Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 20, 2018 9:53:43 GMT
How do I control multiple characters simultaneously? If I want multiple characters to do multiple specific things at the same time, how do those controls work? I honestly don't know where are you going with this. What's characters got to do with combat gameplay? How does it affect combat in general? Real-time action gameplay requires that we input specific commands, and the timing of those inputs matters. I don't see how we can do that with multiple characters. Switching between characters means that you're only ever controlling one character at a time, and while you're controlling one character you're not controlling another. That's not full-party control. Controlling the full party would require that we can have multiple characters act simultaneously. I would expect to be able to have one character dodge while another character jumps and a third attacks, all in the same moment. That's what a tactical pause lets us do. If real-time action reduces us to controlling one character at a time, I call that a significant loss of player control over how the characters behave. This is especially troubling in a roleplaying game, where intermittent control can break a character's personality design (which necessarily always comes from the player).
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 20, 2018 11:00:58 GMT
My wants are pretty simple:
1) No more enemies who are only difficult because they soak up damage. Trespasser and Descent were both awful in this regard.
2) Give use the things they mentioned early on in DA:I's development, like being able to yank an enemy's shield out of their hands and leave them defenceless.
3) More combat scenarios like the dragon fight in Trespasser, where I don't necessarily have to kill my opponent in order to continue.
4) Get rid of that Shield/Armour nonsense. They're just extra HP bars.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 23, 2018 9:51:11 GMT
I honestly don't know where are you going with this. What's characters got to do with combat gameplay? How does it affect combat in general? Real-time action gameplay requires that we input specific commands, and the timing of those inputs matters. I don't see how we can do that with multiple characters. Switching between characters means that you're only ever controlling one character at a time, and while you're controlling one character you're not controlling another. That's not full-party control. Controlling the full party would require that we can have multiple characters act simultaneously. I would expect to be able to have one character dodge while another character jumps and a third attacks, all in the same moment. That's what a tactical pause lets us do. If real-time action reduces us to controlling one character at a time, I call that a significant loss of player control over how the characters behave. This is especially troubling in a roleplaying game, where intermittent control can break a character's personality design (which necessarily always comes from the player). Well, that is pretty fixable and all they have to do is to have the same Action/RPG combat system from Mass Effect. That way a player can switch between characters during tactical mode menu. Easy peasy.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 23, 2018 21:48:30 GMT
Well, that is pretty fixable and all they have to do is to have the same Action/RPG combat system from Mass Effect. That way a player can switch between characters during tactical mode menu. Easy peasy. That fixes nothing. We'd still only be controlling one character at a time. Real-time control is single-character control. The only way I can see to control multiple characters simultaneously is to allow us to issue commands for multiple characters while paused. That's the control scheme I'd like for even a single character, as well. I would much rather select actions while paused and then have the characters execute them once time resumes.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 24, 2018 13:22:37 GMT
Well, that is pretty fixable and all they have to do is to have the same Action/RPG combat system from Mass Effect. That way a player can switch between characters during tactical mode menu. Easy peasy. That fixes nothing. We'd still only be controlling one character at a time. Real-time control is single-character control. The only way I can see to control multiple characters simultaneously is to allow us to issue commands for multiple characters while paused. That's the control scheme I'd like for even a single character, as well. I would much rather select actions while paused and then have the characters execute them once time resumes. As I said, they could set up a control scheme system similar to Mass Effect to be able to control companions and tactics and pause. Don't try to over think things.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 24, 2018 18:56:03 GMT
As I said, they could set up a control scheme system similar to Mass Effect to be able to control companions and tactics and pause. Don't try to over think things. That's still only single-character control. If the other party members are selecting targets or moving without my direction - if I have greater control over one character than the others - that's not full-party control. KotOR didn't even have full party control; you could switch between characters, but you could never control more than one at the same time (movement was a particular problem).
