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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 17, 2020 20:59:51 GMT
As Blood Magic does not rely on mana as a power source to fuel spells, this means that Templars cannot prevent them from casting. Seekers however could prevent blood mages from casting by using their ability to manipulate/ignite lyrium in the blood in order to paralyse/incapacitate them. Btw, considering this information (and it is very true and "just in time" notion, as Cass tells about it in DAI), there should have been at least one Seeker in a Circle to deal with such problemes or make inspection - something like that... as the Chantry's opinion "mages are evil, cursed blah-blah", why the Divine did not do something about that? As well as with fotmer Templars e.g...The Chantry topic is a different one, know that, but think it is an aweful institution, corrupted, ruined in every possible way, that can't handle many situations, that uses leashes for mages and templar, that doesn't help both groupes at all....can continue, just sick of it already and don't know where else to write about the Divine/chantry and everything connected with it. Ctreated a thread mayby? Anyway, back to the Seekers. If am not mistaken (correct me, svp, if I am), there were not many Circles, but at the same time as Cass tells us there are not many Seekers and what sounds strange about Seekers' behavior, that, as again Cass tells us, the Seeker arrives to the Circlle ONLY if something terrible happened. How does she say exactly? The Templars knew if a Seeker (one Seeker?) arrived to the Circle, wait for trouble (she said it in a different way, I just do not remember exact words - thus write only the meaning of her explanation of the Seekers' role). As I undersnand, in DAO there was not such a thing (Seekers I mean), because they were made up completely only in DAI? Or am I wrong? I just do not read bookd attached to the game. Thus the whole situation in the past before the war for me looks rather stupid, aka Divine is stupid as it is her hand, as well as the left one and the Divine "plays nations' fates"@, an important figure in DAU turns out, ven has a big hat: the Divine's right hand makes actions about a Circle only if there is something wrong, BUT as we see in DAO (Jowan and then a circle full of abominations)the Seekers could have done much more. Even Cass tells in the dialogue that the Seekers must have stepped in in DA2, BUT they did not because saw many cases of BM though at the same time saw that Meredith methods were really harsh. And Cass maybe had another opinion back there (considering her dialogue in DAI), but there is a Lord Seeker, and she just tells us that "something must have been done". To think of it in a whole, it would have been interesting to see the Seekers in DAO, preventing those aweful cases. These are just some thoughts about the topic and the given by Sifr information about the Seeker.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 17, 2020 21:24:42 GMT
I find it pretty interesting that Blight Magic also seems significantly weaker than the regular kind. Emmissaries can be dangerous, but most of them don't use any particularly advanced or impressive spells and even the most powerful ones don't seem to have access to what a really strong mage can put out. Imo, in all 3 games mages are OP. And that's an aweful thing, thus it is unfair to compare them in a way But still we do this. So...to compare our mage and an emmissary spells e.g. they indeed look weaker THOUGH at the same time they still have very nasty things and use pretty powerful spells (but just not many of them in comparison with our OP mages): - they are immunne to nature and use nature themselves; - rom what I can remember now about their spells they use "Crushing Prison" (very nasty), they use different curses including the one, where you can't heal (forgot the name), but do not remember them using primal tree spells...maybe I am wrong; - they use healing spells and some runes to help themselves. Thus, in general, if forget (somehow) that our mages are OP cauze know ALL spell trees, I would still call Emmissaries rather powerful mages. They seem weaker only, imo, because our mages are OP and we can choose ANY spell from ANY tree.
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
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Noxluxe
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 17, 2020 21:48:21 GMT
Imo, in all 3 games mages are OP. And that's an aweful thing, thus it is unfair to compare them in a way But still we do this. So...to compare our mage and an emmissary spells e.g. they indeed look weaker THOUGH at the same time they still have very nasty things and use pretty powerful spells (but just not many of them in comparison with our OP mages): - they are immunne to nature and use nature themselves; - rom what I can remember now about their spells they use "Crushing Prison" (very nasty), they use different curses including the one, where you can't heal (forgot the name), but do not remember them using primal tree spells...maybe I am wrong; - they use healing spells and some runes to help themselves. Thus, in general, if forget (somehow) that our mages are OP cauze know ALL spell trees, I would still call Emmissaries rather powerful mages. They seem weaker only, imo, because our mages are OP and we can choose ANY spell from ANY tree. As I said, Emissaries can be dangerous. But you murder at least a dozen over the course of the first game and odds are that you're going to be hit with exactly one Crushing Prison and maybe one Curse of Mortality per playthrough, both spells that mage PCs can have access to straight out of Lothering. Almost every one of the human or elven mage enemies are tougher fights than most of the Darkspawn Emmisaries in the game. If mages are consistently "OP" in all 3 games then I don't see what you think the problem is. That just means that they're very powerful in the Dragon Age setting. Which the lore of the games absolutely supports. Except for Emissaries. Who are barely ever mentioned.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 17, 2020 22:07:29 GMT
If mages are consistently "OP" in all 3 games then I don't see what you think the problem is. That just means that they're very powerful in the Dragon Age setting. Which the lore of the games absolutely supports. Yep, I understand what "OP" means. And wrote about that aspect of the game (hope it was not rude. Already afraid to write something, people will brand you already in a minute even if they were wrong and just misunderstood something w/o asking more info , had such cases already and try my best to be polite). Anyway. I see the probleme in this: OP characters spoil the balance of the game. And I see mages in DAU OP, thus - they just misbalance the game. Simple.
