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Champion of Kirkwall
1212
0
8,023
Sifr
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on May 27, 2018 12:14:20 GMT
She's too maleable by the PC, being able to harden/soften twice. She also thinks she's been chosen by the Maker. No one else is like that. Leliana has a long history of letting other people (Cecilie, Marjolaine, Justinia, the Warden, Justinia again and the Inquisitor) define her personality/beliefs, along with make important, life-changing decisions for her. When separated from those people, she has a tendency to become depressed and immediately seek out another figure of authority to follow. All which fit her having some degree of a dependent personality disorder (although I'm not a psychologist)
For a quick summation of the times Leliana has molded herself to match her current patron;
After losing her mother at four, Cecilie took her in and attempted to cheer her up by catering to Leliana's every whim, encouraging her love of books, songs, music and dance, while imparting knowledge about the intricacies of the royal court, customs and culture of Orlais to her.
After meeting Marjolaine at sixteen, Leliana was quickly smitten and convinced to become a bard. When Marjolaine betrayed and abandoned her, she was rescued by Dorothea (Justinia) and convinced to join the Chantry.
When she began to question her role in the Chantry, she let a "vision of the Maker" decide that she needed to leave to stop the Blight. After she chose to follow the Warden, she let them decide whether to spare/kill Marjolaine, as well as whether to slip back into her old ways as a bard, or remain a Chantry sister.
Regardless of that outcome, when Justinia asked her to serve her as the Left Hand, she once again quickly slipped back into the role of a bard and spymaster.
Then when Justinia perished in the explosion at the Conclave, the Inquisitor finds her in a disillusioned state and can end up influencing her so that she either re-embraced her compassionate side or became more cold and ruthless.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Member is Online
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gervaise21
11,353
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2018 12:57:03 GMT
And all of it is underscored by the fact that once she's on her chosen course, you can't stop her. you, Herald of Andraste, can't order her to NOT kidnap someone's children. Your power is impotent, because you are just a figurehead, a symbol for an army, and Lel/Jose are the true power behind your throne. (sorry Cullen, you're really just everyone's whipping boy). If Lel thought you were actually the Herald, her religion wouldn't let her do anything but listen to you. She doesn't believe in you, and you are not her boss. I think this was my main gripe with the way Leliana was written and in particular how the softening/hardening works. At the beginning she hardly knows you. It might have suited her to play along with the ignorant peasants in believing you are the Herald but the reality is she hardly knows you. You are definitely not yet the leader of the organisation, just a convenient symbol. Despite this she will instantly listen to you if you ask her not to kill the spy and this sets her on the path to being softened. Do anything else, even if it is far more in character for your person to observe how she works rather than attempt to interfere and she is irrevocably set on the path to being a hardened bitch. Scroll forward to the scene in the Chantry. You are now the leader of the organisation. Whether you have claimed/accepted the role of Herald or not that is undisputed fact. Yet now if you give her a direct order not to kill someone she goes ahead and does it anyway unless you took that earlier option to stop her. Why? Why did some stranger interfering in her affairs have more influence over her than someone she has now known for many months and could have displayed (as my Inquisitor had) that they generally try to be merciful when they can. Why are you given absolute power of life and death over every person except this Chantry cleric? Why, when she disobeys you, are you not able to call her to account, have her dismissed from her post, particularly when you discover she is now blackmailing people into supporting her? Then, as I point out above, apparently Cassandra will refuse to work with Vivienne and yet still be willing to work with this blood drenched Divine who will stop at nothing to stay in power and push through reforms that Cassandra herself does not believe in? Vivienne may be ruthless in her pursuit of personal power but, if you leave aside the fact she is a mage, how she deals with the problems she encounters are far more measured. In fact the only reason people do seem to object to her, understandably, is because she is a mage. Without that fact it would seem she is no more radical in her ideas than Cassandra is. I favour Leliana as a Divine only because I want to see the Chantry go up in flames as an institution of power in Thedas and she seems most likely to achieve that outcome. Yet I find it hard to stomach supporting someone who is so obviously corrupt as she is when hardened and the ease with which she overcomes opposition when softened just doesn't seem plausible. To be honest, none of the candidates for Divine seem credible to me, particularly when you consider at the beginning of the game they were considered heretics for supporting the idea that you are the Herald of Andraste. I don't care how many clerics were at the Conclave, there must still have been survivors who had genuine faith in the Chantry as it had been for the previous 800 years and would not entertain any of the three as suitable.
