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Post by Walter Black on Jul 11, 2018 13:27:30 GMT
Which I HATED. Yet another example of the writers downplaying the dangers of magic and dealing with spirits in Dragon Age, all to appeal to the player entitlement of hardcore mage fans. Orrrrr... maybe not every single rule of the universe was laid out in the first game, and we should be open to new information as it comes. Perhaps. I just hate fantasy stories where magic and the supernatural are treated with mundane, mechanical utility. Particularly when it comes to writers and players who don't want to deal with any negative side affects of adolescent wish fulfillment in a complex, adult story. You are literally rewriting the fundamental laws of reality, there should be chaos and consequence, a Price for Power. Especially with spirits and demons, living entities with their own unique alien mindsets and rules. If you aren't going to properly explore the ramifications of what does not, cannot exist, you may as well trade the fireballs and astral projection for guns and drugs. As for the topic at hand, if DA4 does have the player become an abomination, I agree Mask of the Betrayer is good to take inspiration from. Also, Geralt's dealings with Master Mirror in The Witcher 3's Hearts of Stone, particularly with Vlodimir von Everec. Switching between the PC and spirit/demon should yield different dialogue and abilities. The nightmarish, schizophrenic worldview from Hellblade: Senua's Sacrice could also inspire an abomination's senses. Mostly though, I hope they take notes from Chapter 2 of the Imperial Agent storyline, one of my favorites in SWTOR. The tense mental chess Cypher Nine plays with Ardun Kothe, not to mention the leftover pychic imprint of Watcher X, could easily simulate the players battle of wills with a spirit or demon. The more you accept their advice and power, the less likely you will be able to break the bond. At the end of the arc, the player could choose to stay possessed, make several difficult Persuasion Checks (remember those? ) to get the demon/spirit to leave, or have left enough clues that their Companions could figure it out and try to Exorcise them.
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Post by phoray on Jul 11, 2018 15:42:53 GMT
Oh wait. This would put a voice in my character's head, wouldn't it? Besides, aren't we the benevolent/malevolent force in our character's head controlling their every whim? Haha yes, the only voice in my character's head I want to hear is my own.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by XJlock on Jul 11, 2018 19:56:15 GMT
I personally would not be interested, but if such a scenario occurred I could see something similar to this happening if a spirit or demon felt like getting a little greedy due to the perks of being the protagonist:
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LadyofNemesis
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jul 11, 2018 20:22:22 GMT
For me I think it all depends on how everything is executed I loved Mask of the Betrayer, you received different abilities depending on how you dealt with the entity inside of you But I wouldn't want for it to be a choice to be forced on the player maybe like the Well of Sorrows, where it's a choice you can decide and while I'm at it...can we please for once NOT have a companion who's an abomination or spirit or whatever? I feel like we've already had enough of those
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Post by Catilina on Jul 12, 2018 23:08:37 GMT
For me I think it all depends on how everything is executed I loved Mask of the Betrayer, you received different abilities depending on how you dealt with the entity inside of you But I wouldn't want for it to be a choice to be forced on the player maybe like the Well of Sorrows, where it's a choice you can decide and while I'm at it...can we please for once NOT have a companion who's an abomination or spirit or whatever? I feel like we've already had enough of those Of course, as a choice, not mandatory. And I would like to see, how can the character decisions and behaviour to shape the purpose and behaviour of the spirit. I want more... especially if good looking, interesting, passionate and romanceable. And if he's an "abomination", I would like more conversation with his spirit side. (We had enough not-spirit/"abomination" too...)
