Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 18:15:53 GMT
100,000,000+ stars is a hell of a lot of fruit loops to get tired of. Firstly, there's no such thing as getting tired of Fruit Loops. This metaphor is bad and Jack O'Neill should feel bad. But anyway, I think the metaphor doesn't really get to the real problem with all those hundreds of millions of stars. The real question is: how do you go to these other stars without touching the ones we've already affected? The obvious solution is a prequel, since a prequel allows us to go anywhere. Then the question becomes: will players want it? I wonder how people would feel if BioWare just straight up gave the idyllic retcon solution and gave us a post-war Destroy setting that simply wipes the reapers clean from the setting, but keeps every other faction, including the geth. Personally I'd be just fine with that. It kinda goes with my sad little headcanon that I used when doing the Citadel DLC lol I don't think there is such a thing as the "idyllic retcon solution" though. I think the sheep would hit the fan even with the Destroy setting, geth survive solution because it would still mean that other decisions the player made in the game prior to the ending would have to be "canonized." As I mentioned above, some people sided with the geth and wiped out the quarians, so putting quarians in the post ME3 setting invalidates that decision and would, most likely, make the peaceful solution the canon one. How do resolve the krogan issue. Again, the "majority" of fans might want the genophage to stay in place and want the decision to become the canon one... but that's certainly not all the fans and that decision was made over the three games (i.e. killing Wrex or not, saving Maelon's data or not, and finally deciding potentially to shoot Mordin or not). That's an arc that had relevance and a bit of ability to develop, in game, a philosophy about Shepard that could support either eventual decision. I'd really hate to see Bioware ruin by effectively telling everyone what decision is "canon." It breaks with a "trust" they've established with players about the degrees of choices they offer in their games.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,288 Likes: 50,638
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,638
Iakus
21,288
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Apr 23, 2018 19:27:11 GMT
Firstly, there's no such thing as getting tired of Fruit Loops. This metaphor is bad and Jack O'Neill should feel bad. But anyway, I think the metaphor doesn't really get to the real problem with all those hundreds of millions of stars. The real question is: how do you go to these other stars without touching the ones we've already affected? The obvious solution is a prequel, since a prequel allows us to go anywhere. Then the question becomes: will players want it? I wonder how people would feel if BioWare just straight up gave the idyllic retcon solution and gave us a post-war Destroy setting that simply wipes the reapers clean from the setting, but keeps every other faction, including the geth. Personally I'd be just fine with that. It kinda goes with my sad little headcanon that I used when doing the Citadel DLC lol I don't think there is such a thing as the "idyllic retcon solution" though. I think the sheep would hit the fan even with the Destroy setting, geth survive solution because it would still mean that other decisions the player made in the game prior to the ending would have to be "canonized." As I mentioned above, some people sided with the geth and wiped out the quarians, so putting quarians in the post ME3 setting invalidates that decision and would, most likely, make the peaceful solution the canon one. How do resolve the krogan issue. Again, the "majority" of fans might want the genophage to stay in place and want the decision to become the canon one... but that's certainly not all the fans and that decision was made over the three games (i.e. killing Wrex or not, saving Maelon's data or not, and finally deciding potentially to shoot Mordin or not). That's an arc that had relevance and a bit of ability to develop, in game, a philosophy about Shepard that could support either eventual decision. I'd really hate to see Bioware ruin by effectively telling everyone what decision is "canon." It breaks with a "trust" they've established with players about the degrees of choices they offer in their games. Frankly, the Mass Effect trilogy has soured me on the whole imported choices thing. Decisions should matter IN THE GAMES THEY TOOK PLACE IN, but not afterwards. Ditch the baggage, just tell another story in the same setting. And stop burning down your settings while you're at it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 19:44:39 GMT
I don't think there is such a thing as the "idyllic retcon solution" though. I think the sheep would hit the fan even with the Destroy setting, geth survive solution because it would still mean that other decisions the player made in the game prior to the ending would have to be "canonized." As I mentioned above, some people sided with the geth and wiped out the quarians, so putting quarians in the post ME3 setting invalidates that decision and would, most likely, make the peaceful solution the canon one. How do resolve the krogan issue. Again, the "majority" of fans might want the genophage to stay in place and want the decision to become the canon one... but that's certainly not all the fans and that decision was made over the three games (i.e. killing Wrex or not, saving Maelon's data or not, and finally deciding potentially to shoot Mordin or not). That's an arc that had relevance and a bit of ability to develop, in game, a philosophy about Shepard that could support either eventual decision. I'd really hate to see Bioware ruin by effectively telling everyone what decision is "canon." It breaks with a "trust" they've established with players about the degrees of choices they offer in their games. Frankly, the Mass Effect trilogy has soured me on the whole imported choices thing. Decisions should matter IN THE GAMES THEY TOOK PLACE IN, but not afterwards. Ditch the baggage, just tell another story in the same setting. And stop burning down your settings while you're at it. It is a difficult balance that Bioware has certainly struggled with... how make the moral world-state changing and individual personality-changing decisions they want to portray be only relevant through a single game and still not affect the overall world state/setting and other elements that they want to carry forward. Other games accomplish a lot of it by having the decisions be only about a single instance of life or death... and I personally find those games (e.g. TW3) far less interesting. I like that Bioware's stories have attempted more than that, even if it has tended to fracture their fan base and made it harder and harder for them to write a next Mass Effect game that would please all their fans.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,288 Likes: 50,638
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,638
Iakus
21,288
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Apr 23, 2018 20:16:38 GMT
Frankly, the Mass Effect trilogy has soured me on the whole imported choices thing. Decisions should matter IN THE GAMES THEY TOOK PLACE IN, but not afterwards. Ditch the baggage, just tell another story in the same setting. And stop burning down your settings while you're at it. It is a difficult balance that Bioware has certainly struggled with... how make the moral world-state changing and individual personality-changing decisions they want to portray be only relevant through a single game and still not affect the overall world state/setting and other elements that they want to carry forward. Other games accomplish a lot of it by having the decisions be only about a single instance of life or death... and I personally find those games (e.g. TW3) far less interesting. I like that Bioware's stories have attempted more than that, even if it has tended to fracture their fan base and made it harder and harder for them to write a next Mass Effect game that would please all their fans. Or make the decisions smaller, less galaxy-shaping.