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18,891
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Post by vertigomez on May 27, 2018 14:23:26 GMT
She's too maleable by the PC, being able to harden/soften twice. She also thinks she's been chosen by the Maker. No one else is like that. Leliana has a long history of letting other people (Cecilie, Marjolaine, Justinia, the Warden, Justinia again and the Inquisitor) define her personality/beliefs, along with make important, life-changing decisions for her. When separated from those people, she has a tendency to become depressed and immediately seek out another figure of authority to follow. All which fit her having some degree of a dependent personality disorder (although I'm not a psychologist)
For a quick summation of the times Leliana has molded herself to match her current patron;
After losing her mother at four, Cecilie took her in and attempting to cheer her up by catering to Leliana's every whim, encouraging her love of books, songs, music and dance, while imparting knowledge about the intricacies of the royal court, customs and culture of Orlais to her.
After meeting Marjolaine at sixteen, Leliana was quickly smitten and convinced to become a bard. When Marjolaine betrayed and abandoned her, she was rescued by Dorothea (Justinia) and convinced to join the Chantry.
When she began to question her role in the Chantry, she let a "vision of the Maker" decide that she needed to leave to stop the Blight. After chose to follow the Warden, she let them decide whether to spare/kill Marjolaine, as well as whether to slip back into her old ways as a bard, or remain a Chantry sister.
Regardless of that outcome, when Justinia asked her to serve her as the Left Hand, she once again quickly slipped back into the role of a bard and spymaster.
Then when Justinia perished in the explosion at the Conclave, the Inquisitor finds her in a disillusioned state and can end up influencing her so that she either re-embraced her compassionate side or became more cold and ruthless. When you lay it all out like that... ![:gasp:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BYTEHASyfQqFzFCSDEwI.png) edit: Though (and this is aimed at the discussion as a whole) I think part of her back-and-forth writing is a product of having been in SO MANY games and associated media. Leliana's Song, DAO, a letter in Awakening, DA2, DAI, Trespasser, Asunder, The Masked Empire, Magekiller(??). Like, she's got to be a character that works in all these things, she was also potentially romanced/befriended/murdered by the Warden, etc. On the one hand it's neat to watch a character grow like that - she was a very young woman in Leliana's Song if not a teenager, and she's got to be in her early/mid forties by the end of Trespasser - but on the other hand it makes consistency much harder to achieve... :dumb:
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Awesome
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Mar 12, 2017 22:45:38 GMT
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Post by duskwanderer on May 27, 2018 17:50:23 GMT
I agree that Leliana is far too malleable. However, the results of her actions matter a bit more to me.
The Chantry needs to be changed. It's bigotry against elves, dwarves, and males is far too great for the power it has. And in a situation like this, the changes need to be forced now, while they're being made.
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Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Dec 12, 2020 23:48:50 GMT
952
Cantina
Vive la révolution mages!
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Sept 16, 2016 20:16:02 GMT
September 2016
cantina
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Cantina on May 27, 2018 22:18:24 GMT
I am willing to forgive but not forget Lilly’s actions in Origins. True, it is during this time she can be made mailable. But, in DA2 we are given very little to make a complete option of her.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Lilly. However, I felt Lilly was a disaster in DAI – as was most of the game. It’s like the writers/developers wanted her to be this instead of what she should be; especially whatever your choices were as a Warden. Instead you were forced to redo the whole soften/harden crap again.
My take on Lilly should have been the following:
If she was hardened or soften in DAO then it would have been applied in DAI.
Then we get to the whole Lyrium ghost.
This part is bullshit.
Players made mention to Gaider that in their Origin’s Lilly died. So, being the ass Gaider is, he threw in that lyrium ghost ending just to say, “Fuck you” and shut the players up. Yeah, he is a first-class prick.
