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Post by dmc1001 on May 11, 2018 3:13:22 GMT
I totally agree with you on this one. If nowhere else, it would have been a great opportunity to use current squadmates as well as past squadmates who survived. Sort of like Citadel DLC but with a lot more at stake. Then again, Shepard was sent to Omega with no one. That he picks up two squadmates along the way doesn't take away that it was the case. Then there's Arrival. Solo mission entirely. I like how Hackett makes it seem like 2 extra people would be super noticeable to the batarians. Like, all those years of history where covert strike teams of several people just thrown out the window. I don't think that was entirely the issue. Hackett may trust Shepard but not necessarily a crew composed of Cerberus operatives. The man isn't stupid but he actually didn't know the details of how trustworthy any of them were. (Shepard had a loyal crew in the end.)
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Post by themikefest on May 11, 2018 3:22:37 GMT
If you’re curious, it’s during the the first conversation. He talks about it if you select “Krogan Colony” or something similar. I’m sure it can be discussed later, but that’s it’s first appearance. It’s definitely not a recurring, high-profile plot thread. Very easy to miss entirely. I just listened to the conversation. He does mention scouts, but nothing about them missing.
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Post by colfoley on May 11, 2018 5:10:31 GMT
As I have brought up before but it does bare repeating (especially for a new thread) Ryder was a pretty great well rounded protagonist for us to step into their shoes who was also interesting to boot. Granted they still aren't quite the 'gold standard' of RPG gaming (still Hawke) but they were a nice leap forward from both the Inquisitor and especially ME 3 Shepard. A. They went on a journey and had to earn their role instead of just having it handed to him. B. They had inbred character flaws that the player could express and add onto to make the character their own in any number of ways and again made the character more intersting then the generally flawless Shepard. C. Their dialogue options (while not perfect) definitley gave me more control in shaping my Ryder then I pretty much ever had with Shepard. A few tweaks and this system could be truly formidable in any sequel.
On a more personal note while I understand the poor execution and annoying repition, for some reason I still reallly loved SAM. Breath of fresh air from Data and EDI, maybe closer to the Romney scale but then I hink she even went through the "I want to be more human" arc a couple of times.
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Post by helios969 on May 11, 2018 9:31:32 GMT
As I have brought up before but it does bare repeating (especially for a new thread) Ryder was a pretty great well rounded protagonist for us to step into their shoes who was also interesting to boot. Granted they still aren't quite the 'gold standard' of RPG gaming (still Hawke) but they were a nice leap forward from both the Inquisitor and especially ME 3 Shepard. A. They went on a journey and had to earn their role instead of just having it handed to him. B. They had inbred character flaws that the player could express and add onto to make the character their own in any number of ways and again made the character more intersting then the generally flawless Shepard. C. Their dialogue options (while not perfect) definitley gave me more control in shaping my Ryder then I pretty much ever had with Shepard. A few tweaks and this system could be truly formidable in any sequel. On a more personal note while I understand the poor execution and annoying repition, for some reason I still reallly loved SAM. Breath of fresh air from Data and EDI, maybe closer to the Romney scale but then I hink she even went through the "I want to be more human" arc a couple of times. I agree with the Hawke part, but cannot get behind Ryder providing more control in shaping due to the inconsistent nature of the dialogue system forcing me to alternate between upper and lower...and the fact that I had no Renegade-type option that was sorely needed to address the disproportionate number of idiots presented in-game. Protesters in Agroponics (renegade, 30 days of Kett recon work on Eos and then we can discuss getting their family members out of cryo,) stoners false distress call (renegade, shots to the leg...what, they got their "medicine,") Spender (renegade, hand him over to the Krogan,) Peebee (renegade, left on the volcano world,) Liam (renegade, kicked off the team,) and don't even get me started on the Nexus leadership. I want to craft a voice specific to the psychology I come up with for my character...MEA didn't give me the freedom to stay in character. It wasn't terrible...I was able to make due, and it worked well for a couple of my characters, but frustrated me more than anything. With a few tweaks it could be great, but as it sits now it's merely passable.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 11:17:55 GMT
As I have brought up before but it does bare repeating (especially for a new thread) Ryder was a pretty great well rounded protagonist for us to step into their shoes who was also interesting to boot. Granted they still aren't quite the 'gold standard' of RPG gaming (still Hawke) but they were a nice leap forward from both the Inquisitor and especially ME 3 Shepard. A. They went on a journey and had to earn their role instead of just having it handed to him. B. They had inbred character flaws that the player could express and add onto to make the character their own in any number of ways and again made the character more intersting then the generally flawless Shepard. C. Their dialogue options (while not perfect) definitley gave me more control in shaping my Ryder then I pretty much ever had with Shepard. A few tweaks and this system could be truly formidable in any sequel. On a more personal note while I understand the poor execution and annoying repition, for some