Why is a choice pointless unless it reshapes the galaxy, means life or death to whole species, turn the protagonist into some kind of religious figure?
What's wrong with smaller stories that only focuses on one region of space? Only revolves around the fate of one world amongst millions? Or even just a (comparatively) small group of people?
To do more means having a really freaking hard time following up on it. And ultimately leads to the entire setting being shelved.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 20:28:22 GMT
It is a difficult balance that Bioware has certainly struggled with... how make the moral world-state changing and individual personality-changing decisions they want to portray be only relevant through a single game and still not affect the overall world state/setting and other elements that they want to carry forward. Other games accomplish a lot of it by having the decisions be only about a single instance of life or death... and I personally find those games (e.g. TW3) far less interesting. I like that Bioware's stories have attempted more than that, even if it has tended to fracture their fan base and made it harder and harder for them to write a next Mass Effect game that would please all their fans. Or make the decisions smaller, less galaxy-shaping.
Why is a choice pointless unless it reshapes the galaxy, means life or death to whole species, turn the protagonist into some kind of religious figure?
What's wrong with smaller stories that only focuses on one region of space? Only revolves around the fate of one world amongst millions? Or even just a (comparatively) small group of people?
To do more means having a really freaking hard time following up on it. And ultimately leads to the entire setting being shelved.
Nothing wrong with it... except it was tried with Andromeda and appears to have failed with more people than it succeeded. Perosnally, I like Andromeda, so I must be mostly OK with it. However, I do think the whole genophage question is a brilliant, thought-provoking moral dilemma that I thoroughly enjoyed playing through. Ditto with the geth/quarian war... particularly when confronted with the decision on Rannoch and particularly when my Shepard did not have the ability to make a peace. Deciding whether Geralt off's the few guys standing in front of him or let's them go in order to ally with X or Y just doesn't capture my interest to the same degree. Yes, it makes it freeking hard - particularly since, if all the decisions were brought forward in a sequential timeline, the game would ultimately get unimaginably large with too many variables. Bioware has to find a balance going forward. They tried the "smaller story" route with Andromeda. I'd be OK with they just continued with it; but a lot of their fans are asking (nay, demanding) more of the level of decision making that they were given in the OT. ... and perhaps what we're seeing is Bioware backing off entirely, giving up... and intending just to write MP games from now on. They have been through hell in the last 10 years... I wouldn't blame them if they did just give up now. I hope they don't because I want to see mroe from them.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,680
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Apr 23, 2018 20:58:51 GMT
100,000,000+ stars is a hell of a lot of fruit loops to get tired of. Firstly, there's no such thing as getting tired of Fruit Loops. This metaphor is bad and Jack O'Neill should feel bad. But anyway, I think the metaphor doesn't really get to the real problem with all those hundreds of millions of stars. The real question is: how do you go to these other stars without touching the ones we've already affected? The obvious solution is a prequel, since a prequel allows us to go anywhere. Then the question becomes: will players want it? I wonder how people would feel if BioWare just straight up gave the idyllic retcon solution and gave us a post-war Destroy setting that simply wipes the reapers clean from the setting, but keeps every other faction, including the geth. Personally I'd be just fine with that. It kinda goes with my sad little headcanon that I used when doing the Citadel DLC lol I'd be happy with this solution. I think writing the Geth back into the setting is a hell of a lot easier than traveling to another galaxy was. The Starbrat didn't even explain how or why "Destroy" would kill all AI. It was nonsensical, and easily swept aside. I recall they put out feelers, and fans tended to not want a prequel. I'm pretty positive they said they were seriously contemplating a First Contact War game. That could've been badass. I think that game would've received a far less divided reception, assuming it was not a bad game. In the meantime, they could've decided how to proceed with a "sequel", or post-Reaper War game. Pleased with our FCW prequel, many would've been more ready to receive the next chapter. Without fans ready to riot and up in arms over Andromeda, the entire mood and outcome could've been different. Hell, if MEA had simply been ready for launch when it hit shelves, things would be much different. Usually, one would say that "it's easy to see in hindsight". The problem is that this was easy to see in the moment. For all its flaws, Ilike MEA; but it would've had to have been phenomenal to garner an energetic reception. It's just too different from the trilogy that set the lore, bar and expectations.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Apr 23, 2018 21:02:31 GMT
