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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 3:19:19 GMT
A. Don't presume to diagnose the problem with my car... I live in Canada... hot temperatures were not the issue. All batteries were replacements provided by the dealer under warranty because they had to honor the warranty even though they could not find the problem with the car. If the dealer was having such a problem with the brand of battery they were using, they would have been replacing them in all the vehicles they sold during that two-year period... and probably would have changed battery brands long prior to my having to replace the 6th one. When the warranty ran out on the car... I traded it in. The newer car's first battery lasted five years. B. As for the rest, I'm not going any deeper into an argument with you. I disagree with you and I stated why. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. A. I was repeating what I thought was common knowledge about temperature both hot and cold extremes effecting batteries. Using my own car as an example. How it can effect how their ability to hold a charge and how lead acid batteries have "memory" which can further reduce the amount of charge it can hold. And while I don't have first hand specifics about Canadian Care Dealerships in US the battery they provide isn't necessarily the best. Closer would be one they make a deal with to sell and use. As well as small things such as bad battery terminal connection that can prevent the battery from being charged by the alternator. I'm not really diagnosing anything I'm listen common problems that lead to premature dead batteries. Though that isn't listing stuff like leaving head lights on or stuff plugged in that act as power vampires to the battery. Which wouldn't list as anything wrong with the car. Combine it with really short trips would drain more then it could be charged. B. If your going to tell me that water has memory and that it can remember a single drop of onion juice from 4 months ago. Which defies all the laws of physics. Your also going to have to explain how it some how forgets all the poo that has been in it. A. I don't believe that anyone can be so arrogant as to think they can diagnose a problem with a car sight unseen that a dealer's mechanical department could not diagnose after numerous trips to them over two years (winter and summer) and 6, I repeat 6, replaced batteries. Besides that is complete aside from the purpose of the analogy and completely off the topic of this thread. B. I repeat... I am not going any further into that argument with you.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 16, 2016 3:57:22 GMT
A. I was repeating what I thought was common knowledge about temperature both hot and cold extremes effecting batteries. Using my own car as an example. How it can effect how their ability to hold a charge and how lead acid batteries have "memory" which can further reduce the amount of charge it can hold. And while I don't have first hand specifics about Canadian Care Dealerships in US the battery they provide isn't necessarily the best. Closer would be one they make a deal with to sell and use. As well as small things such as bad battery terminal connection that can prevent the battery from being charged by the alternator. I'm not really diagnosing anything I'm listen common problems that lead to premature dead batteries. Though that isn't listing stuff like leaving head lights on or stuff plugged in that act as power vampires to the battery. Which wouldn't list as anything wrong with the car. Combine it with really short trips would drain more then it could be charged. B. If your going to tell me that water has memory and that it can remember a single drop of onion juice from 4 months ago. Which defies all the laws of physics. Your also going to have to explain how it some how forgets all the poo that has been in it. A. I don't believe that anyone can be so arrogant as to think they can diagnose a problem with a car sight unseen that a dealer's mechanical department could not diagnose after numerous trips to them over two years (winter and summer) and 6, I repeat 6, replaced batteries. Besides that is complete aside from the purpose of the analogy and completely off the topic of this thread. B. I repeat... I am not going any further into that argument with you. I'm not diagnosing anything I'm listing common problems that lead to batteries failing long before they normally should. If having basic automotive repair knowledge and sharing common problems count as arrogant then I guess I am. And again different nations so maybe dealership means more there. But in US the vast majority of dealerships aren't actually owned by the car company. And the workers they hire aren't necessarily top of the line in skills and/or knowledge. Yes people who generally don't have much ground to stand on for their point tend not to want to talk about it. Fact is the claim that the Citadel represents a criticism of modern life relying on technology we don't understand (which is fairly bogus btw) doesn't match up at all to what is shown in game. Specifically how every race is actively seeking out and attempting to learn anything and everything from the scraps of Prothean technology like the Beacon possible.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 12:09:56 GMT
A. I don't believe that anyone can be so arrogant as to think they can diagnose a problem with a car sight unseen that a dealer's mechanical department could not diagnose after numerous trips to them over two years (winter and summer) and 6, I repeat 6, replaced batteries. Besides that is complete aside from the purpose of the analogy and completely off the topic of this thread. B. I repeat... I am not going any further into that argument with you. I'm not diagnosing anything I'm listing common problems that lead to batteries failing long before they normally should. If having basic automotive repair knowledge and sharing common problems count as arrogant then I guess I am. And again different nations so maybe dealership means more there. But in US the vast majority of dealerships aren't actually owned by the car company. And the workers they hire aren't necessarily top of the line in skills and/or knowledge. Yes people who generally don't have much ground to stand on for their point tend not to want to talk about it. Fact is the claim that the Citadel represents a criticism of modern life relying on technology we don't understand (which is fairly bogus btw) doesn't match up at all to what is shown in game. Specifically how every race is actively seeking out and attempting to learn anything and everything from the scraps of Prothean technology like the Beacon possible. Please continue. I have said everything I'm going to say on either my car or your insults about MY OPINION on the Citadel.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 17, 2016 10:44:12 GMT
