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Post by fenris on Oct 7, 2016 7:07:51 GMT
A common complaint I hear about ME3 is that all the decisions you made during 3 games had no effect on the ending. I always disagreed with that to some extent, and think people judge the game unfairly, because ME2 had a great ending that took into consideration a lot of decisions. Here is how I see things: It's much easier to make decisions matter in the same game, which is what ME2 was all about. But when I look at ME2, I don't see any decisions from ME1 affecting the ending. Some of them affected the game itself, but didn't make it to the end. Some of those even made it to ME3! So what's my point? ME3 was a fantastic game (IMHO). There were dozens, if not hundreds of decisions I made during ME1 and ME2 which were considered, and affected how things played out, and they did it perfectly! So much so, that by the end the vast majority of my decisions were resolved and I was very content. True, a lot of those decisions didn't carry to the ending itself, but how could they? What did carry to the end? Mostly decisions I made in ME3 proper - who I romanced, who appears in the camp, etc. The mission itself truly wasn't the main point of it for me, and I didn't get to the end while thinking "nothing I did mattered." It mattered a lot, just before that point. I would like to give an example of why people had those expectations from Dragon Age: Origins: I keep hearing how in Dragon Age: Origins every decision you make affects the ending, etc. I just didn't feel it. A lot of the decisions affect what happens BEFORE the ending - during the landsmeet. But for the final mission? It's graphics. Instead of golems which deal 1 damage you get dwarves. Instead of elves you get werewolves. It's not that if you get elves with arrows, they shoot over the archdemon's head and he can't jump around, or that if you choose golems you have less ground troops to worry about during the fight. The end result is basically the same, but it made you feel as though it was different.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 7, 2016 12:17:06 GMT
ME3 was about getting a number. Didn't matter what that number is as long as the player has a number. Before the catalyst walks towards Shepard, it looks at the ems board. It sees the number the player has. That number tells the thing what choices, or choice, to mention to Shepard.
I got peace between the machines and organics. Don't care. You got a number, right? Yes. That's all I need to know. What about the genophage? I cured it. Yeah Big deal. Do you have a number? Yeah. But I also----I don't care what you did. All I care about is a number.
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 7, 2016 12:33:05 GMT
ME3 was a pretty poor game(IMHO), with some sections of quality, notably tuchanka, followed by an utter trainwreck of a finish. If it wasn’t for the fact I had built so much affection for the series and character based on first 2 games I wouldn’t have finished it or replayed it.
But here we’re limiting it to the notion of choice in the ending and not the myriad of issues outside of those narrow parameters Well we better start by talking about EMS/GR, It’s a generic, heavy handed unwieldy system to try and fashion choice through. So unlike Me2 where you have a specific choice leading to a result(don’t upgrade shields – death), this approach means all those choices get dumped in a big pot and stewed together and they lose their individuality to come up with a magic number. Unlike say DAO where if you recruit golems you can fight alongside those golems. Some consequences appear visually but they are passive. It’s just a bad way to make choices feel consequential. Then there’s the fact the mission feels completely on the rails. The mission should be the main point(alongside the aftermath), it’s the culmination of the journey. There’s no reason they couldn’t have developed and improved upon the wonderful notion of making decisions and assigning tasks that the suicide mission introduced. In ME2 there’s a sense of agency, assigning squad or degree of preparedness has visceral, personal results. Here it’s just so linear(with exception of Steve’s fate which is a flashback to how things were handled in ME2)
Since you brought it up I found whole camp scene not particularly great. ME2 squad including LI’s are reduced to video messages rather than being active assets. My LI told me to finish it and find her, pity that’s not a choice. All feels terribly staged eye of the storm moment because they know they haven’t bothered with any feels later.
If you include EC, the notion of choice in the final battle is eroded further by the Normandy landing and taking squad away. No choice to get reinforcements, no shep must stumble on to the set in stone encounter with Harbinger on his own whilst Normandy flies off to meet its mostly linear let’s flee and crash on Gilligan’s island.