Firstly, there's no such thing as getting tired of Fruit Loops. This metaphor is bad and Jack O'Neill should feel bad. But anyway, I think the metaphor doesn't really get to the real problem with all those hundreds of millions of stars. The real question is: how do you go to these other stars without touching the ones we've already affected? The obvious solution is a prequel, since a prequel allows us to go anywhere. Then the question becomes: will players want it? I wonder how people would feel if BioWare just straight up gave the idyllic retcon solution and gave us a post-war Destroy setting that simply wipes the reapers clean from the setting, but keeps every other faction, including the geth. Personally I'd be just fine with that. It kinda goes with my sad little headcanon that I used when doing the Citadel DLC lol I don't think there is such a thing as the "idyllic retcon solution" though. I think the sheep would hit the fan even with the Destroy setting, geth survive solution because it would still mean that other decisions the player made in the game prior to the ending would have to be "canonized." As I mentioned above, some people sided with the geth and wiped out the quarians, so putting quarians in the post ME3 setting invalidates that decision and would, most likely, make the peaceful solution the canon one. How do resolve the krogan issue. Again, the "majority" of fans might want the genophage to stay in place and want the decision to become the canon one... but that's certainly not all the fans and that decision was made over the three games (i.e. killing Wrex or not, saving Maelon's data or not, and finally deciding potentially to shoot Mordin or not). That's an arc that had relevance and a bit of ability to develop, in game, a philosophy about Shepard that could support either eventual decision. I'd really hate to see Bioware ruin by effectively telling everyone what decision is "canon." It breaks with a "trust" they've established with players about the degrees of choices they offer in their games. I understand that satisfying everyone is basically impossible, but I am convinced that what I suggest would be the path of least resistance. I'm sure that Destroy with most if not everything beyond the reapers intact would win the popularity contest by a wide margin. The ones that were really hoping for the geth, quarians, krogan and/or rachni to be gone for good could just go cry about it, and even most of them would probably still pony up their rupees to play.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,288 Likes: 50,638
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,638
Iakus
21,288
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Apr 23, 2018 21:05:27 GMT
Or make the decisions smaller, less galaxy-shaping.
Why is a choice pointless unless it reshapes the galaxy, means life or death to whole species, turn the protagonist into some kind of religious figure?
What's wrong with smaller stories that only focuses on one region of space? Only revolves around the fate of one world amongst millions? Or even just a (comparatively) small group of people?
To do more means having a really freaking hard time following up on it. And ultimately leads to the entire setting being shelved.
Nothing wrong with it... except it was tried with Andromeda and appears to have failed with more people than it succeeded. Perosnally, I like Andromeda, so I must be mostly OK with it. However, I do think the whole genophage question is a brilliant, thought-provoking moral dilemma that I thoroughly enjoyed playing through. Ditto with the geth/quarian war... particularly when confronted with the decision on Rannoch and particularly when my Shepard did not have the ability to make a peace. Deciding whether Geralt off's the few guys standing in front of him or let's them go in order to ally with X or Y just doesn't capture my interest to the same degree. Yes, it makes it freeking hard - particularly since, if all the decisions were brought forward in a sequential timeline, the game would ultimately get unimaginably large with too many variables. Bioware has to find a balance going forward. They tried the "smaller story" route with Andromeda. I'd be OK with they just continued with it; but a lot of their fans are asking (nay, demanding) more of the level of decision making that they were given in the OT. ... and perhaps what we're seeing is Bioware backing off entirely, giving up... and intending just to write MP games from now on. They have been through hell in the last 10 years... I wouldn't blame them if they did just give up now. I hope they don't because I want to see mroe from them. That MEA failed has more to do with the story itself being mediocre than it being restricted to a particular star cluster.
And there's no reason why a genophage story can't be restricted to the people of a particular world. Or the geth/quarian war not be limited to a couple of star nations rather than a genocidal war of extinction.
As it is, every galaxy-spanning choice HAS to account for someone else choosing differently. This ties the writers' hands more and more as the series progresses. Bioware's been trying to have their cake and eat it too: tossing out "big decisions" and save imports without regard for the logical conclusion to what that means for the series. Thing is: there have been games, even RPGs before Mass Effect that got along just fine without save imports.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,680
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Apr 23, 2018 21:20:31 GMT
Or make the decisions smaller, less galaxy-shaping.
Why is a choice pointless unless it reshapes the galaxy, means life or death to whole species, turn the protagonist into some kind of religious figure?
What's wrong with smaller stories that only focuses on one region of space? Only revolves around the fate of one world amongst millions? Or even just a (comparatively) small group of people?
To do more means having a really freaking hard time following up on it. And ultimately leads to the entire setting being shelved.