That what I was talking about and that is my probleme.
And it is one of the reasons why I don't like to play mages (not the first one, but still it is a probleme for me). About the rest I agree of course, PTs proved it many times. But mechanicts in terms of our mages is not balanced. Of course IMO P.S. Am I the only one who thinks that mages in DAU are OP? Just interesting.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 18, 2020 1:37:09 GMT
Yep, I understand what "OP" means. And wrote about that aspect of the game (hope it was not rude. Already afraid to write something, people will brand you already in a minute even if they were wrong and just misunderstood something w/o asking more info , had such cases already and try my best to be polite). Anyway. I see the probleme in this: OP characters spoil the balance of the game. And I see mages in DAU OP, thus - they just misbalance the game. Simple. That what I was talking about and that is my probleme.
And it is one of the reasons why I don't like to play mages (not the first one, but still it is a probleme for me). About the rest I agree of course, PTs proved it many times. But mechanicts in terms of our mages is not balanced. Of 'course IMO P.S. Am I the only one who thinks that mages in DAU are OP? Just interesting. It's good to think about what you're writing and try to be cautious and show respect for other users, but there's no reason to be outright afraid of failing to do so. The very worst you can possibly do here is bruise the ego of someone who hasn't learned not to take online arguments to heart yet. Which is frankly doing them a favor. People trying to brand or label you based on conversations about video games are just being silly, and most everyone else reading the discussion will see that too. What exactly do you mean? Do you find the games too easy to enjoy when playing a mage, even at max difficulty? Because I think you'll find some disagreement on the subject of whether or not something can be truly "OP" in a game that isn't competitive and has a difficulty slider. The only people your character is competing with are the other characters you could have chosen to play instead. You're not overshadowing or cheating anyone else by being that bit more powerful. Personally I never thought of mages as overpowered, but I think like most people I play the games for the roleplaying rather than for the gameplay, and always felt that Warrior and Rogue suited me better and offered more grounded and flexible character arcs. Yes, the journey to defeat the Blight or bring down Corypheus is (arguably) more difficult when playing someone without access to magic, but... isn't that exactly how it should be? Things are generally less problematic when you can bend time and space. Well, okay, no they're not, but not because magic doesn't help you accomplish specific tasks. Or do you mean that mage PCs are too powerful in terms of the story and setting? That a mage Warden or Inquisitor is so powerful that the story loses tension or doesn't make as much sense as with one of the martial classes? Theoretically, As for mages in general in Dragon Age, nah, I like them as they are. They're powerful enough for a normal person to have to be very, very careful trying to fight them, but not so powerful that a well-trained and prepared muggle doesn't have a chance to put them down.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 10:40:49 GMT
It's good to think about what you're writing and try to be cautious and show respect for other users, but there's no reason to be outright afraid of failing to do so. The very worst you can possibly do here is bruise the ego of someone who hasn't learned not to take online arguments to heart yet. Which is frankly doing them a favor. People trying to brand or label you based on conversations about video games are just being silly, and most everyone else reading the discussion will see that too. Yeah, thanks. Too bad not everyone understands the lesson. Or understands too late. Way of life. But there is a downside (for me incl)in such cases: with my profession, which I love as hell and which is in my blood, I tend to have certain traits if write in short, so even if a person is wrong (does not matter the subject of conversation), I still want to clear the situaltion, otherwise even other people could have wrong ideas, harmful emotions and feelings, which can have a very bad influence, which (what is one of the worst parts) may have results even in several years. I am not saying I "want to save the galaxy", but sometimes it is just..idk..a feeling, that something is not right. Other don't give a fuck about a person (does not matter it is a forum where people mostly do not care about each other and won't even notice if someone is gone because he/she is dead already as had a terrible illness - who cares about these things at all in our faceless world?), but something must be done. Hope the thought is clear even if not shared by many people according to my life experience. Way of life again? Dangerous times we live in; even more dangerous than our ancestors, if you know what I mean. But distraction. Back to the task. first of all, this phrase is forgotten as there is nothing truely OP in all 3 games. There are only truly OP builds + party combinations according to my PTs, and that is a rare thing to meet anyway. Or do you mean that mage PCs are too powerful in terms of the story and setting? oh, no. No at all even. For every mage there is always an assassin. The game tries to show otherwise, tries to cause sympathy for them, but not all buy it. Do you find the games too easy to enjoy when playing a mage, even at max difficulty? Yes. But I think I have to clarify some mooments about the game as a whole. I say "yes", but I am talking about a normal game, as we all know there could be bugs because of which you see spams of abilities from enemies (like DA2 e.g.)