Basquemercat117
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 9:02:52 GMT
Disclaimer: i get the fact that the writing for MEA was very week and was incredibly weak on lore. So no need to jut say its bad writing we are all aware of that, just humor me.
It is well known that one of the many mysteries of the the AI is that why did the arks or the nexus have no on board weapons or counter defensive measures. They barely have enough small arms to hold back a boarding party (which i think the only time a boarding party was actually repelled was on the Asari ark.) let alone to hold back any war ships. Now the AI was a quintillion credit program and the benefactors main reason to fund the program was to save milky way civilization. So why dedicate so many credits to leave out such a huge oversight as not arming these vessels just in case. Granted we see these ships are decently built, but they are far from invulnerable. Like we see the arks have run in with the scourge and take beatings from kett ships and still make FTL jumps. But we see with a turian ark though the hull was mostly intact-ish, we see the ship was mostly if not completely disabled with most hands lost. And even the asari arc was heavily damaged to the point of almost being disabled. So why the oversight? they were civilian ships true but didnt stop the AI from violating intergalactic law with using A.I., and also bring on former terrorists, mercenaries, and criminals so AI was defiantly not against breaking the law. And as far as im aware of there is no law in the ME universe that says civilian ships cant be armed with on board ship weapons or counter measures. And what is stopping them from at least adding a ton of armor to the ship to tank the damage.
So my theory: they were originally designed to have armor and on board weapons. This is to large of an oversight to ignore. But they were canned later in production of the Ark and nexus because of the fact after the Geth and sovereign attack we know Alec just the time table to launch within two years. As he already have the capital, he canned the on board weapons and armor to speed up the construction of the arks and nexus to get them out on time. This decision costed at minimum 2 arks and tens of thousands of lives.
What do yall think? Will more come to light with the new booK?
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Post by Ahriman on May 10, 2018 9:40:06 GMT
When it comes to Arks and Nexus the answer is on the surface - Council just doesn't like private military ships. Cerberus used Alliance shipyards to cover their fleet and even they were limited to cruisers.
Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it.
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Post by KrrKs on May 10, 2018 12:32:05 GMT
It honestly doesn't make sense for the arks to be armored or have guns. Their objective is to get the settlers to Heleus, drop them and whatever cargo at their destination and then continue to the nexus and dock there. There is a very limited time the arks are somewhere on their own. Furthermore do the arks have armed fighters on board, this should be enough to fend of light attack crafts. That above is the intended sequence. There are a couple of variations possible once in Andromeda: - Arrival at intended destination without problems. The planet is suitable. Continue as intended. No guns on the arks needed
- Arrival at intended destination without problems. The planet is not suitable for whatever reason. Continue to the Nexus and find an alternative. No guns on the arks needed
- At or before arriving at the destination there is an encounter with a hostile force. The arks have 20000 Settlers onboard, are in uncharted territory, facing an unknown opposition of which neither intend nor actual strength (are the attackers pirates? Is this a scouting party? Do they have a large(r) fleet waiting nearby?, Is this the home of their civilisation or just a minor outpost?) can be accurately assessed immediate. In this case it is better to run (to the nexus) and assess the situation from afar. Not risking the colonists or the ark.
That last Situation means that one ark, with almost all colonists of that species onboard is facing a enemy that may be technologically superior, and have the larger number. If not during the initial encounter, then maybe a couple minutes later. The arks sub-light engines seems to be large, and allow a fast gettaway. The ODSY drive itself is probably not quite that fast compared to MW standard, but can operate longer than other know FTL drives. Since ME tech does not allow in-FTL ship fights, this means that the arks can very likely simply out-run any hostile encountered. Now, a look at what armour and armament on the arks would mean. - Guns and armour cost money. Money additional to what enormous sums the AI had to spend anyway.
