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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 25, 2018 19:52:19 GMT
When I read words like "unmistakable" (twice!) and "certainty", all I see is weak rhetoric. And hubris. Here's an equally "factual" statement, using your kind of rhetorical speech: It's unmistakable that Bioware has been resisting exploitative recurring revenue (RR) practices since day one. It's a fact that what RR we did see in ME and DA was much less than what EA wanted. The SWBF2 debacle simply confirmed what they've been telling their masters at EA all along. Anthem simply follows the same clear pattern, and you'd have to be willfully blind not to see that pattern. I can use words like "unmistakable" and "clear pattern" just like you, but that doesn't make my statement any less of an unfounded speculation. It's sounds great, sounds convincing, but it's just a guess at its core. That's an unwinnable argument. Let's say they came up with a reason to de-emphasize story, like it got in the way of the co-op design goals or it was too expensive to sustain over a 10 year period of free content drops, which had nothing to do with addictive game loops. Once the game has even one addictive game loop, you're going to assume it's "unmistakable" that the sole reason they de-emphasized story was that game loop. Even though their's no exploitative RR attached to that game loop! Don't get me wrong, from what they've said, the game clearly will have loot-grind addictive game loops. I think we can agree that's an established fact. What's a moot point, again -- because we'll never know the real reason, is whether those loops are solely there because of a more aggressive RR feature set that got ripped out at the last minute. Sorry, but I had to laugh that Bioware got the attribute "butthurt", but fans only got the attribute "angry." Choosing to attack my diction rather than the content of my post makes clear that you really have nothing left to say on the subject. But if you choose to do that in the future, at least quote accurately. Again, what you're trying to paint as a baseless assumption has support from now a half decade of BW/EA business practices and is well documented. If you're going to continue to ignore that obvious point, there's nothing left to say to you. But that’s my point. Your posts on this topic are empty rhetoric dressed up to sound like facts. Once you take away the diction, there’s nothing left. EA’s greedy business practices with respect to FIFA are indeed well documented, but it’s a rather gigantic leap from there to story in Anthem being negatively impacted by effort spent on exploitative RR that has subsequently been removed. That’s just conspiracy theory.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 25, 2018 20:12:57 GMT
There's an unmistakable increase in focus on mtx in their launches leading up to anthem. The pattern couldn't be clearer if it bit you. And then they design a game with a core gameplay loop that is well known to propagate mtx. Call it "unfounded speculation" if you want, but those are the facts, and the implication they create is unmistakable. Hey, can someone unpack the argument here? (I'm assuming there actually is a case.) What's the charge? Exactly how does a core gameplay loop promote mtx? You'll have to dumb it down for me since I don't actually do MP. In addition to shinobi’s excellent example of how randomized loot rewards (aka loot boxes since they use that technique, thought the technique isn’t limited to loot boxes) are exploitative — it’s basically the same thing that’s at the core of addictive gambling; generally figure out what players like, whether it’s better gear, or higher position on the leaderboard, or achievements/trophies, etc., then make a game loop that slowly dribbles out those rewards. Most people get frustrated with the long grind with little gain, and so paying money (mtx) to speed that action/reward rate up starts to seem like a good idea. Purposely manipulating the dribble rate of free play in order to maximize mtx spending is what makes it exploitative. Here’s a great vid on Skinner Boxes in games that explains it well:
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 25, 2018 20:19:30 GMT
And using the BioWare game examples, the reason that I found the ME3MP lootboxes more satisfying was because they did not dispense duplicates. Once you had a Wraith X, you had it.
DAI was less satisfying because you could get repeats.
MEA was most frustrating due to the deluge of additional variants added later on during the run which entirely frustrated any desire I might have had to 'max' my manifest.
