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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 14:59:56 GMT
OTOH, the Citadel government's attitude towards exploring the relay network doesn't seem to have been founded in logic in the first place. Not opening relays doesn't protect you from what's on the other side, it just keeps you in the dark about what's there. True, but opening new relays isn't even necessary to get into and explore those remaining areas of the galaxy when the Citadel FTL speed is sufficient to cross the entire galaxy at FTL in only 18 years. Then, take into account that the Asari, Turians, Quarians, Volus, etc. - all with populations in the billions have been exploring the MW for centuries. There is no reason for them not to have gone to the nearest open relay and just FTL'd there way around to explore the space around every other still closed relay in the galaxy. The Council rule applies to not opening new relays. It shouldn't prevent many individuals from those billions from privately flying into space that is nearby wherever they are... and we know from ME3 that there are settlements in all quandrants of the galaxy. With that many spacefaring species and that many billions of individuals, it's absolutely incredulous that there would not be 1,000s of private exploration ventures happening throughout the galaxy over several centuries. I find the AI line that there was really nothing new to explore in the Milky Way to be the one that is absolutely believable, not the line that says they had not bothered to explore 99% percent of what was just outside their porch doors. Then you have Liara asserting in ME1 that she had spent 50 years digging up every shred of evidence about the Prothean extinction. She can't logically make such an assertion if she's at all aware that 99% of the galaxy remained unexplored by anyone at that point. Instead of believing that all the evidence had been wiped out, she'd more logically believe that she just hadn't yet encountered the galactic seat of Prothean development. She'd be optimistic about finding lots more answers as more of the galaxy was explored. |
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Post by Gileadan on May 12, 2018 15:25:52 GMT
The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases? You mean just because an armed colony ship can't be a match for a military vessel it shouldn't bother fighting back against anything at all? While the lore states that ships are essentially unkillable because they can escape to FTL speed and then can't be chased down, this somehow doesn't work when the Archon ambushes the Tempest - while it's supposedly traveling at FTL speed. Defense turrets can still hold enemy fighters at bay, protect the ship against space debris, or shoot down troop ships that try to land boarding parties. An all or nothing approach makes little sense. Even during the age of sail, merchantman vessels had some cannons despite being unable to take on a ship of the line. At the very least, the Tempest and Nomad should have been armed after the presence of hostile aliens was confirmed. Ryder and gang are just so very fortunate that the Kett never employ any armed ground vehicles or landing craft - something they likely wouldn't be able to defeat with small arms fire. Common sense just had to take a back seat so vehicle combat could be avoided. Yes, there is very little of it in the MET, but given how the Kett keep sending in reinforcements via drop ships, we either would have had vehicle combat on every planet with the Nomad trying to shoot down the drop ships before their infantry is unloaded, or the devs would have had to come up with a different way for the Kett to constantly bring in new troops. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 15:43:07 GMT
The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases? You mean just because an armed colony ship can't be a match for a military vessel it shouldn't bother fighting back against anything at all? While the lore states that ships are essentially unkillable because they can escape to FTL speed and then can't be chased down, this somehow doesn't work when the Archon ambushes the Tempest - while it's supposedly traveling at FTL speed. Defense turrets can still hold enemy fighters at bay, protect the ship against space debris, or shoot down troop ships that try to land boarding parties. An all or nothing approach makes little sense. Even during the age of sail, merchantman vessels had some cannons despite being unable to take on a ship of the line. At the very least, the Tempest and Nomad should have been armed after the presence of hostile aliens was confirmed. Ryder and gang are just so very fortunate that the Kett never employ any armed ground vehicles or landing craft - something they likely wouldn't be able to defeat with small arms fire. Common sense just had to take a back seat so vehicle combat could be avoided. Yes, there is very little of it in the MET, but given how the Kett keep sending in reinforcements via drop ships, we either would have had vehicle combat on every planet with the Nomad trying to shoot down the drop ships before their infantry is unloaded, or the devs would have had to come up with a different way for the Kett to constantly bring in new troops. The geth constantly used drop ships a lot in ME1 and there is absolutely no indication of the Normandy ever firing on a single one of them despite having the capability. Shouldn't they have made a show of Normandy doing something to help prevent the geth from constantly dropping troops on top of Shepard and his/her squad? |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 15:53:37 GMT