Nothing wrong with it... except it was tried with Andromeda and appears to have failed with more people than it succeeded. Perosnally, I like Andromeda, so I must be mostly OK with it. However, I do think the whole genophage question is a brilliant, thought-provoking moral dilemma that I thoroughly enjoyed playing through. Ditto with the geth/quarian war... particularly when confronted with the decision on Rannoch and particularly when my Shepard did not have the ability to make a peace. Deciding whether Geralt off's the few guys standing in front of him or let's them go in order to ally with X or Y just doesn't capture my interest to the same degree. Yes, it makes it freeking hard - particularly since, if all the decisions were brought forward in a sequential timeline, the game would ultimately get unimaginably large with too many variables. Bioware has to find a balance going forward. They tried the "smaller story" route with Andromeda. I'd be OK with they just continued with it; but a lot of their fans are asking (nay, demanding) more of the level of decision making that they were given in the OT. ... and perhaps what we're seeing is Bioware backing off entirely, giving up... and intending just to write MP games from now on. They have been through hell in the last 10 years... I wouldn't blame them if they did just give up now. I hope they don't because I want to see mroe from them. MEA's decision points did fall a bit flat for me, but I think that was more because of presentation and flat writing. Non-galaxy shattering decisions can be framed effectively. A lot of MEA feels like it was written and slapped together in a hurry. I think a sequel would've improved in nearly every way. As to the canonizing of an ending likewise hardcoding lots of choices: Why is this bad? We've all enjoyed the games, but now it's time for next step, the sequels. A logical design choice would be to canonize outcomes that maximize previous work. Every major species survives. (I think even the Geth could be saved, but I'd understand if they couldn't. A nice homage to them might be the Council carefully and quietly reconsidering their nearly zero tolerance stance on AI. That would be a cool legacy, at least, for the AI who stood alongside organics.) You don't canonize the destruction of Krogan, Quarians or anything else that can be saved. Otherwise, you're cutting off your own nose. Those species are all elements with which fans have bonded. Again, I like Andromeda. (I'm presently in my 13th or 14th PT.) Still, by ditching the MW, I feel like they cut off their own noses. Just like those assorted species, fans were attached to the places and collective culture. We don't have Council Space in MEA. We'll never visit the Citadel or major homeworlds again. We'll never visit Omega or elsewhere in the Terminus Systems. We'll never get to see the other cool places in the MW that we hadn't yet discovered. We can visit new, Andromeda proxies, but it's not the same. The MW was home and had that corresponding appeal. Andromeda was starting in neutral, and simply couldn't capture enough forward momentum. While I do want to see the Ai's story wrapped up, I would be content with a single game that left them with a relatively safe, secure future. (Or even a big ass novel, to be honest.) Let them grow into something special in everyone's individual imaginations. The only way I see ME having a future as a SP RPG is if it returns to the MW and recaptures a lot of the lost fans. If you killed the Quarians, Krogan, or whomever yet here they are now in the new game? Have a chuckle that they escaped death and move forward in the game. I don't see a viable alternative. I know many here disagree. That's just my view.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,644
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,050
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Apr 23, 2018 21:23:15 GMT
Although it's also possible that they genuinely intended to wrap up the IP with ME3. That would be a coherent design intent, and doesn't have any obvious conceptual problems --- well, except for not having a good contingency plan for EA cramming more Mass Effect down the devs' collective throats.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,644
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,050
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Apr 23, 2018 21:27:44 GMT
As to the canonizing of an ending likewise hardcoding lots of choices: Why is this bad? We've all enjoyed the games, but now it's time for next step, the sequels. A logical design choice would be to canonize outcomes that maximize previous work. Every major species survives. (I think even the Geth could be saved, but I'd understand if they couldn't. A nice homage to them might be the Council carefully and quietly reconsidering their nearly zero tolerance stance on AI. That would be a cool legacy, at least, for the AI who stood alongside organics.) You don't canonize the destruction of Krogan, Quarians or anything else that can be saved. Otherwise, you're cutting off your own nose. Those species are all elements with which fans have bonded. One of the funny things about this topic is that an awful lot of the people who think that canonizing something couldn't work don't seem to be personally opposed to it; the argument often turns on how badly other players would react to such a continuation. I wonder how many of those other players actually exist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 21:40:54 GMT
Nothing wrong with it... except it was tried with Andromeda and appears to have failed with more people than it succeeded. Perosnally, I like Andromeda, so I must be mostly OK with it. However, I do think the whole genophage question is a brilliant, thought-provoking moral dilemma that I thoroughly enjoyed playing through. Ditto with the geth/quarian war... particularly when confronted with the decision on Rannoch and particularly when my Shepard did not have the ability to make a peace. Deciding whether Geralt off's the few guys standing in front of him or let's them go in order to ally with X or Y just doesn't capture my interest to the same degree. Yes, it makes it freeking hard - particularly since, if all the decisions were brought forward in a sequential timeline, the game would ultimately get unimaginably large with too many variables. Bioware has to find a balance going forward. They tried the "smaller story" route with Andromeda. I'd be OK with they just continued with it; but a lot of their fans are asking (nay, demanding) more of the level of decision making that they were given in the OT. ... and perhaps what we're seeing is Bioware backing off entirely, giving up... and intending just to write MP games from now on. They have been through hell in the last 10 years... I wouldn't blame them if they did just give up now. I hope they don't because I want to see mroe from them. MEA's decision points did fall a bit flat for me, but I think that was more because of presentation and flat writing. Non-galaxy shattering decisions can be framed effectively. A lot of MEA feels like it was written and slapped together in a hurry. I think a sequel would've improved in nearly every way. As to the canonizing of an ending likewise hardcoding lots of choices: Why is this bad? We've all enjoyed the games, but now it's time for next step, the sequels. A logical design choice would be to canonize outcomes that maximize previous work. Every major species survives. (I think even the Geth could be saved, but I'd understand if they couldn't. A nice homage to them might be the Council carefully and quietly reconsidering their nearly zero tolerance stance on AI. That would be a cool legacy, at least, for the AI who stood alongside organics.) You don't canonize the destruction of Krogan, Quarians or anything else that can be saved. Otherwise, you're cutting off your own nose. Those species are all elements with which fans have bonded. Again, I like Andromeda. (I'm presently in my 13th or 14th PT.) Still, by ditching the MW, I feel like they cut off their own noses. Just like those assorted species, fans were attached to the places and