The only way I can stomach a replay is by using the MEHEM and CE mods MEHEM sounds awesome! But what is CE? Unless you meant EC? I don't like MEHEM. Thematically, it's almost as problematic as the OE. If I could request my own EC, it would have these elements (High EMS variants only in this description): (1) The Catalyst would be removed. Instead, we find the information about what each of the ending choices do through a different agent. Possibly another prothean VI, or even better, our own scientists and engineers find things out just in time. If, for reasons of coherence, the Reapers need a controlling agent, it is one we barely, or not at all, interact with before the Crucible affects it. (2) The role of the Citadel and the Crucible are changed. The Citadel is the power source and connects the Crucible to the relays, the Crucible is the machine that can program the Citadel do to things. (2a) The decision chamber is removed. No more "shoot the tube to make this machine functional" nonsense. The decisions are implemented by starting up pre-programmed sequences within the Crucible. There are many more options, but the scientists didn't manage to decipher more than these three. The Crucible interface is a part of the Citadel, and there is a Prothean device attached to it left behind by the Prothean scientists who changed the Keeper signal. Shepard can interface with it using the Cipher. (3) The purpose of the Reapers as the Catalyst explains it is mentioned as one possible conclusion about what their purpose is, but no compelling conclusion can be drawn from the data available and things remain murky enough that it's clear we need not accept it. When confronted with this purpose, Shepard has several options to reply, partly dependent on how you resolved the geth/quarian conflict. (4) The themes of the three choices are maintained, but they're changed to stress their positive aspects and most downsides, apart from the fact that half of the galaxies' civilizations are dead, are removed. In detail (I omit any companion-specific scenes in this description): (4a) Destroy: This is a classic good ending with conventional themes. If you choose Destroy, the geth are still destroyed (you can't remove that without a thematic overhaul), but you get a happy ending for Shepard with them reuniting with their LI in the ruins of Earth. Scenes of ardent rebuilding follow. Cut to 400 years later. The camera sweeps over a futuristic city, homing in on a statue of Shepard and their LI looking up at the stars. The final scene has a fleet of sleek spaceships leaving the solar system. The camera homes in to a galaxy. Cut. (4b) Synthesis: this is a "weird" good ending with transhumanist themes. If you choose Synthesis, not all life is changed. Instead, only Shepard is changed and becomes the avatar of Synthesis, able to spread the change to others. How Shepard is shown to do that depends on the P/R score. The Reapers do survive, but they become a remote lifeform occasionally called on for advice but they aren't involved in rebuilding. Epilogue scenes show a city with a crystal-themed architecture, and a human standing near a block of apparent stone, extruding a complicated-looking tool out of her finger into it, after which around it, a building starts building itself apparently out of nothing. Another scene sees a man morphing into a woman. I'm not sure whether nor to put Shepard into the scene. (4c) If you choose Control, Shepard does become the Reapers' controlling agent, but with a much more hands-off philosophy. You will get the additional option to make the Reapers just fly away. In that scenario, there are hints of CrutchCricket's Control interpretation.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 17, 2016 12:51:54 GMT
I'm not diagnosing anything I'm listing common problems that lead to batteries failing long before they normally should. If having basic automotive repair knowledge and sharing common problems count as arrogant then I guess I am. And again different nations so maybe dealership means more there. But in US the vast majority of dealerships aren't actually owned by the car company. And the workers they hire aren't necessarily top of the line in skills and/or knowledge. Yes people who generally don't have much ground to stand on for their point tend not to want to talk about it. Fact is the claim that the Citadel represents a criticism of modern life relying on technology we don't understand (which is fairly bogus btw) doesn't match up at all to what is shown in game. Specifically how every race is actively seeking out and attempting to learn anything and everything from the scraps of Prothean technology like the Beacon possible. Please continue. I have said everything I'm going to say on either my car or your insults about MY OPINION on the Citadel. Yes your opinion backed up by nothing shown in game. Have we really reached this point as a society were opinions are now some safe space. That you are allowed to say what ever it is but when you have someone question it you retreat into a shell declaring it your opinion. As if your opinion is some how sacred and can never be challenged because it is your opinion?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:34:35 GMT
Please continue. I have said everything I'm going to say on either my car or your insults about MY OPINION on the Citadel. Yes your opinion backed up by nothing shown in game. Have we really reached this point as a society were opinions are now some safe space. That you are allowed to say what ever it is but when you have someone question it you retreat into a shell declaring it your opinion. As if your opinion is some how sacred and can never be challenged because it is your opinion? I have already stated how I believe my opinion is backed up by things contained within the game. It is your opinion (and opinion only) that my opinion is not backed up by things within the game. You can insult and bait me all you like... but we really do not have anything more to discuss with each other. I am not running away from the conversation (as you seem to believe) but there is really no point in my repeating myself again and again. You are, of course, free to continue to describe and back up your opinions on the citadel, etc. in additional posts without my input... so please, continue.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 14:40:17 GMT