IF Lilly did die at the end of DAO, they should have replaced her with someone else in DA2 and that same someone would appear in DAI as the spy-master.
The problem Bioware seems to have is allowing players choices but when it comes to following through on those choices they tend not to give two shits and do what they wish.
Then when people complain about how they made this choice, and nothing seemed to happen; Bioware throws in a piss poor choice to shut people up and point the blame in their direction. “Its your fault we had to this!”
I don’t see Lilly, being anything at all like Vivienne. But I do see that the Bioware decided not to let Lilly grow as a person but chose to redo Lilly as she was in Origins and add in some form of serial killer parts. Personally, the time has past to play nurse maid to a woman of 30 some years. The way Lilly is in DAI, I feel as though Bioware took whatever ideas were scribbled on napkins, glob them together and that is what we got.
I understand why people do not like her. I enjoyed Lilly the most in DAO, and as I said when it came to DAI I felt the writers were complete twats on how she was written. There were some good moments – Redcliff Castle future – comes to mind. But when you tell Lilly not to kill someone and she does it anyways, well I face palm and look at Bioware and shake my head. Again, its not about you, the player, it’s about Bioware.
If Lilly makes an appearance in DA4, Bioware will end up forgetting you killed Marjolene and say that Lilly and her reunited, have tons of adopted little spy bards and live in Orlais in a nice estate they “bought” from a black-market dealer. They spend their days stabbing and framing people and in the evening they knit socks to give to the needy. And if Lilly did die in your Origins game, well screw you! Lilly ends up floating away and returns to the fade spending her eternity haunting her children and Marjolene.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
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Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 28, 2018 0:42:09 GMT
The Qunari are not a "potential" threat. They have repeatedly and explicitly expressed that their intentions are to invade Thedas and forcibly convert the entire continent. Trying to forge any sort of genuine alliance with them is not only a waste of time, but foolhardy and dangerous. They've already made it clear that they intend to break the peace treaties that already exist. It's only a matter of time.
Allowing the dreadnought to be destroyed pre-emptively weakens their forces, allows me to retain good, capable men of my own, and furthermore serves as a catalyst for Iron Bull to leave the Qun, which can only be a good thing.
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Scribbles
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0
31,106
Hanako Ikezawa
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August 2016
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 28, 2018 1:04:25 GMT
The Qunari are not a "potential" threat. They have repeatedly and explicitly expressed that their intentions are to invade Thedas and forcibly convert the entire continent. Trying to forge any sort of genuine alliance with them is not only a waste of time, but foolhardy and dangerous. They've already made it clear that they intend to break the peace treaties that already exist. It's only a matter of time. Allowing the dreadnought to be destroyed pre-emptively weakens their forces, allows me to retain good, capable men of my own, and furthermore serves as a catalyst for Iron Bull to leave the Qun, which can only be a good thing. Good, capable men? They couldn't even hold off a squad of Venatori even with the high ground. Not to mention their questionable work history.
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Jun 15, 2024 12:50:16 GMT
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duskwanderer
Awesome
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Mar 12, 2017 22:45:38 GMT
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Post by duskwanderer on May 28, 2018 2:26:45 GMT
The Qunari are not a "potential" threat. They have repeatedly and explicitly expressed that their intentions are to invade Thedas and forcibly convert the entire continent. Trying to forge any sort of genuine alliance with them is not only a waste of time, but foolhardy and dangerous. They've already made it clear that they intend to break the peace treaties that already exist. It's only a matter of time. Allowing the dreadnought to be destroyed pre-emptively weakens their forces, allows me to retain good, capable men of my own, and furthermore serves as a catalyst for Iron Bull to leave the Qun, which can only be a good thing. Good, capable men? They couldn't even hold off a squad of Venatori even with the high ground. Not to mention their questionable work history. That position has no cover, though. And magic tends to nullify the advantages of high ground.