collective culture. We don't have Council Space in MEA. We'll never visit the Citadel or major homeworlds again. We'll never visit Omega or elsewhere in the Terminus Systems. We'll never get to see the other cool places in the MW that we hadn't yet discovered. We can visit new, Andromeda proxies, but it's not the same. The MW was home and had that corresponding appeal. Andromeda was starting in neutral, and simply couldn't capture enough forward momentum. While I do want to see the Ai's story wrapped up, I would be content with a single game that left them with a relatively safe, secure future. Let them grow into something special in everyone's individual imaginations. The only way I see ME having a future as a SP RPG is if it returns to the MW and recaptures a lot of the lost fans. If you killed the quarians, krogan, or whomever yet here they are now in the new game? Have a chuckle that they escaped death and move forward in the game. I don't see a viable alternative. I know many here disagree. That's just my view. Well that doesn't explain why the choices in TW3 falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Fallout 4 also falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Oblivion falls flat for me. All of them have been touted as terrific RPGs. I recognize that level of choice is more the norm for these games (probably because it's a "safer" way to write them, but it is, in large part, the level of the moral decisions woven through Mass Effect that intrigues me and why I go back to play it in different ways over and over again... just looking for that little bit of dialogue change that casts a different moral shadow on the choice). I never had any difficulty with allowing Bioware to "ditch" the Milky Way setting in order to allow them to "escape" the conumdrum of the ME3's endings. I'd like to allow them to finish that escape and come back to a Milky Way changed enough by time and events after ME3 that they can still "easter egg" what each of us decided in ME3 without declaring that a certain percentage of those choices made in the OT were "wrong" (not canon). As I've said, I PREFER temporarily losing and altering that setting to losing those choices and having to "abandon" those Shepards I've played who invariably made what would be non-canon choices (because they were choices not popular with the majority). I'd hate to go back to play the OT after they canonize all the choices and try to justify playing it without trying to match their canon. It would probably mean that I would not play the OT again after that point. I don't expect you to understand that... I don't understand why it seems to be such a skin off your nose to see the Milky Way advanced in time by 600 or so years that you're so adament that I'm the one being stubborn here.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,680
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Apr 23, 2018 21:54:46 GMT
MEA's decision points did fall a bit flat for me, but I think that was more because of presentation and flat writing. Non-galaxy shattering decisions can be framed effectively. A lot of MEA feels like it was written and slapped together in a hurry. I think a sequel would've improved in nearly every way. As to the canonizing of an ending likewise hardcoding lots of choices: Why is this bad? We've all enjoyed the games, but now it's time for next step, the sequels. A logical design choice would be to canonize outcomes that maximize previous work. Every major species survives. (I think even the Geth could be saved, but I'd understand if they couldn't. A nice homage to them might be the Council carefully and quietly reconsidering their nearly zero tolerance stance on AI. That would be a cool legacy, at least, for the AI who stood alongside organics.) You don't canonize the destruction of Krogan, Quarians or anything else that can be saved. Otherwise, you're cutting off your own nose. Those species are all elements with which fans have bonded. Again, I like Andromeda. (I'm presently in my 13th or 14th PT.) Still, by ditching the MW, I feel like they cut off their own noses. Just like those assorted species, fans were attached to the places and collective culture. We don't have Council Space in MEA. We'll never visit the Citadel or major homeworlds again. We'll never visit Omega or elsewhere in the Terminus Systems. We'll never get to see the other cool places in the MW that we hadn't yet discovered. We can visit new, Andromeda proxies, but it's not the same. The MW was home and had that corresponding appeal. Andromeda was starting in neutral, and simply couldn't capture enough forward momentum. While I do want to see the Ai's story wrapped up, I would be content with a single game that left them with a relatively safe, secure future. Let them grow into something special in everyone's individual imaginations. The only way I see ME having a future as a SP RPG is if it returns to the MW and recaptures a lot of the lost fans. If you killed the quarians, krogan, or whomever yet here they are now in the new game? Have a chuckle that they escaped death and move forward in the game. I don't see a viable alternative. I know many here disagree. That's just my view. Well that doesn't explain why the choices in TW3 falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Fallout 4 also falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Oblivion falls flat for me. All of them have been touted as terrific RPGs. I recognize that level of choice is more the norm for these games (probably because it's a "safer" way to write them, but it is, in large part, the level of the moral decisions woven through Mass Effect that intrigues me and why I go back to play it in different ways over and over again... just looking for that little bit of dialogue change that casts a different moral shadow on the choice). I never had any difficulty with allowing Bioware to "ditch" the Milky Way setting in order to allow them to "escape" the conumdrum of the ME3's endings. I'd like to allow them to finish that escape and come back to a Milky Way changed enough by time and events after ME3 that they can still "easter egg" what each of us decided in ME3 without declaring that a certain percentage of those choices made in the OT were "wrong" (not canon). As I've said, I PREFER temporarily losing and altering that setting to losing those choices and having to "abandon" those Shepards I've played who invariably made what would be non-canon choices (because they were choices not popular with the majority). I'd hate to go back to play the OT after they canonize all the choices and try to justify playing it without trying to match their canon. It would probably mean that I would not play the OT again after that point. I don't expect you to understand that... I don't understand why it seems to be such a skin off your nose to see the Milky Way advanced in time by 600 or so years that you're so adament that I'm the one being stubborn here.I agree regarding the choices. ME was so unique. Importing all of those variables across games was so engrossing and fun. I think it created a lot of production issues, though, so I'm okay with them scaling it back if they feel that they need to do so. I'm confident that they can do it better than they did in MEA. Referencing the bolded part, I'm sorry you feel that way. I wasn't trying to browbeat you with any of my opinions. I actually repeatedly try to emphasize "this is just my take". I know you feel differently. That's not a problem for me. I'm not looking for an echo chamber; just other fans who enjoy talking Mass Effect. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise. Specificaly regarding the 600 year jump idea, I'm pretty certain that my last comment on that idea was that you make some good points. When I say "I'd prefer", that's different from saying "It would be best if..." I tried to make it clear that my near-future hang-up was a highly personal, and likely not reasonable, preference. It's not some adamant stance I've assumed in regard to future games. I went along for Andromeda, and I thought all along that that trip was a terrible idea. I'm pretty flexible with the details.