reason I still reallly loved SAM. Breath of fresh air from Data and EDI, maybe closer to the Romney scale but then I hink she even went through the "I want to be more human" arc a couple of times. I agree with the Hawke part, but cannot get behind Ryder providing more control in shaping due to the inconsistent nature of the dialogue system forcing me to alternate between upper and lower...and the fact that I had no Renegade-type option that was sorely needed to address the disproportionate number of idiots presented in-game. Protesters in Agroponics (renegade, 30 days of Kett recon work on Eos and then we can discuss getting their family members out of cryo,) stoners false distress call (renegade, shots to the leg...what, they got their "medicine,") Spender (renegade, hand him over to the Krogan,) Peebee (renegade, left on the volcano world,) Liam (renegade, kicked off the team,) and don't even get me started on the Nexus leadership. I want to craft a voice specific to the psychology I come up with for my character...MEA didn't give me the freedom to stay in character. It wasn't terrible...I was able to make due, and it worked well for a couple of my characters, but frustrated me more than anything. With a few tweaks it could be great, but as it sits now it's merely passable. I see that as a positive thing. It was too easy a cop out in the OT to just stick with all one side or the other. Sticking to one position of dialogue is not shaping a character thoughtfully at all, but just relying on the "system" to do the RP work for you. It was a problem made worse in ME2 by the way in which P/R points needed to be accumulated to be successful in settling the disputes. I would have liked a few more renegade responses in ME:A, but to give you the sort of definitive options you've mentioned (like leaving squad mates behind or definitive 30-day punishments) would have required a far more linear game where time could actually pass between quest A and quest B without having to worry about what it would look like if a different player decided to do it quest B to quest A. Look at the Danny Messier quest, where we get him showing up on Elaaden and still showing up on Eos and we never see him on Kadara (even though that's where he tells us he's going). Imagine now if the game had to make room for, at an point depending on when the player completed the Spender quest, the game had to account for Spender being found in the Krogan colony, Peebee and Liam had to be found somewhere off the team... or still on it. Or, the game had to account for protesters that had to be working on Eos, but only for 30 days... and what's 30 days in this game anyways. Do we even know how long it takes Ryder to get to Meridian... days, weeks, months, a year? Is it different for those Ryder's who do the game to 100% completion and those that only do the main quest line? To quote Mordin - "too many variables, too many variables!"
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Post by helios969 on May 11, 2018 11:44:36 GMT
I agree with the Hawke part, but cannot get behind Ryder providing more control in shaping due to the inconsistent nature of the dialogue system forcing me to alternate between upper and lower...and the fact that I had no Renegade-type option that was sorely needed to address the disproportionate number of idiots presented in-game. Protesters in Agroponics (renegade, 30 days of Kett recon work on Eos and then we can discuss getting their family members out of cryo,) stoners false distress call (renegade, shots to the leg...what, they got their "medicine,") Spender (renegade, hand him over to the Krogan,) Peebee (renegade, left on the volcano world,) Liam (renegade, kicked off the team,) and don't even get me started on the Nexus leadership. I want to craft a voice specific to the psychology I come up with for my character...MEA didn't give me the freedom to stay in character. It wasn't terrible...I was able to make due, and it worked well for a couple of my characters, but frustrated me more than anything. With a few tweaks it could be great, but as it sits now it's merely passable. I see that as a positive thing. It was too easy a cop out in the OT to just stick with all one side or the other. Sticking to one position of dialogue is not shaping a character thoughtfully at all, but just relying on the "system" to do the RP work for you. It was a problem made worse in ME2 by the way in which P/R points needed to be accumulated to be successful in settling the disputes. I would have liked a few more renegade responses in ME:A, but to give you the sort of definitive options you've mentioned (like leaving squad mates behind or definitive 30-day punishments) would have required a far more linear game where time could actually pass between quest A and quest B without having to worry about what it would look like if a different player decided to do it quest B to quest A. Look at the Danny Messier quest, where we get him showing up on Elaaden and still showing up on Eos and we never see him on Kadara (even though that's where he tells us he's going). Imagine now if the game had to make room for, at an point depending on when the player completed the Spender quest, the game had to account for Spender being found in the Krogan colony, Peebee and Liam had to be found somewhere off the team... or still on it. Or, the game had to account for protesters that had to be working on Eos, but only for 30 days... and what's 30 days in this game anyways. Do we even know how long it takes Ryder to get to Meridian... days, weeks, months, a year? Is it different for those Ryder's who do the game to 100% completion and those that only do the main quest line? To quote Mordin - "too many variables, too many variables!" Don't know about the Danny Messier quest, I imagine Spender's head would be a display piece on Overlord Morda's throne, I wouldn't have cared if Peebee and Liam simply disappeared in the context of a Renegade playthrough, and maybe the protesters thing is too difficult to implement, so...stuff them back in cryo. You say too many variables, I say the lack of variables was one of the more disappointing aspects to MEA. And all those things would have been easily doable had the team not mismanaged their resources. In all my original trilogy playthroughs I never once did a 100% one thing or the other, but it certainly needed a 3rd option...and it's not really about needing to do 100% on a specific dialogue option, it's about having the ability to choose what I feel is the most appropriate response 100% of the time.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 12:03:03 GMT
