " The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work." If you mean that Sovereign should have been able to access that console directly through an alternate signal, well, it couldn't. The system worked through the keepers. Vigil tells us as much. By mook, I didn't mean a keeper, I actually was hinting at Saren. The problem is still that Sovereign does not know what is wrong on the Citadel. When it sends the signal to the keepers, nothing happened. That all it knows at that point. Something was apparently sabotaged but what? Just the signal to the keepers? Or the relay functionality itself? the interface of the secret console in the tower? Maybe all of those? That is why it can't just go there itself because it might take a long time to open the citadel relay and Sovi would be destroyed in the mean time. That's also it can't send Saren or anyone else there without significant backup because it might take any of those agents too long to figure out what was sabotaged before C-Sec overwhelms them. Sovi had to find out what exactly was wrong first and do so without interacting with the Citadel at all, i.e. without poking the hornets nest. So we are back to finding out what the protheans did, we are back to the Virmire beacon, we are back to the ME1 plot. BTW: Turns out Sovereign's cautious approach was right. Saren is in the council chambers minutes before Shepard. Yet, he didn't activate the Citadel's relay functionality yet. Why is that? Either it does take quite some time to activate the dark space relay by default (which would explain Sovi's caution from the start) or the protheans sabotaged more than just the keeper signal, once they got to the Citadel (which would also be something Vigil wouldn't know about anymore). Either way, Sovi was correct to put all the pieces into place to launch the allout assault and not show itself or one of its mooks before.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 6, 2018 10:06:51 GMT
but after that Saren must transfer the control of the citadel to sovereing.and that could be done only from the tower panel. If saren failed to do so quickly (fighting is way alone of with few allies from the CC room to the tower), the citadel defence force would regain control of the arms before he transfer control to sovereing, re-open it, all the fleets in the galaxy arrive and the sovering is done. Why would he be fighting anyone if he's able to get to the panel without any suspicion? Once he alerts Sovereign that he's at the panel, Sovereign shows up. The Citadel fleets won't be expecting Sovereign. Sovereign can take care of them easily before attaching itself to the tower. As far as all the fleets of the galaxy showing up? No. The only reason why the Alliance showed up when they did is because they were already on alert. Fleets from the other species never showed up. By the time anyone does show up, the reaper invasion would have started we have to assume an intolerable level of incompetence here... I mean, imagine a top CIA field agent enter whereven the United States manage their anti-missile shield or some other fundamental defensive system (like the citadel arms, not the useless lock/unlock-ships-to-the-docks system...) without specific authorization. let's say that he succeeds. He is inside. Than what? He start hacking things and messing with the panels? log in to the computers? Nobody would stop him? Nobody controls what he is doing? Hey boys do not pay attention to me, just have to do something very important for the president, spectre business you know... can I use that panel overthere? yes, the most important one.Yes mr Saren, of course, no problemThanks. Almost finished.... give me another minute... and... done! Thanks!After that, Sovereing appears. Ships start to explode in the sky. Tha arms of the citadel start to close. How would people in the CC react? (assuming that they were so incompetent and dull to allow Saren to mess with the panels)? By shooting Saren And saren need to go from the citadel control to tower to transfer control of the station to sovereing (Vigil exact quote). Sovereing didnt' attack immediately, if you notice. It waited until the geth weakend the citadel fleet and saren was in the tower. Sovreing want to be sure that: a. the arms of the citadel stay closed (and so be protected from the inevitable counterattack... the other fleets proved to be quite slow to react, true, but what if they weren't? Would sovereing risk everything betting on the slowness of asari and turian? That would be lazy) b. get control of the citadel in little time (if saren and it's minions are overwhelmed, who is going to transfer control to sovereing? Who could keep the arms closed? What if the asari/turian fleet start to arrive?) Every scenario where Saren is alone (or almost alone) and must fight his way to the tower is incredibly risky for sovereing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 13:19:38 GMT
The inconsistency in the narrative is that we are told outright he "thinks like a machine." Again, it does not need to know why it doesn't get through. The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work. Since it would, the "why" the keeper one didn't becomes irrelevant. Sovereign also does not need to show himself to have a "non-keeper" mook try to activate the console. The process we're given in the narrative is that the keepers activate the console without Sovereign having to show himself. It is not activated by Sovereign personally and, in the end, we are shown that the console is accessible by anyone who can access the council chambers. One person who can get there who will "listen" to Sovereign's signal is sufficient according to the narrative we're given. Inconsistent with the narrative is that Saren has to open the arms to allow Sovereign to sit on his perch and be shot at by the Alliance. It may think like a machine but machines think very differently in a world where AIs exist. I don't understand your second paragraph. Specifically this sentence " The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work." If you mean that Sovereign