|
|
inherit
7106
0
4,137
samhain444
1,669
April 2017
samhain444
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by samhain444 on Apr 23, 2018 22:09:27 GMT
As to the canonizing of an ending likewise hardcoding lots of choices: Why is this bad? We've all enjoyed the games, but now it's time for next step, the sequels. A logical design choice would be to canonize outcomes that maximize previous work. Every major species survives. (I think even the Geth could be saved, but I'd understand if they couldn't. A nice homage to them might be the Council carefully and quietly reconsidering their nearly zero tolerance stance on AI. That would be a cool legacy, at least, for the AI who stood alongside organics.) You don't canonize the destruction of Krogan, Quarians or anything else that can be saved. Otherwise, you're cutting off your own nose. Those species are all elements with which fans have bonded. One of the funny things about this topic is that an awful lot of the people who think that canonizing something couldn't work don't seem to be personally opposed to it; the argument often turns on how badly other players would react to such a continuation. I wonder how many of those other players actually exist. I don't have a problem with it and, you're right, it's usually used as the de facto excuse for why it shouildn't happen but, as long as it's well written and makes sense, if they, say, chose "Control" as canon as opposed to "Destroy", and the way they wrote it was excellent, I'd be on board. My preference is still a well developed sequel to Mass Effect Andromeda but I'd rather have "canon ME3 ending" version than nothing if done right.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 22:10:52 GMT
Well that doesn't explain why the choices in TW3 falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Fallout 4 also falls flat for me. It doesn't explain why Oblivion falls flat for me. All of them have been touted as terrific RPGs. I recognize that level of choice is more the norm for these games (probably because it's a "safer" way to write them, but it is, in large part, the level of the moral decisions woven through Mass Effect that intrigues me and why I go back to play it in different ways over and over again... just looking for that little bit of dialogue change that casts a different moral shadow on the choice). I never had any difficulty with allowing Bioware to "ditch" the Milky Way setting in order to allow them to "escape" the conumdrum of the ME3's endings. I'd like to allow them to finish that escape and come back to a Milky Way changed enough by time and events after ME3 that they can still "easter egg" what each of us decided in ME3 without declaring that a certain percentage of those choices made in the OT were "wrong" (not canon). As I've said, I PREFER temporarily losing and altering that setting to losing those choices and having to "abandon" those Shepards I've played who invariably made what would be non-canon choices (because they were choices not popular with the majority). I'd hate to go back to play the OT after they canonize all the choices and try to justify playing it without trying to match their canon. It would probably mean that I would not play the OT again after that point. I don't expect you to understand that... I don't understand why it seems to be such a skin off your nose to see the Milky Way advanced in time by 600 or so years that you're so adament that I'm the one being stubborn here.I agree regarding the choices. ME was so unique. Importing all of those variables across games was so engrossing and fun. I think it created a lot of production issues, though, so I'm okay with them scaling it back if they feel that they need to do so. I'm confident that they can do it better than they did in MEA. Referencing the bolded part, I'm sorry you feel that way. I wasn't trying to browbeat you with any of my opinions. I actually repeatedly try to emphasize "this is just my take". I know you feel differently. That's not a problem for me. I'm not looking for an echo chamber; just other fans who enjoy talking Mass Effect. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise. Specificaly regarding the 600 year jump idea, I'm pretty certain that my last comment on that idea was that you make some good points. When I say "I'd prefer", that's different from saying "It would be best if..." I tried to make it clear that my near-future hang-up was a highly personal, and likely not reasonable, preference. It's not some adamant stance I've assumed in regard to future games. I went along for Andromeda, and I thought all along that that trip was a terrible idea. I'm pretty flexible with the details. No worries. I borught it up only because it illustrates that nature of the deadlock between the "factions" of fans on this site. This isn't ever going to be resolved unless all sides give a little ground.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,680
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Apr 23, 2018 22:16:16 GMT
I agree regarding the choices. ME was so unique. Importing all of those variables across games was so engrossing and fun. I think it created a lot of production issues, though, so I'm okay with them scaling it back if they feel that they need to do so. I'm confident that they can do it better than they did in MEA. Referencing the bolded part, I'm sorry you feel that way. I wasn't trying to browbeat you with any of my opinions. I actually repeatedly try to emphasize "this is just my take". I know you feel differently. That's not a problem for me. I'm not looking for an echo chamber; just other fans who enjoy talking Mass Effect. Sorry if I made it seem otherwise. Specificaly regarding the 600 year jump idea, I'm pretty certain that my last comment on that idea was that you make some good points. When I say "I'd prefer", that's different from saying "It would be best if..." I tried to make it clear that my near-future hang-up was a highly personal, and likely not reasonable, preference. It's not some adamant stance I've assumed in regard to future games. I went along for Andromeda, and I thought all along that that trip was a terrible idea. I'm pretty flexible with the details. No worries. I borught it up only because it illustrates that nature of the deadlock between the "factions" of fans on this site. This isn't ever going to be resolved unless all sides give a little ground. And this is the fanbase that BioWare is hoping to please while always growing said base. They rolled the dice with MEA and failed (but not due simply to the shift in setting). I like the game more than I'd feared. Others, unfortunately, liked it less than they'd hoped. I feel bad for the individual creatives who get caught in the middle of the online crapstorm. I hope they get to take another shot at ME, regardless of the exact specifics of the setting.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
26,293
themikefest
15,635
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Apr 23, 2018 22:32:00 GMT
"Ah yes, choices. We've dismissed that claim"
Is it certain choices that would bother people? Or is it any choice that the player can make no matter how insignificant it is?