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 27, 2018 6:11:38 GMT
As I said, they could set up a control scheme system similar to Mass Effect to be able to control companions and tactics and pause. Don't try to over think things. That's still only single-character control. If the other party members are selecting targets or moving without my direction - if I have greater control over one character than the others - that's not full-party control. KotOR didn't even have full party control; you could switch between characters, but you could never control more than one at the same time (movement was a particular problem). Just picture DA2 with ME3. Action/RPG combat design, fluid and dynamic, changeable characters or to travel and fight alone without being penalized to be a lone wolf, and to input tactics for your party.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2018 6:17:04 GMT
That's still only single-character control. If the other party members are selecting targets or moving without my direction - if I have greater control over one character than the others - that's not full-party control. KotOR didn't even have full party control; you could switch between characters, but you could never control more than one at the same time (movement was a particular problem). Just picture DA2 with ME3. Action/RPG combat design, fluid and dynamic, changeable characters or to travel and fight alone without being penalized to be a lone wolf, and to input tactics for your party. other then the lone wolf thing...sounds good. Maybe not make it as fast as DA 2 and certainly don't copy the mob design...also guard and barier from Inq and you have the start of a good combat system.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 27, 2018 8:41:54 GMT
Just picture DA2 with ME3. Action/RPG combat design, fluid and dynamic, changeable characters or to travel and fight alone without being penalized to be a lone wolf, and to input tactics for your party. other then the lone wolf thing...sounds good. Maybe not make it as fast as DA 2 and certainly don't copy the mob design...also guard and barier from Inq and you have the start of a good combat system. What's wrong with the combat speed in DA2? It was a vast improvement compared to the horrific combat system in Origins.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 27, 2018 9:42:16 GMT
other then the lone wolf thing...sounds good. Maybe not make it as fast as DA 2 and certainly don't copy the mob design...also guard and barier from Inq and you have the start of a good combat system. What's wrong with the combat speed in DA2? It was a vast improvement compared to the horrific combat system in Origins. Maybe a bit too fast. On the otherhand I just didn't like the mashing of the attack button so much. But then not sure if that was a problem with the speed or the amount of mooks it forces down your throats.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 28, 2018 18:24:25 GMT
What's wrong with the combat speed in DA2? It was a vast improvement compared to the horrific combat system in Origins. Origins had the single best combat system BioWare has ever made
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 28, 2018 18:30:27 GMT
Just picture DA2 with ME3. Action/RPG combat design, fluid and dynamic, changeable characters or to travel and fight alone without being penalized to be a lone wolf, and to input tactics for your party. I understand what you're saying. I'm saying that wouldn't be full-party control. If they do go the ME route, I do hope they retain the ability to input instructions while paused. I NEVER want to make decisions in real-time. The decisions I make in real-time are MY decisions, not my CHARACTER'S decisions. Thinking like my character takes longer (sometimes considerably longer if my character is very much unlike me). Unpausable real-time combat is incompatible with deep roleplaying, and thus has no place in a roleplaying game.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 30, 2018 9:15:09 GMT
What's wrong with the combat speed in DA2? It was a vast improvement compared to the horrific combat system in Origins. Origins had the single best combat system BioWare has ever made 😂😂😏 Best to you. But not to others.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 30, 2018 9:16:24 GMT
Just picture DA2 with ME3. Action/RPG combat design, fluid and dynamic, changeable characters or to travel and fight alone without being penalized to be a lone wolf, and to input tactics for your party. I understand what you're saying. I'm saying that wouldn't be full-party control. If they do go the ME route, I do hope they retain the ability to input instructions while paused. I NEVER want to make decisions in real-time. The decisions I make in real-time are MY decisions, not my CHARACTER'S decisions. Thinking like my character takes longer (sometimes considerably longer if my character is very much unlike me). Unpausable real-time combat is incompatible with deep roleplaying, and thus has no place in a roleplaying game. That's your opinion but the fact remains that they need to change their combat system.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 30, 2018 17:11:25 GMT
I understand what you're saying. I'm saying that wouldn't be full-party control. If they do go the ME route, I do hope they retain the ability to input instructions while paused. I NEVER want to make decisions in real-time. The decisions I make in real-time are MY decisions, not my CHARACTER'S decisions. Thinking like my character takes longer (sometimes considerably longer if my character is very much unlike me). Unpausable real-time combat is incompatible with deep roleplaying, and thus has no place in a roleplaying game. That's your opinion but the fact remains that they need to change their combat system. They need either to produce a combat system that allows roleplaying or stop calling their games RPGs. I will point out the incongruity forever.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jul 30, 2018 19:49:16 GMT
Origins had the single best combat system BioWare has ever made 😂😂😏 Best to you. But not to others. That is not to say it was the best possible system. I would still like to see NWN's combat with full-party control. I was particularly fond of NWN's "dance of death", where the player lacked super-precise control over moment-to-moment positioning because of the necessary chaos of melee combat. It's simply not credible that someone in a sword fight could stand perfectly still while fighting effectively. He should have to move his feet and shift his weight in response to his opponent. Therefore, fighting right next to a trap should be more dangerous, because triggering the trap unintentionally should be a risk. Since NWN, I have not seen another game handle melee combat movement so well (NWN2 was a huge disappointment on that front).
