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Post by Iddy on May 14, 2018 18:07:08 GMT
By doing so, the Inquisitor is deliberately allowing a potential threat to emerge. And why? because his/her personal feelings come first.
I'm not sure if saving like five people is worth having red lyrium reach Tevinter.
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Zubi
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ZubiFett
XBL Gamertag: Zubi Fett
Posts: 15 Likes: 22
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ZubiFett
Zubi Fett
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Post by Zubi on May 14, 2018 18:19:38 GMT
I believe the red lyrium was for the Venatori and not Tevinter? In any case, I do agree with you.
It's a tough call, but definitely the right one.
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Post by Iddy on May 14, 2018 18:32:56 GMT
I believe the red lyrium was for the Venatori and not Tevinter? In any case, I do agree with you. It's a tough call, but definitely the right one. Yeah, that. It's been a long time since I last played the game. I think it all goes back to the Iron Bull's statement: "We don't choose leaders from the strongest or the smartest. We pick the ones willing to make the hard decisions and live with the consequences".
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Post by vertigomez on May 14, 2018 20:54:21 GMT
Nah bro, I'd sacrifice ten more dreadnoughts to make sure Iron Bull is safe and happy and Tal-Vashoth.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 14, 2018 21:41:35 GMT
I believe the red lyrium was for the Venatori and not Tevinter? In any case, I do agree with you. It's a tough call, but definitely the right one. Yeah, that. It's been a long time since I last played the game. I think it all goes back to the Iron Bull's statement: "We don't choose leaders from the strongest or the smartest. We pick the ones willing to make the hard decisions and live with the consequences". It’s not even a hard decision though. You save dozens of more lives by protecting the dreadnaught rather than the Chargers, and thousands of lives after that considering things like stopping the Venatori from burning half of Denerim.
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Post by Lazarillo on May 14, 2018 23:40:28 GMT
I'm not sure if saving like five people is worth having red lyrium reach Tevinter. You might think that, but because the Venatori weren't capable of handling the corrupted lyrium they received, they actually all blew themselves up and thus were unable to send a battleship to destroy Denerim.
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Post by Catilina on May 14, 2018 23:49:19 GMT
Yeah, that. It's been a long time since I last played the game. I think it all goes back to the Iron Bull's statement: "We don't choose leaders from the strongest or the smartest. We pick the ones willing to make the hard decisions and live with the consequences". It’s not even a hard decision though. You save dozens of more lives by protecting the dreadnaught rather than the Chargers, and thousands of lives after that considering things like stopping the Venatori from burning half of Denerim. The Qun never a good choice.
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Post by Iddy on May 15, 2018 0:17:23 GMT
I'm not sure if saving like five people is worth having red lyrium reach Tevinter. You might think that, but because the Venatori weren't capable of handling the corrupted lyrium they received, they actually all blew themselves up and thus were unable to send a battleship to destroy Denerim. The Inquisitor doesn't know that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2018 0:31:09 GMT
It’s not even a hard decision though. You save dozens of more lives by protecting the dreadnaught rather than the Chargers, and thousands of lives after that considering things like stopping the Venatori from burning half of Denerim. The Qun never a good choice. A good choice compared to Corypheus winning. Yes I know you don’t need them but that is meta knowledge. Ingame you need all the help you can get and the Qun are the single strongest force in Thedas.
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Post by Catilina on May 15, 2018 0:37:50 GMT
The Qun never a good choice. A good choice compared to Corypheus winning. Yes I know you don’t need them but that is meta knowledge. Ingame you need all the help you can get and the Qun are the single strongest force in Thedas. Not a trustworthy ally.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2018 0:45:41 GMT
A good choice compared to Corypheus winning. Yes I know you don’t need them but that is meta knowledge. Ingame you need all the help you can get and the Qun are the single strongest force in Thedas. Not a trustworthy ally. Actually I'd argue that among all the allies we get in Inquisition the Qun are the most trustworthy. As a group they have never really ever lied, even being blunt and open about their intentions towards Thedas. Compare that to Orlais, the Wardens, the Templars, and the Mages who all have more spotty records with that sort of thing. And they do prove to be a trustworthy ally, never betraying our alliance to defeat Corypheus.