/no loot even from a bunch of enemies - I need money, missions don't pay themselves/you just can't win a battle because of...whatever is going on with a game (I had/have such problemes sometimes and fix them with relaunching the game - helps). Plus the very beginning of the game is usually more difficult. So such things are put aside for further thoughts. So in general I do find mages OP beacause of things I have already mentioned in my last post = I don't like the idea to know spell fromm all spell school + specs. A find exactly this "OP". If you are restricted to 2 schools e.g. and choose them in the beginning of the game, like when you choose your Origin, that, imo, would have been fair. Or, if people like "all-school-spells-idea", at least think of some idea WHY and HOW the hell your character became so OP? And make it a VERY difficult thing to get. Or nerf the spells and their combination. Also as a way out for me. There are other ideas in my head now about how and what to do, but it is for another topic I think. I know and understand that I am not forced to choose all those spells, but that's not I am talking about. In general you, as a player, are able to do it anyway. And I don't feel it right. It just game-breaking. Even if I play a mage (just now that is a rare thing, not mage-type person), I now already (as played the game many times and tried different things)tend to use e.g. 1-2 schools + specs = that is fair for me. I think like most people I play the games for the roleplaying rather than for the gameplay I did not know that players are more interested in RP (yeah, it is not Doom or Dead Space, but still, what a combat systeme for?). I've always thought is it an even combination of both actually. Learn something new almost every day. Personally I never thought of mages as overpowered As for mages in general in Dragon Age, nah, I like them as they are. thank you for answering my last question.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 18, 2020 11:50:58 GMT
So in general I do find mages OP beacause of things I have already mentioned in my last post = I don't like the idea to know spell fromm all spell school + specs. A find exactly this "OP". If you are restricted to 2 schools e.g. and choose them in the beginning of the game, like when you choose your Origin, that, imo, would have been fair. Or, if people like "all-school-spells-idea", at least think of some idea WHY and HOW the hell your character became so OP? And make it a VERY difficult thing to get. Or nerf the spells and their combination. Also as a way out for me. There are other ideas in my head now about how and what to do, but it is for another topic I think. I know and understand that I am not forced to choose all those spells, but that's not I am talking about. In general you, as a player, are able to do it anyway. And I don't feel it right. It just game-breaking. Even if I play a mage (just now that is a rare thing, not mage-type person), I now already (as played the game many times and tried different things)tend to use e.g. 1-2 schools + specs = that is fair for me. That sounds mostly like a roleplaying concern, to be honest. And I agree, it strengthens the PC, and the party mages too, to stick mostly to their preferred schools of magic + their specialization tree. Entropy and Primal for Morrigan, maybe, and Creation and Spirit for Wynne. But that said, if you were a mage trained in a Circle tower hoping to someday get out there and get to use your abilities, you wouldn't want to be a one-trick-pony. Being specialized is important, but versatility is too. Knowing at least the most useful basics in one or two other schools is very logical for rounding out your capabilities, and mages with sense would know that when selecting their courses. Or however their education actually works in the Circles. If I was running them, I'd certainly make the Heal spell mandatory learning for everybody. A good soldier might spend the vast majority of his total combat experience handling a sub-machine gun or assault rifle, and has trained accordingly, but he's also no slouch with the semi-automatic on his belt there in case he loses or empties his main weapon, in addition to being trained in first aid in case he has to treat his own or his comrades' wounds. A highly qualified one is also trained to defend himself with a knife if that fails or if guns aren't what's called for in the situation, in addition to general survival and utility skills related to the terrain he's going to be employed in. Electronics for dealing with communication equipment or explosives, mathematics for targeting and aiming across vast distance accounting for angles, wind and air resistance, vehicle use and maintenance, basic construction for building camps and digging wells... There's really no limit to how many skills you can add to your resume over the course of your career that just make you more useful at what you're doing. Soldier, engineer, technician, history teacher, babysitter, doesn't matter, you'll always want to broaden and expand your knowledge and skillset as well as deepen them. I don't see why magic would be any different. If anything, I'd say that the game doesn't do enough to reward Warriors and Rogues mechanically for branching out a little bit and picking up proficiency in fighting styles and tactics other than their preferred. And a truly jack-of-all-trades mage with spells all over the place but no specific area of expertise can be an interesting character concept too. Jowan would be an example of such a mage. Pathetic and indecisive in some sense, but also with a wide spectrum of different abilities to call on.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 13:43:34 GMT