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 13, 2018 0:36:59 GMT
For me I think it all depends on how everything is executed I loved Mask of the Betrayer, you received different abilities depending on how you dealt with the entity inside of you But I wouldn't want for it to be a choice to be forced on the player maybe like the Well of Sorrows, where it's a choice you can decide and while I'm at it...can we please for once NOT have a companion who's an abomination or spirit or whatever? I feel like we've already had enough of those No . In Dragon Age thus far, our spirit Companions have been: -A mostly human, good Faith Abomination (Wynne). -A good spirit unwittingly trapped in the corpse of a good man (Justice). -A good spirit corrupted by it's host's latent anger and resentments, darkspawn blood, and Kirkwall's Hellmouth tendencies (Justice/Vengence). -A damaged spirit of Compassion that may or may not have been a Despair demon*, who could alternatively also become human (Cole). Since Tevinter is the Thedas capital for Black Magic, I want DA4's Fade Companion to be introduced as a bound demon. Not a "cute" one either, but a full monster of Terror that delights in stealing knowledge and secrets, and gets high off pain and misery. After being railroaded into being a goody two-shoes, I want the PC to be able to use this creature to build their own empire, or just watch the world burn . Good characters can still banish this demon, but for those who want to help heal it into becoming a spirit, give them a dilemma: Is it still moral to forcibly change a being's nature, even if they are irredeemably evil? The demon would call such players hypocrites for mind raping it for their own selfish, self righteous code. If the player goes through with the ritual but hasn't put their money where their mouths are (i.e., RP'd as pragmatic, vengeful, or jerkass), the creature becomes a smarter, more powerful demon akin to a high functioning sociopath. If they have been as good as possible (which I hope, given the realities of Tevinter, isn't much) the demon becomes an Advisor spirit. Really, how many players would still the "right" thing if they had to actually sacrifice and lose a Companion ? *I don't care how much Patrick Weekes tried to whitewash the character in Inquisition, the Cole of Asunder could not be so easily pigeonholed one way or the other.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jul 13, 2018 8:49:13 GMT
For me I think it all depends on how everything is executed I loved Mask of the Betrayer, you received different abilities depending on how you dealt with the entity inside of you But I wouldn't want for it to be a choice to be forced on the player maybe like the Well of Sorrows, where it's a choice you can decide and while I'm at it...can we please for once NOT have a companion who's an abomination or spirit or whatever? I feel like we've already had enough of those No . In Dragon Age thus far, our spirit Companions have been: -A mostly human, good Faith Abomination (Wynne). -A good spirit unwittingly trapped in the corpse of a good man (Justice). -A good spirit corrupted by it's host's latent anger and resentments, darkspawn blood, and Kirkwall's Hellmouth tendencies (Justice/Vengence). -A damaged spirit of Compassion that may or may not have been a Despair demon*, who could alternatively also become human (Cole). Since Tevinter is the Thedas capital for Black Magic, I want DA4's Fade Companion to be introduced as a bound demon. Not a "cute" one either, but a full monster of Terror that delights in stealing knowledge and secrets, and gets high off pain and misery. After being railroaded into being a goody two-shoes, I want the PC to be able to use this creature to build their own empire, or just watch the world burn . Good characters can still banish this demon, but for those who want to help heal it into becoming a spirit, give them a dilemma: Is it still moral to forcibly change a being's nature, even if they are irredeemably evil? The demon would call such players hypocrites for mind raping it for their own selfish, self righteous code. If the player goes through with the ritual but hasn't put their money where their mouths are (i.e., RP'd as pragmatic, vengeful, or jerkass), the creature becomes a smarter, more powerful demon akin to a high functioning sociopath. If they have been as good as possible (which I hope, given the realities of Tevinter, isn't much) the demon becomes an Advisor spirit. Really, how many players would still the "right" thing if they had to actually sacrifice and lose a Companion ? *I don't care how much Patrick Weekes tried to whitewash the character in Inquisition, the Cole of Asunder could not be so easily pigeonholed one way or the other. hm, when you put it that way...that would be interesting
the only demons I like the designs of are Pride and Desire (don't get me started on Envy...just...ugh *shudders*)
I would be interested in seeing new demons or spirits introduced in the next game we've heard about spirits of Hope, Love, Fortitude...but we've never actually seen them, only their demon counterparts (Despair, Desire...and, I think Sloth? Would sloth be a counterpart of fortitude? Hm...) I also think it'd be interesting to see spirits who DON'T look like some form of Chantry figure...looking at you Spirit of Faith why not have a spirit of Valor look like a...Qunari for example? Oh...or a dwarf...now that'd be funny xD
But yeah, while we're on the topic...I always play my characters as (lawful)good, having a demonic companion would be interesting as Fenris would put it 'how many temptations do you wish to give a man before he gives in?'
