Does anyone else always side with Meredith?

1) All of which was made possible through the use of magic, by people who all happened to be magical.

2) All of which might be entirely true, but changes nothing. We see good and decent and innocent people who would be harmless without magic cause enormous disasters in every single game, and see people who would be minor nuisances or tyrants without magic herald the end of the world at least once per. That isn't propaganda or stigma, that's the reality of what magic represents in Thedas for everyone who isn't a mage as a matter of simple fact.

3) "History has proven" no such thing. The two major slave-run civilizations we know of - neither of which had borders we know of because they spanned continents - were both magocracies. The Avaar, Chasind, Dalish and Rivaini only have free magic because their populations are small and decentralized enough that the number of mages born aren't unmanageable - and when that isn't the case mage children are canonically killed or left to die in the wilds for that exact reason.

4) The Evanuris held their entire race in a chokehold because nobody else could even touch their magical powers, and it didn't end until one of their god-kings betrayed the others. And when he did, it escalated into a cataclysm. Because of magic. The dwarves are cooped up in tiny holds and are tearing their own people apart to avoid overpopulation because darkspawn have nearly driven them to extinction and are currently hammering at their doors, because mages fucked around with aforementioned mage-created bioweapon. 

That is, when said darkspawn don't swell up unto the ground and do a Black Death on the rest of Thedas every few hundred years. Like they did just recently when Ferelden was almost consumed. Thanks, again, to mages. Not to mention those lovely Tevinter slavers and cultists infiltrating every population center in order to steal people or bleed politicians in order to control their minds or what have you.

For most of the story there's literally not a single major conflict going on in Thedas that isn't magic-related because everybody is too busy dealing with the trouble mages are causing to have the resources for it.

Human, or Elvhen, or Qunari nature being imperfect and prone to destructive behavior doesn't change the fact that that destructive behavior would be a whole lot less destructive if magic wasn't part of the picture, and funnily enough isn't when the mages are kept under lock and key so everyone else (you know, the other 99,99% of the world) can sleep safe.

The idea that magic "doesn't have ANYTHING to do with society's problems" is delusional. The first three games have spanned 15 or so years of Thedas' modern history, and two of them dealt entirely with quelling the near-world-ending magical disasters caused by careless mages. The third dealt with one mage deliberately starting a world war because a magical voice he had accepted into his head told him to.

5) Unlike other natural forces, however, power over magic just requires the will to use it and is impossible to take away from someone dangerous. Strip a normal psychopath or terrorist or hardened criminal naked, take away his gun or his torch or his high explosives, and the worst he can do is give you a bloody nose. Strip a mage naked and they could still do anything from turning into a demon to starting a zombie apocalypse, at will or by accident.

Magic might well be a natural force in Thedas, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that isn't the same as all the others. Gravity and wind are both natural forces, but you'll notice we're a bit more stringent about avoiding falling off high places or things landing on us than we are of papers getting scattered everywhere. Because one tends to be dangerous a lot more often than the other does. 

Frankly, Thedas will be lucky to make it for another thousand years without another apocalypse regardless of how they treat mages, because of mages. But at least the likelihood of one arriving early will be less if the mages are kept under control. 

And seriously, "eclipses"? You're just lying now. Would you rather your entire civilization were snuffed out in a flash than personally have to live in a house without windows? You'd rather see your villages' men eaten and women raped by demons than have to bear someone potentially having to kill you someday? Because those are the things that have happened "those few times a mage has cut loose from fear or evil intent". Which just so happens to be all the time, all over the world, if the games are anything to go by.



You're on a roll, man. You're using every argument I would and have over the years, and you're framing them a lot more concisely than I can usually force myself to.

This feels like taking a vacation. All the lifting you're doing here is very impressive. Welcome to the forum.

You write around images by clicking on the 'BBCode' button under the text field and writing additional text under the code that is your images. You can then go back to 'Preview' mode and continue writing if you feel like it. Took a while before I got annoyed enough to start using it too. Though I can see you're already breaking up comments to respond to points individually, which I can never be arsed to even using BBCode, so maybe you already figured it out.

I support the safety and protection of regular folk over people who can demolish an entire town with just the wave of their hands. Keep them locked up, or annul the Circle, if I have to. I have no issues whatsoever with annulling the Kirkwall Circle, especially by ACT 3.

Anders, Orsino, and pretty much every mage my Hawke met in Kirkwall proved that every fear the common folk have about mages is correct, and that mages need to be Circled up.

And: The Kirkwall Circle needed to go. So did Anders.

Look, Meredith was out of her mind, but she was right about Annulling the Kirkwall Circle - every mage in Kirkwall, Circle or not, needed to be put down. I tried to help mages, but every time I tried, they showed me more and more why they are too dangerous to be free. Meredith turned on Hawke, but that doesn't make her wrong about the Kirkwall mages and Orsino, who turned out to be just as crazy as Meredith - no, I take it back - Orsino was worse than Meredith because at least Meredith was out of her mind from the Red Lyrium. Orsino, who was of sound mind and body, helped a serial killer, and turned on my Hawke for no valid reason* whatsoever and I absolutely think Meredith was right about him, too.

* Yes, I know the writing reason, but sticking to what's actually in the game.

I have given it a great deal of thought. Mages prove time and time again they need to be Circled up, and I have no problem putting down the Kirkwall Circle of Magi.

Mhm... I'm not so sure.

Something definitely needed to be done about Kirkwall's circle, but trying to Annull it the way she did was objectively reckless. Waiting a day or two for things to cool down before making the decision - as the circle hadn't shown signs of being actively supporting Anders' actions - would have been more just, and might have allowed her to prepare for it and corral the mages to be more effectively subdued.

Of course, Orsino might have seen through that in a second and immediately started scheming to save his magebabies from the guillotine, and that might have caused even more trouble. Or the general populace might have stormed the Circle Tower to avenge their church, and that would have been a slaughter. Although the Templar order, experiencing a groundswell of public approval after the attack, could probably have kept the peace and prevented even that.

I dunno. I think it's more important for the Templars to be able to Annull a tower in case something like Uldred happens, than for a tower to necessarily be Annulled for any specific reason. And I feel like Meredith giving the orders the way she does and under those particular circumstances plays into how much opposition she ends up facing, including from various Hawkes, allowing the mages to escape and wreak havoc in a lot more playthroughs than they don't which is obviously the thing she most wanted to avoid.

She should have made more of an effort securing support and making sure she could do it effectively, and making it seem like a less impulsive decision to bystanders. Because it feels like the impulsive "off with their heads" nature of her actions are what offends people most.

And yup, Anders would have to go. Something like a public execution where he was given sole responsibility and punished for the attack might have calmed people down and mended a bit of the damage he did. Or maybe it would have whipped Kirkwall up into a bloodthirsty frenzy. But yeah. I've yet to play a Hawke who took pleasure in killing him, but they've all definitely felt that it had to be done.

Oh yes, thank you to support my arguments!

Bethany ended up as a Warden in my canon run, but when I am roleplaying a Templar supporting Hawke that has Bethany in the Circle, yes, she's cut down like the rest of the mages. I hate doing it, but I want to follow through with the role of that particular Hawke.

IMO, Anders' terrorism can never be justified.

Well, I disagree.

It's neutral towards internal conflicts in Andrastian nations which is what is important. If noble A wants to pick a fight with noble B and he goes to the Chantry to hire mage mercenaries, he'll be told he is crazy and to go away.

Quite right, well said.