- They need space (especially actual mass accelerators need a LOT of space, for the accelerator itself and needed ammunition). For an actually somewhat useful mass accelerator the entire arks would have to be built around that main gun, which directly contradicts the AI's intended peaceful appearance
- Both arms and armour have a substantial weight that limits the Arks manoeuvrability. Manoeuvrability needed to make a main gun useful in the first place, as that can only fire directly forward. Manoeuvrability needed to tail it when necessary.
- GARDIAN lasers on the other hand could have been somewhat useful, but there are very limited positions where on the ark these could be placed so that they have a decent coverage w.r.t. the folding engine 'arms'.
- Any armament needs energy; energy that may be better spend on engines or shields.
The Arks are really better served with strong shields than with guns. The Nexus on the other hand really should have several point defence and anti-ship weapons in place, as that station is unlikely to outrun anything, and intended to stay at the meeting point indefinitely.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 13:13:03 GMT
When it comes to Arks and Nexus the answer is on the surface - Council just doesn't like private military ships. Cerberus used Alliance shipyards to cover their fleet and even they were limited to cruisers. Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. The Salarian ark was boarded. The Asari ark was eventually boarded. The Turian Ark was heavily damaged. They were lucky enough to not encounter danger in the "empty" space between the two galaxies, so never dropped to FTL until nearing their final destinations. I agree though that part of the reason would likely have been the Council limitation on dreadnoughts, which any of the arks and Nexus definitely would have been considered to be had they been armed.
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Post by griffith82 on May 10, 2018 13:22:51 GMT
When it comes to Arks and Nexus the answer is on the surface - Council just doesn't like private military ships. Cerberus used Alliance shipyards to cover their fleet and even they were limited to cruisers. Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. The Salarian ark was boarded. The Asari ark was eventually boarded. The Turian Ark was heavily damaged. They were lucky enough to not encounter danger in the "empty" space between the two galaxies, so never dropped to FTL until nearing their final destinations. I agree though that part of the reason would likely have been the Council limitation on dreadnoughts, which any of the arks and Nexus definitely would have been considered to be had they been armed. Yeah they had already broken several laws but they didn’t need to risk the full wrath of the council.
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Post by Ahriman on May 10, 2018 13:38:38 GMT
When it comes to Arks and Nexus the answer is on the surface - Council just doesn't like private military ships. Cerberus used Alliance shipyards to cover their fleet and even they were limited to cruisers. Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. The Salarian ark was boarded. The Asari ark was eventually boarded. The Turian Ark was heavily damaged. That's what I said? The thing is that ME FTL makes a ship practically invincible and it doesn't need to "wind up" either.
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Post by themikefest on May 10, 2018 13:51:13 GMT
The ships never needed main guns. Just have a defense system put in place that when encountering enemy attacks, the system automatically fires on the attackers. Having that might give the ship enough time to get to ftl to avoid taking more damage
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 13:52:41 GMT
The Salarian ark was boarded. The Asari ark was eventually boarded. The Turian Ark was heavily damaged. That's what I said? The thing is that ME FTL makes a ship practically invincible and it doesn't need to "wind up" either.
Sorry, I misread your comment... damn my failing eyesight. I thought I saw "were not boarded."
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Post by alanc9 on May 10, 2018 16:53:34 GMT
The window for an armed ark to actually make a difference is very small. For the vast majority of an intelligent race's history it will either have no or minimal space combat capability, or will completely outclass any conceivable ark. In the former case you don't need to care about them being hostile, in the latter case you're dead meat if they're hostile.
It just so happens that the AI blundered into a situation where armed arks would have been useful, of course -- the kett are an expeditionary force rather than a serious navy with the full support of their empire, and don't seem to have all that much space combat power on hand.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 10, 2018 17:58:43 GMT
Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. Not too much of a stretch. If anything was known about the Collectors and their connection to the Reapers, as well as what happened to the Alpha Relay and why, that's a good enough reason to leave immediately.