I see that as a positive thing. It was too easy a cop out in the OT to just stick with all one side or the other. Sticking to one position of dialogue is not shaping a character thoughtfully at all, but just relying on the "system" to do the RP work for you. It was a problem made worse in ME2 by the way in which P/R points needed to be accumulated to be successful in settling the disputes. I would have liked a few more renegade responses in ME:A, but to give you the sort of definitive options you've mentioned (like leaving squad mates behind or definitive 30-day punishments) would have required a far more linear game where time could actually pass between quest A and quest B without having to worry about what it would look like if a different player decided to do it quest B to quest A. Look at the Danny Messier quest, where we get him showing up on Elaaden and still showing up on Eos and we never see him on Kadara (even though that's where he tells us he's going). Imagine now if the game had to make room for, at an point depending on when the player completed the Spender quest, the game had to account for Spender being found in the Krogan colony, Peebee and Liam had to be found somewhere off the team... or still on it. Or, the game had to account for protesters that had to be working on Eos, but only for 30 days... and what's 30 days in this game anyways. Do we even know how long it takes Ryder to get to Meridian... days, weeks, months, a year? Is it different for those Ryder's who do the game to 100% completion and those that only do the main quest line? To quote Mordin - "too many variables, too many variables!" Don't know about the Danny Messier quest, I imagine Spender's head would be a display piece on Overlord Morda's throne, I wouldn't have cared if Peebee and Liam simply disappeared in the context of a Renegade playthrough, and maybe the protesters thing is too difficult to implement, so...stuff them back in cryo. You say too many variables, I say the lack of variables was one of the more disappointing aspects to MEA. And all those things would have been easily doable had the team not mismanaged their resources. In all my original trilogy playthroughs I never once did a 100% one thing or the other, but it certainly needed a 3rd option...and it's not really about needing to do 100% on a specific dialogue option, it's about having the ability to choose what I feel is the most appropriate response 100% of the time. You hand wave it off as "easy to do"; but all the ME games have issues with people and dialogue that triggers at the wrong times. It was worse in ME:A because the game is more open, so the world state at the point the player gets to that location needs to be continually read by the game... and bugs creep in. You encounter Danny on Eos, rescue him 3 times, and he'll tell you he's "done with Eos" and going to Kadara. You never see him on Kadara, but you will encounter him on Elaaden... problem is you can still encounter him on Eos. He doesn't "disappear" from the first place you meet him. Danny is a minor character, so it's something that a lot of players (like yourself) just won't find... but try to do a lot of that the same thing with more major characters and still try to keep the game itself completely open, you're going to have bugs galore and more problems. It's not easy. There was a reason why all the squad deaths in ME2 occurred only at the end of the game... With the exception of Samara, who was replaced by a doppleganger; and Zaeed, who was a DLC character to start with and could die on his loyalty missions post end-game only)
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Post by Element Zero on May 11, 2018 12:09:14 GMT
Don't know about the Danny Messier quest, I imagine Spender's head would be a display piece on Overlord Morda's throne, I wouldn't have cared if Peebee and Liam simply disappeared in the context of a Renegade playthrough, and maybe the protesters thing is too difficult to implement, so...stuff them back in cryo. You say too many variables, I say the lack of variables was one of the more disappointing aspects to MEA. And all those things would have been easily doable had the team not mismanaged their resources. In all my original trilogy playthroughs I never once did a 100% one thing or the other, but it certainly needed a 3rd option...and it's not really about needing to do 100% on a specific dialogue option, it's about having the ability to choose what I feel is the most appropriate response 100% of the time. You hand wave it off as "easy to do"; but all the ME games have issues with people and dialogue that triggers at the wrong times. It was worse in ME:A because the game is more open, so the world state at the point the player gets to that location needs to be continually read by the game... and bugs creep in. You encounter Danny on Eos, rescue him 3 times, and he'll tell you he's "done with Eos" and going to Kadara. You never see him on Kadara, but you will encounter him on Elaaden... problem is you can still encounter him on Eos. He doesn't "disappear" from the first place you meet him. Danny is a minor character, so it's something that a lot of players (like yourself) just won't find... but try to do a lot of that the same thing with more major characters and still try to keep the game itself completely open, you're going to have bugs galore and more problems. It's not easy. I’ve never played another game with these type of bugs. I think these exist only because BioWare ran out of time to fix them. Had they actually finished the game before release, we’d not see all of these rough edges. Dialogue would trigger once and only once; Danny would be found in only one place, and so on.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 12:12:15 GMT
