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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 22, 2018 20:37:25 GMT
He emotionally blackmailed Hawke. He says things like if Hawke doesn't help then they never really loved him thus if Hawke does love Anders they are pressured to help that way similar to someone who is blackmailed physically. Plus you could also say the relationship is held as blackmail since Anders is threatening to dump Hawke if they don't help. You see this a bunch with family or significant others where one member has done something bad so uses that kind of blackmail to get the other to do things like help or cover for them. Is that rivalry path? At the gallows at the end or another part. I don't remember it in the friendship path. It's during the quest when he is making his bomb. I believe it is after you get the ingredients and he is asking you to distract Elthina while he sneaks into the Chantry. If you ask too many questions and keep pushing for more information he starts to use the emotional blackmail, that being your support of mages is superficial and you don't love or aren't his friend unless you help. It happens regardless if you are friend or rival.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 22, 2018 20:46:36 GMT
I also understand Sebastian's first anger – of course, but after three years, in the middle of a world chaos? (I love, that at this moment Sebastian's the real embodied vengeance... "I'll teach to your precious Anders, what the true justice is..." and after three years, he shows, what the true vengeance is... In fact, I like Sebastian's character, he's more interesting than a simple choir boy) About the proverbs: we say: "the last drop in the glass" and the last straw... (I'm from Hungary) yeah, we have a similar proverb with the last straw, but also with a bucket or a fuse...proverbs can be such fun ^^ I also like Sebastian, he's a great character (plus, I love the accent), but...I'm not a very religious person so characters like him can be a bit...well a bit much sometimes in my opinion I just hate that I have to chose between him and Anders Anders sounds so lost at that part...even more so on Rivalry path (which I can never bring myself to do, I did it once...but I just like being friendly  ) only time I got angry at Anders was during his Dissent quest...plus its fun to hear Fenris talking to him during that portion those two would get along great if only they'd admit they're so much alike
I still can't forgive Anders for calling Fenris a wild dog though...just no, he's a person...Eirian and Arenor(my Wardens, the latter whom is an elf) would smack him for being so rude Yeah, they get along great when both are harassing Merrill. Don't forget Anders, Mr. "People Should Be Free" being literally the only companion who approves of selling Fenris back into slavery.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 20:48:56 GMT
I also understand Sebastian's first anger – of course, but after three years, in the middle of a world chaos? (I love, that at this moment Sebastian's the real embodied vengeance... "I'll teach to your precious Anders, what the true justice is..." and after three years, he shows, what the true vengeance is... In fact, I like Sebastian's character, he's more interesting than a simple choir boy) About the proverbs: we say: "the last drop in the glass" and the last straw... (I'm from Hungary) yeah, we have a similar proverb with the last straw, but also with a bucket or a fuse...proverbs can be such fun ^^
I also like Sebastian, he's a great character (plus, I love the accent), but...I'm not a very religious person so characters like him can be a bit...well a bit much sometimes in my opinion I just hate that I have to chose between him and Anders Anders sounds so lost at that part...even more so on Rivalry path (which I can never bring myself to do, I did it once...but I just like being friendly  ) only time I got angry at Anders was during his Dissent quest...plus its fun to hear Fenris talking to him during that portion those two would get along great if only they'd admit they're so much alike
I still can't forgive Anders for calling Fenris a wild dog though...just no, he's a person...Eirian and Arenor(my Wardens, the latter whom is an elf) would smack him for being so rude  I never did a rivalry with him, and not even on my to-do list. "Sebastian's right, the Grand Cleric deserves justice" scene at the Gallows:
I love Anders' and Fenris' conversations. Like many inherently doomed approaching attempt – their past prevents the understanding. But Hawke doesn't need to choose between them (of course... in love...) Sometimes seems they would understand each other, in a different time, at a different place. You can imagine, after Kirkwall, if Anders survives, how grateful to everyone who helped... And how would Fenris behave, if we would in Tevinter, not in Kirkwall, and would get: it would be nice if he wouldn't whine about the oppression...