It wouldn't bother me if Bioware decided the genophage is cured even though I don't cure it. All I would do is refer to what the guy said to the kid. The details have changed over time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 22:47:41 GMT
"Ah yes, choices. We've dismissed that claim" Is it certain choices that would bother people? Or is it any choice that the player can make no matter how insignificant it is? It wouldn't bother me if Bioware decided the genophage is cured even though I don't cure it. All I would do is refer to what the guy said to the kid. The details have changed over time. It would bother me, particularly when trying to replay the Trilogy afterward. I would feel "obligated" at that point to always cure it... even though it may not be what that personality of Shepard would logically do... just as I feel obligated in The Witcher to have Geralt behave "like a witcher" as the lore defines that behavior. I see it all the time in watching Youtubers play TW3, too. I hear commentary like "a witcher would take the money from Bram and not be that generous." They start matching their playthrough to the lore. The details changing over time would not explain how the quarians magically survived total annihilation over Rannoch (my choice in several of my playthroughs) to thrive in a post-ME3 universe where Bioware has declared that they won the Geth/Quarian war. If the timeline advances far enough, however, they could recover even if only a few survived (say, aboard an ark headed for Andromeda).
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,288 Likes: 50,638
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,638
Iakus
21,288
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Apr 23, 2018 22:57:07 GMT
"Ah yes, choices. We've dismissed that claim" Is it certain choices that would bother people? Or is it any choice that the player can make no matter how insignificant it is? It wouldn't bother me if Bioware decided the genophage is cured even though I don't cure it. All I would do is refer to what the guy said to the kid. The details have changed over time. It would bother me, particularly when trying to replay the Trilogy afterward. I would feel "obligated" at that point to always cure it... even though it may not be what that personality of Shepard would logically do... just as I feel obligated in The Witcher to have Geralt behave "like a witcher" as the lore defines that behavior. I see it all the time in watching Youtubers play TW3, too. I hear commentary like "a witcher would take the money from Bram and not be that generous." They start matching their playthrough to the lore. The details changing over time would not explain how the quarians magically survived total annihilation over Rannoch (my choice in several of my playthroughs) to thrive in a post-ME3 universe where Bioware has declared that they won the Geth/Quarian war. If the timeline advances far enough, however, they could recover even if only a few survived (say, aboard an ark headed for Andromeda). There is a canon Bhaalspawn. That doesn't stop me from creating whatever Charname I damn well feel like playing in the Baldur's Gate games. Edit: For that matter, there's a canon Revan and Exile.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 23:03:19 GMT
It would bother me, particularly when trying to replay the Trilogy afterward. I would feel "obligated" at that point to always cure it... even though it may not be what that personality of Shepard would logically do... just as I feel obligated in The Witcher to have Geralt behave "like a witcher" as the lore defines that behavior. I see it all the time in watching Youtubers play TW3, too. I hear commentary like "a witcher would take the money from Bram and not be that generous." They start matching their playthrough to the lore. The details changing over time would not explain how the quarians magically survived total annihilation over Rannoch (my choice in several of my playthroughs) to thrive in a post-ME3 universe where Bioware has declared that they won the Geth/Quarian war. If the timeline advances far enough, however, they could recover even if only a few survived (say, aboard an ark headed for Andromeda). There is a canon Bhaalspawn. That doesn't stop me from creating whatever Charname I damn well feel like playing in the Baldur's Gate games. Edit: For that matter, there's a canon Revan and Exile. Great for you. As I said, it would bother ME relative to MET. You won't replay the Trilogy now because you don't like the endings. I don't expect you should be more comfortable if they declared one of those endings canon, but that's your affair. As I said, it would bother ME relative to MET. If they do make choices canon, I hope they make synthesis the ending one. I hope they do cure the genophage, because I think the krogan were wronged and they have a significantly smaller population in the galaxy at the end of ME3 than any of the other races. I hope the Rachni become allies because Shepard saved the Queen. I hope the geth/quarian war is resolved peacefully and that EDI and Joker live happily ever after. Ashley should be Shepard's LI because of Tennyson and the sequel should be about her carrying on after his death. If they make different choices canon, it will not be the reason I'll stop replaying the MET (I gave that reason above). Even if they throw away all of Andromeda, I'll still continue to replay that game... and enjoy it. If they follow up Andromeda with a sequel game, I'd love it and likely buy it in an instant. For one thing, we've never been given as much range to change Young Ryder's personality - no renegade or paragon, so I know I'm good with "happy-go-lucky kid." To purchase a future MET game, I'd have to wait to see what sort of game they make. If they remake the Trilogy, I would definitely not be interested unless something happens that precludes me playing the original. (ETA: If they do a remake that waters down the choices we were given in the original and/or use that remake to declare a canon choice for those decisions, I'm certain I would never buy it... which should go without saying because it would be for the same reason I gave above for no longer being interested in replaying the Trilogy.) i'm done here.