should have been able to access that console directly through an alternate signal, well, it couldn't. The system worked through the keepers. Vigil tells us as much. By mook, I didn't mean a keeper, I actually was hinting at Saren. The problem is still that Sovereign does not know what is wrong on the Citadel. When it sends the signal to the keepers, nothing happened. That all it knows at that point. Something was apparently sabotaged but what? Just the signal to the keepers? Or the relay functionality itself? the interface of the secret console in the tower? Maybe all of those? That is why it can't just go there itself because it might take a long time to open the citadel relay and Sovi would be destroyed in the mean time. That's also it can't send Saren or anyone else there without significant backup because it might take any of those agents too long to figure out what was sabotaged before C-Sec overwhelms them. Sovi had to find out what exactly was wrong first and do so without interacting with the Citadel at all, i.e. without poking the hornets nest. So we are back to finding out what the protheans did, we are back to the Virmire beacon, we are back to the ME1 plot. BTW: Turns out Sovereign's cautious approach was right. Saren is in the council chambers minutes before Shepard. Yet, he didn't activate the Citadel's relay functionality yet. Why is that? Either it does take quite some time to activate the dark space relay by default (which would explain Sovi's caution from the start) or the protheans sabotaged more than just the keeper signal, once they got to the Citadel (which would also be something Vigil wouldn't know about anymore). Either way, Sovi was correct to put all the pieces into place to launch the allout assault and not show itself or one of its mooks before. My second paragraph means getting someone else (other than a keeper) to activate the console for him. Rather than enlisting the help of Saren to gather an army, etc., why didn't Sovereign just enlist the help of someone who did have direct and free access to the council chamber (e.g. a councillor) and/or a person who worked in Citadel control. Someone at the scene of the malfunction. If that console had just been tested and activated, it would have worked since the problem was limited to the keepers not responding... and we wouldn't have had a story at all in ME1. The situation with Saren is contrived storytelling. Yes, he doesn't know what was wrong... but the path he took towards finding out what was wrong is illogical... especially for a machine. It avoids finding out the problem because finding out the problem would have ended the story right there. As I said, we are all constructing "what if" scenarios here BECAUSE a plot hole exists. The narrative is incomplete and inconsistent. We have to work ourselves to explain it BECAUSE Bioware didn't explain it. Just because we can come up with a scenario that satisfies us personally (regardless of who else agrees or disagrees with it) does not preclude the plot hole's existence. That is my main point. I'm not here to argue the specifics of your imagined scenario vs. mine. In fact, I've made up several different ones since some suit the personalities of my various SHepards better than others. What opinions Shepard holds about AIs IS an intended variable (i.e. we can select different dialogues that express different opinions about them). When we need to reach outside the actual narrative to fill in a plot gap, there is no one or absolutely correct way to do it... because it's all individual interpretation. From regular literature, we are conditioned to abhor plot holes. In other forms of literature, thee is no such thing as "reader agency" or the ability to shape the principle character in different ways. We want the author to explain everything within the narrative. We want them to construct their characters with personalities that absolutely suit the narrative. However, in an RPG that is being written to be flexible and responsive to a variety of different decisions and personalities the player might construct for the PC, plot holes are almost inevitable. We don't want the author to lock us into one personality of PC. Furthermore, plot holes can be used by the players to develop a variety of rich and imaginative interpretations of the narrative. However, the fan base tends to want to convince every other fan to see the narrative only in one way... their way. Green ending bad, ME1 perfect, etc. I think that's a real shame.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 6, 2018 16:17:35 GMT
It may think like a machine but machines think very differently in a world where AIs exist. I don't understand your second paragraph. Specifically this sentence " The first test is putting an alternate signal through and does the console itself still work." If you mean that Sovereign should have been able to access that console directly through an alternate signal, well, it couldn't. The system worked through the keepers. Vigil tells us as much. By mook, I didn't mean a keeper, I actually was hinting at Saren. The problem is still that Sovereign does not know what is wrong on the Citadel. When it sends the signal to the keepers, nothing happened. That all it knows at that point. Something was apparently sabotaged but what? Just the signal to the keepers? Or the relay functionality itself? the interface of the secret console in the tower? Maybe all of those? That is why it can't just go there itself because it might take a long time to open the citadel relay and Sovi would be destroyed in the mean time. That's also it can't send Saren or anyone else there without significant backup because it might take any of those agents too long to figure out what was sabotaged before C-Sec overwhelms them. Sovi had to find out what exactly was wrong first and do so without interacting with the Citadel at all, i.e. without poking the hornets nest. So we are back to finding out what the protheans did, we are back to the Virmire beacon, we are back to the ME1 plot. BTW: Turns out Sovereign's cautious approach was right. Saren