KrrKs , minor nitpick. The ODSY is right in line with galactic standard FTL. A few of us accurately predicted, pre-release, the 600-700 year travel time using standard FTL. The chief variable was the precise location of Heleus itself. We didn't know if it was on the fringes or deeper into Andromeda. The fact that they were even able to construct something like the ODSY drive and these arks shakes the foundations of the setting. Regardless of the Reaper War outcome, the galaxy now has the means to break free from the Relay Network. It might take ages, but you can settle systems far beyond the reach of the Citadel Council. The "99%" of the MW currently unexplored is now within reach. It's likely that the Council would try to control this tech to prevent the eventual and inevitable collapse of the current order. This tech changes everything. These were my thoughts as we learned about "going to Andromeda". By the time we learned that the Ai vessels were mostly unarmed, I'd swallowed a lot of changes to the setting, making unarmed vessels a minor obstacle at most to my enjoyment. It makes sense that the Council wouldn't let the Ai construct insanely large vessels and arm them, nor to militarily outfit a populace of 100,000. (Yes, they have both fighters and military hardware, but it's all very limited in scope. Essentially, they brought the barest of essentials.) As I was saying, it may make sense that the Council wouldn't like the creation of a powerful military force; but it doesn't make a lot of sense for 100K souls to jump into the unknown so seemingly under-prepared. I honestly choose not to think about it, otherwise I struggle to accept the entire premise. Verisimilitude can be a fragile thing. The Galaxy Map in ME3 clearly shows that the alleged 99% unexplored parts of the MW are not "out of reach" for FTL travel from the nearest relay. The map shows relays in all quadrants of the MW galaxy. That's the issue I have with that 99% figure. There is no reason for the MW species to have already explored clusters throughout every quadrant of the galaxy and just "skipped over" 99% percent of the clusters that are already near Mass Relays or even adjacent to their home systems. Their FTL sppeds are sufficient to put have put all areas of the galaxy within easy reach without the mass relays; and there are numerous species that have been space faring in that galaxy for centuries. People use the argument that it makes no sense to go to Andromeda when people haven't explored what's close by without thinking that the same applies within the galaxy. Why would the Asari not explore the clusters that are close by their known space, but jump to the other side of the galaxy to explore in the Terminus Systems. Given the extent of ME3's GM, there is really no logical way that 99% of that galaxy remains unexplored. The Milky Way is 100,000 light year in diameter, and 1,000 light years thick. I'm reasonably sure that map is not to scale... |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 15:56:16 GMT
The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases? You mean just because an armed colony ship can't be a match for a military vessel it shouldn't bother fighting back against anything at all? While the lore states that ships are essentially unkillable because they can escape to FTL speed and then can't be chased down, this somehow doesn't work when the Archon ambushes the Tempest - while it's supposedly traveling at FTL speed. Defense turrets can still hold enemy fighters at bay, protect the ship against space debris, or shoot down troop ships that try to land boarding parties. An all or nothing approach makes little sense. Even during the age of sail, merchantman vessels had some cannons despite being unable to take on a ship of the line. At the very least, the Tempest and Nomad should have been armed after the presence of hostile aliens was confirmed. Ryder and gang are just so very fortunate that the Kett never employ any armed ground vehicles or landing craft - something they likely wouldn't be able to defeat with small arms fire. Common sense just had to take a back seat so vehicle combat could be avoided. Yes, there is very little of it in the MET, but given how the Kett keep sending in reinforcements via drop ships, we either would have had vehicle combat on every planet with the Nomad trying to shoot down the drop ships before their infantry is unloaded, or the devs would have had to come up with a different way for the Kett to constantly bring in new troops. Yup. If nothing else, the concept of space pirates should have spurred them to put at least a FEW guns on their ships. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 16:04:14 GMT