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Post by Catilina on May 15, 2018 0:49:18 GMT
Actually I'd argue that among all the allies we get in Inquisition the Qun are the most trustworthy. As a group they have never really ever lied, even being blunt and open about their intentions towards Thedas. Compare that to Orlais, the Wardens, the Templars, and the Mages who all have more spotty records with that sort of thing. And they do prove to be a trustworthy ally, never betraying our alliance to defeat Corypheus. Oh, yes, Orlais a cesspit covered by perfume, I agree. But the Qun is unacceptable.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2018 0:55:43 GMT
Actually I'd argue that among all the allies we get in Inquisition the Qun are the most trustworthy. As a group they have never really ever lied, even being blunt and open about their intentions towards Thedas. Compare that to Orlais, the Wardens, the Templars, and the Mages who all have more spotty records with that sort of thing. And they do prove to be a trustworthy ally, never betraying our alliance to defeat Corypheus. Oh, yes, Orlais a cesspit covered by perfume, I agree. But the Qun is unacceptable. I never said I like the Qun. There are many things that I have against them, however being dishonest is not one of them. They even have a special roles for members who can lie because it is an unique skillset.
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Post by Catilina on May 15, 2018 1:12:28 GMT
Oh, yes, Orlais a cesspit covered by perfume, I agree. But the Qun is unacceptable. I never said I like the Qun. There are many things that I have against them, however being dishonest is not one of them. They even have a special roles for members who can lie because it is an unique skillset. Yes, they're not dishonest. Also Bull was not dishonest. But you don't know when they will left or turn on you. Their goals are different.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 15, 2018 1:55:58 GMT
The ship carrying the red lyrium to Tevinter is sunk no matter what. (And regardless of your actions, red lyrium reaches Tevinter. Read Knight Errant.)
The dilemma is whether you sacrifice the Chargers to save the qunari dreadnought and preserve the alliance with the Qun, or whether you save the Chargers and sacrifice the dreadnought, ending your alliance with the Qun.
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Post by Sifr on May 15, 2018 3:06:31 GMT
(And regardless of your actions, red lyrium reaches Tevinter. Read Knight Errant.) Which seems obvious even without meta-game knowledge, since Corypheus has been building the Venatori and co-opting various groups for years... are we really supposed to believe he's never managed to smuggle Red Lyrium into Tevinter before now? This one ship is the key to stopping everything?
My suspicion is that the entire situation was engineered by the Qunari to test Bull's loyalty and whether they could manipulate the Inquisition for their own ends. The Venatori ship probably wasn't carrying anything vitally important at all, while the Dreadnought might only have had a skeleton crew onboard, to minimise losses if we chose not to play ball.