is in the council chambers minutes before Shepard. Yet, he didn't activate the Citadel's relay functionality yet. Why is that? Either it does take quite some time to activate the dark space relay by default (which would explain Sovi's caution from the start) or the protheans sabotaged more than just the keeper signal, once they got to the Citadel (which would also be something Vigil wouldn't know about anymore). Either way, Sovi was correct to put all the pieces into place to launch the allout assault and not show itself or one of its mooks before. My second paragraph means getting someone else (other than a keeper) to activate the console for him. Rather than enlisting the help of Saren to gather an army, etc., why didn't Sovereign just enlist the help of someone who did have direct and free access to the council chamber (e.g. a councillor) and/or a person who worked in Citadel control. Someone at the scene of the malfunction. If that console had just been tested and activated, it would have worked since the problem was limited to the keepers not responding... and we wouldn't have had a story at all in ME1. The situation with Saren is contrived storytelling. Yes, he doesn't know what was wrong... but the path he took towards finding out what was wrong is illogical... especially for a machine. It avoids finding out the problem because finding out the problem would have ended the story right there. As I said, we are all constructing "what if" scenarios here BECAUSE a plot hole exists. The narrative is incomplete and inconsistent. We have to work ourselves to explain it BECAUSE Bioware didn't explain it. Just because we can come up with a scenario that satisfies us personally (regardless of who else agrees or disagrees with it) does not preclude the plot hole's existence. That is my main point. I'm not here to argue the specifics of your imagined scenario vs. mine. In fact, I've made up several different ones since some suit the personalities of my various SHepards better than others. What opinions Shepard holds about AIs IS an intended variable (i.e. we can select different dialogues that express different opinions about them). When we need to reach outside the actual narrative to fill in a plot gap, there is no one or absolutely correct way to do it... because it's all individual interpretation. From regular literature, we are conditioned to abhor plot holes. In other forms of literature, thee is no such thing as "reader agency" or the ability to shape the principle character in different ways. We want the author to explain everything within the narrative. We want them to construct their characters with personalities that absolutely suit the narrative. However, in an RPG that is being written to be flexible and responsive to a variety of different decisions and personalities the player might construct for the PC, plot holes are almost inevitable. We don't want the author to lock us into one personality of PC. Furthermore, plot holes can be used by the players to develop a variety of rich and imaginative interpretations of the narrative. However, the fan base tends to want to convince every other fan to see the narrative only in one way... their way. Green ending bad, ME1 perfect, etc. I think that's a real shame. The only one constructing a "what if" scenario is you, as in "what if everything in the ME universe we don't have explicit information about works exactly like I think it should", I am just saying if x and y happened before the start of ME1, the plot makes sense. That's not "what if" that's deduction from that fact that are established in the game. Did it absolutely have to be that way? No, but it absolutely can be this way and then it does make sense.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Apr 6, 2018 20:32:30 GMT
I'm pretty meh on plotholes right now, but it seems to me sovereign could have just flown out to darkspace, said hey its time. Then fly back with the armada. Like they ended up doing anyway. With no advance warning for organics.
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Post by kalreegar on Apr 6, 2018 21:42:23 GMT
I'm pretty meh on plotholes right now, but it seems to me sovereign could have just flown out to darkspace, said hey its time. Then fly back with the armada. Like they ended up doing anyway. With no advance warning for organics. And not taking organic by surprise, beheading the council and not shoting down the mass relay network, ultimately caused their defeat. So Sovereign was right to try to make the invasion start as usual. In retrospect, it could have just flown out to darkspace, yes. The invasion would have probably been more effective. So, we can say that it was probably a strategic error. An evaluation mistake. But if you create a villain that is (a lot) more powerful than the good ones, well, the only way to make the good ones prevail is to make the villain make some small mistake. If the powerful villain performs his plan perfectly, with zero errors and missteps, the good ones are doomed, even if they fight bravely and cleverly. I don't think that reapers making some evaluation mistake here and there is a plot hole. they are not deities, even if they seem to believe it and would like to make everybody believe it... I also personally believe (but that's headcanon) that the reapers are not as powerful as they say they are. To arrive from deep space, to waste resources in the process, to fight system by system, having to attack the major planets and the citadel without a surprise effect, to suffer greater losses than usual.. it was not a good thing for them. Yes, of course they still have the upperhand, but they are weakened. They failed to completely eradicate the prothean, and that made the next cycle much more complicated to defeat. And a much more complicated cycle to defeat can be a much more difficult cycle to eradicate. The crucible is the last straw. They are done. So the success of the sovereign plan was important. A non-conventional invasion was something to avoid, if possible. But they would have won anyway, had it not been for shepard...