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Post by griffith82 on May 10, 2018 18:09:11 GMT
Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. Not too much of a stretch. If anything was known about the Collectors and their connection to the Reapers, as well as what happened to the Alpha Relay and why, that's a good enough reason to leave immediately. Exactly.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 19:30:55 GMT
I've wondered how gardian lasers (or other defensive strategies) might fare versus the scourge. Had they been equipped and set to fire automatically, what might have happened? I would expect it would have had little effect to possibly negative effect, especially if it broke up the tendrils of the scourge into smaller pieces or somesuch.
I would assume the Ai shuttles were armed - Cortez certainly used them to good effect in ME3. They also had some fighters.
I think the Ai's resources were pretty much tapped out with the Nexus, Arks, and other equipment and supplies. You'd need to have a pretty big military fleet on top of all of that in order for it to make much difference - and if you needed that, you'd likely be in over your head, anyway.
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Post by Ahriman on May 10, 2018 20:49:05 GMT
Why all these Arks were boarded in the first place is another question, since by lore they were supposed to enter FTL on danger. Guess the answer is not to think about it. Not too much of a stretch. If anything was known about the Collectors and their connection to the Reapers, as well as what happened to the Alpha Relay and why, that's a good enough reason to leave immediately. Eh, what? I was talking about them being captured by Kett.
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Post by Basquemercat117 on May 10, 2018 22:13:45 GMT
ok you could make an argument for they didnt need a dreadnought gun, or even ship to ship weapons. But there is no defense matrix? no point defense like guardian lasers? nothing? Sure they had "fighter support" but there isnt anything indicating that those fighters did anything productive. And how many fighters did they had? a few, maybe a dozen per ark? thats not enough to actually repel anything but a small boarding party or smaller fighters. And you cant just say they werent expecting alien life, they had protocols already set in place, they were expecting to deal with advanced life forms. Also what is the point of being together with the other arks and nexus as a "defense". If none of them are armed and their armor wasnt strong enough to withstand a battle,so their "defense" which would only give comfort by the thought of they would be dying together. With just running away: where do you run away to? the milky way? that aint happening. You are running away in a cage, and it isnt that hard to track a ship in the heleus cluster like with the Asari ark. It isnt a permanent solution.
The dreadnought thing isnt something i considered though, but im not sure how the galaxy defined "dreadnought". was it any ship over 800 meters we a main gun? was it any intended warship longer than 1000m ? But honestly they could easily find a way around it, like not being a government that rule didnt apply. Or callling it a carrier or a lightly armed transport vessels. It wouldnt be too hard to find a loop hole, i mean the already were working and making like 5 different A.I. units which the council would hammer down on much harder of your ship being considered a "dreadnought". not to mention all the other rules they didnt follow so why not add some armament to at least protect yourself.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 10, 2018 22:43:26 GMT
The Salarian ark was boarded. The Asari ark was eventually boarded. The Turian Ark was heavily damaged. They were lucky enough to not encounter danger in the "empty" space between the two galaxies, so never dropped to FTL until nearing their final destinations. I agree though that part of the reason would likely have been the Council limitation on dreadnoughts, which any of the arks and Nexus definitely would have been considered to be had they been armed. Yeah they had already broken several laws but they didn’t need to risk the full wrath of the council. Full wrath of the Council? media.tenor.co/images/a1ce1d92b9933dbc28e93e227394972d/raw Those spineless curs don't have an millimetre of wrath in their spineless bodies.😈
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Post by griffith82 on May 10, 2018 23:05:55 GMT
I’m not surprised you think that. I’ve never agreed with your view on them so no surprise here.
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Post by Son of Dorn on May 10, 2018 23:14:32 GMT
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Post by dmc1001 on May 11, 2018 3:20:34 GMT
Not too much of a stretch. If anything was known about the Collectors and their connection to the Reapers, as well as what happened to the Alpha Relay and why, that's a good enough reason to leave immediately. Eh, what? I was talking about them being captured by Kett. Hah, me misreading. I was reading boarding rather than being boarded. Quite different things. I feel like this is the second time you've been misquoted just the past few days.