You hand wave it off as "easy to do"; but all the ME games have issues with people and dialogue that triggers at the wrong times. It was worse in ME:A because the game is more open, so the world state at the point the player gets to that location needs to be continually read by the game... and bugs creep in. You encounter Danny on Eos, rescue him 3 times, and he'll tell you he's "done with Eos" and going to Kadara. You never see him on Kadara, but you will encounter him on Elaaden... problem is you can still encounter him on Eos. He doesn't "disappear" from the first place you meet him. Danny is a minor character, so it's something that a lot of players (like yourself) just won't find... but try to do a lot of that the same thing with more major characters and still try to keep the game itself completely open, you're going to have bugs galore and more problems. It's not easy. I’ve never played another game with these type of bugs. I think these exist only because BioWare ran out of time to fix them. Had they actually finished the game before release, we’d not see all of these rough edges. Dialogue would trigger once and only once; Danny would be found in only one place, and so on. Certainly, running out of time doesn't help.... it doesn't make the process of accounting for such variables "easy." For whatever reason, Bioware is struggling with it. (Remember how Toombs responded to the paragon option in ME1 by assuming every Shepard, regardless of background, got away from Akuze with "just a few scratches and a scary reputation" and every Shepard, regardles of background, responded with "our unit." Do we really want to push them to make more problems for themselves so we can treat the NPC's in ridiculously "dickish" ways in the name of being "renegade."? We can exile Spender... if the player wants to imagine his head hanging somewhere in the Krogan Colony where they never go (say, the family quarters), they can. Come on - precisely 30-days of labor at Eos in a game that has no clear concept of time passing.
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Post by helios969 on May 11, 2018 12:38:21 GMT
Don't know about the Danny Messier quest, I imagine Spender's head would be a display piece on Overlord Morda's throne, I wouldn't have cared if Peebee and Liam simply disappeared in the context of a Renegade playthrough, and maybe the protesters thing is too difficult to implement, so...stuff them back in cryo. You say too many variables, I say the lack of variables was one of the more disappointing aspects to MEA. And all those things would have been easily doable had the team not mismanaged their resources. In all my original trilogy playthroughs I never once did a 100% one thing or the other, but it certainly needed a 3rd option...and it's not really about needing to do 100% on a specific dialogue option, it's about having the ability to choose what I feel is the most appropriate response 100% of the time. You hand wave it off as "easy to do" The last thing I would do is suggest what these devs do is easy, (anymore than I would call them lazy...something I hear too often that just makes me cringe,) but it is what they choose to do as a profession (and all the trappings that come with such). I do believe they owe it to their consumers to put together a more complete package. It's not all on them, they have to answer to people above their paygrade. But this is why good management with a concise vision is imperative. Despite my gripes, I still believe it to be a pretty good game and fun as hell to play. I just can't help but wonder how the situation might be different had they had another 10 million dollars and 6 months of time.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 13:09:12 GMT
You hand wave it off as "easy to do" The last thing I would do is suggest what these devs do is easy, (anymore than I would call them lazy...something I hear too often that just makes me cringe,) but it is what they choose to do as a profession (and all the trappings that come with such). I do believe they owe it to their consumers to put together a more complete package. It's not all on them, they have to answer to people above their paygrade. But this is why good management with a concise vision is imperative. Despite my gripes, I still believe it to be a pretty good game and fun as hell to play. I just can't help but wonder how the situation might be different had they had another 10 million dollars and 6 months of time. You can have a "renegade" response without such specific "dickish" consequences. As I said, you can already exile Spender... you don't really need an option to send him specifically off to the Krogan colony. I'm not a supporter of consumerism... when it crosses the line into being unreasonable. You can already actually chastise both Liam and Peebee after the mission. Sure, I'd like an way to make a stronger response... but kicking them off the team and creating all that work to make it possible for them to both be there or not be there for the rest of the game is unnecessary and really doesn't serve to give the majority of players a more renegade response. Also, you can apparently already piss Drack off so bad that he'll leave the team (Haven't managed it yet myself, but the Wiki says it's possible). Why "force" players who want some renegade-ish responses into a position where renegade = total dick. There were already complaints about that with Shepard in ME3. You also have the issue of the Pathfinder ceasing to be the Pathfinder... and instead acting like the Superior Court Judge over the entire AI. It's simply not the Pathfinder's job to determine punishments for AI criminals. In reality, Ryder should not have been asked to make a "ruling" in either the First Murder or the Spender cases. I would have liked a Renegade response to basically tell Tann & company to do their job and decide for themselves what should be done.