The Galaxy Map in ME3 clearly shows that the alleged 99% unexplored parts of the MW are not "out of reach" for FTL travel from the nearest relay. The map shows relays in all quadrants of the MW galaxy. That's the issue I have with that 99% figure. There is no reason for the MW species to have already explored clusters throughout every quadrant of the galaxy and just "skipped over" 99% percent of the clusters that are already near Mass Relays or even adjacent to their home systems. Their FTL sppeds are sufficient to put have put all areas of the galaxy within easy reach without the mass relays; and there are numerous species that have been space faring in that galaxy for centuries. People use the argument that it makes no sense to go to Andromeda when people haven't explored what's close by without thinking that the same applies within the galaxy. Why would the Asari not explore the clusters that are close by their known space, but jump to the other side of the galaxy to explore in the Terminus Systems. Given the extent of ME3's GM, there is really no logical way that 99% of that galaxy remains unexplored. The Milky Way is 100,000 light year in diameter, and 1,000 light years thick. I'm reasonably sure that map is not to scale... To scale or not, there are obviously several well settled clusters with open Mass Relays in every single quadrant of the galaxy... so the maximum distance needed to explored the space in between those mass relays is far shorter than it would take to cross the entire 100,000 light year distance of the galaxy (which can be done at Citadel FTL speeds in only 18 years). There isn't a "Berlin Wall" in place that prevents FTL travel into space where there is no relay... so, in the many centuries the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, etc. have been space-faring species... all with billions in their populations... there is no reason for them to have not explored those spaces in between the mass relays when they've had centuries to do it in. A rule saying you can't open a mass relay wouldn't logically stop that sort of exploration from having occurred over that amount of available time. Rather than questioning the AI's logic about going to Andromeda, we need to start questioning the OT lore's logic on that point. |
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Post by Gileadan on May 12, 2018 16:04:31 GMT
The geth constantly used drop ships a lot in ME1 and there is absolutely no indication of the Normandy ever firing on a single one of them despite having the capability. Shouldn't they have made a show of Normandy doing something to help prevent the geth from constantly dropping troops on top of Shepard and his/her squad? Well, if there's a scene where the Normandy just watches a geth drop ship delivering the goods despite being able to engage, then yes, it should have attacked the drop ship in question, or there should have been an explanation of why it didn't. Heck, it could be a simple audio line from Joker advising Shepard that the Normandy made a run at incoming drop ships and took down a few but not all. |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 16:10:31 GMT
The Milky Way is 100,000 light year in diameter, and 1,000 light years thick. I'm reasonably sure that map is not to scale... To scale or not, there are obviously several well settled clusters with open Mass Relays in every single quadrant of the galaxy... so the maximum distance needed to explored the space in between those mass relays is far shorter than it would take to cross the entire 100,000 light year distance of the galaxy (which can be done at Citadel FTL speeds in only 18 years). There isn't a "Berlin Wall" in place that prevents FTL travel into space where there is no relay... so, in the many centuries the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, etc. have been space-faring species... all with billions in their populations... there is no reason for them to have not explored those spaces in between the mass relays when they've had centuries to do it in. A rule saying you can't open a mass relay wouldn't logically stop that sort of exploration from having occurred over that amount of available time. Rather than questioning the AI's logic about going to Andromeda, we need to start questioning the OT lore's logic on that point. But with a standard FTL engine you can't go more than fifty light years or so without exploding.
Also from the codex:
Citadel Space
Citadel Space is an unofficial term referring to any region of space controlled by a species that acknowledges the authority of the Citadel Council. At first glance, it appears this territory encompasses most of the galaxy. In reality, however, less than 1% of the stars have been explored.
Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light-years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.