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Cantina
N3
![*](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/Cxe61tFipqUzASLV595U.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/Cxe61tFipqUzASLV595U.png)
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
inherit
1605
0
Dec 12, 2020 23:48:50 GMT
952
Cantina
Vive la révolution mages!
532
Sept 16, 2016 20:16:02 GMT
September 2016
cantina
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Cantina on May 28, 2018 3:05:27 GMT
The Qunari are not a "potential" threat. They have repeatedly and explicitly expressed that their intentions are to invade Thedas and forcibly convert the entire continent. Trying to forge any sort of genuine alliance with them is not only a waste of time, but foolhardy and dangerous. They've already made it clear that they intend to break the peace treaties that already exist. It's only a matter of time. Allowing the dreadnought to be destroyed pre-emptively weakens their forces, allows me to retain good, capable men of my own, and furthermore serves as a catalyst for Iron Bull to leave the Qun, which can only be a good thing. Good, capable men? They couldn't even hold off a squad of Venatori even with the high ground. Not to mention their questionable work history. Again, I blame Bioware for this.
When Bioware said they were looking at Skyrim for ideas, they must have veered off and looked into Fallout 4 too. When they saw the boy in the fridge idiocy, Bioware asked Bethesda to hold their beer.
The whole sodding quest for "Demands of the Qun" is a complete and utter joke of a quest. Hell, I'd rather deal with the boy in the fridge horseshit then this quest's crap.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
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Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 28, 2018 10:00:06 GMT
The Qunari are not a "potential" threat. They have repeatedly and explicitly expressed that their intentions are to invade Thedas and forcibly convert the entire continent. Trying to forge any sort of genuine alliance with them is not only a waste of time, but foolhardy and dangerous. They've already made it clear that they intend to break the peace treaties that already exist. It's only a matter of time. Allowing the dreadnought to be destroyed pre-emptively weakens their forces, allows me to retain good, capable men of my own, and furthermore serves as a catalyst for Iron Bull to leave the Qun, which can only be a good thing. Good, capable men? They couldn't even hold off a squad of Venatori even with the high ground. Not to mention their questionable work history. They successfully complete a number of war table missions for me, most of which only arise as a result of Krem taking the initiative to suggest them. So yes, capable men. Maybe they weren't suited for the job they were assigned to in Demand of the Qun, but then they shouldn't have been assigned to it. If they weren't capable, then Bull should not have brought them.
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Post by Iddy on May 28, 2018 13:29:33 GMT
Then we get to the whole Lyrium ghost.
This part is bullshit.
Players made mention to Gaider that in their Origin’s Lilly died. So, being the ass Gaider is, he threw in that lyrium ghost ending just to say, “Fuck you” and shut the players up. Yeah, he is a first-class prick. Ha, no doubt about it. Let's be real here: David Gaider IS Morrigan. He IS Shale. There was plenty of self-inserting in the creation of these characters.
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Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
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August 2016
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Post by opuspace on May 28, 2018 14:29:17 GMT
Good, capable men? They couldn't even hold off a squad of Venatori even with the high ground. Not to mention their questionable work history. They successfully complete a number of war table missions for me, most of which only arise as a result of Krem taking the initiative to suggest them. So yes, capable men. Maybe they weren't suited for the job they were assigned to in Demand of the Qun, but then they shouldn't have been assigned to it. If they weren't capable, then Bull should not have brought them. Taking down the envy demon of Therinfal Redoubt is pretty impressive if you choose to go to Redcliffe. And their capturing a Venatori Ally in Redcliffe if you recruit the Templars already proves their worth far more than faceless soldiers of the Qun. Considering how some people also use metaknowledge to determine their canon run, their freeing Tevinter slaves on their way to save Dorian puts them in a morally justified position as well. Inquisitor, The demon was clever enough to impersonate everyone from Seeker Pentaghast, to the Chief, to even me at one point, but we caught it and put it down. There wasn't much left of the body after we killed the thing, but it had missives with useful information. Most of them confirm what we already knew--the Elder One planning to kill Empress Celene and march an army of demons across Orlais--but I'll pass them to Sister Leliana regardless.
The demon also held some items the Inquisition might find handy. Hope they help.