I’m going to be corralled in slow motion section, compulsory shooting of Anderson. A moment of respite as your choices with TIM finally potentially give you a small branch in the road. Then it’s back into a linear path to the joke decision chamber where it turns out you can’t succeed without permission of the reapers. That certainly helps emphasise the sense of nothing you have done mattered. That’s a major robbing of agency, where your choices have boiled down to failure. You could have the highest EMS in the universe and you couldn’t succeed unless the enemy uplifts you.
Once you are uplifted the worst sort of choice rears its ugly head. Time for an ambush of all the consequences of using the superweapon because the last second is a good time for that! It would be like Mordin telling you genophage cure will kill all Asari just as he’s about to enter the cure. Why didn’t we have this discussion earlier. Why has control been limited to TIM and not seriously debated as an option. Oh wait let’s introduce a random new option, that bears more than a passing similarity to Saren’s. Good thing there’s a trustworthy source to spoon feed you this nonsense!
Not only as I’ve outlined are these terribly introduced, unbalanced, from an untrustworthy source but they turn out to boil down to 3 flavours of committing suicide. Personal choice has gone out of the window. Unlike ME2 or DAO there’s not a choice that delivers upon the notion of survival of protagonist alongside one that delivers their death. In DAO you can be selfless, selfish and reckless. The closest here is an abrupt detached joke breath scene and the chance to be trolled by devs with maybe ‘it’s a final breath’
Pre EC there’s no real epilogue unless you consider creepy grandpa it. Post EC there’s a slapdash effort, that's still short of even DAO’s interactive post ending game play and slides and texts and that’s in a game with a simpler ending involving killing an archdemon, not murder races/genetically rape people/install killbots as overlords.
So in summary, the effect of previous choices and live choices are either absent or utterly terribly implemented
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 7, 2016 13:21:42 GMT
ME3 was about getting a number. Didn't matter what that number is as long as the player has a number. Before the catalyst walks towards Shepard, it looks at the ems board. It sees the number the player has. That number tells the thing what choices, or choice, to mention to Shepard. Would've been better if the holokid was replaced with Alex Trebek or any other game show host. "Let's take a look at the board and see what you've won!" No, wait. Bob Barker
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 16:33:00 GMT
ME3 was a pretty poor game(IMHO), with some sections of quality, notably tuchanka, followed by an utter trainwreck of a finish. If it wasn’t for the fact I had built so much affection for the series and character based on first 2 games I wouldn’t have finished it or replayed it. But here we’re limiting it to the notion of choice in the ending and not the myriad of issues outside of those narrow parameters Well we better start by talking about EMS/GR, It’s a generic, heavy handed unwieldy system to try and fashion choice through. So unlike Me2 where you have a specific choice leading to a result(don’t upgrade shields – death), this approach means all those choices get dumped in a big pot and stewed together and they lose their individuality to come up with a magic number. Unlike say DAO where if you recruit golems you can fight alongside those golems. Some consequences appear visually but they are passive. It’s just a bad way to make choices feel consequential. Then there’s the fact the mission feels completely on the rails. The mission should be the main point(alongside the aftermath), it’s the culmination of the journey. There’s no reason they couldn’t have developed and improved upon the wonderful notion of making decisions and assigning tasks that the suicide mission introduced. In ME2 there’s a sense of agency, assigning squad or degree of preparedness has visceral, personal results. Here it’s just so linear(with exception of Steve’s fate which is a flashback to how things were handled in ME2) Since you brought it up I found whole camp scene not particularly great. ME2 squad including LI’s are reduced to video messages rather than being active assets. My LI told me to finish it and find her, pity that’s not a choice. All feels terribly staged eye of the storm moment because they know they haven’t bothered with any feels later. If you include EC, the notion of choice in the final battle is eroded further by the Normandy landing and taking squad away. No choice to get reinforcements, no shep must stumble on to the set in stone encounter with Harbinger on his own whilst Normandy flies off to meet its mostly linear let’s flee and crash on Gilligan’s island. I’m going to be corralled in slow motion section, compulsory shooting of Anderson. A moment of respite as your choices with TIM