Whenever a new relay is activated, the destination system is rapidly developed. From that hub, FTL drive is used to expand to nearby star clusters. The result is a number of densely-developed clusters thinly spread across the vast expanse of space, connected by the mass relay network.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 16:20:11 GMT
The geth constantly used drop ships a lot in ME1 and there is absolutely no indication of the Normandy ever firing on a single one of them despite having the capability. Shouldn't they have made a show of Normandy doing something to help prevent the geth from constantly dropping troops on top of Shepard and his/her squad? Well, if there's a scene where the Normandy just watches a geth drop ship delivering the goods despite being able to engage, then yes, it should have attacked the drop ship in question, or there should have been an explanation of why it didn't. Heck, it could be a simple audio line from Joker advising Shepard that the Normandy made a run at incoming drop ships and took down a few but not all. On Feros, a drop ship delivers several troops on top of the colony at the start, yet Normandy just, apparently, hangs out in the docking bay and does nothing. On Noveria, a geth drop ship delivers troops at the start of the Aleutsk Valley run, and again Normany is left just hanging out in the docking bay. One might say that the weather on Noveria played a role, but then why can geth drops ships fly and Normandy can't. Then we have the bases used during the Geth Incursions side quest line. Two of those clearly drop troops on top of Shepard while on planet. Where does Normandy go after dropping Shepard in the mako? Apparently, too far away to lay down a little fire on an incoming drop ship? You'd think at least after the first one, Shepard would have caught on to their tactics and ordered the Normandy to look out for incoming drop ships and provide him/her with some cover fire. |
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2018 16:22:25 GMT
The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases? You mean just because an armed colony ship can't be a match for a military vessel it shouldn't bother fighting back against anything at all? While the lore states that ships are essentially unkillable because they can escape to FTL speed and then can't be chased down, this somehow doesn't work when the Archon ambushes the Tempest - while it's supposedly traveling at FTL speed. Yeah, Ahriman pointed that lore issue out upthread. The events occurring to the arks besides Hyperion aren't really worth trying to think about. Let's count Hyperion too, since the mechanics of the hijacking don't make much sense. My point was that having the ships unarmed wasn't necessary even if Bio did want to "avoid questions like 'why didn't we just shoot that frigging Kett ship?'." Having guns doesn't imply that the situations presented by the plot will ever allow those guns to be of any use. That can go any way the writers want. We're fortunate too. Bio hasn't demonstrated any talent at developing entertaining vehicle combat. The Mako was both boring and silly -- how come the geth can't figure out that their ridiculously slow weapons are useless against a Mako at range? Why does every turret in the galaxy except the Mako's fire slow weapons? And the Hammerhead was even worse, since it's utterly invincible in the hands of a halfway competent player. |
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2018 16:26:53 GMT
But with a standard FTL engine you can't go more than fifty light years or so without exploding reaching a system with planets and discharging the core. FTFY. The drive charge issue slows you down. It doesn't actually limit your range unless planets with magnetic fields are really uncommon, which doesn't seem to be the case. Fuel's another matter, but scoops are a thing. Gas giants seem to be way too common for standard FTL to be under a hard range limit. |
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Post by ahglock on May 12, 2018 16:30:47 GMT
The Milky Way is 100,000 light year in diameter, and 1,000 light years thick. I'm reasonably sure that map is not to scale... To scale or not, there are obviously several well settled clusters with open Mass Relays in every single quadrant of the galaxy... so the maximum distance needed to explored the space in between those mass relays is far shorter than it would take to cross the entire 100,000 light year distance of the galaxy (which can be done at Citadel FTL speeds in only 18 years). There isn't a "Berlin Wall" in place that prevents FTL travel into space where there is no relay... so, in the many centuries the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, etc. have been space-faring species... all with billions in their populations... there is no reason for them to have not explored those spaces in between the mass relays when they've had centuries to do it in. A rule saying you can't open a mass relay wouldn't logically stop that sort of exploration from having occurred over that amount of available time. Rather than questioning the AI's logic about going to Andromeda, we need to start questioning the OT lore's logic on that point. Even ignoring the limits of their drives, I don't think you are giving credit to how ridiculously massive that is. Would they logically have explored some of it, maybe more than was done in setting? Sure, but I don't think it would be a significant dent in the 99%. |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 16:37:20 GMT
But with a standard FTL engine you can't go more than fifty light years or so without exploding reaching a system with planets and discharging the core. FTFY. The drive charge issue slows you down. It doesn't actually limit your range unless planets with magnetic fields are really uncommon, which doesn't seem to be the case. Fuel's another matter, but scoops are a thing. Gas giants seem to be way too common for standard FTL to be under a hard range limit. Oh, where is this in the codex? |
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Post by ahglock on May 12, 2018 16:41:02 GMT
The FTL combat thing definitely was a lore change that I wish they had explained or if they did I missed it. In the cut thread there were lines about FTL jammers I think. The kett having developed a way to target FTL ships would have done something to add to their rep.I had made an assumption that it was a function of the scourge though not that people targeted FTL drives, that the scourge dropped you out of FTL, space magic dark energy is super dense or whatever. Like when you first met the archon while in FTL your sensors noticed something massive then you dropped out of FTL. The Kett maybe had good maps and laid in wait at strategic locations where they knew ships would be pulled out of FTL. But that was me just making crap up because again they never explain it in game as far as I know.