A good soldier might spend the vast majority of his total combat experience handling a sub-machine gun or assault rifle, and has trained accordingly, but he's also no slouch with the semi-automatic on his belt there in case he loses or empties his main weapon, in addition to being trained in first aid in case he has to treat his own or his comrades' wounds. A highly qualified one is also trained to defend himself with a knife if that fails or if guns aren't what's called for in the situation, in addition to general survival and utility skills related to the terrain he's going to be employed in. Electronics for dealing with communication equipment or explosives, mathematics for targeting and aiming across vast distance accounting for angles, wind and air resistance, vehicle use and maintenance, basic construction for building camps and digging wells. a good comparison you have given. It is all true, do not even argue. Be ready to deal with every situation, even if you know only basics, is "a must be" for a soldier. I see your point and connection with "OP mage-topic". Will write something later. you'll always want to broaden and expand your knowledge and skillset as well as deepen them. yes. But how much time do you need to become good at something? You expand your knowledge and skills not in a moment, you need time to understand how exactly it works. Time. And to be good at something you need ptactice all day long. Our beloved bands with guitars? How much time do they spend to master it? Even 1 hour per day is not enough. Before really master it, you spend all day long. This "guitar" example is given as is suits best for a mage comparison. It is the same thing (rememeber Wynne or Viv words?). You just HAVE to practice all day long and if you just pronouce one word incorrectly, you are screwed. So, we start to play as a mage in the circle. We start with some spells. While gethering a cannon fodder we expand our skills by learning new spells. BUT here is the thing: we need to practice them again and again, we need much time to master them. And what is the result according to the game? We are busy all the time solving "Spectre" problemes, we gether an army, we talk to compaions, solve their problemes, some try to lure others to the tent and think what to say, we solve problemes just all the time. Not to mention constant battles. So when exactly do we practice those new spells? We don't have time to master them properly. That looks strange to say the least. We don't have time to learn properly (as a soldier, a teacher, an engineer), but we still throw fireballs everywhere as if you have been practicing those spell for the whole life and now our GW is 90 yo. How can that be? And that seems OP mage for me. It is one thing for OP mage that breaks the game. Another thing is very simple and I think it is my fault as I did not explain it properly: the spells are simply very powerful. Simple as that. They are OVERpoweful and imo have to be nerfed. That thing breaks the game as well. If give some comparison to show what I mean: A Sniper never misses. Never-ever. Even in the situations when the target is not in the best position, the target is half-visible etc., but the Sniper still does his job - he NEVER misses even in those hopleless for other people situations. How often does it happen with a OP Sniper? Does he always do his job or not? As Snipers can miss. But OP Sniper "get things done" all the time.How can that be in really hopeless situations? The same with mage. How can GW mage use those spell just like that? Hope my thought about "simply OP spells" is clear. If need be, will exlain in another way, will give other examples and comparisons. Just say it. I don't argue that a mage/warrior/rogue should branch out, they just have to, to survive at leats, but the way it is shown in the game - it is not logcal for a mage at all (I explained why). And a truly jack-of-all-trades mage with spells all over the place but no specific area of expertise can be an interesting character concept too. as one of tests - yes. And interesting as well: I always like make tests and check things out. As a PC in the game - that mage must be really powerful, and here is again, it is not lore - friendly to be truly jack-of-all-trades mage (again, I explained why). Jowan would be an example of such a mage. Pathetic and indecisive in some sense, but also with a wide spectrum of different abilities to call on. Hmm. I would be so sure about that. Used BM agains Templars who can't do anything as it is not lyrium-connected? Good for him. But exactly because of his traits as you described "pathetic and indecisive" he'll be dead very soon. Plus that bugged quest with him shows that he learnt new spells, but one of the outcomes - if you do nothing: Jowan and all those people simply die, thus his "pathetic and indecisive" traits played their role in that case as well.