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Post by Element Zero on May 11, 2018 13:19:33 GMT
The last thing I would do is suggest what these devs do is easy, (anymore than I would call them lazy...something I hear too often that just makes me cringe,) but it is what they choose to do as a profession (and all the trappings that come with such). I do believe they owe it to their consumers to put together a more complete package. It's not all on them, they have to answer to people above their paygrade. But this is why good management with a concise vision is imperative. Despite my gripes, I still believe it to be a pretty good game and fun as hell to play. I just can't help but wonder how the situation might be different had they had another 10 million dollars and 6 months of time. You can have a "renegade" response without such specific "dickish" consequences. As I said, you can already exile Spender... you don't really need an option to send him specifically off to the Krogan colony. I'm not a supporter of consumerism... when it crosses the line into being unreasonable. You can already actually chastise both Liam and Peebee after the mission. Sure, I'd like an way to make a stronger response... but kicking them off the team and creating all that work to make it possible for them to both be there or not be there for the rest of the game is unnecessary and really doesn't serve to give the majority of players a more renegade response. Why "force" players who want some renegade-ish responses into a position where renegade = total dick. There were already complaints about that with Shepard in ME3. I assume those were just examples rather than specific requests. DAI gives the player the opportunity to tell Sera that she’s not right for the team after a crazy, unilateral action and continued friction. (We can also decline the VS’ return to Normandy.) I think such an option would’ve been welcomed by players for Liam and PeeBee. It’s not really a lot of extra work. If the character gets booted, they’re gone. We need not see them again. Maybe we get a parting email at most. If the devs have already definitively determined to put these characters into our crew in a sequel, that complicates things. I don’t think such definitive decision-making is typically done, nor should be done, before player reception is gauged. They should never assume X character will be liked enough to be desirable as a squaddie in the sequel.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 13:57:43 GMT
You can have a "renegade" response without such specific "dickish" consequences. As I said, you can already exile Spender... you don't really need an option to send him specifically off to the Krogan colony. I'm not a supporter of consumerism... when it crosses the line into being unreasonable. You can already actually chastise both Liam and Peebee after the mission. Sure, I'd like an way to make a stronger response... but kicking them off the team and creating all that work to make it possible for them to both be there or not be there for the rest of the game is unnecessary and really doesn't serve to give the majority of players a more renegade response. Why "force" players who want some renegade-ish responses into a position where renegade = total dick. There were already complaints about that with Shepard in ME3. I assume those were just examples rather than specific requests. DAI gives the player the opportunity to tell Sera that she’s not right for the team after a crazy, unilateral action and continued friction. (We can also decline the VS’ return to Normandy.) I think such an option would’ve been welcomed by players for Liam and PeeBee. It’s not really a lot of extra work. If the character gets booted, they’re gone. We need not see them again. Maybe we get a parting email at most. If the devs have already definitively determined to put these characters into our crew in a sequel, that complicates things. I don’t think such definitive decision-making is typically done, nor should be done, before player reception is gauged. They should never assume X character will be liked enough to be desirable as a squaddie in the sequel. Declining the return of the VS to Normandy occurs in the last game of a planned Trilogy. There are no possible consequences to be accounted for in a future game. ME:A is the first game of a new story. There were 2 possible squad deaths in ME1 and another possible non-recruitment. No doubt, Bioware had to ponder really hard about how they would incorporate those factors into the future games. As it was, some people were unhappy about being forced to recruit Garrus in ME2 after having been allowed to decide to not recruit him in ME1; while others loved the idea of being able to romance him. The ME1 A or K choice was made pretty irrelevant in ME3 in that the differences between Ashley's and Kaidan's political views on aliens did not play any important role in how Shepard made decisions in ME3. It made a difference in which squad mate you had, but lacked any significant impact on the story itself. The Wrex choice was done exceptionally well... having Wrex or having Wreav made an integral difference in whether or not Shepard chose to cure or not cure the genophage. Player reception isn't usually consistent and shouldn't be the be all and end all in determining story objectives. A story that is being planned to run over more than one game needs direction from the developer to start with... before any players see anything about it. It's the players who need to back off a little and get real... have a little faith in the developer that they do have a plan to drive the story forward. A big different between TW series and ME is that TW is based on a set of already created books. There is a general mindset among the players as to how the story will go because the books existed before the game story. In ME, Bioware has no such "cohesion" among the player base to help them with that... all the player base does is disagree... with Bioware and with with each other.