(4a) Destroy: This is a classic good ending with conventional themes. If you choose Destroy, the geth are still destroyed (you can't remove that without a thematic overhaul), but you get a happy ending for Shepard with them reuniting with their LI in the ruins of Earth. Scenes of ardent rebuilding follow. Cut to 400 years later. The camera sweeps over a futuristic city, homing in on a statue of Shepard and their LI looking up at the stars. The final scene has a fleet of sleek spaceships leaving the solar system. The camera homes in to a galaxy. Cut. (4b) Synthesis: this is a "weird" good ending with transhumanist themes. If you choose Synthesis, not all life is changed. Instead, only Shepard is changed and becomes the avatar of Synthesis, able to spread the change to others. How Shepard is shown to do that depends on the P/R score. The Reapers do survive, but they become a remote lifeform occasionally called on for advice but they aren't involved in rebuilding. Epilogue scenes show a city with a crystal-themed architecture, and a human standing near a block of apparent stone, extruding a complicated-looking tool out of her finger into it, after which around it, a building starts building itself apparently out of nothing. Another scene sees a man morphing into a woman. I'm not sure whether nor to put Shepard into the scene. (4c) If you choose Control, Shepard does become the Reapers' controlling agent, but with a much more hands-off philosophy. You will get the additional option to make the Reapers just fly away. In that scenario, there are hints of CrutchCricket's Control interpretation. Nice. I like all your suggestions, and the idea of the "murky purpose" due to a lack of controlling or other knowledgeable agent (like a Prothean VI) hadn't occured to me, but it's the perfect compromise between people who want to know why the Reapers are and people who'd prefer it remain a mystery. My only objection is with the geth in destroy. I've always rejected that idea, themes or no themes, but now that the purpose is murky, so too are the themes I think. I agree with you about showing the good of the endings as the differentiation points- I've always said to make it clear that each choice is a different kind of victory, with Destroy being a simple "we defeated our enemies" victory, Control being a victory of the individual and Synthesis being a victory of aggregate transcension, the dawn of a new age. But losing the geth has no place in that, any more than the existing casualties of any other race. But if you must have it for the theme, let it then be dependent on the outcome of Rannoch. If you can't make peace, you're proving the hypothesis that peace can't exist between organics and synthetics and thus enforcing the theme. So if you pick the geth and destroy, the latter are wiped out. But if you do make peace, you've proven the hypothesis wrong and rejected the theme. Therefore the geth survive. The details of how can be handwaved easily enough. And congratulations, you must be the first to provide synthesis imagery that actually makes it appealing for me. I have already stated how I believe my opinion is backed up by things contained within the game. It is your opinion (and opinion only) that my opinion is not backed up by things within the game. You can insult and bait me all you like... but we really do not have anything more to discuss with each other. I am not running away from the conversation (as you seem to believe) but there is really no point in my repeating myself again and again. You are, of course, free to continue to describe and back up your opinions on the citadel, etc. in additional posts without my input... so please, continue. Kudos for being able to stop as early as you did. I should've done the same a page ago.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 15:03:58 GMT
(4a) Destroy: This is a classic good ending with conventional themes. If you choose Destroy, the geth are still destroyed (you can't remove that without a thematic overhaul), but you get a happy ending for Shepard with them reuniting with their LI in the ruins of Earth. Scenes of ardent rebuilding follow. Cut to 400 years later. The camera sweeps over a futuristic city, homing in on a statue of Shepard and their LI looking up at the stars. The final scene has a fleet of sleek spaceships leaving the solar system. The camera homes in to a galaxy. Cut. (4b) Synthesis: this is a "weird" good ending with transhumanist themes. If you choose Synthesis, not all life is changed. Instead, only Shepard is changed and becomes the avatar of Synthesis, able to spread the change to others. How Shepard is shown to do that depends on the P/R score. The Reapers do survive, but they become a remote lifeform occasionally called on for advice but they aren't involved in rebuilding. Epilogue scenes show a city with a crystal-themed architecture, and a human standing near a block of apparent stone, extruding a complicated-looking tool out of her finger into it, after which around it, a building starts building itself apparently out of nothing. Another scene sees a man morphing into a woman. I'm not sure whether nor to put Shepard into the scene. (4c) If you choose Control, Shepard does become the Reapers' controlling agent, but with a much more hands-off philosophy. You will get the additional option to make the Reapers just fly away. In that scenario, there are hints of CrutchCricket's Control interpretation. I do think your ideas are far and away better than what ME3 stuck us with. I do have a quibble though: I don't think that any ending resulting in deliberately wiping out allies can be a "classic good ending". What I would go with is the geth, EDI, and any other AIs with Reaper tech would be "rolled back" to their previous iteration. This would result in their being diminished, but not destroyed. And with the knowledge that they now know it is possible to achieve these levels of sophistication. The relays are damaged beyond the ability to repair, though they do NOT rupture. This leads to a "galactic dark age" possibly lasting centuries. But the races are able to study the relays and eventually build their own network. In fact, I'd keep your "400 years later" epilogue scene and place it at the opening of a new relay joining the rebuilt network. I'd name that ending "The Slow Path"
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 15:14:59 GMT
What I would go with is the geth, EDI, and any other AIs with Reaper tech would be "rolled back" to their previous iteration. This would result in their being diminished, but not destroyed. And with the knowledge that they now know it is possible to achieve these levels of sophistication. The relays are damaged beyond the ability to repair, though they do NOT rupture. This leads to a "galactic dark age" possibly lasting centuries. But the races are able to study the relays and eventually build their own network. In fact, I'd keep your "400 years later" epilogue scene and place it at the opening of a new relay joining the rebuilt network. I'd name that ending "The Slow Path" I think that would be harder to explain than simple destruction. You would again go from the red wave as simply an advanced EMP of sorts to pure space magic that specifically knows how to access the root folder of every piece of technology, determine whether it's AI or not and uninstall the latest update. Destroying most of the geth is a better compromise. And you actually like the "dark age" thing? I'm shocked. Why? Apart from the cheapness of literally changing the color filter of the cutscenes, teh dark age was the most hated aspect of the original endings.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 15:27:19 GMT