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Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 18, 2020 14:22:33 GMT
Jowan is an example of good blood mages. He didn't even kill those templars just pushed them back. He used blood magic for what it was for, and for what reason my mages studied that : against the Templars. Besides that's interesting like the other trees, ofc.
If you let him run. He appears again, as he helps the refugees.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
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Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 18, 2020 14:35:45 GMT
yes. But how much time do you need to become good at something? You expand your knowledge and skills not in a moment, you need time to understand how exactly it works. Time. And to be good at something you need ptactice all day long. Our beloved bands with guitars? How much time do they spend to master it? Even 1 hour per day is not enough. Before really master it, you spend all day long. This "guitar" example is given as is suits best for a mage comparison. It is the same thing (rememeber Wynne or Viv words?). You just HAVE to practice all day long and if you just pronouce one word incorrectly, you are screwed. So, we start to play as a mage in the circle. We start with some spells. While gethering a cannon fodder we expand our skills by learning new spells. BUT here is the thing: we need to practice them again and again, we need much time to master them. And what is the result according to the game? We are busy all the time solving "Spectre" problemes, we gether an army, we talk to compaions, solve their problemes, some try to lure others to the tent and think what to say, we solve problemes just all the time. Not to mention constant battles. So when exactly do we practice those new spells? We don't have time to master them properly. That looks strange to say the least. We don't have time to learn properly (as a soldier, a teacher, an engineer), but we still throw fireballs everywhere as if you have been practicing those spell for the whole life and now our GW is 90 yo. How can that be? And that seems OP mage for me. It is one thing for OP mage that breaks the game. Another thing is very simple and I think it is my fault as I did not explain it properly: the spells are simply very powerful. Simple as that. They are OVERpoweful and imo have to be nerfed. That thing breaks the game as well. If give some comparison to show what I mean: A Sniper never misses. Never-ever. Even in the situations when the target is not in the best position, the target is half-visible etc., but the Sniper still does his job - he NEVER misses even in those hopleless for other people situations. How often does it happen with a OP Sniper? Does he always do his job or not? As Snipers can miss. But OP Sniper "get things done" all the time.How can that be in really hopeless situations? The same with mage. How can GW mage use those spell just like that? Hope my thought about "simply OP spells" is clear. If need be, will exlain in another way, will give other examples and comparisons. Just say it. I don't argue that a mage/warrior/rogue should branch out, they just have to, to survive at leats, but the way it is shown in the game - it is not logcal for a mage at all (I explained why). As a PC in the game - that mage must be really powerful, and here is again, it is not lore - friendly to be truly jack-of-all-trades mage (again, I explained why). Hmm. I would be so sure about that. Used BM agains Templars who can't do anything as it is not lyrium-connected? Good for him. But exactly because of his traits as you described "pathetic and indecisive" he'll be dead very soon. Plus that bugged quest with him shows that he learnt new spells, but one of the outcomes - if you do nothing: Jowan and all those people simply die, thus his "pathetic and indecisive" traits played their role in that case as well. That's an exaggeration. You can learn a LOT of basic but practical skills studying or practicing just a few hours a day for a week or less. To be truly exceptionally great at something takes consistent practice for years, yes, but a mage PC has also spent their entire life honing their magic and learning magical theory, and very little else. You could argue that finally getting to cast spells and see their effects in the field is the valuable experience they needed to advance their spell-casting for real. Or that they spend nights around the campfire comparing notes with and learning from Morrigan and Wynne or whoever else is in the party, adapting their insights to their own magic. Morrigan in particular has had expert training very different from a circle mage, and there'd be a lot of things to learn from her that the Chantry-approved curriculum would never have touched on. Certainly none of the Dragon Age protagonists are outright prodigies in my mind. They're just competent people with strong foundations in their fields who are open to learning, applying their experience in battle and receiving tutoring from more skilled party members. And what truly sets them apart is their determination, understanding and leadership qualities. I don't remember anything from any of the games that would explicitly require the PC to be genius in their trade to feel plausible. If what you object to is the quickly growing power of the mage then that's the case for every class. A level 2 Cousland warrior isn't that much stronger than Howe's individual grunts. By level 20, about a year later, those same grunts would have more luck hammering their swords against a castle wall. A level 1 Alienage elf rogue is risking their neck challenging armed and armored city guards. By level 20 they could ninja their way through an army without trouble. It's always a bit implausible how suddenly PCs start becoming more powerful as soon as they begin adventuring, but it's just a way to keep the player feeling engaged. You're not supposed to think too hard about it. And stories about people with weak and unconventional combinations of skills having to think and practice and learn valuable personal lessons to find useful ways to apply them and keep up with more obviously impressive experts are pretty classic. Jowan was originally supposed to be a potential party member, by way of the Right of Conscription. You're dismissing him a bit too readily.