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Post by Element Zero on May 12, 2018 6:21:39 GMT
KrrKs , minor nitpick. The ODSY is right in line with galactic standard FTL. A few of us accurately predicted, pre-release, the 600-700 year travel time using standard FTL. The chief variable was the precise location of Heleus itself. We didn't know if it was on the fringes or deeper into Andromeda. The fact that they were even able to construct something like the ODSY drive and these arks shakes the foundations of the setting. Regardless of the Reaper War outcome, the galaxy now has the means to break free from the Relay Network. It might take ages, but you can settle systems far beyond the reach of the Citadel Council. The "99%" of the MW currently unexplored is now within reach. It's likely that the Council would try to control this tech to prevent the eventual and inevitable collapse of the current order. This tech changes everything. These were my thoughts as we learned about "going to Andromeda". By the time we learned that the Ai vessels were mostly unarmed, I'd swallowed a lot of changes to the setting, making unarmed vessels a minor obstacle at most to my enjoyment. It makes sense that the Council wouldn't let the Ai construct insanely large vessels and arm them, nor to militarily outfit a populace of 100,000. (Yes, they have both fighters and military hardware, but it's all very limited in scope. Essentially, they brought the barest of essentials.) As I was saying, it may make sense that the Council wouldn't like the creation of a powerful military force; but it doesn't make a lot of sense for 100K souls to jump into the unknown so seemingly under-prepared. I honestly choose not to think about it, otherwise I struggle to accept the entire premise. Verisimilitude can be a fragile thing.
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Post by Gileadan on May 12, 2018 7:26:54 GMT
An armed colony ship is about as close to a military vessel of the same size as a van with SMGs taped to the sides is to a tank. It's a completely different thing.
The Nexus and the Arks, let alone the Tempest and the Nomad being unarmed - and remaining unarmed after their arrival in Heleus - is one of these almost comical displays of incompetence just like the absence of solar panels. "OMG power is running out what are we going to do?" It appears that the Andromeda Initiative only ever planned for one possible outcome - everything going as well as they hoped without any trouble or delay.
Defense turrets could have been manufactured with Andromeda resources after their arrival, just like all the guns and armor sets you get to build, but that didn't happen. BioWare didn't include vehicular combat in the game, and they likely wanted to avoid questions like "why didn't we just shoot that frigging Kett ship?"
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2018 14:19:47 GMT
The fact that they were even able to construct something like the ODSY drive and these arks shakes the foundations of the setting. Regardless of the Reaper War outcome, the galaxy now has the means to break free from the Relay Network. It might take ages, but you can settle systems far beyond the reach of the Citadel Council. The "99%" of the MW currently unexplored is now within reach. It's likely that the Council would try to control this tech to prevent the eventual and inevitable collapse of the current order. This tech changes everything. This implies that having the organisation which developed the drive -- and organic-integrated AIs -- pack up and leave the MW for good works just fine for the Council. In some ways, the AI looks like a project to quarantine troublemakers.