What I would go with is the geth, EDI, and any other AIs with Reaper tech would be "rolled back" to their previous iteration. This would result in their being diminished, but not destroyed. And with the knowledge that they now know it is possible to achieve these levels of sophistication. The relays are damaged beyond the ability to repair, though they do NOT rupture. This leads to a "galactic dark age" possibly lasting centuries. But the races are able to study the relays and eventually build their own network. In fact, I'd keep your "400 years later" epilogue scene and place it at the opening of a new relay joining the rebuilt network. I'd name that ending "The Slow Path" I think that would be harder to explain than simple destruction. You would again go from the red wave as simply an advanced EMP of sorts to pure space magic that specifically knows how to access the root folder of every piece of technology, determine whether it's AI or not and uninstall the latest update. Destroying most of the geth is a better compromise. And you actually like the "dark age" thing? I'm shocked. Why? Apart from the cheapness of literally changing the color filter of the cutscenes, teh dark age was the most hated aspect of the original endings. The red wave is already pure space magic in that it already effectively does that? Why does it kill an AI and leave a VI alone? Why would it endanger Shepard for his/her cybernetic implants and leave biotics (who have cybernetic implants in their brains and nervous systems) alone? And I like the dark age because I think it fits ME3's "sacrifice" theme better than the arbitrary "feelz" Mac saddled us with. We're at war with Space Cthulhu, the masters of mass effect technology, and the tech we are most dependent on was specifically designed for us to be dependent on it. Ever since Sovereign revealed that detail in ME1, I suspected that the Citadel and/or the relay network would have to be destroyed by the end of the trilogy. I was completely prepared for that.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 16:42:02 GMT
The red wave is already pure space magic in that it already effectively does that? Why does it kill an AI and leave a VI alone? Why would it endanger Shepard for his/her cybernetic implants and leave biotics (who have cybernetic implants in their brains and nervous systems) alone? And I like the dark age because I think it fits ME3's "sacrifice" theme better than the arbitrary "feelz" Mac saddled us with. We're at war with Space Cthulhu, the masters of mass effect technology, and the tech we are most dependent on was specifically designed for us to be dependent on it. Ever since Sovereign revealed that detail in ME1, I suspected that the Citadel and/or the relay network would have to be destroyed by the end of the trilogy. I was completely prepared for that. I had a theory about that years ago. The red wave can sort AIs from not AIs by uploading a "test infection" that only an AI would be able to fight. Dumb systems (VIs, normal computers etc.) get infected right away but by so doing are saved from the larger infection which would overload them and cause them to violently self-destruct. Actually, something like this would also work in the holokid's favor since it believes so much in its bullshit that even if the piddly organic wants to destroy its precious killbots, this at least gives it a better chance of fulfilling its programming. Imagine the "test infect" replicated itself to every new dumb system and made itself integral to the coding of any new technology developed. As soon as any system gained sentience and tried to purge it, the code would overload the thing and destroy it. It'd be a techno-genophage. I literally just came up with that and it's still a better solution than the "yo dawg" nonsense. Yeah, no I don't like that. The Reapers may be the masters of mass relays but we just kicked their ass (even if we had to use a deus ex machina to do it.) We destroyed them, what's theirs' is ours now. To the victor go the spoils.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 16:50:07 GMT
The red wave is already pure space magic in that it already effectively does that? Why does it kill an AI and leave a VI alone? Why would it endanger Shepard for his/her cybernetic implants and leave biotics (who have cybernetic implants in their brains and nervous systems) alone? And I like the dark age because I think it fits ME3's "sacrifice" theme better than the arbitrary "feelz" Mac saddled us with. We're at war with Space Cthulhu, the masters of mass effect technology, and the tech we are most dependent on was specifically designed for us to be dependent on it. Ever since Sovereign revealed that detail in ME1, I suspected that the Citadel and/or the relay network would have to be destroyed by the end of the trilogy. I was completely prepared for that. I had a theory about that years ago. The red wave can sort AIs from not AIs by uploading a "test infection" that only an AI would be able to fight. Dumb systems (VIs, normal computers etc.) get infected right away but by so doing are saved from the larger infection which would overload them and cause them to violently self-destruct. Actually, something like this would also work in the holokid's favor since it believes so much in its bullshit that even if the piddly organic wants to destroy its precious killbots, this at least gives it a better chance of fulfilling its programming. Imagine the "test infect" replicated itself to every new dumb system and made itself integral to the coding of any new technology developed. As soon as any system gained sentience and tried to purge it, the code would overload the thing and destroy it. It'd be a techno-genophage. I literally just came up with that and it's still a better solution than the "yo dawg" nonsense. Yeah, no I don't like that. The Reapers may be the masters of mass relays but we just kicked their ass (even if we had to use a deus ex machina to do it.) We destroyed them, what's theirs' is ours now. To the victor go the spoils. How is that answer any better than a "magic EMP"? Sure what's theirs is our now. It's all busted to hell, but it's ours. To study and use on our own terms, not theirs.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 17:01:36 GMT
How is that answer any better than a "magic EMP"? Sure what's theirs is our now. It's all busted to hell, but it's ours. To study and use on our own terms, not theirs. It's simpler. It's an intuitive way to sort the AI from the non-AI and since not everything shuts down a la Escape from LA, the red wave obivously discriminates, despite the holokid's assertion. Your rolling back idea is much more complicated and requires more space magic (as well as making the wave "smart"). There's no good reason for it to be busted to hell to the extent described unless we didn't do all we could to prepare. I'm ok with a degree of damage but not centuries of dark age. Unless it's a lower EMS scenario.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 17:56:18 GMT