and I loved Asunder, Cole was an amazing character in that novel, I was surprised he was such a nice character in Inquisition it would've been interesting if he had retained some of his more darker aspects from the novel
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2018 15:01:28 GMT
I loved Asunder, Cole was an amazing character in that novel, I was surprised he was such a nice character in Inquisition it would've been interesting if he had retained some of his more darker aspects from the novel It was always somewhat disappointing to me that they never explained how he switched back again to a kind spirit of compassion after he had killed Lambert. The end of the novel was really quite chilling because it seemed like he had turned into a true demon, ironically because of Lambert's action in making him aware of what he really was, but then you only really even get to hear about that incident if you have Cole and Cassandra in the same party. No matter how much he disapproves of your actions, I don't think anything actually comes of it. If we should have a spirit companion in the future I would like there to be some consequences to how you use them and how they view you. So it is possible for the PC to twist the spirit into its opposite persona.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 13, 2018 18:22:26 GMT
I loved Asunder, Cole was an amazing character in that novel, I was surprised he was such a nice character in Inquisition it would've been interesting if he had retained some of his more darker aspects from the novel It was always somewhat disappointing to me that they never explained how he switched back again to a kind spirit of compassion after he had killed Lambert. The end of the novel was really quite chilling because it seemed like he had turned into a true demon, ironically because of Lambert's action in making him aware of what he really was, but then you only really even get to hear about that incident if you have Cole and Cassandra in the same party. No matter how much he disapproves of your actions, I don't think anything actually comes of it. If we should have a spirit companion in the future I would like there to be some consequences to how you use them and how they view you. So it is possible for the PC to twist the spirit into its opposite persona. Rhys, Evangeline see Cole as (good) spirit. Rhys was Cole's only friend – probably his opinion can influence him. To kill Lambert was a very good decision... and not desperate. When Cole killed those mages, he was Despair.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2018 18:37:43 GMT
To kill Lambert was a very good decision... and not desperate. When Cole killed those mages, he was Despair. I think he was responding to the mages' despair and making a quick end of it for them. When they looked him in the eyes they found a sort of peace. Whereas with Lambert he was creating despair in his victim "look into my eyes": I am sure that Lambert was feeling the chill of despair as he died. I suppose you could argue that Cole was feeling compassion for all those mages that Lambert was intending to kill but that is the odd thing about the way he works. Spirits draw on emotions of the real world and are attracted to people who exhibit those emotions they identify with. However, with the original Cole it would seem that the spirit of compassion was drawn to the opposite emotion of despair and wanted to comfort the person who was feeling it. This was also true of the other mages that he killed. To his understanding it was a mercy killing. Then with Lambert it was his total lack of compassion that caused spirit Cole to manifest again. Clearly Cole was by that time so much more than a simple spirit, which is presumably why he was not bound by his original compulsion.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 13, 2018 18:49:51 GMT
To kill Lambert was a very good decision... and not desperate. When Cole killed those mages, he was Despair. I think he was responding to the mages' despair and making a quick end of it for them. When they looked him in the eyes they found a sort of peace. Whereas with Lambert he was creating despair in his victim "look into my eyes": I am sure that Lambert was feeling the chill of despair as he died. I suppose you could argue that Cole was feeling compassion for all those mages that Lambert was intending to kill but that is the odd thing about the way he works.
Spirits draw on emotions of the real world and are attracted to people who exhibit those emotions they identify with. However, with the original Cole it would seem that the spirit of compassion was drawn to the opposite emotion of despair and wanted to comfort the person who was feeling it. This was also true of the other mages that he killed. To his understanding it was a mercy killing. Then with Lambert it was his total lack of compassion that caused spirit Cole to manifest again.
Clearly Cole was by that time so much more than a simple spirit, which is presumably why he was not bound by his original compulsion. Yes, he killed the mages because felt compassion toward them – but it was even despair. He didn't see any other solution to show his compassion and help people than kill them – and this is the despair of the compassion (this is like Justice/Vengeance). When Rhys told him, this is bad – he didn't kill more desperate mages, but tried to help. Even to Pharamond. In the end, he didn't kill Pharamond – while he spoke with him, and Pharamond was desperate. And in the Inquisition he told, he was demon – he killed many mages. He didn't mention Lambert. If he would kill Lambert because of his despair – he would show compassion. I know this is weird, but yes, Cole not that simple spirit. He had the real Cole's memory.
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Post by warden on Jul 15, 2018 22:02:55 GMT
to be honest, I just prefer an option of grab a couple of mages and turn them into abominations, and then only stop until it gets boring.
it's a nice way to make a collection of different abominations and sell them for an expensive price.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 22:09:33 GMT
lol no. Because my mages are the morally responsible mages to make for the non moral one in the party.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 16, 2018 3:14:45 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with?