Lieutenant Cremisius Aclassi
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3,266
August 2016
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 28, 2018 21:35:54 GMT
Considering how some people also use metaknowledge to determine their canon run, their freeing Tevinter slaves on their way to save Dorian puts them in a morally justified position as well. In what scenario does this happen?
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Post by opuspace on May 29, 2018 0:37:42 GMT
Considering how some people also use metaknowledge to determine their canon run, their freeing Tevinter slaves on their way to save Dorian puts them in a morally justified position as well. In what scenario does this happen? Do you mean when the Chargers save Dorian or the metagaming? I was thinking about the Trespasser ending if you mean when they're helping Dorian. It happens if they romance each other. Dorian and Bull romance
On one occasion, Venatori forces ambushed Dorian, who likely would have died... had not an unnamed mercenary band led by a Tal-Vashoth warrior crossed Tevinter's border and mounted a dangerous rescue operation. The mercenaries left a trail of freed slaves and dead Venatori in their wake, enabling Dorian to escape. When asked about the Tal-Vashoth in question, Magister Pavus declined to comment.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 29, 2018 1:27:49 GMT
opuspace I meant saving Dorian. Oh, well that explains why I didn't retain that (I've looked at their slide before), then, since he's my LI and I don't see that.
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Post by opuspace on May 29, 2018 1:30:15 GMT
opuspace I meant saving Dorian. Oh, well that explains why I didn't retain that (I've looked at their slide before), then, since he's my LI and I don't see that. I get that, it's an awfully specific outcome so it's harder to apply it as a guarantee when arguing for keeping the Chargers on a moral ground. But we can say that they have defended a village against bandits and accepted rice as their payment (begrudgingly) instead of extorting the village for more.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 29, 2018 1:43:37 GMT
opuspace I meant saving Dorian. Oh, well that explains why I didn't retain that (I've looked at their slide before), then, since he's my LI and I don't see that. I get that, it's an awfully specific outcome so it's harder to apply it as a guarantee when arguing for keeping the Chargers on a moral ground. But we can say that they have defended a village against bandits and accepted rice as their payment (begrudgingly) instead of extorting the village for more. My Inquisitor doesn't recruit Iron Bull, so saving the Chargers isn't a choice I have to make. My Inquisitor wants nothing at all to do with the Qunari; the fact that Iron Bull charmingly admits he's a spy does nothing to sway his opinion.
But even if he did [recruit Iron Bull] in spite of that, since you can't outright refuse the mission without also borking Iron Bull's character progression, that would be enough to go with the Chargers anyway. When you question Bull about it and show wariness, he admits -- several times! -- that having them in the South is bad, that he's wary as well, and makes no attempt to sugar coat what the Qunari's ultimate goal is. IMO any Inquisitor looking out for the long term interests of Thedas -- Corypheus and beyond -- should think that allying with the Qunari is a bad idea.
There are definitely practical considerations that come into play outside of "I had beer with the Chargers and I can't do that to Bull!"
[edit] Even if the Chargers were the most ineffectual merc band ever to walk the face of Thedas, the alternative is allying with the Qunari. In that case, a crappy merc band is still better than giving them an inroad to conquer southern Thedas.
The Fade choice, on the other hand, was shitty emotional manipulation on the part of the writers. I can't stand that choice. (But at least there is no perfect scenario, a la Connor.)
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Post by opuspace on May 29, 2018 1:52:15 GMT
I get that, it's an awfully specific outcome so it's harder to apply it as a guarantee when arguing for keeping the Chargers on a moral ground. But we can say that they have defended a village against bandits and accepted rice as their payment (begrudgingly) instead of extorting the village for more. My Inquisitor doesn't recruit Iron Bull, so saving the Chargers isn't a choice I have to make. My Inquisitor wants nothing at all to do with the Qunari; the fact that Iron Bull charmingly admits he's a spy does nothing to sway his opinion.