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Post by Sifr on Apr 6, 2018 22:30:49 GMT
Saren or any number of his Asari commandos had public access to the very spot on the Citadel where the Conduit landed everyone.... that's the plot hole. There is no explanation as to why the Conduit lead to a public place and not inside the secured area Saren was actually trying to access. How did building the Conduit to land in a public plaza on the Citadel benefit the Protheans in getting the keepers to ignore Sovereign's signal in the first place. There is no explanation as to why Saren had to use geth and not Asari to guard his ass or even why Saren himself had to be the one to manipulate the control itself. There are a couple possible explanations. The Protheans may have built and located the Conduit somewhere else entirely. But when the Asari found the Citadel and began exploring, they moved the Conduit onto the Presidium because they incorrectly assumed (as we're told in ME1) that it was some kind of statue or art installation. Saren was unaware of the Conduit's true nature for most of the game, only believing that it was a means for the Reapers to return. By the time he realised what it was (a backdoor to the Citadel) and where it would lead to, he had already been exposed as a traitor and couldn't get back on the Citadel conventionally.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 22:43:10 GMT
I always took the 'conventional' invasion by the Reapers as an act of urgency.
By the end of ME2, remnants of Reaper technology (bits of Sovereign, Collector technology, the Reaper IFF) were in the hands of the Organics. It would have been likely that the races of the galaxy could eventually develop advanced weaponry/technology from these captured items and eventually gain the capability of actually meeting and effectively countering a Reaper invasion.
Knowing the Reapers, they most probably knew this was a likelyhood and came in 'the long way' from Dark Space to snuff out the galaxy while they could still do it easily.
That's my own spin on things. Whether or not this is a feasible explanation is up to much more knowledgeable folks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2018 1:06:50 GMT
My second paragraph means getting someone else (other than a keeper) to activate the console for him. Rather than enlisting the help of Saren to gather an army, etc., why didn't Sovereign just enlist the help of someone who did have direct and free access to the council chamber (e.g. a councillor) and/or a person who worked in Citadel control. Someone at the scene of the malfunction. If that console had just been tested and activated, it would have worked since the problem was limited to the keepers not responding... and we wouldn't have had a story at all in ME1. The situation with Saren is contrived storytelling. Yes, he doesn't know what was wrong... but the path he took towards finding out what was wrong is illogical... especially for a machine. It avoids finding out the problem because finding out the problem would have ended the story right there. As I said, we are all constructing "what if" scenarios here BECAUSE a plot hole exists. The narrative is incomplete and inconsistent. We have to work ourselves to explain it BECAUSE Bioware didn't explain it. Just because we can come up with a scenario that satisfies us personally (regardless of who else agrees or disagrees with it) does not preclude the plot hole's existence. That is my main point. I'm not here to argue the specifics of your imagined scenario vs. mine. In fact, I've made up several different ones since some suit the personalities of my various SHepards better than others. What opinions Shepard holds about AIs IS an intended variable (i.e. we can select different dialogues that express different opinions about them). When we need to reach outside the actual narrative to fill in a plot gap, there is no one or absolutely correct way to do it... because it's all individual interpretation. From regular literature, we are conditioned to abhor plot holes. In other forms of literature, thee is no such thing as "reader agency" or the ability to shape the principle character in different ways. We want the author to explain everything within the narrative. We want them to construct their characters with personalities that absolutely suit the narrative. However, in an RPG that is being written to be flexible and responsive to a variety of different decisions and personalities the player might construct for the PC, plot holes are almost inevitable. We don't want the author to lock us into one personality of PC. Furthermore, plot holes can be used by the players to develop a variety of rich and imaginative interpretations of the narrative. However, the fan base tends to want to convince every other fan to see the narrative only in one way... their way. Green ending bad, ME1 perfect, etc. I think that's a real shame. The only one constructing a "what if" scenario is you, as in "what if everything in the ME universe we don't have explicit information about works exactly like I think it should", I am just saying if x and y happened before the start of ME1, the plot makes sense. That's not "what if" that's deduction from that fact that are established in the game. Did it absolutely have to be that way? No, but it absolutely can be this way and then it does make sense. Then please show me a quote from the narrative of the game that explains that "x and y happened before the start of ME1" so that the plot makes sense You said it yourself " IF x and y happened..." and then you say, I'm the only one constructing "what ifs"? WTF? You're going outside the narrative to explain a plot hole. Is it a plausible explanation - yes, certainly. Is it the only possible explanation? - no. Was it explained by Bioware - no, it wasn't. You're filling the plot hole yourself. The plot hole still exists in the narrative.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2018 19:10:37 GMT
Sorry if my ast post came off as a bit hostile, upon re-reading it, I guess it might have. here is what I meant to say:
"what if" and just "if" are not the same thing.