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1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 14:39:12 GMT
owan is an example of good blood mages. He didn't even kill those templars just pushed them back. not the point here as Jowan was given in concern of another topic. But anyway, this is about mages, yes? Maybe Jowan did not kill them because: - he thought he was not so powerful so it was better to run away; - there was indeed some good in him: he was not a killer; - he just wanted to show off before his beloved that he was a good person; - he......some other reason. We do not know "why". Maybe he did wanted to kill them, but there were reasons for him to run away. Exapmle "He didn't even kill those templars just pushed them back" does not mean that Jowan was a good BM for above reasons. To undrstand whether a BM is a good or bad one we need much more exapmles of his behavior (Uldred is a good example e.g. to understand that he is a bad one).
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Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
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December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 14:59:15 GMT
That's an exaggeration. You can learn a LOT of basic but practical skills studying or practicing just a few hours a day for a week or less. To be truly exceptionally great at something takes consistent practice for years, yes, but a mage PC has also spent their entire life honing their magic and learning magical theory, and very little else. exaggeration? I think not. Again, Wynne, an experienced mage: "one wrong pronounced word and it is over". Magic is different and dangerous. I do not think you will argue with that. Or do you? Comparison with warrior/rogue is not the greatest example. Yes, you still need practice your melee/ranged skills but again, magic is more dangerous, thus you need to be more careful. When to be careful in the game with all those problemes? No time for practice and proper study. Be as it is and use as it is. Fuck the consequences. To the original point: it is the probleme and not lore-friendly PC mage. OP mage because of nothing. Devs decided it. Jowan was originally supposed to be a potential party member, by way of the Right of Conscription. You're dismissing him a bit too readily. I know that. I am dismissing him as saw how he screwed in that bugged quest. He died as well as those people.
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18,242
Catilina
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August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 18, 2020 15:01:25 GMT
owan is an example of good blood mages. He didn't even kill those templars just pushed them back. not the point here as Jowan was given in concern of another topic. But anyway, this is about mages, yes? Maybe Jowan did not kill them because: - he thought he was not so powerful so it was better to run away; - there was indeed some good in him: he was not a killer; - he just wanted to show off before his beloved that he was a good person; - he......some other reason. We do not know "why". Maybe he did wanted to kill them, but there were reasons for him to run away. Exapmle "He didn't even kill those templars just pushed them back" does not mean that Jowan was a good BM for above reasons. To undrstand whether a BM is a good or bad one we need much more exapmles of his behavior (Uldred is a good example e.g. to understand that he is a bad one). Yes, there are some reasons, why he didn't kill them, but we know more about him, as I wrote: He wants to fix the mess he caused and to redeem himself. He asks the warden, let him help. And he does. Even with blood magic, even if the Circle involved. And if the warden rather let him go, he will help the refugees. There are always problems with magic. But the low-ranked, slave mages in Tevinter, without high education, can live with their magic – if they wouldn't able, Tevinter would be a tearful, black note in the diary of the Maker.
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 15:07:54 GMT
He wants to fix the mess he caused and to redeem himself. He asks the warden, let him help. And he does. Even with blood magic, even if the Circle involved. And if the warden rather let him go, he will help the refugees. maybe it has nothing to do with BM. Maybe he is just afraid and nothing more. Offers help and help people in hope other will show him mercy. Of cource it is a theory, but I write again: I would like to know Jowan's fate if you let him go: still helping? abomination, killed by a wolf, templars killed him? I wish devs told us about him. A shame for them.
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 15:16:13 GMT
Noxluxe, I have a serious question for you. We started with discussion about OP mages. True? True. And all of a sudden we discuss Soldiers, AR, SR, Jowan is inbetween. How does it come down to those things if the point was "Why do you think OP magic is present in the game?" Kinda distraction from us, no?