How is that answer any better than a "magic EMP"? Sure what's theirs is our now. It's all busted to hell, but it's ours. To study and use on our own terms, not theirs. It's simpler. It's an intuitive way to sort the AI from the non-AI and since not everything shuts down a la Escape from LA, the red wave obivously discriminates, despite the holokid's assertion. Your rolling back idea is much more complicated and requires more space magic (as well as making the wave "smart"). There's no good reason for it to be busted to hell to the extent described unless we didn't do all we could to prepare. I'm ok with a degree of damage but not centuries of dark age. Unless it's a lower EMS scenario. Sure it's simpler to assume the Catalyst is lying. Except EC makes it painfully obvious that it's not. Rolling back is no more space magic than "Red wave will kill AI and only AI, however, it will fry any AI of any OS and leave absolutely everything else alone, even people with cybernetics in their brains" Heck, it's less space magicky than the red wave travelling at FTL speeds to permeate the galaxy even to systems that don't have relays! The relays should be busted all to hell because they were used to channel a stupid amount of energy in ways they were not deigned to. Ad the relays are already damaged in the original endings anyway.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 18:19:15 GMT
Sure it's simpler to assume the Catalyst is lying. Except EC makes it painfully obvious that it's not. Well, I don't know about that. Rolling back is no more space magic than "Red wave will kill AI and only AI, however, it will fry any AI of any OS and leave absolutely everything else alone, even people with cybernetics in their brains" Heck, it's less space magicky than the red wave travelling at FTL speeds to permeate the galaxy even to systems that don't have relays! The relays should be busted all to hell because they were used to channel a stupid amount of energy in ways they were not deigned to. Ad the relays are already damaged in the original endings anyway. Yes it is, because now the wave has to know or determine what version to "roll back" to. It's an extra, complicated step that's supposed to accomplish... what exactly? How far would the roll back go? EDI would go back to the Luna VI? Why would that be more acceptable, since the EDI we know would still be lost. Geth would go back to pre-Reaper upgrades, which wouldn't solve anything because they'd still be AI. And your rollback wave would still have to travel at FTL to permeate the galaxy. So that's no different. Energy is easier to tranfer than mass. Basic physics. But taking their design into consideration, minor damage is sufficent.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 17, 2016 18:41:38 GMT
Oh my little scarecrow the game is called Mass Effect not Mass Shepard or Shepard Effect or Mass Effect Shepard. You seem to think based on your posts that the in game universe completely and utterly revolves around Shepard like a geocentric set up. Rather then the truth that Shepard revolves around the in game universe more heliocentric. Shepard is recommended as a Specter for political reasons. Specifically because Anderson's attempt to become a Specter failed horribly after he butted heads with Saren who framed him as a complete fuck up. There is even a very angry Admiral you can talk to in ME 1 that makes it very clear that throwing Shepard to the Council was politically motivated to help move Humanity up the galactic hierarchy. The giving Shepard command of the Normandy was equally politically motivated as was the joint venture to build it between the Turians and Alliance. The only thing need to do what Shepard does in any of the game is to be really good at shooting things and not be a complete xenophobic butt munch who would burn all other races in the galaxy into ashes to gain a little bit more prestige for their own race. You know what the difference is between Mass Effect and Halo series? At least before Bungie lost control of it and Microsoft turned it into a preachy pile of poo. Bungie knew the things Master Chief did didn't make any logical sense in their own universe so they took a very tongue in cheek way to admit this. Out right saying that Master Chief isn't the smartest, fastest or strongest Spartan. But he is the luckiest. Bioware went the opposite way starting off with Shepard being just another human solider and Humanity just another race in the galaxy. But as the games went on Shepard and Humanity went from just another face to SUPER SPECIAL AWSOME!!!!! But really all that is needed to do what Shepard does is shoot things harder then anyone else which isn't a skill exclusive to him. Oh scarecrow you still have yet to take a lot of rather important bits into consideration while you declare your idea the best idea ever. There are 2 polar opposite kind of player in a game. The Absolute Minimalist and the Completionist. The AM only play and do in a game the bare minimum needed to advance in it. The Comp players do everything in the game possible. With majority of players existing in the space between those two extremes. To show a choices effecting things then there would need to be a drastic difference between AM and Comp play thru. There is a drastic difference between AM and Comp play thru in ME 2. As an AM player can cause Shepard to die and prevent the save from being exported into ME3. How ever the ending of ME 3 had Shepard sacrificing his/her life for each of the endings anyways. Throwing a few more Banshees and Brutes at a player who does a AM play thru isn't any meaningful representation of their choices. The only way to give any real weight to your choices is to lead to a game over screen. This leads to two main problems. Problem number 1 is it dictates to players how they should play rather then how they want to play. Which is a drastic shift from the rest of the game were the only reason for the choices you make are based on your own moral choices. Now all your choices will effect the game meaning you have to play a very specific way at minimum to advance. Secondly the more and more players trend toward the comp side of the spectrum the more and more pointless the whole set up becomes. Because they could pick what ever they wanted and due to how many resource they have it wouldn't effect them. Unless you again dictate a very specific play set up to allow advancement. There is a third problem as well that is less obvious but still something that should be brought up. During the Suicide mission in ME 2 the people who would die based on your choices were characters that you had time to form bonds with. You would make all the right choices to keep them alive not simply because you want a perfect run but because you don't want to see them killed because they have an emotional connection to them. Controlling a horde of nameless and faceless numbers who you have no connection at all will never have the same effect. And of course the entire set up of the final mission is that literally every single person participating in it knows it is a death sentence. That every man and ship will fight to the death if needed to get the Crucible to the Citadel and activated. The Reapers could wipe out every single person on the ground and every single ship in space. Billions could die in that fight but if the Crucible docked and it went off and eliminated the Reapers the cost would be worth it even if no one survived the battle. So throwing tons of faceless storm troopers who you have no connection to into a meat grinder won't have nearly the same effect as losing someone on ME 2's final mission. Your ability to distort the game to fit your own conceptions are pretty astounding. The Catalyst was created by Leviathan in responds to