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2018 14:27:18 GMT
An armed colony ship is about as close to a military vessel of the same size as a van with SMGs taped to the sides is to a tank. It's a completely different thing. The Nexus and the Arks, let alone the Tempest and the Nomad being unarmed - and remaining unarmed after their arrival in Heleus - is one of these almost comical displays of incompetence just like the absence of solar panels. "OMG power is running out what are we going to do?" It appears that the Andromeda Initiative only ever planned for one possible outcome - everything going as well as they hoped without any trouble or delay. Defense turrets could have been manufactured with Andromeda resources after their arrival, just like all the guns and armor sets you get to build, but that didn't happen. BioWare didn't include vehicular combat in the game, and they likely wanted to avoid questions like "why didn't we just shoot that frigging Kett ship?" The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 14:30:44 GMT
KrrKs , minor nitpick. The ODSY is right in line with galactic standard FTL. A few of us accurately predicted, pre-release, the 600-700 year travel time using standard FTL. The chief variable was the precise location of Heleus itself. We didn't know if it was on the fringes or deeper into Andromeda. The fact that they were even able to construct something like the ODSY drive and these arks shakes the foundations of the setting. Regardless of the Reaper War outcome, the galaxy now has the means to break free from the Relay Network. It might take ages, but you can settle systems far beyond the reach of the Citadel Council. The "99%" of the MW currently unexplored is now within reach. It's likely that the Council would try to control this tech to prevent the eventual and inevitable collapse of the current order. This tech changes everything. These were my thoughts as we learned about "going to Andromeda". By the time we learned that the Ai vessels were mostly unarmed, I'd swallowed a lot of changes to the setting, making unarmed vessels a minor obstacle at most to my enjoyment. It makes sense that the Council wouldn't let the Ai construct insanely large vessels and arm them, nor to militarily outfit a populace of 100,000. (Yes, they have both fighters and military hardware, but it's all very limited in scope. Essentially, they brought the barest of essentials.) As I was saying, it may make sense that the Council wouldn't like the creation of a powerful military force; but it doesn't make a lot of sense for 100K souls to jump into the unknown so seemingly under-prepared. I honestly choose not to think about it, otherwise I struggle to accept the entire premise. Verisimilitude can be a fragile thing. The Galaxy Map in ME3 clearly shows that the alleged 99% unexplored parts of the MW are not "out of reach" for FTL travel from the nearest relay. The map shows relays in all quadrants of the MW galaxy. That's the issue I have with that 99% figure. There is no reason for the MW species to have already explored clusters throughout every quadrant of the galaxy and just "skipped over" 99% percent of the clusters that are already near Mass Relays or even adjacent to their home systems. Their FTL sppeds are sufficient to put have put all areas of the galaxy within easy reach without the mass relays; and there are numerous species that have been space faring in that galaxy for centuries. People use the argument that it makes no sense to go to Andromeda when people haven't explored what's close by without thinking that the same applies within the galaxy. Why would the Asari not explore the clusters that are close by their known space, but jump to the other side of the galaxy to explore in the Terminus Systems. Given the extent of ME3's GM, there is really no logical way that 99% of that galaxy remains unexplored.
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2018 14:34:34 GMT
OTOH, the Citadel government's attitude towards exploring the relay network doesn't seem to have been founded in logic in the first place. Not opening relays doesn't protect you from what's on the other side, it just keeps you in the dark about what's there.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2018 14:45:12 GMT
An armed colony ship is about as close to a military vessel of the same size as a van with SMGs taped to the sides is to a tank. It's a completely different thing. The Nexus and the Arks, let alone the Tempest and the Nomad being unarmed - and remaining unarmed after their arrival in Heleus - is one of these almost comical displays of incompetence just like the absence of solar panels. "OMG power is running out what are we going to do?" It appears that the Andromeda Initiative only ever planned for one possible outcome - everything going as well as they hoped without any trouble or delay. Defense turrets could have been manufactured with Andromeda resources after their arrival, just like all the guns and armor sets you get to build, but that didn't happen. BioWare didn't include vehicular combat in the game, and they likely wanted to avoid questions like "why didn't we just shoot that frigging Kett ship?" The funny thing is that "the kett vessel is far more powerful than we are; we have no chance in combat" would work just fine too. How much space combat did the MET have? The SR-1 fights at the Citadel, the SR-2 fights during the SM, runs from some fighters during Jack's LM, and fires a few shots at Earth before breaking off... any other cases? The SR-2 provides a diversion during the Grissom Academy mission, but I can't remember if they show it firing to get the Cerberus' attention or not. While getting Shepard & company closer in to earth during the final battle, I don't think it fires the gun (since it's theoretically using it's stealth). It uses stealth to get in close to the geth dreadnought, so no combat there either.
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