finally potentially give you a small branch in the road. Then it’s back into a linear path to the joke decision chamber where it turns out you can’t succeed without permission of the reapers. That certainly helps emphasise the sense of nothing you have done mattered. That’s a major robbing of agency, where your choices have boiled down to failure. You could have the highest EMS in the universe and you couldn’t succeed unless the enemy uplifts you. Once you are uplifted the worst sort of choice rears its ugly head. Time for an ambush of all the consequences of using the superweapon because the last second is a good time for that! It would be like Mordin telling you genophage cure will kill all Asari just as he’s about to enter the cure. Why didn’t we have this discussion earlier. Why has control been limited to TIM and not seriously debated as an option. Oh wait let’s introduce a random new option, that bears more than a passing similarity to Saren’s. Good thing there’s a trustworthy source to spoon feed you this nonsense! Not only as I’ve outlined are these terribly introduced, unbalanced, from an untrustworthy source but they turn out to boil down to 3 flavours of committing suicide. Personal choice has gone out of the window. Unlike ME2 or DAO there’s not a choice that delivers upon the notion of survival of protagonist alongside one that delivers their death. In DAO you can be selfless, selfish and reckless. The closest here is an abrupt detached joke breath scene and the chance to be trolled by devs with maybe ‘it’s a final breath’ Pre EC there’s no real epilogue unless you consider creepy grandpa it. Post EC there’s a slapdash effort, that's still short of even DAO’s interactive post ending game play and slides and texts and that’s in a game with a simpler ending involving killing an archdemon, not murder races/genetically rape people/install killbots as overlords. So in summary, the effect of previous choices and live choices are either absent or utterly terribly implemented How many times can I "like" this?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 16:41:53 GMT
ME3 was about getting a number. Didn't matter what that number is as long as the player has a number. Before the catalyst walks towards Shepard, it looks at the ems board. It sees the number the player has. That number tells the thing what choices, or choice, to mention to Shepard. Would've been better if the holokid was replaced with Alex Trebek or any other game show host. "Let's take a look at the board and see what you've won!" No, wait. Bob Barker How about Richard Dawson?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 19:28:25 GMT
ME3 was about getting a number. Didn't matter what that number is as long as the player has a number. Before the catalyst walks towards Shepard, it looks at the ems board. It sees the number the player has. That number tells the thing what choices, or choice, to mention to Shepard. I got peace between the machines and organics. Don't care. You got a number, right? Yes. That's all I need to know. What about the genophage? I cured it. Yeah Big deal. Do you have a number? Yeah. But I also----I don't care what you did. All I care about is a number. Not totally the case. For example, the Paragon/Renegade leaning also plays a bit of a role. As you've said many times, it determines whether or not Control or Destroy are offered as the singular choices below 1750 EMS. It also determines whether you get the "one who could save the many" or the "one who could lead the many" speech if the player selects control at any EMS level. Also, if you do effect a peace between the geth and quarians and select synthesis, the quarians, without their masks, are shown talking with geth in the ending slides. PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying it was perfectly done... or even all that well done. Just saying that the ending wasn't ONLY based on the EMS number.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 7, 2016 19:41:00 GMT
Not totally the case. For example, the Paragon/Renegade leaning also plays a bit of a role. Not when picking an ending I did say choice or choices Good thing I don't pick the blue or green The comment was for up to the ending. Not after. Since I can do a playthrough a certain way and you can have a playthrough this way with both getting the same ending. It doesn't matter what was done. Only the number matters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 20:00:06 GMT