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 16:44:38 GMT
The FTL combat thing definitely was a lore change that I wish they had explained or if they did I missed it. In the cut thread there were lines about FTL jammers I think. The kett having developed a way to target FTL ships would have done something to add to their rep.I had made an assumption that it was a function of the scourge though not that people targeted FTL drives, that the scourge dropped you out of FTL, space magic dark energy is super dense or whatever. Like when you first met the archon while in FTL your sensors noticed something massive then you dropped out of FTL. The Kett maybe had good maps and laid in wait at strategic locations where they knew ships would be pulled out of FTL. But that was me just making crap up because again they never explain it in game as far as I know. the kett had Interdictor-class cruisers  |
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Post by ahglock on May 12, 2018 16:50:34 GMT
The FTL combat thing definitely was a lore change that I wish they had explained or if they did I missed it. In the cut thread there were lines about FTL jammers I think. The kett having developed a way to target FTL ships would have done something to add to their rep.I had made an assumption that it was a function of the scourge though not that people targeted FTL drives, that the scourge dropped you out of FTL, space magic dark energy is super dense or whatever. Like when you first met the archon while in FTL your sensors noticed something massive then you dropped out of FTL. The Kett maybe had good maps and laid in wait at strategic locations where they knew ships would be pulled out of FTL. But that was me just making crap up because again they never explain it in game as far as I know. the kett had Interdictor-class cruisers  I honestly wondered if it was a lore bleed from someone who worked on star wars. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 16:55:36 GMT
To scale or not, there are obviously several well settled clusters with open Mass Relays in every single quadrant of the galaxy... so the maximum distance needed to explored the space in between those mass relays is far shorter than it would take to cross the entire 100,000 light year distance of the galaxy (which can be done at Citadel FTL speeds in only 18 years). There isn't a "Berlin Wall" in place that prevents FTL travel into space where there is no relay... so, in the many centuries the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, etc. have been space-faring species... all with billions in their populations... there is no reason for them to have not explored those spaces in between the mass relays when they've had centuries to do it in. A rule saying you can't open a mass relay wouldn't logically stop that sort of exploration from having occurred over that amount of available time. Rather than questioning the AI's logic about going to Andromeda, we need to start questioning the OT lore's logic on that point. But with a standard FTL engine you can't go more than fifty light years or so without exploding.
Also from the codex:
Citadel Space
Citadel Space is an unofficial term referring to any region of space controlled by a species that acknowledges the authority of the Citadel Council. At first glance, it appears this territory encompasses most of the galaxy. In reality, however, less than 1% of the stars have been explored.
Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light-years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.
Whenever a new relay is activated, the destination system is rapidly developed. From that hub, FTL drive is used to expand to nearby star clusters. The result is a number of densely-developed clusters thinly spread across the vast expanse of space, connected by the mass relay network.