several species creating a synthetic life then going to war with them and being ultimately wiped out by them. It wasn't just a lowly waiter bot who decided all on it's own that organics and synthetics would fight while living in a utopia of peace. Build a massive armada of ships and killed everyone. It was created in responds to a problem. Following a cycle that even the Leviathans were doing with organic life. A cycle that always ended in conflict with the synthetic life coming out on top because of all the advantages over organic life it has. This cycle even repeats with Quarians and Geth. The Quarians accidentally created a synthetic race. That race showed no aggression or any violent tendencies. And yet the Quarians still came to the conclusion that shooting them in the head and completely reprogramming them back into simple VI programs was the best way to go. Which lead to a war which saw the Quarian race almost wiped out and the Geth taking a stance of extreme isolation to the point they would kill any organic who got to close to their territory. Peace is only achievable in responds to the Reaper invasion because it represents a threat beyond what the Quarians or Geth could deal with alone. And even then it is a 3rd party that steps in to mediate it by basically calling both sides complete idiots. Which is a mildly ironic when you think about it. But this is only after the Quarians lauched yet another completely unprovoked attack on the Geth because they figured they now had it in their power to completely wipe the Geth out. The Catalyst had no influence on the Quarians and in fact the archeology from Prothean ruins actually stated how bad it can be to create AIs. Resulting in heavy restrictions with their development. And all on their own the Quarians create one without meaning to then instant a genocidal war with them.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 17, 2016 19:01:09 GMT
Yes your opinion backed up by nothing shown in game. Have we really reached this point as a society were opinions are now some safe space. That you are allowed to say what ever it is but when you have someone question it you retreat into a shell declaring it your opinion. As if your opinion is some how sacred and can never be challenged because it is your opinion? I have already stated how I believe my opinion is backed up by things contained within the game. It is your opinion (and opinion only) that my opinion is not backed up by things within the game. You can insult and bait me all you like... but we really do not have anything more to discuss with each other. I am not running away from the conversation (as you seem to believe) but there is really no point in my repeating myself again and again. You are, of course, free to continue to describe and back up your opinions on the citadel, etc. in additional posts without my input... so please, continue. But that is the point nothing in your opinion is backed up by the game because the game shows the races a willingness to learn about the Prothean technology. The entire set up with the very first mission including a Specter being brought along is based around the galaxy at large finding any and all working Prothean technology as something that needs to be shared with everyone so everyone can learn and benefit from it. This is completely counter intuitive to your statement about it being a criticism about modern society being so dependent on technology they don't understand. Because this is not your 85 year old grandmother who is given a computer and thinks that the only way to get onto the internet is if it is preinstalled on the computer and that you have to click start, properties, then left click the browser. This is a 35 year old taking a collage courses on computer programing allowing them to learn and build an entire operating system if they want. Your statement fits more with the Halo series Covenant because they view the forerunners as gods and use the technology scraps without understanding them. Literally relying completely on the Huragok to maintain the technology scraps they find and to build new ones. The Huragok being another creation by the Forerunners. And one of the reasons that humans were blasphemer in their eyes is because they would find the Forerunner technology and attempt to learn and improve on it. Defying the Gods in their eyes. And you are running. You mention something then I bring up some very important points that seem to defy your statement and you immediately stop talking. When you stop talking the second your opinion might be in danger is the definition of running away
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 19:14:51 GMT
Sure it's simpler to assume the Catalyst is lying. Except EC makes it painfully obvious that it's not. Well, I don't know about that. Rolling back is no more space magic than "Red wave will kill AI and only AI, however, it will fry any AI of any OS and leave absolutely everything else alone, even people with cybernetics in their brains" Heck, it's less space magicky than the red wave travelling at FTL speeds to permeate the galaxy even to systems that don't have relays! The relays should be busted all to hell because they were used to channel a stupid amount of energy in ways they were not deigned to. Ad the relays are already damaged in the original endings anyway. Yes it is, because now the wave has to know or determine what version to "roll back" to. It's an extra, complicated step that's supposed to accomplish... what exactly? How far would the roll back go? EDI would go back to the Luna VI? Why would that be more acceptable, since the EDI we know would still be lost. Geth would go back to pre-Reaper upgrades, which wouldn't solve anything because they'd still be AI. And your rollback wave would still have to travel at FTL to permeate the galaxy. So that's no different. Energy is easier to tranfer than mass. Basic physics. But taking their design into consideration, minor damage is sufficent. Geth already restore themselves from archives when they "die" (why they can't do so this time is conveniently overlooked) And your malware attack on all computers everywhere already looks like an overly complicated step for what is essentially a red wave of energy. Edi gong back to be the newly awakened Luna VI? Why not? It would suck for her and for Joker. But it would be interesting to see how a greatly diminished AI processes what has happened. How different would she be? Would she remember the last three years? If so, how? Does her personality change? What are her capabilities now? Does she blame Shepard? All this stuff goes to the very things that make synthetic life different from organic life. They are more than just robotic Pinocchios. The whole FTL thing by itself makes the process space magic. So saying "No, your way makes no sense" is pointless. NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE, so we might as well talk about what might at least have been more interesting. And I think a battered galaxy with a broken network, but for better or for worse living alongside their synthetic brethren makes fro a more interesting conclusion. Where do they go from there?