Not totally the case. For example, the Paragon/Renegade leaning also plays a bit of a role. Not when picking an ending I did say choice or choices Good thing I don't pick the blue or green The comment was for up to the ending. Not after. Since I can do a playthrough a certain way and you can have a playthrough this way with both getting the same ending. It doesn't matter what was done. Only the number matters. Nothing done in the game really impacts the ending choices in ME1. Saren always dies but before he does the game looks at a number (charm/intimidate points) and decides whether or not you have to fight him... and that's all it decides. You can choose to save or kill the council regardless of leaning or anything you've done to that point... but really only the speech the council, Udina, or Anderson gives you will change depending on whether you're more paragon or renegade; and the background music will change. In the end, you get a red background or a blue one behind Shepard. What gets imported into ME2 isn't even very consistent... I've done playthroughs where I've gotten all the Renegade talk and music at the end of ME1... and the import still says I followed the "paragon path." I can even arbitrarily change who I appointed as councillor. ETA: ... and some of the Catalyst's offering dialogue does change depending on whether or not Shepard is paragon or renegade. For example (both high EMS):
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Post by fenris on Oct 7, 2016 20:01:58 GMT
Ok, so I read everyone's posts, but it seems none of them actually answered my original post and (again) only deal with the ending... Yeah, the ending sucks (I personally don't think it was THAT bad and like IT, but that's not my point). How do you make peace between the Quarians and the Geth if Legion died in ME2? No amount of numbers will help with that, and it is a direct result of choices from previous games affecting the outcome. Same thing with Wrex and the Krogans.
There are several such things in this game, none of which have anything to do with the ending, which is fine by me personally.
Not that the game is perfect, but still. People seem to expect this game to be like the first games, which is impractical in a game that is supposed to take in to account choices you made before (IMHO).
BTW ALL these types of games are number crunching, you just usually don't see it because it's coded. If anyone used the old NWN builder, it showed how that system is used to build quests, which is a very simple system really. ME2 had the same system, it just wasn't in the war table screen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 20:36:11 GMT
Ok, so I read everyone's posts, but it seems none of them actually answered my original post and (again) only deal with the ending... Yeah, the ending sucks (I personally don't think it was THAT bad and like IT, but that's not my point). How do you make peace between the Quarians and the Geth if Legion died in ME2? No amount of numbers will help with that, and it is a direct result of choices from previous games affecting the outcome. Same thing with Wrex and the Krogans. There are several such things in this game, none of which have anything to do with the ending, which is fine by me personally. Not that the game is perfect, but still. People seem to expect this game to be like the first games, which is impractical in a game that is supposed to take in to account choices you made before (IMHO). BTW ALL these types of games are number crunching, you just usually don't see it because it's coded. If anyone used the old NWN builder, it showed how that system is used to build quests, which is a very simple system really. ME2 had the same system, it just wasn't in the war table screen. To directly address the OP - I agree with you.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 21:06:03 GMT
Ok, so I read everyone's posts, but it seems none of them actually answered my original post and (again) only deal with the ending... Yeah, the ending sucks (I personally don't think it was THAT bad and like IT, but that's not my point). How do you make peace between the Quarians and the Geth if Legion died in ME2? No amount of numbers will help with that, and it is a direct result of choices from previous games affecting the outcome. Same thing with Wrex and the Krogans. There are several such things in this game, none of which have anything to do with the ending, which is fine by me personally. Not that the game is perfect, but still. People seem to expect this game to be like the first games, which is impractical in a game that is supposed to take in to account choices you made before (IMHO). BTW ALL these types of games are number crunching, you just usually don't see it because it's coded. If anyone used the old NWN builder, it showed how that system is used to build quests, which is a very simple system really. ME2 had the same system, it just wasn't in the war table screen. Rannoch is actually pretty good in that its outcome is based on choices made in both ME2 and ME3. But in the end, aside from different War Asset numbers, how does saving the quarians, the geth, or both affect anything in the game? What missions does it unlock? Does it make some endings easier or harder? Everything you did in ME3 (and by extension, the previous games) all boils down to an arbitrary number that determines your ending. It doesn't matter how you played the game. paragon, renegade, or a mix. Who you saved, who you screwed over or killed. When you're standing in the decision chamber before Starbrat, all that matters is the number.