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LadyofNemesis
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Jul 19, 2018 19:30:49 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? For me I think it'll depend on the story of the game
I'd love to see a spirit of love or hope as for demons, well...I've already said pride and desire are some of my favorite designs, so bonding with them would be interesting ^^ especially because both concepts go beyond just the word just like the sin greed...greed can mean so much more than just material greed for money
oeh...greed demon, that'd be interesting, though I suppose greed is a form of desire hm...now my brain is making overtimes with imagining what a greed demon would look like
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2018 19:56:54 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? Justice – yes, I'm boring, probably, but in Tevinter...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 19:57:23 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? Wisdom would be like having Mythal in your head, but without the old god agenda. Sloth would be hilarious tho.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 19:57:58 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? Justice – yes, I'm boring, probably, but in Tevinter... So shocked. Just so so shocked.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2018 20:00:44 GMT
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? Wisdom would be like having Mythal in your head, but without the old god agenda. Sloth would be hilarious tho. Is Mythal having Wisdom? Mythal is Justice... and Elgar'nan is Vengeance. But Mythal also can be Vengeance as Merrill said if I remember correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 20:12:58 GMT
Wisdom would be like having Mythal in your head, but without the old god agenda. Sloth would be hilarious tho. Is Mythal having Wisdom? Mythal is Justice... and Elgar'nan is Vengeance. But Mythal also can be Vengeance as Merrill said if I remember correctly. Well she has those moments with the IQ when they hear the voices in their head. Like telling the IQ where Coryphifish is, or giving him/her the language to call off the ancient elven in Trespasser. So it's like the knowledge of the ages you know?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2018 20:18:24 GMT
Is Mythal having Wisdom? Mythal is Justice... and Elgar'nan is Vengeance. But Mythal also can be Vengeance as Merrill said if I remember correctly. Well she has those moments with the IQ when they hear the voices in their head. Like telling the IQ where Coryphifish is, or giving him/her the language to call off the ancient elven in Trespasser. So it's like the knowledge of the ages you know? Sorry, I misunderstood you. Wisdom would be great, but... you sure, Mythal really wise? In some view, she is on another hand... Wisdom would be great if the character would be able to twist it – with decisions, behaviour... Or a pride... the character would able to "twist" the pride?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 20:22:03 GMT
Well she has those moments with the IQ when they hear the voices in their head. Like telling the IQ where Coryphifish is, or giving him/her the language to call off the ancient elven in Trespasser. So it's like the knowledge of the ages you know? Sorry, I misunderstood you. Wisdom would be great, but... you sure, Mythal really wise? In some view, she is on another hand... Wisdom would be great if the character would be able to twist it – with decisions, behaviour... Or a pride... the character would able to "twist" the pride? That's why I said Wisdom would be like Mythal, but without her agenda. I'm sure she's up to something....
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Post by Sifr on Jul 22, 2018 3:35:18 GMT
Since Tevinter is the Thedas capital for Black Magic, I want DA4's Fade Companion to be introduced as a bound demon. Not a "cute" one either, but a full monster of Terror that delights in stealing knowledge and secrets, and gets high off pain and misery. After being railroaded into being a goody two-shoes, I want the PC to be able to use this creature to build their own empire, or just watch the world burn . Good characters can still banish this demon, but for those who want to help heal it into becoming a spirit, give them a dilemma: Is it still moral to forcibly change a being's nature, even if they are irredeemably evil? The demon would call such players hypocrites for mind raping it for their own selfish, self righteous code. If the player goes through with the ritual but hasn't put their money where their mouths are (i.e., RP'd as pragmatic, vengeful, or jerkass), the creature becomes a smarter, more powerful demon akin to a high functioning sociopath. If they have been as good as possible (which I hope, given the realities of Tevinter, isn't much) the demon becomes an Advisor spirit. Really, how many players would still the "right" thing if they had to actually sacrifice and lose a Companion ? I would perhaps change this so that our attempt to "heal" the spirit requires us to break the binding... and if done, our goodness is rewarded with the discovery that it was still a demon the entire time and we'd been duped into setting it free.
This twist would actually gel far better with the lore, as several codex entries have previously mentioned the dangers of unbinding spirits and how easily they can turn on their summoners. As a consequence of unbinding our companion, this leads to a few different outcomes;
We can chose to track down the demon and attempt to bind it once more. We can chose to track down the demon and slay it. We can chose to do nothing.
(Doing nothing has it either return as an additional boss later in the game, causes some kind of negative consequence that impacts a later story event, or we get chewed out in the epilogue that many innocents were slaughtered due to our negligence.)
Sure, some players might feel punished by losing a companion in this way, but it's been a while since Bioware has let us lose companions or given us options where the "good" option actually turned out to make everything far worse.
Another minor change I'd have is there is a plot-related reason that requires us to have this bound demon as a companion, some information or power it has that we can't accomplish our goals without. This would allow players who prefer playing as "good" characters to still keep this demon as a companion, without having to tie themselves in knots trying to justify why they wouldn't banish it.
(It's why I've never recruited Morinth in ME2, because I can't justify betraying Samara, let alone why even the most ruthless RenShep would be so insane as to let a serial-killing succubus onto their ship.)
Given the choice, what KIND of demon/spirit would you guys prefer to bond with? Lord Woolsley.
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Post by Reznore on Jul 22, 2018 16:27:53 GMT
Nope. Spirit have some kind of inner cause, and the host can get influenced by that...and if the host resists the cause too much, you end up with a demon inside. Imagine your pc loosing control because you're trying to RP a certain way. If you're stuck with a spirit of compassion, but feel like playing a self serving ass, there's a world of difference between can't be bothered to help and demony posession murder spree.
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theascendent
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jul 22, 2018 16:52:06 GMT
I think Bioware is tinkering with the idea of possession, especially in SWTOR where Vitiate/Valkorian possessed the PC and offered power and suggestions at critical moments. However the loss of control could come unexpectedly if you decided to ignore him at certain points in the game. However the end result was the same no matter how much or how little you gave in to him. So I don't think they will try it again.
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