But even if he did [recruit Iron Bull] in spite of that, since you can't outright refuse the mission without also borking Iron Bull's character progression, that would be enough to go with the Chargers anyway. When you question Bull about it and show wariness, he admits -- several times! -- that having them in the South is bad, that he's wary as well, and makes no attempt to sugar coat what the Qunari's ultimate goal is. IMO any Inquisitor looking out for the long term interests of Thedas -- Corypheus and beyond -- should think that allying with the Qunari is a bad idea.
There are definitely practical considerations that come into play outside of "I had beer with the Chargers and I can't do that to Bull!"
The Fade choice, on the other hand, was shitty emotional manipulation on the part of the writers. I can't stand that choice. (But at least there is no perfect scenario, a la Connor.)
I was never really touched by the beer scene with the Chargers. One brief discussion with the members and getting their backstory is a really poor way to set up any bonding. But I was getting more and more annoyed with how the Demands of the Qun mission was being handled by the Qunari. I couldn't get questions like why did they bring just a dreadnought? Why didn't they prepare for mages the Venatori were obviously going to bring? When Gatt emphasized how high the stakes were, that's when the whole thing stank of a setup. If they wanted us to feel something for the Chargers, I'd have been more amused had one of them suddenly dropped off a rampart and landed on a pile of rags while the Inquisitor is walking around Skyhold. Having you hear other members yelling at them for trying a stupid tactic would have been a humanizing moment or have them near the catapults actually trying to launch stuffed nugs in Haven. As for Bull...yeah you do have to really pull gymnastics to justify bringing him in. But on the other hand, the Inquisition does need all the help it can get and is it going to be any less of a risk of spying accepting help from Qunari? It just seems to be a case of the enemy of my enemy is a temporary ally for now. At least alienating Bull from the Qun put one more peg into refusing to stay and sacrifice soldiers.
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nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 29, 2018 2:04:00 GMT
I was never really touched by the beer scene with the Chargers. If they wanted us to feel something for the Chargers I was more low-key mocking people that respond that way, cuz I'm a jerk. There are people who feel a connection to them based on the small bits that we get, and even more so with Krem since you can have more conversation with him. I think that beer scene was designed to evoke that in the player. Whether it does or not is up to an individual player -- I am also not affected by The Dawn Will Come scene, but many others are and found it inspirational/stirring -- but I do think that was the intent behind it. It's pretty conniving (in the best, evil writer way), actually, on the part of Patrick Weekes. You have this bonding scene and then are presented with the choice to kill these people. What will you do? On what criteria will you base your choice? My mocking aside, emotion is as good a criteria as any for someone's RP (no RP is wrong, IMO), just not one that I care for as Inquisitor.
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Post by opuspace on May 29, 2018 2:16:38 GMT
I was never really touched by the beer scene with the Chargers. If they wanted us to feel something for the Chargers I was more low-key mocking people that respond that way, cuz I'm a jerk. There are people who feel a connection to them based on the small bits that we get, and even more so with Krem since you can have more conversation with him. I think that beer scene was designed to evoke that in the player. Whether it does or not is up to an individual player -- I am also not affected by The Dawn Will Come scene, but many others are and found it inspirational/stirring -- but I do think that was the intent behind it. It's pretty conniving (in the best, evil writer way), actually, on the part of Patrick Weekes. You have this bonding scene and then are presented with the choice to kill these people. What will you do? On what criteria will you base your choice? My mocking aside, emotion is as good a criteria as any for someone's RP (no RP is wrong, IMO), just not one that I care for as Inquisitor. Bleh, I did not like the Dawn will Come either. Maybe it's because I can't skip it after seeing it the first few times. I think scenes like that are too obvious for me when trying to evoke emotional resonance. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. To each their own. I keep trying to feel something for the Solas romance and it doesn't do it for me even though it's so similar to Blackwall's. I'm not too bothered by sacrificing the Chargers either. I get it, there are decisions like that in real life where you do have an obligation to preserve an alliance and the Chargers know that their time will come someday. But I don't feel that the payoff is worth the effort and the consequences are minimal enough to risk. On a meta level, I prefer the good they bring to people.