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 20:51:38 GMT
yeah, we have a similar proverb with the last straw, but also with a bucket or a fuse...proverbs can be such fun ^^ I also like Sebastian, he's a great character (plus, I love the accent), but...I'm not a very religious person so characters like him can be a bit...well a bit much sometimes in my opinion I just hate that I have to chose between him and Anders Anders sounds so lost at that part...even more so on Rivalry path (which I can never bring myself to do, I did it once...but I just like being friendly  ) only time I got angry at Anders was during his Dissent quest...plus its fun to hear Fenris talking to him during that portion those two would get along great if only they'd admit they're so much alike
I still can't forgive Anders for calling Fenris a wild dog though...just no, he's a person...Eirian and Arenor(my Wardens, the latter whom is an elf) would smack him for being so rude  Yeah, they get along great when both are harassing Merrill. Don't forget Anders, Mr. "People Should Be Free" being literally the only companion who approves of selling Fenris back into slavery. And Merrill so happy if Hawke let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel. Cute, isn't?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 21:00:03 GMT
It's during the quest when he is making his bomb. I believe it is after you get the ingredients and he is asking you to distract Elthina while he sneaks into the Chantry. If you ask too many questions and keep pushing for more information he starts to use the emotional blackmail. oh ok thanks. My Hawkes haven't pushed that hard I guess.
I always question him, hard. But I don't like the blackmail answer. I would like another way. His "blackmail" not about he will leave Hawke, or something similar... it's just about the mages... and what is he exactly. It's a desperate attempt no more...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 22, 2018 21:03:19 GMT
Yeah, they get along great when both are harassing Merrill. Don't forget Anders, Mr. "People Should Be Free" being literally the only companion who approves of selling Fenris back into slavery. And Merrill so happy if Hawke let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel. Cute, isn't? And yet her words when dealing with Torpor are "I don't think we should be doing this." Plus if I recall she only approves when making the deal(which can just be to trick the demon) and not when it actually happens. But go ahead and change the narrative like you always do. Now actually adress my post. I want to see you excuse Anders' actions in the situations I mention.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 21:09:36 GMT
And Merrill so happy if Hawke let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel. Cute, isn't? And yet her words when dealing with Torpor are "I don't think we should be doing this." Now actually adress my post. I want to see you excuse Anders' actions in the situations I mention. "Be cautious, demons not always keep their promises"
But not this is the point: this is shit... She would never agree...
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jul 22, 2018 21:20:16 GMT
I saw a post on tumblr some time back talking about how Anders views Merrill and Fenris it was quite thorough, but of course when I tried looking for it again I couldn't find it it talked about how Anders views the both of them as obstacles, not just for being near Hawke (I have this head canon where Anders pines after Hawke even if they don't romance him) but by what they represent; Merrill is a blood mage, which is everything Anders hates, she was also able to deal with a demon/spirit without falling victim to it (at least with Hawke's help, there's no telling what would've happened during her Act3 quest if Hawke hadn't been there) Fenris lived in Tevinter and had his whole life and world colored by everything he saw there, he saw how dangerous mages are, and is rightfully scared/wary of them plus as I've said in another thread...they're people, people don't always get along Hawke is just there being the red string that keeps them all together (which fits since the champion armor has a lot of red in it ^^) and yes, Anders and Fenris get along swimmingly when they attack Merrill when she's at her lowest, but know what...Fenris also (in his own way) tells her to life up to Marethari's memory, Anders more or less just tells her she was stupid 
found on TV tropes
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 22, 2018 21:37:39 GMT
And yet her words when dealing with Torpor are "I don't think we should be doing this." Now actually adress my post. I want to see you excuse Anders' actions in the situations I mention. "Be cautious, demons not always keep their promises"
But not this is the point: this is shit... She would never agree... And Anders would never agree in slavery, and yet he explicitly does so with Fenris unlike Merrill which we only see as a gameplay mechanic.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 22, 2018 21:39:32 GMT
I saw a post on tumblr some time back talking about how Anders views Merrill and Fenris it was quite thorough, but of course when I tried looking for it again I couldn't find it it talked about how Anders views the both of them as obstacles, not just for being near Hawke (I have this head canon where Anders pines after Hawke even if they don't romance him) but by what they represent; Merrill is a blood mage, which is everything Anders hates, she was also able to deal with a demon/spirit without falling victim to it (at least with Hawke's help, there's no telling what would've happened during her Act3 quest if Hawke hadn't been there) Fenris lived in Tevinter and had his whole life and world colored by everything he saw there, he saw how dangerous mages are, and is rightfully scared/wary of them plus as I've said in another thread...they're people, people don't always get along Hawke is just there being the red string that keeps them all together (which fits since the champion armor has a lot of red in it ^^) and yes, Anders and Fenris get along swimmingly when they attack Merrill when she's at her lowest, but know what...Fenris also (in his own way) tells her to life up to Marethari's memory, Anders more or less just tells her she was stupid  found on TV tropes