One is based on observations With just "if" you make an assumption based on observation. For example, I observed in game that Sovereign didn't go directly for the Citadel, so I am assuming that it would have been to dangerous for him to do so. There is no what in there. I am not asking the question "what if Sovereign had done this or that instead of what is in the game." I am just saying "if Sovereign didn't see a good chance to succeed by sending a small contingent or going himself just like that, than what we've seen makes sense".
Unless you can give me a good reason as to why my - admittedly made up - reason for why the plot CAN work is invalid (a reason that goes beyond "I don't think Sovereign would think that way"), I don't consider there to be a plot hole.
Maybe we just have a different definition of a plot hole. You need for every detail to be explicitly told in the plot, I am ok with implications as long as there are not direct self-contradictions.
Of course, where do the self-contradictions start? That's a tricky issue. For example, here is something that IMO borderlines on a plot hole: In the game, it is mentioned multiple times that the reapers are very careful to wipe out tech remaining of the protheans. Obviously, they don't catch everything, so things like the Eden Prime beacon were missed. Given the size of the galaxy, that is feasible to me. However, what really stretches suspension of disbelief IMO is the fact that the reapers apparently just left the conduit relay standing in the presidium. Given that this was the protheans first attempt at building their own Mass Relay and given that the reapers are the absolute masters of this technology, I have a hard time seeing how they could just have missed it or ignored it when they took over the Citadel during the prothean cycle invasion. IMO, that stands in contrast to the things we learn about the reapers in the game. Is it a plot hole? Not sure, the reapers might still have missed it or might have trusted in the keepers to remove it eventually, so it's not like there couldn't be an explanation but IMO here, the contradiction between what we learn about how things work in the ME universe and what we see in this particular case is rather severe. Since there are possible explanations, it may not be a plot hole either but it isn't great writing. For that matter, I also don't think the fact that Sovereign's reason for not going for the Citadel right away is not put into explicit words in the game is not great writing either. Main difference I see is that there is also nothing explicit in the game that prevents Sovereign from taking the cautious course that he did.
Ultimately, it's all a question of how believable different people think different scenarios are. I tend to be on the lenient side and I try to make plots work in my mind rather than trying to contradict them. I get that others (like you or e.g. smudboy if anyone remembers him) have different definitions and sensibilities, i just never found it fun or productive to come up with reasons why something doesn't work, rather than for reasons why something works.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 0:31:05 GMT
Sorry if my ast post came off as a bit hostile, upon re-reading it, I guess it might have. here is what I meant to say: "what if" and just "if" are not the same thing. One is based on observations With just "if" you make an assumption based on observation. For example, I observed in game that Sovereign didn't go directly for the Citadel, so I am assuming that it would have been to dangerous for him to do so. There is no what in there. I am not asking the question "what if Sovereign had done this or that instead of what is in the game." I am just saying "if Sovereign didn't see a good chance to succeed by sending a small contingent or going himself just like that, than what we've seen makes sense". Unless you can give me a good reason as to why my - admittedly made up - reason for why the plot CAN work is invalid (a reason that goes beyond "I don't think Sovereign would think that way"), I don't consider there to be a plot hole. Maybe we just have a different definition of a plot hole. You need for every detail to be explicitly told in the plot, I am ok with implications as long as there are not direct self-contradictions. Of course, where do the self-contradictions start? That's a tricky issue. For example, here is something that IMO borderlines on a plot hole: In the game, it is mentioned multiple times that the reapers are very careful to wipe out tech remaining of the protheans. Obviously, they don't catch everything, so things like the Eden Prime beacon were missed. Given the size of the galaxy, that is feasible to me. However, what really stretches suspension of disbelief IMO is the fact that the reapers apparently just left the conduit relay standing in the presidium. Given that this was the protheans first attempt at building their own Mass Relay and given that the reapers are the absolute masters of this technology, I have a hard time seeing how they could just have missed it or ignored it when they took over the Citadel during the prothean cycle invasion. IMO, that