Then, that begs the question of how they ever managed to discover any of the primary relays shown to be clearly located more than 50 light years from any other one. The GM shown in the games is not in line with any of the mass relay lore that codex presents. If you're using FTL to expand to one nearby star cluster in one direction, why don't they expand to all the nearby star clusters in all directions from that relay. The explanation given in the codex does not logically produce single clusters thinly spread across a vast expanse of space with 99% of the other nearby clusters left completely unexplored. We should be seeing small pockets of many explored clusters grouped around a relay and then huge quadrants of unexplored open space on the GM. It's shown the way it's shown because they wanted us to see a bunch of relatively evenly spaced destinations, so they dotted the relays all over their circular map of the galaxy... and that's the mistake they made in that it does not represent the lore they tried to feed us to explain it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 17:10:25 GMT
To scale or not, there are obviously several well settled clusters with open Mass Relays in every single quadrant of the galaxy... so the maximum distance needed to explored the space in between those mass relays is far shorter than it would take to cross the entire 100,000 light year distance of the galaxy (which can be done at Citadel FTL speeds in only 18 years). There isn't a "Berlin Wall" in place that prevents FTL travel into space where there is no relay... so, in the many centuries the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Volus, Elcor, etc. have been space-faring species... all with billions in their populations... there is no reason for them to have not explored those spaces in between the mass relays when they've had centuries to do it in. A rule saying you can't open a mass relay wouldn't logically stop that sort of exploration from having occurred over that amount of available time. Rather than questioning the AI's logic about going to Andromeda, we need to start questioning the OT lore's logic on that point. Even ignoring the limits of their drives, I don't think you are giving credit to how ridiculously massive that is. Would they logically have explored some of it, maybe more than was done in setting? Sure, but I don't think it would be a significant dent in the 99%. I don't think you're giving credit to the fact that you have trillions of people over centuries of time who are capable of exploring that space. Here on earth (where we have terrain limitations), do you really think it's likely that there are 99% of places within a week's drive of a major 1-million person city where no single person has ever explored in even the last 50 years? That's the comparable situation for the ME Milky Way galaxy. Maybe 1% of places unexplored because maybe they involve an Everest-style mountain climb to get there... but then we also have to consider that space ships traveling out from a relay can do so in absolutely all directions without running into mountains. They don't need "roadways" either. |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 17:16:22 GMT
But with a standard FTL engine you can't go more than fifty light years or so without exploding.
Also from the codex:
Citadel Space
Citadel Space is an unofficial term referring to any region of space controlled by a species that acknowledges the authority of the Citadel Council. At first glance, it appears this territory encompasses most of the galaxy. In reality, however, less than 1% of the stars have been explored.
Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light-years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.
Whenever a new relay is activated, the destination system is rapidly developed. From that hub, FTL drive is used to expand to nearby star clusters. The result is a number of densely-developed clusters thinly spread across the vast expanse of space, connected by the mass relay network.
Then, that begs the question of how they ever managed to discover any of the primary relays shown to be clearly located more than 50 light years from any other one. The GM shown in the games is not in line with any of the mass relay lore that codex presents. If you're using FTL to expand to one nearby star cluster in one direction, why don't they expand to all the nearby star clusters in all directions from that relay. The explanation given in the codex does not logically produce single clusters thinly spread across a vast expanse of space with 99% of the other nearby clusters left completely unexplored. We should be seeing small pockets of many explored clusters grouped around a relay and then huge quadrants of unexplored open space on the GM. It's shown the way it's shown because they wanted us to see a bunch of relatively evenly spaced destinations, so they dotted the relays all over their circular map of the galaxy... and that's the mistake they made in that it does not represent the lore they tried to feed us to explain it. What are you talking about? How do you know where the relays are? It's not like we've visited every single mass relay in the game! Or even every colony around a given relay!
Basically, we have several hundred, or maybe even thousand (known) relays dotting the hundreds of millions of stars scattered throughout the galaxy. And the Council races have settled those systems and the ones close by it (the pnes that have habitable worlds at least) Leaving VAST gulfs of unexplored space between them.
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Post by ahglock on May 12, 2018 17:16:55 GMT
Then, that begs the question of how they ever managed to discover any of the primary relays shown to be clearly located more than 50 light years from any other one. The GM shown in the games is not in line with any of the mass relay lore that codex presents. If you're using FTL to expand to one nearby star cluster in one direction, why don't they expand to all the nearby star clusters in all directions from that relay. The explanation given in the codex does not logically produce single clusters thinly spread across a vast expanse of space with 99% of the other nearby clusters left completely unexplored. We should be seeing small pockets of many explored clusters grouped around a relay and then huge quadrants of unexplored open space on the GM. It's shown the way it's shown because they wanted us to see a bunch of relatively evenly spaced destinations, so they dotted the relays all over their circular map of the galaxy... and that's the mistake they made in that it does not represent the lore they tried to feed us to explain it. I'm not sure I understand your point?