|
|
inherit
ღ Voice of Reason
169
0
17,680
Element Zero
7,433
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Element Zero on Apr 23, 2018 23:28:32 GMT
There is a canon Bhaalspawn. That doesn't stop me from creating whatever Charname I damn well feel like playing in the Baldur's Gate games. Edit: For that matter, there's a canon Revan and Exile. Great for you. As I said, it would bother ME relative to MET. If they do make choices canon, I hope they make synthesis the ending one. I hope they do cure the genophage, because I think the krogan were wronged and they have a significantly smaller population in the galaxy at the end of ME3 than any of the other races. I hope the Rachni become allies because Shepard saved the Queen. I hope the geth/quarian war is resolved peacefully and that EDI and Joker live happily ever after. Ashley should be Shepard's LI because of Tennyson. If they make different choices canon, it will not be the reason I'll stop replaying the MET (I gave that reason above). Even if they throw away all of Andromeda, I'll still continue to replay that game... and enjoy it. If they follow up Andromeda with a sequel game, I'd love it and likely buy it in an instant. To purchase a future MET game, I'd have to wait to see what sort of game they make. If they remake the Trilogy, I would definitely not be interested unless something happens that precludes me playing the original. i'm done here. I think Synthesis is a cool "What if..." ending for the final game in the series. I think that was the intent of all three endings. I do wonder just how much it would change the setting, though, if adopted moving forward. What happens when the Reapers start sharing knowledge they'd always withheld; knowledge from countless alien cultures? The post-game implied phenomenal changes. I'd be curious to explore that setting, but I'd worry that it would be drastically different, even if it doesn't become the technological Utopia they EDI hoped. Conversely, if it were left too much unchanged, I'd be let down by that ending choice. I feel like Synthesis is the ultimate "lots of speculation" ending.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1818
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 23:56:33 GMT
I'd hate to go back to play the OT after they canonize all the choices and try to justify playing it without trying to match their canon. It would probably mean that I would not play the OT again after that point. This. And I really don't get the point of going back to TMW, since they'd need to completely recreate the setting, anyway. They created the setting for the trilogy, and it's done. Finished. Delivered. All of the major conflicts have been dealt with; there's really no setting left there. Relays severely damaged, homeworlds decimated. Regardless of what they do, they needed to create an entirely new setting. I see complaints about game-to-game baggage; were they to try to set a post-reaper war game in TMW, they'd have to deal with an entire galaxy and trilogy's worth of baggage. Andromeda gave them a clean slate. But there's another reason why I think returning to TMW would be unwise. MW nostalgia is not only about the setting; it is also largely about Shepard. We lived with that (setting + Shepard association) throughout the entire trilogy; a MW without Shepard would not be the same, and I think it would be another form of massive disappointment. I personally have no desire to play another game in the TMW, not without Shepard. I'd like to continue in Andromeda, preferably with Ryder.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
Nov 17, 2024 22:23:52 GMT
31,578
Hanako Ikezawa
22,991
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 24, 2018 0:29:28 GMT
For that matter, there's a canon Revan and Exile. That's one of the main reasons I don't play SWTOR. If they did that in Mass Effect or Dragon Age sequels I'd refuse to play those games too.
|
|
inherit
535
0
4,337
clips7
MiNd...ExPaNsIoN....
1,829
August 2016
clips7
Blackgas7
|
Post by clips7 on Apr 24, 2018 2:11:00 GMT
Alot of good points from both sides of the spectrum. I would have preferred Milky Way and with the canon ending...which probably would have been destroy and i'm pretty sure for those that liked the Geth and EDI characters ( i did) i'm sure there would be a way for them to cleverly keep them alive or bring them back Via memory chip (Think somewhat along the lines of Marvel's "The Vision"...he can die and be destroyed since he's an android, but they framed him in a way that he can be brought back through some sort of chip those houses his personality...
I've always stated that Andromeda and the 600 year jump was a bit of a cop-out from Bioware to put a period on the M.W. story and not pursue other stories there in an effort to not upset fans....I was one of the few folks not particularly happy with Andromeda, it's characters and writing was dismal, but Andromeda wasn't a bad game....just mediorce and that is what i'm really concerned with whether or not the next game could be in Andromeda or the Milky Way.
I would be onboard for Andromeda 2 if the story and characters are solid and interesting. With them going 600 years into the future?...there really is no way to venture back into M.W. unless you craft a story of Ryder wanting to investigate the M.W since the Reaper threat,.....but idk. Right now my position is that Shepards story is done tho i did wish they would have continued the story in the aftermath of the Reaper threat and just show the M.W. characters struggling/rebuilding in the face of maybe a far lesser threat than the Reapers....
No way i would want them to touch the M.W universe or the Andromeda universe for that matter if the writing and character development was as mediorce as it was in Andromeda.
|
|
inherit
920
0
1,192
KingDarious BBB
719
August 2016
kingdarious
|
Post by KingDarious BBB on Apr 24, 2018 2:14:22 GMT
Let's see the Milky Way gave us Miranda, and Andromeda gave us Cora. Milky Way for the win.
|
|