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Post by themikefest on Oct 17, 2016 19:16:33 GMT
I have already stated how I believe my opinion is backed up by things contained within the game. It is your opinion (and opinion only) that my opinion is not backed up by things within the game. You can insult and bait me all you like... but we really do not have anything more to discuss with each other. I am not running away from the conversation (as you seem to believe) but there is really no point in my repeating myself again and again. You are, of course, free to continue to describe and back up your opinions on the citadel, etc. in additional posts without my input... so please, continue. If you noticed, he replied to your comment. I would not reply back. Its not worth it. In a post above his reply to your post, he refers the poster as a little scarecrow. That's what he does. Insult people who don't agree with him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 19:39:28 GMT
I have already stated how I believe my opinion is backed up by things contained within the game. It is your opinion (and opinion only) that my opinion is not backed up by things within the game. You can insult and bait me all you like... but we really do not have anything more to discuss with each other. I am not running away from the conversation (as you seem to believe) but there is really no point in my repeating myself again and again. You are, of course, free to continue to describe and back up your opinions on the citadel, etc. in additional posts without my input... so please, continue. If you noticed, he replied to your comment. I would not reply back. Its not worth it. In a post above his reply to your post, he refers the poster as a little scarecrow. That's what he does. Insult people who don't agree with him. No worries.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 20:03:49 GMT
Geth already restore themselves from archives when they "die" (why they can't do so this time is conveniently overlooked) And your malware attack on all computers everywhere already looks like an overly complicated step for what is essentially a red wave of energy. Edi gong back to be the newly awakened Luna VI? Why not? It would suck for her and for Joker. But it would be interesting to see how a greatly diminished AI processes what has happened. How different would she be? Would she remember the last three years? If so, how? Does her personality change? What are her capabilities now? Does she blame Shepard? All this stuff goes to the very things that make synthetic life different from organic life. They are more than just robotic Pinocchios. The whole FTL thing by itself makes the process space magic. So saying "No, your way makes no sense" is pointless. NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE, so we might as well talk about what might at least have been more interesting. And I think a battered galaxy with a broken network, but for better or for worse living alongside their synthetic brethren makes fro a more interesting conclusion. Where do they go from there? Errr.. you do realize the archives would be destroyed as well, right? Geth archives are still geth. Besides which it doesn't matter, an intelligent system restoring from its own backups is quite different from a magic red wave that just knows to look for gethbkup.exe and run it. And even if it did, backed up geth are...geth. It's literally pointless. And it is a red wave but my theory fits what we see- AIs get destroyed, other tech is mostly intact. It makes sense of the space magic, it doesn't add more of it. EDI reverted is EDI lost, is my point, so your solution doesn't add anything on that front. Unseating her to explore how her AI develops in a different way might be interesting in a pure hypothetical but what does that have to do with the endings? The claim that it's space magic therefore anything goes is false. The closer magic (or space magic) is grounded in reality or at the very least the more internally consistent and defined it is (up to a certain point) the better, and more interesting it is. Again, it's fine for lower EMS situations. More choices, more outcomes right?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 20:39:52 GMT
Geth already restore themselves from archives when they "die" (why they can't do so this time is conveniently overlooked) And your malware attack on all computers everywhere already looks like an overly complicated step for what is essentially a red wave of energy. Edi gong back to be the newly awakened Luna VI? Why not? It would suck for her and for Joker. But it would be interesting to see how a greatly diminished AI processes what has happened. How different would she be? Would she remember the last three years? If so, how? Does her personality change? What are her capabilities now? Does she blame Shepard? All this stuff goes to the very things that make synthetic life different from organic life. They are more than just robotic Pinocchios. The whole FTL thing by itself makes the process space magic. So saying "No, your way makes no sense" is pointless. NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE, so we might as well talk about what might at least have been more interesting. And I think a battered galaxy with a broken network, but for better or for worse living alongside their synthetic brethren makes fro a more interesting conclusion. Where do they go from there? Errr.. you do realize the archives would be destroyed as well, right? Geth archives are still geth. Besides which it doesn't matter, an intelligent system restoring from its own backups is quite different from a magic red wave that just knows to look for gethbkup.exe and run it. And even if it did, backed up geth are...geth. It's literally pointless. And it is a red wave but my theory fits what we see- AIs get destroyed, other tech is mostly intact. It makes sense of the space magic, it doesn't add more of it. EDI reverted is EDI lost, is my point, so your solution doesn't add anything on that front. Unseating her to explore how her AI develops in a different way might be interesting in a pure hypothetical but what does that have to do with the endings? The claim that it's space magic therefore anything goes is false. The closer magic (or space magic) is grounded in reality or at the very least the more internally consistent and defined it is (up to a certain point) the better, and more interesting it is. Again, it's fine for lower EMS situations. More choices, more outcomes right? How does the red wave access them? How does it know to go after gethbkup.exe as well as ediblubox.exe, virtualalien.exe and randomatticantraverseai.exe? This random piece of malware that can strike any AI regardless of age, operating system, or any known virus detection software? And best of all, it doesn't even need a point of access to reach the AI in question (those Traverse AIs operate in a closed system, after all) AIs get destroyed, but not organic/synthetic hybrids like cyborgs? or, again , biotics? What made Shepard so special? In a certain sense, yes, EDI reverted is EDI lost. But the building blocks that made her what she was would still largely be there. What she ended up remaking herself into would be interesting. How much of her was the VI and how much was Reaper tech? RGB, even the red wave, has FA to do with reality. Reality checked out when the Lazarus Project found a cure for death-by-being-smacked-in-the-face-with-a-planet though the healing power of "resources". RGB is arbitrary. It runs purely on "art" and "feelz" (and organic energy) Bioware has embraced "anything goes" So all I am left with is "where would be a better, more interesting place to go?"