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Apr 26, 2024 17:34:38 GMT
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 18, 2020 15:17:37 GMT
He wants to fix the mess he caused and to redeem himself. He asks the warden, let him help. And he does. Even with blood magic, even if the Circle involved. And if the warden rather let him go, he will help the refugees. maybe it has nothing to do with BM. Maybe he is just afraid and nothing more. Offers help and help people in hope other will show him mercy. Of cource it is a theory, but I write again: I would like to know Jowan's fate if you let him go: still helping? abomination, killed by a wolf, templars killed him? I wish devs told us about him. A shame for them. We don't know so much about the origin-companions, relatives. Sadly, ofc. Especially Jowan to me, but just because of my favourite origin is the Circle mage, and also it would be interesting to see what happened to him.
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 15:20:51 GMT
it would be interesting to see what happened to him moreovr, Jowan played a part in the plot quest, but devs still just...removed him. Really bad. We know about Tamlen/Soris/Roland/Gorim/Leske. But Jowan? Nope. That's just unfair.
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August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 18, 2020 15:26:10 GMT
it would be interesting to see what happened to him moreovr, Jowan played a part in the plot quest, but devs still just...removed him. Really bad. We know about Tamlen/Soris/Roland/Gorim/Leske. But Jowan? Nope. That's just unfair. There are a quest if the Warden let him go, about he helps the refugees. The Warden can stop him, but also to let him to continue his chosen path. What happens after – we don't know, also the quest bugged, and never fixed... Also: we just can think about what happen, if the Warden accepts his help in Redcliff, and the Circle Mages bring him back... Tranquility? Execution? Solitari Confinement? Or forgiveness?
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0
Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
Sonya
1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 16:14:54 GMT
Also: we just can think about what happen, if the Warden accepts his help in Redcliff, and the Circle Mages bring him back... Tranquility? Execution? Solitari Confinement? Or forgiveness? ah, yeah. I "like" that part. Eamon "GW, what do you think we should do with Jowan?" GW" :Let him go" Eamon "No, he will be executed" Than why the fuck did you ask my opinion at all, SofB?! And gives me a shiled as a present while you see a bigass sword behind my back? I suspect some of those dialogues are connected with original plan to conscript Jowan, but devs just left those lines and thus they sound stupid. And because of that some characters look like idiots. There are a quest if the Warden let him go, about he helps the refugees. The Warden can stop him, but also to let him to continue his chosen path. What happens after – we don't know, also the quest bugged, and never fixed... there is a quest (I used console IIRC) where Jowan helps people to fight corrupted bears or wolves,. And if you don't help or use your own spells, he'll jut die. That is just stupid. No wonder that scene was cut.
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Catilina
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August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 18, 2020 16:17:55 GMT
Also: we just can think about what happen, if the Warden accepts his help in Redcliff, and the Circle Mages bring him back... Tranquility? Execution? Solitari Confinement? Or forgiveness? ah, yeah. I "like" that part. Eamon "GW, what do you think we should do with Jowan?" GW" :Let him go" Eamon "No, he will be executed" Than why the fuck did you ask my opinion at all, SofB?! And gives me a shiled as a present while you see a bigass sword behind my back? I suspect some of those dialogues are connected with original plan to conscript Jowan, but devs just left those lines and thus they sound stupid. And because of that some characters look like idiots. There are a quest if the Warden let him go, about he helps the refugees. The Warden can stop him, but also to let him to continue his chosen path. What happens after – we don't know, also the quest bugged, and never fixed... there is a quest (I used console IIRC) where Jowan helps people to fight corrupted bears or wolves,. And if you don't help or use your own spells, he'll jut die. That is just stupid. No wonder that scene was cut. They didn't cut that quest, still exists, just bugged.