(No evidence that any of this is indeed the case, but it'd fit with how the Qunari tend to play the long-game)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 15, 2018 4:18:49 GMT
Oh, yes, Orlais a cesspit covered by perfume, I agree. But the Qun is unacceptable. I never said I like the Qun. There are many things that I have against them, however being dishonest is not one of them. They even have a special roles for members who can lie because it is an unique skillset. I'm not sure that that means the society's diplomatic corps is being honest with us, though. Sten, who I will give credit for honesty, openly tells Alistair that the treaty that ended the war between the White Chantry and the Qun isn't worth the paper it was written on, and that the Qunari are only seemingly honoring it because a war isn't in their best interests yet. He openly says that they're using bad-faith diplomacy as a smokescreen to further their eventual goal of conquering Thedas. I'm nearly positive they're trying to do the same thing with the Alliance with the Inquisition: work with the Inquisition to take down a mutual threat that would need to be destroyed anyway, and gird for an eventual attack. And we've seen nothing to indicate they'd shy away from using the Alliance in a more direct way, by using it to give plausible deniability while they move soldiers into South Thedas. Though you're right that that temporary alliance could still be of some use, if the Inquisition has its doubts about being able to handle Cory on its own and if South Thedas keeps its eyes open for the inevitable backstab. But on the other hand South Thedas clearly isn't keeping their eyes open, since the next world-ending threat had to pull them out of the fire when Viddasala came. And it might be worth noting that while the Qunari disavow her actions, we have only their word that this was entirely her idea rather than that same inevitable backstab. (And regardless of your actions, red lyrium reaches Tevinter. Read Knight Errant.) Which seems obvious even without meta-game knowledge, since Corypheus has been building the Venatori and co-opting various groups for years... are we really supposed to believe he's never managed to smuggle Red Lyrium into Tevinter before now? This one ship is the key to stopping everything? My suspicion is that the entire situation was engineered by the Qunari to test Bull's loyalty and whether they could manipulate the Inquisition for their own ends. The Venatori ship probably wasn't carrying anything vitally important at all, while the Dreadnought might only have had a skeleton crew onboard, to minimise losses if we chose not to play ball. (No evidence that any of this is indeed the case, but it'd fit with how the Qunari tend to play the long-game)
I'm not so sure the entire operation was a setup. I don't put it past the Qunari to pull something like that, but I don't think the Venatori would use a smuggling ship for anything that wasn't rare and useful in some way. Maybe it really was red lyrium, or maybe it was valuable artifacts to sell to bolster their war chests or something, since you're right that we only have the Qunaris' word for what was in it. But if it wasn't something they couldn't find in Tevinter, and important enough that stopping it helped their enemies, they probably wouldn't have bothered with the setup the Qunari were reacting to at all. But you're not wrong that the Qunari might have had their eyes open to the possibility of betrayal, and been using this as a test. In fact they'd have been fairly foolish to take as read that Bull was reliable, given that the upper managers had their doubts and mostly only treated Bull as loyal up to that point because Gatt swore up and down that Bull was loyal. They might even have moved the crew off the vessel, like you suggest.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 15, 2018 4:57:53 GMT
I never said I like the Qun. There are many things that I have against them, however being dishonest is not one of them. They even have a special roles for members who can lie because it is an unique skillset. I'm not sure that that means the society's diplomatic corps is being honest with us, though. Sten, who I will give credit for honesty, openly tells Alistair that the treaty that ended the war between the White Chantry and the Qun isn't worth the paper it was written on, and that the Qunari are only seemingly honoring it because a war isn't in their best interests yet. He openly says that they're using bad-faith diplomacy as a smokescreen to further their eventual goal of conquering Thedas. I'm nearly positive they're trying to do the same thing with the Alliance with the Inquisition: work with the Inquisition to take down a mutual threat that would need to be destroyed anyway, and gird for an eventual attack. And we've seen nothing to indicate they'd shy away from using the Alliance in a more direct way, by using it to give plausible deniability while they move soldiers into South Thedas. Though you're right that that temporary alliance could still be of some use, if the Inquisition has its doubts about being able to handle Cory on its own and if South Thedas keeps its eyes open for the inevitable backstab. But on the other hand South Thedas clearly isn't keeping their eyes open, since the next world-ending threat had to pull them out of the fire when Viddasala came. And it might be worth noting that while the Qunari disavow her actions, we have only their word that this was entirely her idea rather than that same inevitable backstab. Oh I agree that the only reason they are honoring this alliance if for their own gain, though really that is why anyone honors alliances or treaties. At the end of Trespasser we actually see this when they reaffirm the alliance with Divine Victoria since she was part of the Inquisition so with her now leading the Chantry and/or the Inquisition being part of the Chantry the alliance now extends to being being between the Qun and the Chantry. They are doing this the same time they are launching their next war on Tevinter, so it is clear they are trying to prevent what happened last time with the Chantry launching Exalted Marches against them from happening this time. Depending on who is Victoria, they either strike the alliance down or play along for the moment. I'm curious if whether the alliance exists or not will play a big role in dealing with the Qun in DA4.