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Post by straykat on Oct 7, 2016 21:09:38 GMT
Ok, so I read everyone's posts, but it seems none of them actually answered my original post and (again) only deal with the ending... Yeah, the ending sucks (I personally don't think it was THAT bad and like IT, but that's not my point). How do you make peace between the Quarians and the Geth if Legion died in ME2? No amount of numbers will help with that, and it is a direct result of choices from previous games affecting the outcome. Same thing with Wrex and the Krogans. There are several such things in this game, none of which have anything to do with the ending, which is fine by me personally. Not that the game is perfect, but still. People seem to expect this game to be like the first games, which is impractical in a game that is supposed to take in to account choices you made before (IMHO). BTW ALL these types of games are number crunching, you just usually don't see it because it's coded. If anyone used the old NWN builder, it showed how that system is used to build quests, which is a very simple system really. ME2 had the same system, it just wasn't in the war table screen. Rannoch is actually pretty good in that its outcome is based on choices made in both ME2 and ME3. But in the end, aside from different War Asset numbers, how does saving the quarians, the geth, or both affect anything in the game? What missions does it unlock? Does it make some endings easier or harder? Everything you did in ME3 (and by extension, the previous games) all boils down to an arbitrary number that determines your ending. It doesn't matter how you played the game. paragon, renegade, or a mix. Who you saved, who you screwed over or killed. When you're standing in the decision chamber before Starbrat, all that matters is the number. This is true. But there's still a lot of meaning you can bring into this yourself, to make it work. As a game, it could have been much better. Bit you're still your own "movie director" of sorts.. you still give things unique flavor by how you reached point A to B - and with whom.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 21:12:44 GMT
Rannoch is actually pretty good in that its outcome is based on choices made in both ME2 and ME3. But in the end, aside from different War Asset numbers, how does saving the quarians, the geth, or both affect anything in the game? What missions does it unlock? Does it make some endings easier or harder? Everything you did in ME3 (and by extension, the previous games) all boils down to an arbitrary number that determines your ending. It doesn't matter how you played the game. paragon, renegade, or a mix. Who you saved, who you screwed over or killed. When you're standing in the decision chamber before Starbrat, all that matters is the number. This is true. But there's still a lot of meaning you can bring into this yourself, to make it work. As a game, it could have been much better. Bit you're still your own "movie director" of sorts.. you still give things unique flavor by how you reached point A to B - and with whom. Well to me the "meaning" is "No matter how much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference"
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Post by straykat on Oct 7, 2016 21:23:17 GMT
This is true. But there's still a lot of meaning you can bring into this yourself, to make it work. As a game, it could have been much better. Bit you're still your own "movie director" of sorts.. you still give things unique flavor by how you reached point A to B - and with whom. Well to me the "meaning" is "No matter how much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference" Well, I'm here to tell you that your opinion matters as well. Bring something to it yourself Not that you don't do that -- I think you do. But I'll repeat it. It'd be nice to get feedback and consequence to a lot of these choices, and I think they got lazy (and/or rushed), but there's still meaning in your own values and favorite characters. You don't need anyone else to tell you that. All of these things to me are like symbols to play around with and configure your story around. I don't necessarily need detailed narrative. There's still narrative there.. you just have to read between the lines.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 21:33:39 GMT
This is true. But there's still a lot of meaning you can bring into this yourself, to make it work. As a game, it could have been much better. Bit you're still your own "movie director" of sorts.. you still give things unique flavor by how you reached point A to B - and with whom. Well to me the "meaning" is "No matter how much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference" The same holds true for ME1 though. If the Trilogy did not go into a second game, none of the choices you made during the entire ME1 game had any significant impact on the ending of ME1. It was impossible to end the game without killing Saren and Sovereign. The player can't choose to shake hands with Saren and join him instead regardless of professed paragon or renegade leanings. Killing or saving the council did not make any significant difference (that is, ME1 never showed any impact of either choice beyond some dialogue differences in the ending speeches). Regardless, Shepard is thanked and goes off to find a way to stop the Reapers. The potential impact Vigil implies earlier (that wiping out the Prothean government right at the beginning of the war allowed the Reapers to win far more quickly) is not addressed even in ME2 beyond a few of the people complaining about the installed all human government. If ME3 is a bad game, then ME1 was a worse one... and the reality is that most people don't feel THAT way about ME1.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 7, 2016 22:15:08 GMT
Choices do matter.