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Post by Element Zero on May 11, 2018 14:18:38 GMT
I assume those were just examples rather than specific requests. DAI gives the player the opportunity to tell Sera that she’s not right for the team after a crazy, unilateral action and continued friction. (We can also decline the VS’ return to Normandy.) I think such an option would’ve been welcomed by players for Liam and PeeBee. It’s not really a lot of extra work. If the character gets booted, they’re gone. We need not see them again. Maybe we get a parting email at most. If the devs have already definitively determined to put these characters into our crew in a sequel, that complicates things. I don’t think such definitive decision-making is typically done, nor should be done, before player reception is gauged. They should never assume X character will be liked enough to be desirable as a squaddie in the sequel. Declining the return of the VS to Normandy occurs in the last game of a planned Trilogy. There are no possible consequences to be accounted for in a future game. ME:A is the first game of a new story. There were 2 possible squad deaths in ME1 and another possible non-recruitment. No doubt, Bioware had to ponder really hard about how they would incorporate those factors into the future games. As it was, some people were unhappy about being forced to recruit Garrus in ME2 after having been allowed to decide to not recruit him in ME1; while others loved the idea of being able to romance him. Player reception isn't usually consistent and shouldn't be the be all and end all in determining story objectives. A story that is being planned to run over more than one game needs direction from the developer to start with... before any players see anything about it. It's the players who need to back off a little and get real... have a little faith in the developer that they do have a plan to drive the story forward. A big different between TW series and ME is that TW is based on a set of already created books. There is a general mindset among the players as to how the story will go because the books existed before the game story. In ME, Bioware has no such "cohesion" among the player base to help them with that... all the player base does is disagree... with Bioware and with with each other. Sera was the much more applicable example. I’m not sure if you’ve played DAI. After she goes unilaterally aggressive and is generally obnoxious, you can tell her to leave the team. Lukas wrote an another annoying character, but they wisely provided a way out for those who wanted it. Employing a similar approach wouldn’t have been difficult. Disruptive to future plans? I can’t say. I don’t want BioWare to be slavishly beholden to fan desires. Their fan service has always resulted in stupid design/story choices. I don’t agree, though, that they would be wise to just assume their characters are going to land. Each ME has added new characters and had others move on to other things. I don’t see why a “wait and see” approach to planning would be bad. I don’t foresee PeeBee or Liam being plot crucial. They could be, but is it likely? Would their respective roles be something that couldn’t be shifted to someone else in future games? I can’t say why they didn’t include better options for venting our wrath on these two characters. Maybe they really thought the gentle talking-to was sufficient? Maybe they considered letting us fire them but decided against it? The passivity Ryder shows is pretty standard for his/her reactions throughout the game. These are just the frustrating, peak examples. Anyway, this is starting to sound like another, existing thread. I’d prefer this one remain positive, or at least not be centered on debates of what did or didn’t “go wrong”. I’m not trying to shutdown or exit the conversation, I just don’t want it to take over the thread.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 11, 2018 14:27:15 GMT
I assume those were just examples rather than specific requests. DAI gives the player the opportunity to tell Sera that she’s not right for the team after a crazy, unilateral action and continued friction. (We can also decline the VS’ return to Normandy.) I think such an option would’ve been welcomed by players for Liam and PeeBee. It’s not really a lot of extra work. If the character gets booted, they’re gone. We need not see them again. Maybe we get a parting email at most. If the devs have already definitively determined to put these characters into our crew in a sequel, that complicates things. I don’t think such definitive decision-making is typically done, nor should be done, before player reception is gauged. They should never assume X character will be liked enough to be desirable as a squaddie in the sequel. I'm not arguing with the potential to boot Liam and Peebee. However, if they're going to do that they ought to take the extra step to beef up the amount of companions available. Otherwise, we have only four companions to take on missions. I suppose ME1 managed if you didn't recruit Wrex or Garrus but it's really pushing it.
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Post by themikefest on May 11, 2018 15:39:28 GMT
I'm not arguing with the potential to boot Liam and Peebee. However, if they're going to do that they ought to take the extra step to beef up the amount of companions available. Wouldn't be hard to do. If Bioware plans to have a sequel, just have the asari and Kosta not in the game because of whatever with the other Ryder and a quarian/salarian to fill the missing spots.The player can finish ME1 with only 3 squadmates, T'soni, Tali and A/K. Look at ME3. The player can play the game with only James, edibot and Liara.
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Post by alanc9 on May 11, 2018 15:55:40 GMT
IF a player chooses to not recruit or fire squadmates, why shouldn't he end up with only a few squadmates?