stands in contrast to the things we learn about the reapers in the game. Is it a plot hole? Not sure, the reapers might still have missed it or might have trusted in the keepers to remove it eventually, so it's not like there couldn't be an explanation but IMO here, the contradiction between what we learn about how things work in the ME universe and what we see in this particular case is rather severe. Since there are possible explanations, it may not be a plot hole either but it isn't great writing. For that matter, I also don't think the fact that Sovereign's reason for not going for the Citadel right away is not put into explicit words in the game is not great writing either. Main difference I see is that there is also nothing explicit in the game that prevents Sovereign from taking the cautious course that he did. Ultimately, it's all a question of how believable different people think different scenarios are. I tend to be on the lenient side and I try to make plots work in my mind rather than trying to contradict them. I get that others (like you or e.g. smudboy if anyone remembers him) have different definitions and sensibilities, i just never found it fun or productive to come up with reasons why something doesn't work, rather than for reasons why something works. I've never found it productive to just say that something doesn't exist, when it does. Acknowledging the existence of something like a plot hole puts one on the path of working out a solution to it that satisfies either themselves or, in the case of an author, satisfying their audience. Plot holes aren't black holes though. I think that, in RPG's, they can be the spaces in which people can flesh out their own great stories within the story. I'm not advocating for sloppy writing either, but sitting somewhere in between. For a book, obviously the tighter the story the better, but in RPG's I think that too tight a story might be just too limiting for a lot of players. There has to be some room for things such a sequencing and character personalities to change. So, we'll agree to disagree. I say it's still a plot hole. You can consider it to be whatever you like. Oh, and BTW "if" and "what if" are both conditional statements. Neither one relates an absolute fact. Fact is - Bioware did not explain why Sovereign went around the entire galaxy looking for a solution to a problem without even attempting to verify the problem at it's location. All Vigil tells us is that it would have been foolish for him to attack the Citadel directly alone, but soliciting someone who worked there to try the damn button does not require him to attack the Citadel or "show himself" in any way. That he did not try to verify the problem at it's location is self evident because the damn button that activates the relay still works in the end. It's only the keepers who aren't responding. It's a plot hole.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 10, 2018 14:29:22 GMT
Is it a plot hole that the catalyst didn't know about the protheans altering the signal to the keepers even though the thing says its part of the Citadel? Or that it didn't know the portheans built a mini-me relay on the Citadel before the harvest started? Or is it because the thing never existed until the last 10 minutes of a trilogy?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 15:59:11 GMT
Is it a plot hole that the catalyst didn't know about the protheans altering the signal to the keepers even though the thing says its part of the Citadel? Or that it didn't know the portheans built a mini-me relay on the Citadel before the harvest started? Or is it because the thing never existed until the last 10 minutes of a trilogy? IMO, it is indeed a plot hole in that Bioware has not provided an explanation within the narrative for it... so, we players go about an exercise trying to logically fill in the gap they left. Bioware itself could provide an explanation in a future narrative and, in so doing, close the plot hole that currently exists... but as of now, it still exists; and one simply cannot say that Mass Effect has no plot holes. It's also a pretty serious plot hole when taken back to ME1 context. If the Catalyst was a part of the Citadel and in control of the Reapers, why then were the keepers even necessary at all to activate the mass relay? Even if one accepts that the Catalyst just can't press any of the buttons himself because he's a hologram, there is still no explanation as to why he couldn't himself attempt to influence anyone on the Citadel to press the button way back when in ME1 (in much the same way he tries to influence Shepard at the end of ME3). Since the Catalyst could have observed first-hand the progression of the species, why was a vanguard reaper (i.e. Sovereign) needed at all? If the Ai that controls Sovereign is sitting right there on the Citadel, why does it have to go the circle route - sending a signal first to Sovereign to tell Sovereign to send a signal back to the Citadel to tell the keepers to manually activate the Mass Relay that the Reapers built themselves? The whole thing starts to come apart like a house of cards.
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