Are people really attempting to use War Assets as legitimate argument why choices don't matter? The act of getting war assists is a choice in and of it self.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 22:55:04 GMT
Well to me the "meaning" is "No matter how much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference" The same holds true for ME1 though. If the Trilogy did not go into a second game, none of the choices you made during the entire ME1 game had any significant impact on the ending of ME1. It was impossible to end the game without killing Saren and Sovereign. The player can't choose to shake hands with Saren and join him instead regardless of professed paragon or renegade leanings. Killing or saving the council did not make any significant difference (that is, ME1 never showed any impact of either choice beyond some dialogue differences in the ending speeches). Regardless, Shepard is thanked and goes off to find a way to stop the Reapers. The potential impact Vigil implies earlier (that wiping out the Prothean government right at the beginning of the war allowed the Reapers to win far more quickly) is not addressed even in ME2 beyond a few of the people complaining about the installed all human government. If ME3 is a bad game, then ME1 was a worse one... and the reality is that most people don't feel THAT way about ME1. If ME1 was a standalone game, then yeah. But it was meant to be the first of a trilogy. Do you recall the excitement while ME3 was in development, about how all these "big choices" would finally come to a head? Speculating on all the potential paths to defeating the Reapers? The rachni queen, the Collector base, the state of Feros, the status of the Council, Joram Talid, Morinth, etc, etc. Turns out the only choices that "mattered" were: Did you keep or destroy Maelon's data, and the status of Tali and Legion at the end of the game.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 7, 2016 22:57:21 GMT
Turns out the only choices that "mattered" were: Did you keep or destroy Maelon's data, and the status of Tali and Legion at the end of the game. ME3 default playthrough doesn't agree.
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Post by fenris on Oct 7, 2016 23:31:29 GMT
As a general rule, I play Bioware games two times in a row - the first time I use the general, no previous loads, default game. Then I play them with my original play of previous games. I can tell you that ME3 is SO DIFFERENT if not loading previous games, meaning my choices made A LOT of difference, just not at the end.
A lot of the choices resolved BEFORE the end of the game, is my point. It doesn't matter if you made peace between the Quarians and Geth? I think it mattered a great deal, it simply didn't affect the game's ending. More so - there were way too many stories and choices to actually affect the ending.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 9, 2016 7:19:32 GMT
I think there are two differents aspects of this problem.
Overall, the statement that your choices don't matter is completely false. There's a great deal of continuity created by past decisions at many points in the game, apparent in dialogue changes, cutscene changes (for instance in the EC), NPC changes, etc. etc.
The problem that created this impression is that no decision affected the final mission and the Catalyst conversation at all. We don't see different fleets showing up depending on our decision at Rannoch. We can't speak with the Catalyst about making peace on Rannoch, which is a very relevant outcome considering the problem it asserts. As opposed to ME2's final mission, we can't make any decision about how ME3's final mission goes. We have visible differences in outcomes before this mission, and we have visible differences after it in the EC epilogues, but here, where it matters most and where we would want, need it most, things are completely on rails. We are at the whim of the "AI god" that controls the Reapers, which is about the worst possible place to be at the time it matters most, and nothing we did before could affect that in any way.
Technically, it is comparable to not being able to affect the final fight of ME2 with any decision. We couldn't do that either, we always had that encounter and we always had to fight there, but the difference is that we weren't at the whim of the enemy's leader so it was ok, and people put up with it.