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Jan 25, 2020 19:06:39 GMT
1,712
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1,332
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 16:23:34 GMT
They didn't cut that quest, still exists, just bugged. Yeah? OK. Still, as for me such "bugged" quests mean "cut" as they don't show up w/o fix mods. But these are just details anyway. Have to work with what we have. And even if there are bugs in the game, I still like it to the death and like to play with what devs give in the game. It is still a great exapmle how a game must be made imo.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
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0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 18, 2020 17:08:12 GMT
Noxluxe , I have a serious question for you. We started with discussion about OP mages. True? True. And all of a sudden we discuss Soldiers, AR, SR, Jowan is inbetween. How does it come down to those things if the point was "Why do you think OP magic is present in the game?" Kinda distraction from us, no? Not really. You posited that it's implausible and unbalanced for mages to have various spells with different purposes and for them to learn even more powerful spells relatively quickly over the course of the game, as the basis for why you think they're overpowered. I've pointed out that having a versatile skillset is important for any kind of occupation, magic included, and that there are both clear game design reasons and plausible explanations for PC mages' gradual rise in power. Your character has real reason and opportunity to want to learn spells outside their specialized field, and testing your abilities out in new environments and against new challenges while comparing them with people who do things differently has always been the best way to improve. You've also posited that a mage with spells in every school and no top tier hard hitters is a useless protagonist. Again I've disagreed, it's actually quite common for protagonists to be jacks-of-all-trades who through ingenuity and personal strength and finding their own unique way of doing things make themselves relevant in spite of their apparent mediocrity. Jowan is a really popular character who illustrates this to some extent in Dragon Age: Origins. I've absolutely played mages in all three games who weren't very powerful or specialized and left the brunt of the work to the expert mage NPCs, contributing instead with various mediocre but still effective spells for damage and crowd control and whatever seemed useful at the time. The hero having to rely a lot on his cast of awesome and colorful friends and allies still makes for a great story. If gameplay as a mage is too easy for you to enjoy on the highest difficulties then sure, mages are overpowered for you. But blaming it on mages having the option to be versatile and getting stronger over the course of the games doesn't check out from where I'm sitting.
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jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 17:28:49 GMT
Not really. You posited that it's implausible and unbalanced for mages to have various spells with different purposes and for them to learn even more powerful spells relatively quickly over the course of the game, as the basis for why you think they're overpowered. I've pointed out that having a versatile skillset is important for any kind of occupation, magic included, and that there are both clear game design reasons and plausible explanations for PC mages' gradual rise in power. Your character has real reason and opportunity to want to learn spells outside their specialized field, and testing your abilities out in new environments and against new challenges while comparing them with people who do things differently has always been the best way to improve. You've also posited that a mage with spells in every school and no top tier hard hitters is a useless protagonist. Again I've disagreed, it's actually quite common for protagonists to be jacks-of-all-trades who through ingenuity and personal strength and finding their own unique way of doing things make themselves relevant in spite of their apparent mediocrity. Jowan is a really popular character who illustrates this to some extent in Dragon Age: Origins. I've absolutely played mages in all three games who weren't very powerful or specialized and left the brunt of the work to the expert mage NPCs, contributing instead with various mediocre but still effective spells for damage and crowd control and whatever seemed useful at the time. The hero having to rely a lot on his cast of awesome and colorful friends and allies still makes for a great story. If gameplay as a mage is too easy for you to enjoy on the highest difficulties then sure, mages are overpowered for you. But blaming it on mages having the option to be versatile and getting stronger over the course of the games doesn't check out from where I'm sitting. Hope you were not tired to recite several posts. The outcome of the discussion is what? You don't agree with me - yes. You don't understand my points and my explanations - yes or no? I undrstand your position - yes. You give hell of comparisons with AR and murder-knives - yes. You played mages using different builds - yes. I did the same. But you still did not undeerstand what I was talking about - I have THAT impression. Considering te original point with "OP mages". If gameplay as a mage is too easy for you to enjoy on the highest difficulties then sure, mages are overpowered for you. But blaming it on mages having the option to be versatile and getting stronger over the course of the games doesn't check out from where I'm sitting. What the hell are you talking about? Blaming?! I don't blame mages. Let them develop as they want. I have a feeling people don't understand what I mean. Frustrating. But not new to me.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
inherit
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0
Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
3,492
Noxluxe
1,979
Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
July 2018
noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jan 18, 2020 19:33:19 GMT
The outcome of the discussion is what? You don't agree with me - yes. You don't understand my points and my explanations - yes or no? I undrstand your position - yes. You give hell of comparisons with AR and murder-knives - yes. You played mages using different builds - yes. I did the same. But you still did not undeerstand what I was talking about - I have THAT impression. Considering te original point with "OP mages". What the hell are you talking about? Blaming?! I don't blame mages. Let them develop as they want. I have a feeling people don't understand what I mean. Frustrating. But not new to me. O-kay. You're right, we're clearly talking past each other. Thanks for the discussion, it got me thinking.
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1,332
December 2019
jackmorte
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by Sonya on Jan 18, 2020 19:36:44 GMT
Actually, concerning the topic "OP-mages". To put it very simple w.o huge explanations: spells do rather great damage. Period. WB? In all 3 games it is just broken because of a huge damage. It is as an example of a spell. So what I meant by "OP-mages" - spells do great damage (if write it very-very simple). I don't blame mages: a strange thing to say, even insulting. Yeah, thanks for that, Noxluxe.
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