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Post by alanc9 on May 11, 2018 16:00:49 GMT
I can’t say why they didn’t include better options for venting our wrath on these two characters. Maybe they really thought the gentle talking-to was sufficient? Maybe they considered letting us fire them but decided against it? The passivity Ryder shows is pretty standard for his/her reactions throughout the game. These are just the frustrating, peak examples. My guess is that they decided early in the design process that they wanted to have cutscenes with multiple squadmates and didn't want to have to burn a lot of zots writing conditionals and recording alternate dialogue. You don't have to worry about who's going to say line 73 if Peebee's not there to say it when Peebee's always around to say line 73.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 16:10:16 GMT
Declining the return of the VS to Normandy occurs in the last game of a planned Trilogy. There are no possible consequences to be accounted for in a future game. ME:A is the first game of a new story. There were 2 possible squad deaths in ME1 and another possible non-recruitment. No doubt, Bioware had to ponder really hard about how they would incorporate those factors into the future games. As it was, some people were unhappy about being forced to recruit Garrus in ME2 after having been allowed to decide to not recruit him in ME1; while others loved the idea of being able to romance him. Player reception isn't usually consistent and shouldn't be the be all and end all in determining story objectives. A story that is being planned to run over more than one game needs direction from the developer to start with... before any players see anything about it. It's the players who need to back off a little and get real... have a little faith in the developer that they do have a plan to drive the story forward. A big different between TW series and ME is that TW is based on a set of already created books. There is a general mindset among the players as to how the story will go because the books existed before the game story. In ME, Bioware has no such "cohesion" among the player base to help them with that... all the player base does is disagree... with Bioware and with with each other. Sera was the much more applicable example. I’m not sure if you’ve played DAI. After she goes unilaterally aggressive and is generally obnoxious, you can tell her to leave the team. Lukas wrote an another annoying character, but they wisely provided a way out for those who wanted it. Employing a similar approach wouldn’t have been difficult. Disruptive to future plans? I can’t say. I don’t want BioWare to be slavishly beholden to fan desires. Their fan service has always resulted in stupid design/story choices. I don’t agree, though, that they would be wise to just assume their characters are going to land. Each ME has added new characters and had others move on to other things. I don’t see why a “wait and see” approach to planning would be bad. I don’t foresee PeeBee or Liam being plot crucial. They could be, but is it likely? Would their respective roles be something that couldn’t be shifted to someone else in future games? I can’t say why they didn’t include better options for venting our wrath on these two characters. Maybe they really thought the gentle talking-to was sufficient? Maybe they considered letting us fire them but decided against it? The passivity Ryder shows is pretty standard for his/her reactions throughout the game. These are just the frustrating, peak examples. Anyway, this is starting to sound like another, existing thread. I’d prefer this one remain positive, or at least not be centered on debates of what did or didn’t “go wrong”. I’m not trying to shutdown or exit the conversation, I just don’t want it to take over the thread. What the fan base can't know yet though is whether or not Liam or Peebee's attitudes were planned to play an integral role in the future story. Currently, the fans are just reacting to "I don't like them" but the story can have a purpose to keeping a character everyone dislikes within it's boundaries. We simply are not in any position to judge that right now. DA is different than ME in that the PC changes with every game. As it stands now, Peebee and Liam are quite well developed characters with very strong personalities that Ryder has somewhat universally been unable to reign in. ME used 1 PC throughout a trilogy of games, and prior to the overreaction to ME:A from the fans, it was almost certainly Bioware's plan to use Ryder throughout another 3 games... and have him/her mature throughout the course of those games. There may well have been a real story purpose for deferring "the confrontation" between Ryder and either of them until ME:A2 or even ME:A3. It's something they've done well in the past... Why do we have so little faith in them doing something equally good with it in the future?
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Post by alanc9 on May 11, 2018 16:12:45 GMT
I'd like to see a squadmate like Murphy from the 100. Is that just me?
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Post by Element Zero on May 11, 2018 17:10:05 GMT
I’ve been building a lot of fun weapons these last two weeks. I really enjoy the crafting system in MEA. It no doubt needed some balancing that it will never get, but it’s very fun and effective. I post all of my custom weapons in the “What did you do today in Andromeda?” thread, for the curious.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 18:14:54 GMT
I can’t say why they didn’t include better options for venting our wrath on these two characters. Maybe they really thought the gentle talking-to was sufficient? Maybe they considered letting us fire them but decided against it? The passivity Ryder shows is pretty standard for his/her reactions throughout the game. These are just the frustrating, peak examples. My guess is that they decided early in the design process that they wanted to have cutscenes with multiple squadmates and didn't want to have to burn a lot of zots writing conditionals and recording alternate dialogue. You don't have to worry about who's going to say line 73 if Peebee's not there to say it when Peebee's always around to say line 73. Regarding Peebee, if they'd allowed the player to choose not to recruit her, the way the remnant VI tech skill is unlocked would have needed to go away. I quite like that story arc, and am glad it was included in the final product. IIRC, DAI's Sera was also needed to unlock a combat ability (jar of bees?). (not at Alan specifically) For my part, one of my biggest draws to BioWare games is the depth and variety of their characters, including their interactions with one another and the PC. While some are universally (or nearly so) liked or disliked, there's usually a few who are controversial. DAI's Sera and MEA's Peebee are great examples of such characters. I think their worlds (Thedas and Heleus) would be poorer and less interesting without them, and feel that such characters add a lot to the worlds and their respective games. Furthermore, I think it greatly enhances the NPC's characterization when the writers can make assumptions about which characters will be present and available. A line usually delivered by Peebee might seem out of character for Vetra, for example - and I'm a big fan of these character-defining moments. Since I (the player) am not Ryder (the PC), I can usually find reasons for the PC to do what s/he does, regardless of my own personal feelings about a character or situation. IME, cRPGs are all about deciding what your character would do from a very limited set of options. The options are always limited by necessity; and discussions like the one that's been happening in this thread are often about other options some players might have liked but were not available - sometimes for story reasons, sometimes due to an oversight, sometimes due to budget or technical constraints. I've sometimes wondered just how costly some of the life-or-death choices were for the team that built the trilogy. The Virmire decision ultimately meant that both Ashley & Kaidan would play the same role in the rest of the trilogy. Being able to kill Wrex and the original Council in ME1 meant that they had to write, develop, record, support replacements the rest of the way. I remember my surprise at the number of followers in ME2, and thinking there's no way that all of them could be available in ME3. I was actually pretty impressed by the inclusion of all of the survivors in ME3, and not at all surprised that players who chose an ME2 LI did not get to have them on board in ME3. In any case, I would guess that some of the design constraints for MEA included a desire to avoid writing themselves into the same sort of hole they found themselves in during the trilogy's development. In any case, it is not unusual for a PC to work with unsavory/unliked characters in service to a higher goal. ME2's Shepard worked with a terrorist organization and recruited a vigilante and some criminals in order to achieve the higher purpose of defeating the collectors. Part of Ryder's arc involves becoming a more capable leader, and dealing with team members' nonsense/screw-ups supports that path, imho.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 18:23:22 GMT
Please pardon the double post.