Yes. And if Merrill involved, Anders and Fenris are high five bros. Anders harsh with Merrill – cruel and a jerk, undoubtedly. But he has every right to warn her – he knows well the danger, it was his personal experience. He wants to scare her because: "Most blood mages never get a second chance."Anders: It's not a good feeling, you know. Merrill: What? Anders: Being an abomination. I just got a taste of your future. Merrill: I'm not that foolish. Our relationship is, um, strictly platonic. Anders: It's like you're trapped in your own body, seeing out your eyes, while someone else moves you like a puppet. And you're trying to scream, to move a single muscle, but there's no escape. Until you look down at the blood on your hands... Merrill: Stop it. You're scaring me. Anders: That's the point.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 23, 2018 14:11:45 GMT
I don't understand why Hawke is given so much credit for the mage rebellion. Compared to Anders, s/he didn't do much.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 23, 2018 19:02:19 GMT
I don't understand why Hawke is given so much credit for the mage rebellion. Compared to Anders, s/he didn't do much. It depends – it's a possibility, that Hawke does nothing, or even tried to stop the rebellion. But even a possibility, that Hawke supports the rebellion, actively, and can continue the fight with Anders after Kirkwall. But even if Hawke "just" protect the mages from the Annulment, and help them to escape, s/he, as the (in)famous Champion of Kirkwall, helped to the mages, it's something. (Varric's epilogue, DA2) Hawke can be the face/name of the rebellion... or something (I don't know the best term)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 23, 2018 19:19:07 GMT
I don't understand why Hawke is given so much credit for the mage rebellion. Compared to Anders, s/he didn't do much. I think it is because Hawke was at the center of it and was the most famous person involved due to being the Champion of Kirkwall. There is also the fact that they are the last person standing in a sense since they defeat both Orsino and Meredith. Also the relationship with Anders who started it. Add to that Varric telling the story of Hawke for years making Hawke seem larger in life and twisting the truth, hence why the proto-Inquisition goes to Varric for information, and it makes sense why public perception gives Hawke so much credit.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 18, 2019 20:52:19 GMT
Not to derail the current conversation too much but.....is Orsino really a "rebellion leader" like the opening posts insists?
I mean sure, he rebels against Meredith and her policies (sometimes with shady means) but that doesn't neccesarily mean he is against the Circle system as a whole. I bet several people wanted to change how Meredith ran things. But just because they wanted to drastically change that one chapter of templars/magi does not mean that they wanted to dismantle or rebel against the entire institution.
It could very well be that he just wanted the Kirkwall Circle to get more in line with how other Circles do things, or just something better while still being a Circle. I mean say whatever you want about Orsino (rebellious leader, harvester, shady character, etc.) but he was still mostly working within the system he was given rather going completely rogue like Anders did. And it's not like he didn't have that option either, seeing as how the mage underground had a substantial following in Kirkwall.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 18, 2019 20:59:07 GMT
Not to derail the current conversation too much but.....is Orsino really a "rebellion leader" like the opening posts insists? I would say no. He's obviously against Meredith, but the mages in Kirkwall never rebelled - they only defended themselves when the Templars tried to exterminate them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 18, 2019 21:10:51 GMT
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 1, 2019 16:50:53 GMT
I wouldn't call Orsino a rebellion leader either. The most he asks for is for his mages to enjoy the same considerations they do in most other circles, which isn't unreasonable if you're unaware of the state of the Veil in Kirkwall.
He has clearly studied dark and forbidden magic though, and calls upon it impulsively to lash out at the world by sacrificing people who trusted him with their lives when not doing so might have saved them.
I also wouldn't call him weak or cowardly, because he shows immense courage under other circumstances, but he was definitely a flawed character and not much of an argument for mages deserving to rule themselves.
I guess I'm closest to the "I like the system as-is" camp, because I think it should be adjusted and optimized in small and thought-through ways rather than torn down or changed radically on principle. Mages can be made to live under more humane conditions and there are ways to reduce Templar exploitation and abuse. But the towers and Templars are both staying.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 1, 2019 17:03:45 GMT
Ugh. You didn't read the intro post regarding this being no place for smug templar support, did you? IF you do not support mage freedom, the only participation that is accepted is voting, otherwise, leave. This is not a place for you to be a troll and argue with those who do support it. Besides...
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 1, 2019 17:16:01 GMT
Ugh. You didn't read the intro post regarding this being no place for smug templar support, did you? I did, actually. Which is why I kept my comment clean of anything except commenting on the "current" neutral topic of Orsino himself, and clarifying the meaning behind my vote without going into rationale. Which would indeed have seemed like I was trying to start an argument.
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