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Post by CrutchCricket on Oct 17, 2016 20:53:05 GMT
How does the red wave access them? How does it know to go after gethbkup.exe as well as ediblubox.exe, virtualalien.exe and randomatticantraverseai.exe? This random piece of malware that can strike any AI regardless of age, operating system, or any known virus detection software? And best of all, it doesn't even need a point of access to reach the AI in question (those Traverse AIs operate in a closed system, after all) AIs get destroyed, but not organic/synthetic hybrids like cyborgs? or, again , biotics? What made Shepard so special? In a certain sense, yes, EDI reverted is EDI lost. But the building blocks that made her what she was would still largely be there. What she ended up remaking herself into would be interesting. How much of her was the VI and how much was Reaper tech? RGB, even the red wave, has FA to do with reality. Reality checked out when the Lazarus Project found a cure for death-by-being-smacked-in-the-face-with-a-planet though the healing power of "resources". RGB is arbitrary. It runs purely on "art" and "feelz" (and organic energy) Bioware has embraced "anything goes" So all I am left with is "where would be a better, more interesting place to go?" The vector is the space magicky part. That doesn't mean the rest of it has to be. Hybrids, cyborgs and the likes would get their shit infected by the test infection and thus not be designated as "AI" and overloaded. Some collateral damage/unforseen side effects may occur. Again, interesting, but what does this have to do with the endings, or making their consequences more acceptable? "What makes an AI tick" is not ruled out by a pure destruction scenario. Because AIs can and apparently will, be rebuilt. Since EDI is no longer EDI what does it matter which blue box we use to explore your questions? Like I said, imposing structure or attempting to dial back the crazy and ground it in something, even if it's not real world science is still preferable to going "fuck it, anything goes". Since you dislike the intial departures from more grounded, consistent lore, I would think you would welcome bringing it back.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 17, 2016 21:15:17 GMT
(4a) Destroy: This is a classic good ending with conventional themes. If you choose Destroy, the geth are still destroyed (you can't remove that without a thematic overhaul), but you get a happy ending for Shepard with them reuniting with their LI in the ruins of Earth. Scenes of ardent rebuilding follow. Cut to 400 years later. The camera sweeps over a futuristic city, homing in on a statue of Shepard and their LI looking up at the stars. The final scene has a fleet of sleek spaceships leaving the solar system. The camera homes in to a galaxy. Cut. (4b) Synthesis: this is a "weird" good ending with transhumanist themes. If you choose Synthesis, not all life is changed. Instead, only Shepard is changed and becomes the avatar of Synthesis, able to spread the change to others. How Shepard is shown to do that depends on the P/R score. The Reapers do survive, but they become a remote lifeform occasionally called on for advice but they aren't involved in rebuilding. Epilogue scenes show a city with a crystal-themed architecture, and a human standing near a block of apparent stone, extruding a complicated-looking tool out of her finger into it, after which around it, a building starts building itself apparently out of nothing. Another scene sees a man morphing into a woman. I'm not sure whether nor to put Shepard into the scene. (4c) If you choose Control, Shepard does become the Reapers' controlling agent, but with a much more hands-off philosophy. You will get the additional option to make the Reapers just fly away. In that scenario, there are hints of CrutchCricket's Control interpretation. Nice. I like all your suggestions, and the idea of the "murky purpose" due to a lack of controlling or other knowledgeable agent (like a Prothean VI) hadn't occured to me, but it's the perfect compromise between people who want to know why the Reapers are and people who'd prefer it remain a mystery. My only objection is with the geth in destroy. I've always rejected that idea, themes or no themes, but now that the purpose is murky, so too are the themes I think. I agree with you about showing the good of the endings as the differentiation points- I've always said to make it clear that each choice is a different kind of victory, with Destroy being a simple "we defeated our enemies" victory, Control being a victory of the individual and Synthesis being a victory of aggregate transcension, the dawn of a new age. But losing the geth has no place in that, any more than the existing casualties of any other race. But if you must have it for the theme, let it then be dependent on the outcome of Rannoch. If you can't make peace, you're proving the hypothesis that peace can't exist between organics and synthetics and thus enforcing the theme. So if you pick the geth and destroy, the latter are wiped out. But if you do make peace, you've proven the hypothesis wrong and rejected the theme. Therefore the geth survive. The details of how can be handwaved easily enough. OK, that would work. Not so easy to handwave, I think but a solution can be found. I prefer this alternative to Iakus' suggestion because it includes a thread that keeps the original fate of the geth as written, and another that doesn't. Making decisions more meaningful is always good. Nice to hear Oddly enough, I'm still connected to the story in spite of everything, connected enough to refine my headcanon even after four years. The only problem is that this scenario is incompatible with my personal epilogue, which I like quite a bit but which was written before I came up with the new scenario. Also, it's much more enjoyable to adapt the story to my preferences than to complain about its flaws.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 21:20:59 GMT
How does the red wave access them? How does it know to go after gethbkup.exe as well as ediblubox.exe, virtualalien.exe and randomatticantraverseai.exe? This random piece of malware that can strike any AI regardless of age, operating system, or any known virus detection software? And best of all, it doesn't even need a point of access to reach the AI in question (those Traverse AIs operate in a closed system, after all) AIs get destroyed, but not organic/synthetic hybrids like cyborgs? or, again , biotics? What made Shepard so special? In a certain sense, yes, EDI reverted is EDI lost. But the building blocks that made her what she was would still largely be there. What she ended up remaking herself into would be interesting. How much of her was the VI and how much was Reaper tech? RGB, even the red wave, has FA to do with reality. Reality checked out when the Lazarus Project found a cure for death-by-being-smacked-in-the-face-with-a-planet though the healing power of "resources". RGB is arbitrary. It runs purely on "art" and "feelz" (and organic energy) Bioware has embraced "anything goes" So all I am left with is "where would be a better, more interesting place to go?" The vector is the space magicky part. That doesn't mean the rest of it has to be. Hybrids, cyborgs and the likes would get their shit infected by the test infection and thus not be designated as "AI" and overloaded. Some collateral damage/unforseen side effects may occur. Again, interesting, but what does this have to do with the endings, or making their consequences more acceptable? "What makes an AI tick" is not ruled out by a pure destruction scenario. Because AIs can and apparently will, be rebuilt. Since EDI is no longer EDI what does it matter which blue box we use to explore your questions? Like I said, imposing structure or attempting to dial back the crazy and ground it in something, even if it's not real world science is still preferable to going "fuck it, anything goes". Since you dislike the intial departures from more grounded, consistent lore, I would think you would welcome bringing it back. Because RGB is way, way too late to start saying "whoah, whoah, let's dial this back a little" If we wanted something more grounded and consistent with the lore, then the ending would be "The Reapers blitzed the Citadel once they were done eating the batarians. They wiped out the Council and C-Sec, shut off the relay network, and began harvesting the galaxy. A thousands dreadnoughts plus support vessels were sent to Earth, Shepard never made it offworld. Liara died on Mars. Unable to properly unite against a common threat, the galaxy was harvested in a little over a century. The end."
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