Something I noticed while playing last night -
When I went back to access the galaxy map right after touring Ark Natanus, I noticed some little lights with trails moving around the Ark - usually 3-4 at a time, and I realized they were shuttles going to retrieve the cryo pods. It reminded me how delighted I was to see each Ark added to the Nexus as it arrived. To me, little details like that demonstrate craftsmanship, and people wanting to make their product really shine. It's unfortunate they didn't have more time to fix some of the other outstanding issues - but I really appreciate some of these details.
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Post by Element Zero on May 11, 2018 19:00:47 GMT
Please pardon the double post. Something I noticed while playing last night - When I went back to access the galaxy map right after touring Ark Natanus, I noticed some little lights with trails moving around the Ark - usually 3-4 at a time, and I realized they were shuttles going to retrieve the cryo pods. It reminded me how delighted I was to see each Ark added to the Nexus as it arrived. To me, little details like that demonstrate craftsmanship, and people wanting to make their product really shine. It's unfortunate they didn't have more time to fix some of the other outstanding issues - but I really appreciate some of these details. They’re actually present from the beginning, but that’s how I interpret them as well. It does always seem to me that there are more after the mission. I’ll try to check again this PT, and actually count them. My saying “It seems...” isn’t very reliable. There really are a ton of small details that show that the effort and investment was real. (I hate when armchair experts throw around “lazy” and/or “didn’t care”.) I just noticed such a detail as I was constructing and testing custom pistols on Eos. Usually, gunfire is abundant and then finished. When I first test fire for feel, though, I’m not in combat. I noticed again just how great this game’s sound is. I heard multiple, realistic snaps and echoes as the gun’s sound echoed off of the surrounding terrain. It bounced around very believably. It’s easy to miss things like this when you get 10 hours in and quit because “bad animations, bad writing, don’t like characters”. I find that BioWare games always improve with multiple PTs. There is always too much to see, hear and experience in a single go.
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Post by colfoley on May 11, 2018 19:07:30 GMT
As I have brought up before but it does bare repeating (especially for a new thread) Ryder was a pretty great well rounded protagonist for us to step into their shoes who was also interesting to boot. Granted they still aren't quite the 'gold standard' of RPG gaming (still Hawke) but they were a nice leap forward from both the Inquisitor and especially ME 3 Shepard. A. They went on a journey and had to earn their role instead of just having it handed to him. B. They had inbred character flaws that the player could express and add onto to make the character their own in any number of ways and again made the character more intersting then the generally flawless Shepard. C. Their dialogue options (while not perfect) definitley gave me more control in shaping my Ryder then I pretty much ever had with Shepard. A few tweaks and this system could be truly formidable in any sequel. On a more personal note while I understand the poor execution and annoying repition, for some reason I still reallly loved SAM. Breath of fresh air from Data and EDI, maybe closer to the Romney scale but then I hink she even went through the "I want to be more human" arc a couple of times. I agree with the Hawke part, but cannot get behind Ryder providing more control in shaping due to the inconsistent nature of the dialogue system forcing me to alternate between upper and lower...and the fact that I had no Renegade-type option that was sorely needed to address the disproportionate number of idiots presented in-game. Protesters in Agroponics (renegade, 30 days of Kett recon work on Eos and then we can discuss getting their family members out of cryo,) stoners false distress call (renegade, shots to the leg...what, they got their "medicine,") Spender (renegade, hand him over to the Krogan,) Peebee (renegade, left on the volcano world,) Liam (renegade, kicked off the team,) and don't even get me started on the Nexus leadership. I want to craft a voice specific to the psychology I come up with for my character...MEA didn't give me the freedom to stay in character. It wasn't terrible...I was able to make due, and it worked well for a couple of my characters, but frustrated me more than anything. With a few tweaks it could be great, but as it sits now it's merely passable. I believe I have said exactly that before. Though it is worth noting you essentially DO give Spender to the Krogan.
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