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Post by helios969 on Jul 31, 2018 10:26:54 GMT
DAO was about the worst combat I've ever seen...and I've no interest in micromanaging my party at each encounter...though I do appreciate the ability to setup tactics for companion AI. DAI arguably had the best system...it's fun stems from the sheer variety of playstyles and builds. Oddly, I think I find DA2 combat the most satisfying. Sure it was over-the-top, but it was that ridiculousness that was crazy fun...particularly playing rogues and mages. A well timed backstab as an enemy lunged at you was wholly satisfying...and a fully upgraded walking bomb made quick work of those endless mobs.
So I guess a marriage between DA2 and DAI.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 31, 2018 23:38:18 GMT
DAO was about the worst combat I've ever seen...and I've no interest in micromanaging my party at each encounter...though I do appreciate the ability to setup tactics for companion AI. DAI arguably had the best system...it's fun stems from the sheer variety of playstyles and builds. Oddly, I think I find DA2 combat the most satisfying. Sure it was over-the-top, but it was that ridiculousness that was crazy fun...particularly playing rogues and mages. A well timed backstab as an enemy lunged at you was wholly satisfying...and a fully upgraded walking bomb made quick work of those endless mobs. So I guess a marriage between DA2 and DAI. And the animations were horrible, movements were slow and cumbersome, and can't even block, parry, or dodge enemy attacks which is extremely infuriating.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 2, 2018 20:00:17 GMT
I've no interest in micromanaging my party at each encounter. That's exactly what I do want. And I want the combat to go slowly enough that I can see everything that's happening, even in large battles. Maybe we could have a combat speed slider or something.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 2, 2018 20:01:58 GMT
And the animations were horrible, movements were slow and cumbersome, and can't even block, parry, or dodge enemy attacks which is extremely infuriating. Because it was rules-based rather than twitch-based, which makes more sense in the setting. What's infuriating is that people want RPGs to be action games. If you want action games, play action games.
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Post by helios969 on Aug 2, 2018 20:55:11 GMT
I've no interest in micromanaging my party at each encounter. That's exactly what I do want. And I want the combat to go slowly enough that I can see everything that's happening, even in large battles. Maybe we could have a combat speed slider or something. Well, I guess your largely stuck with Origins. You'll not be seeing that in AAA gaming anytime soon. With budgets being what they are they have no choice but to market to the broader player preference.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 2, 2018 22:34:05 GMT
That's exactly what I do want. And I want the combat to go slowly enough that I can see everything that's happening, even in large battles. Maybe we could have a combat speed slider or something. Well, I guess your largely stuck with Origins. You'll not be seeing that in AAA gaming anytime soon. With budgets being what they are they have no choice but to market to the broader player preference. Budgets are too high. They're wasting resources on things like voice-acting and cinematics. Without those, they wouldn't need to expand the player-base.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 3, 2018 0:50:02 GMT
Well, I guess your largely stuck with Origins. You'll not be seeing that in AAA gaming anytime soon. With budgets being what they are they have no choice but to market to the broader player preference. Budgets are too high. They're wasting resources on things like voice-acting and cinematics. Without those, they wouldn't need to expand the player-base. I think you overestimate the number of people that share your highly specific taste.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 3, 2018 18:25:37 GMT
That's exactly what I do want. And I want the combat to go slowly enough that I can see everything that's happening, even in large battles. Maybe we could have a combat speed slider or something. Well, I guess your largely stuck with Origins. You'll not be seeing that in AAA gaming anytime soon. With budgets being what they are they have no choice but to market to the broader player preference. Exactly. And I hope they open up a mocap studio to improve animations and combat design for DA4.
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Post by cloud9 on Aug 3, 2018 18:47:17 GMT
Well, I guess your largely stuck with Origins. You'll not be seeing that in AAA gaming anytime soon. With budgets being what they are they have no choice but to market to the broader player preference. Budgets are too high. They're wasting resources on things like voice-acting and cinematics. Without those, they wouldn't need to expand the player-base. That is a bunch of bullshit ass excuses. If that's the case they might as well shut down the company and go home to do something else.
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