A primary relay goes to one location given that it doesn't have to make sense on where you expand. You expand to where the primary relay sent you which uses Reaper logic. Once you get to the new locations primary relay presumably a close local relay is near by and those can link to any local relay within a couple hundred light years. Your limits then become, time, resources, how the reapers decided to spread them out and I guess active replays. But yes outside of resources like you only have so many people to spread out they kind of did what you say, its densely populated around the relay. They do have large gaps but the map is supposed to be functional so its evenly spread out but that spread is representing 1,000 + light years.
The galaxy map obviously isn't showing a accurate reflection but them being spread out over the galaxy which can just reflect the whims of the reapers. Maybe it was intention to spread out civilizations making it harder and more impractical to try and fTL there the old fashioned way making them more reliant on relays which they can shut down.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 17:26:34 GMT
Then, that begs the question of how they ever managed to discover any of the primary relays shown to be clearly located more than 50 light years from any other one. The GM shown in the games is not in line with any of the mass relay lore that codex presents. If you're using FTL to expand to one nearby star cluster in one direction, why don't they expand to all the nearby star clusters in all directions from that relay. The explanation given in the codex does not logically produce single clusters thinly spread across a vast expanse of space with 99% of the other nearby clusters left completely unexplored. We should be seeing small pockets of many explored clusters grouped around a relay and then huge quadrants of unexplored open space on the GM. It's shown the way it's shown because they wanted us to see a bunch of relatively evenly spaced destinations, so they dotted the relays all over their circular map of the galaxy... and that's the mistake they made in that it does not represent the lore they tried to feed us to explain it. What are you talking about? How do you know where the relays are? It's not like we've visited every single mass relay in the game! Or even every colony around a given relay!
Basically, we have several hundred, or maybe even thousand (known) relays dotting the hundreds of millions of stars scattered throughout the galaxy. And the Council races have settled those systems and the ones close by it (the pnes that have habitable worlds at least) Leaving VAST gulfs of unexplored space between them.
I'm saying around each relay we should be seeing 100 settled clusters in all direction over the 1000 LY thickness of the MW you threw in... not 3 clusters around a relay on only one spatial plain. Then, we should see a huge jump of nothing to the next main relay and another dense mass of explored clusters in all directions from that relay. It makes more sense to say all those clusters are explored in all directions from a relay and we just weren't shown them in game because they weren't relevant. Add in the fact that you could then leap frog another 50 LY in FTL from a settlement at the farthest point... and over centuries with billions of people flying around, you would would have a largely explored galaxy. |
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Post by ahglock on May 12, 2018 17:54:21 GMT
Even ignoring the limits of their drives, I don't think you are giving credit to how ridiculously massive that is. Would they logically have explored some of it, maybe more than was done in setting? Sure, but I don't think it would be a significant dent in the 99%. I don't think you're giving credit to the fact that you have trillions of people over centuries of time who are capable of exploring that space. Here on earth (where we have terrain limitations), do you really think it's likely that there are 99% of places within a week's drive of a major 1-million person city where no single person has ever explored in even the last 50 years? That's the comparable situation for the ME Milky Way galaxy. Maybe 1% of places unexplored because maybe they involve an Everest-style mountain climb to get there... but then we also have to consider that space ships traveling out from a relay can do so in absolutely all directions without running into mountains. They don't need "roadways" either. You have maybe trillions of people, not trillions of explorers. With a billion of star systems to explore that take a heck of a lot longer than centuries or even millennia. Its not like star ships are cheap or exploration is safe. And i'm not sure the population even cracks 100 billion much less a trillion. They never really give numbers outside individual planets. You take a week to get to a system then can spend months, years, decades exploring that one system if it has anything to explore. Exploration is a slow process. And its a billion of those. With maybe a few thousand expeditions over a hundred years. |
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Post by Iakus on May 12, 2018 18:14:07 GMT
What are you talking about? How do you know where the relays are? It's not like we've visited every single mass relay in the game! Or even every colony around a given relay!