I think all of the problems with the ending - as opposed to other major problems affecting the game as a whole - eventually come down to this: the enemy leader, not we, had complete agency in the end, and we had to implement one of its solutions or let the galaxy die. It was the ultimate blackmail, and I think we could reasonably expect things not to be like that. Not having a choice there, or not seeing effects dependent on past choices - as not having a choice in so many other final encounters in many, many storytelling games - would not have mattered at all had we not been forced to act according to the enemy leader's plans.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 9, 2016 18:28:55 GMT
If ME1 was a standalone game, then yeah. But it was meant to be the first of a trilogy. Actually that's not true. At the time they weren't sure if they were going to make another game, if the first would would be well received. It was all up in the air. ME1 is a very self-contained story. Furthermore who starts a trilogy by going right to the omnicidal world-ending villain? It was made to stand on its own. That's part of the problem, too. They set up a very interesting world to explore but already placed it in the shadow of these all powerful villains. Unless you're a complete moron, you don't do that for the first installment of a trilogy. It works for a standalone story but it kills worldbuilding, something you need to continue the franchise. The lack of planning for how future installments would develop is probably the biggest fault in each game.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 18:43:08 GMT
If ME1 was a standalone game, then yeah. But it was meant to be the first of a trilogy. Actually that's not true. At the time they weren't sure if they were going to make another game, if the first would would be well received. It was all up in the air. ME1 is a very self-contained story. Furthermore who starts a trilogy by going right to the omnicidal world-ending villain? It was made to stand on its own. That's part of the problem, too. They set up a very interesting world to explore but already placed it in the shadow of these all powerful villains. Unless you're a complete moron, you don't do that for the first installment of a trilogy. It works for a standalone story but it kills worldbuilding, something you need to continue the franchise. The lack of planning for how future installments would develop is probably the biggest fault in each game. I agree... and think the cause was more a continually changing of the guard that inevitably brought about some mid-course changes. New people bring in new ideas and, in trying to incorporate those, the old ideas became weakened and sometimes outright shunted aside in the process.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 10, 2016 12:55:11 GMT
I think the choices I make matter from an RP perspective. If I'm invested in Shepard, and making Shepard true to form throughout, I have a lot of impact on "what comes next" - which is something we don't get to see. As a numbers game, it doesn't matter whether or not I save the geth or the quarians, if I side with the krogan or the salarians. But this all motivates what kind of game experience I have. Ultimately, though I try to bring peace between the geth and the quarians - because that's a thing my Shepard's tend to find "good", the geth are still going to die in the end when I choose Destroy.
Honestly, I can't see how BW could have had as many diverse endings as people here wanted to address every tiny decision made. Decisions made an end-game difference in a very general way. Still, my Shepard would like to save the salarian councilor from Kai Leng but is prevented from doing so if I didn't take care that Thane and/or Kirrahe survived. My decisions regarding those two has a direct impact here.
I also don't think the endings were terrible. I freely admit wanting Shepard to survive and live life with the LI guides the end choice I make. That doesn't mean Synthesis and Control are wrong - they just don't fit with the Happy Ending for Shepard that I want.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 10, 2016 14:40:43 GMT
If ME1 was a standalone game, then yeah. But it was meant to be the first of a trilogy. Actually that's not true. At the time they weren't sure if they were going to make another game, if the first would would be well received. It was all up in the air. ME1 is a very self-contained story. Furthermore who starts a trilogy by going right to the omnicidal world-ending villain? It was made to stand on its own. That's part of the problem, too. They set up a very interesting world to explore but already placed it in the shadow of these all powerful villains. Unless you're a complete moron, you don't do that for the first installment of a trilogy. It works for a standalone story but it kills worldbuilding, something you need to continue the franchise. The lack of planning for how future installments would develop is probably the biggest fault in each game. They weren't certain. But that was absolutely the intention. Otherwise why would they bother to record choices made? ME1 "stands on its own" about as well as The Fellowship of the Ring does. One arc closes, but the bigger story remained. But yes the lack of any actual planning pretty much guaranteed the story was going to end up crashing and burning.
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