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Post by Walter Black on May 29, 2018 15:00:04 GMT
I get that, it's an awfully specific outcome so it's harder to apply it as a guarantee when arguing for keeping the Chargers on a moral ground. But we can say that they have defended a village against bandits and accepted rice as their payment (begrudgingly) instead of extorting the village for more. My Inquisitor doesn't recruit Iron Bull, so saving the Chargers isn't a choice I have to make. My Inquisitor wants nothing at all to do with the Qunari; the fact that Iron Bull charmingly admits he's a spy does nothing to sway his opinion.
But even if he did [recruit Iron Bull] in spite of that, since you can't outright refuse the mission without also borking Iron Bull's character progression, that would be enough to go with the Chargers anyway. When you question Bull about it and show wariness, he admits -- several times! -- that having them in the South is bad, that he's wary as well, and makes no attempt to sugar coat what the Qunari's ultimate goal is. IMO any Inquisitor looking out for the long term interests of Thedas -- Corypheus and beyond -- should think that allying with the Qunari is a bad idea.
There are definitely practical considerations that come into play outside of "I had beer with the Chargers and I can't do that to Bull!"
[edit] Even if the Chargers were the most ineffectual merc band ever to walk the face of Thedas, the alternative is allying with the Qunari. In that case, a crappy merc band is still better than giving them an inroad to conquer southern Thedas.
The Fade choice, on the other hand, was shitty emotional manipulation on the part of the writers. I can't stand that choice. (But at least there is no perfect scenario, a la Connor.)
Even when I first played Origins, I always hated that one; they honestly expect us to believe that the demon that caused so much devastation was just going to sit tight while go to Kinloch Hold? Especially if we hadn't already done The Broken Circle? It might have different if we had to work harder for it (save every one in the village, clear enemy mobs in the castle up right up to Aemon's room, make a high Persuasion Check with Connor), leave someone behind to help watch (Alistair and Wynne would be good, I don't see Lelianna and Zevran being effective, the rest would end up killing Connor) and put it on a timer like when the Collectors steal your crew in ME2. But as it stands in the base game, the Circle option is just too damn Deus Ex Machina for me.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 29, 2018 15:20:59 GMT
Even when I first played Origins, I always hated that one; they honestly expect us to believe that the demon that caused so much devastation was just going to sit tight while go to Kinloch Hold? Especially if we hadn't already done The Broken Circle? It might have different if we had to work harder for it (save every one in the village, clear enemy mobs in the castle up right up to Aemon's room, make a high Persuasion Check with Connor), leave someone behind to help watch (Alistair and Wynne would be good, I don't see Lelianna and Zevran being effective, the rest would end up killing Connor) and put it on a timer like when the Collectors steal your crew in ME2. But as it stands in the base game, the Circle option is just too damn Deus Ex Machina for me Quite simply, if you hadn't done the Broken Circle already then if you left Connor unattended for that long it should have had adverse consequences. If you had done the Broken Circle quest, then it should have been a case of sending a message to them whilst you kept watch on Connor. The most annoying part is that there is no pleasing Alistair over it. Without meta-knowledge, dealing with the problem there and then is the most sensible thing to do but he holds it against you for doing so even though he has shown no inclination to take the lead on anything. Apparently the welfare of the village is not of importance to him even though as Grey Wardens it absolutely should be ahead of his own attachment to Arl Eamon and his family. It does seem a case that where we are being asked to make choices, particularly when they affect companions personally, the outcomes are very contrived.
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3/26/17: Pathfound something
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sumerian Physics on May 29, 2018 18:35:15 GMT
My problem with the quest are tonal. I've never ever felt the gravity of the choice. Like, it doesn't feel important.
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Post by pavellaning on May 29, 2018 22:05:25 GMT
My current Lavellan sacrificed them... ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BBCpsoiIHmyzmblpikow.png)
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Jun 2, 2018 16:15:32 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Vivienne is actually not a terrible Divine. She is the only one that Cassandra ultimately refuses to work with though. Considering she is still willing to work with a blood drenched Leliana, that really says something about the type of Divine that Vivienne is. I'm not a fan of Vivienne but that is a mark in her favor. Cassandra is a piece of crap.
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