Basically, we have several hundred, or maybe even thousand (known) relays dotting the hundreds of millions of stars scattered throughout the galaxy. And the Council races have settled those systems and the ones close by it (the pnes that have habitable worlds at least) Leaving VAST gulfs of unexplored space between them.
I'm saying around each relay we should be seeing 100 settled clusters in all direction over the 1000 LY thickiness of the MW you threw in... not 3 clusters around a relay on only one spatial plain. Then, we should see a huge jump of nothing to the next main relay and another dense mass of explored clusters in all directions from that relay. It makes more sense to say all those clusters are explored in all directions from a relay and we just weren't shown them in game because they weren't relevant. Sure (assuming there were enough spots worth settling within range)
But I fail to see how not showing the densely-populated areas immediately around a relay refutes the codex entry that the galaxy is largely unexplored, save within a couple dozen LY around a relay. The relay network can take us from one end of the galaxy to the other. But only along specific routes and not much opportunity to go off the beaten path.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 18:45:14 GMT
I don't think you're giving credit to the fact that you have trillions of people over centuries of time who are capable of exploring that space. Here on earth (where we have terrain limitations), do you really think it's likely that there are 99% of places within a week's drive of a major 1-million person city where no single person has ever explored in even the last 50 years? That's the comparable situation for the ME Milky Way galaxy. Maybe 1% of places unexplored because maybe they involve an Everest-style mountain climb to get there... but then we also have to consider that space ships traveling out from a relay can do so in absolutely all directions without running into mountains. They don't need "roadways" either. You have maybe trillions of people, not trillions of explorers. With a billion of star systems to explore that take a heck of a lot longer than centuries or even millennia. Its not like star ships are cheap or exploration is safe. And i'm not sure the population even cracks 100 billion much less a trillion. They never really give numbers outside individual planets. You take a week to get to a system then can spend months, years, decades exploring that one system if it has anything to explore. Exploration is a slow process. And its a billion of those. With maybe a few thousand expeditions over a hundred years. Oh come on... look how long it allegedly took Liara to scour the entire galaxy for "every shred of evidence" on the Prothean extinction. It's canon now... it took Ryder a few months to explore much of a cluster in Andromeda. It took Shepard alone only a few months to scour the galaxy for minerals and a whole host of other obscure artifacts in ME3... and he did once already in ME2, purportedly depleting entire clusters in the process all in an equally short period of time. Do you think "trillions" of other people in the galaxy were just sitting back doing nothing for centuries? If you'd rather believe that and question the AI, that's your prerogative of course. I question the OT. The AI makes more sense to me. |
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 12, 2018 21:56:26 GMT
Well, if there's a scene where the Normandy just watches a geth drop ship delivering the goods despite being able to engage, then yes, it should have attacked the drop ship in question, or there should have been an explanation of why it didn't. Heck, it could be a simple audio line from Joker advising Shepard that the Normandy made a run at incoming drop ships and took down a few but not all. On Feros, a drop ship delivers several troops on top of the colony at the start, yet Normandy just, apparently, hangs out in the docking bay and does nothing. On Noveria, a geth drop ship delivers troops at the start of the Aleutsk Valley run, and again Normany is left just hanging out in the docking bay. One might say that the weather on Noveria played a role, but then why can geth drops ships fly and Normandy can't. Then we have the bases used during the Geth Incursions side quest line. Two of those clearly drop troops on top of Shepard while on planet. Where does Normandy go after dropping Shepard in the mako? Apparently, too far away to lay down a little fire on an incoming drop ship? You'd think at least after the first one, Shepard would have caught on to their tactics and ordered the Normandy to look out for incoming drop ships and provide him/her with some cover fire. This is Mass Effect, where common sense in military tactics need not apply. 😒 |
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