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jaerick243
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 209 Likes: 252
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Post by jaerick243 on May 15, 2018 5:04:12 GMT
If you think about, it makes more sense if the quest was a test for The Iron Bull. I mean, logically, the venatori would have smugglers elsewhere, and taking a boat seems the most conspicuous form of transporting. Also, Why would they take a lot of red lyrium to Tevinter when they could use it to make more red Templars in southern thedas. It has to be a test for the Bull, otherwise, why not keep the alliance.
Seems to me that the alliance was meant as a way to keep an eye on the Iron Bull, since going with it will keep him in the Qun.
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Andraste_Reborn
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 6,867
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on May 15, 2018 5:27:04 GMT
Most of my Inquisitors will take a small but trustworthy group of soldiers and the loyalty of the Iron Bull over an alliance with the Qun which isn't worth the paper it's written on when the Qunari decide it's over. Given how it works out, I don't think they chose wrong.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 15, 2018 5:40:37 GMT
I suspect the Tevinter ship did have red lyrium - the Venatori were there for some reason - but it’s likely some other red lyrium made its way north no matter what. The stuff grew virtually everywhere, and all you need to grow more is a few “volunteers.”
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,726 Likes: 6,803
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Post by Gileadan on May 15, 2018 6:15:16 GMT
By doing so, the Inquisitor is deliberately allowing a potential threat to emerge. And why? because his/her personal feelings come first. I'm not sure if saving like five people is worth having red lyrium reach Tevinter. Quite the contrary, saving the Chargers is the best thing possible. - the Chargers live - the Qunari are down one dreadnought - one day we'll have to kill them all anyway, might as well start now - with any luck, some Vints die to red lyrium and a lesson is learned Win-win-win.
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Post by fylimar on May 15, 2018 7:42:06 GMT
I agree, that saving the chargers is the better choice. They are more than those five people, they are a whole mercenary army and they are on your side. The chargers have proofen their loyality by the time this mission comes up, unlike the Qun, who would never be loyal to bas. This is on mission, the Qunari are working with you and some promises of more versus a dedicated and capable band of fighters, that are already on your side. Plus what would it do for the morale of inquisition soldiers, if they see, that their leader sacrifice their own people for an alignment that is at best fickle? That would make the inqui not better than any Orlesian lord or lady and as a soldier, I would not be as dedicated to the cause after that. Maybe even leave at the first possibility. Imo it is more important, to have groups of people, you can trust absolutely against bigger manpower controlled by people that will as likely turn on you sooner or later.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 15, 2018 8:20:19 GMT
Well, they’re not really an army; they’re probably closer to a platoon, or at most a small company. There are likely more qunari on the dreadnought than there are Bull’s Chargers.
Nonetheless, I save the Chargers because: 1) I like the mercenaries. 2) I don’t like or trust the qunari. 3) Sacrificing the dreadnaught hurts them, albeit in a small, likely insignificant way.
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Post by phoray on May 15, 2018 14:38:14 GMT
Red Lyrium is literally everywhere. All you need is a smidgeon to grow it elsewhere, so very portable. Venatori have ridiculously easy access, and it wouldn't be difficult for a Tevinter spy to walk into these completely chaotic places and take a sample.
I think it's actually canon that Tevinter gets a slice no matter what the Inky does.
I keep the chargers because I don't trust an invading force to play nice after the universal crisis is over. I went there in the first place with mixed feelings. IB ay be a spy, but his troop isn't interested in all that. If I'm willing to put myself in danger in the Fallow Mire just to save 6 troops, I'm sure as hell not going to sacrifice a merc group for intangible and unreliable future benefits.
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