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Post by NotN7 on Jul 25, 2018 20:22:33 GMT
As a long time BioWare fan, my reaction to Anthem news was: "BioWare is working on a whole new IP? Neat, can't wait to see what they're going for!" *gameplay video* "Oh, a Destiny/Division clone. Welp." Further news and gameplay demos haven't shaken that let down at all, in fact it's gotten worse as the gameplay I've seen so far seems fairly boring and mundane. Mass Effect is my favorite series of all time (if I ignore MEA) and it was never because BioWare makes great shooter gameplay. They're not great at shooters and yet they keep pushing more and more in that direction. Despite the fact that I've played lots of Destiny and Division, and at least somewhat enjoyed them, I'm not looking forward to a third entry to that genre even from one of my formerly favorite devs. Unfortunately, the more news that comes out, the clearer it becomes that Anthem is exactly what we all expected it to be. I'm with you, very disappointing.
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Post by NotN7 on Jul 25, 2018 20:26:20 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket
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Post by simit on Jul 25, 2018 21:27:19 GMT
(waves back) i guess
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 25, 2018 21:31:00 GMT
Welcome to our boisterous community. Everyone's perspectives are welcomed here.
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Post by NotN7 on Jul 25, 2018 21:34:55 GMT
Ty
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Post by bshep on Jul 25, 2018 22:14:23 GMT
That said, I found ME3 / DAI / MEAMP MTX regimes pretty benign, with ME3 being best and MEAMP being the least (but still moderately) friendly, but none on the problematic scale of Battlefront II. As we're discussing BioWare shouldn't we use BioWare examples? I imagine it would be hard to prove that argument without cherry picking.
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Post by river82 on Jul 25, 2018 22:29:48 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket Welcome to the boards. So you don't think Anthem is very similar to Destiny or Division? Why is that?
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 25, 2018 22:56:07 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket Welcome to the boards. So you don't think Anthem is very similar to Destiny or Division? Why is that? Just another's point of view. How can I make that comparison based on playing hundreds of hours of those games and only watching fifteen minutes of coverage for Anthem? It might, it might not be there really is no way to really tell until February when Anthem is released and we can see what it offers.
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Post by river82 on Jul 25, 2018 23:00:32 GMT
Welcome to the boards. So you don't think Anthem is very similar to Destiny or Division? Why is that? Just another's point of view. How can I make that comparison based on playing hundreds of hours of those games and only watching fifteen minutes of coverage for Anthem? It might, it might not be there really is no way to really tell until February when Anthem is released and we can see what it offers. You can state quite easily that from what we've seen it looks like a Destiny clone. And you can also make the statement that the more we see the more like Destiny it looks. These statements are not stating what it is and so don't require the full game to be released, but is instead voicing our expectation of what will be presented to us come release. We need these expectations because the older people get the more they know what they like, and do not like, and these expectations will help form our decision to purchase or not purchase that game.
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Post by simit on Jul 25, 2018 23:27:54 GMT
Destinys First person, space ship, different planets etc more success saying it same as halo with mass effect abilities
Division more like mass effect which you could say is like GOW just because tps tactical even though tbh there all different
I mean you could say EQ2 the same as WoW which is same as SWTOR which same as Rift even though there all different
Could say CODs same as BF which same as Ghost recon which same as metal gear which same as splinter cell cause well you shoot but again there all different.
There no denying Anthem trying to fit into the same sort of genre as Division, Destiny etc etc there is denying its a clone, is GOW a clone because it uses 2x bumper skills an a ultimate? of course its not
Omg Kratos is a javelin, your right i've found the clone
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 25, 2018 23:46:38 GMT
Hey, can someone unpack the argument here? (I'm assuming there actually is a case.) What's the charge? Exactly how does a core gameplay loop promote mtx? You'll have to dumb it down for me since I don't actually do MP. In addition to shinobi’s excellent example of how randomized loot rewards (aka loot boxes since they use that technique, thought the technique isn’t limited to loot boxes) are exploitative — it’s basically the same thing that’s at the core of addictive gambling; generally figure out what players like, whether it’s better gear, or higher position on the leaderboard, or achievements/trophies, etc., then make a game loop that slowly dribbles out those rewards. Most people get frustrated with the long grind with little gain, and so paying money (mtx) to speed that action/reward rate up starts to seem like a good idea. Purposely manipulating the dribble rate of free play in order to maximize mtx spending is what makes it exploitative. Here’s a great vid on Skinner Boxes in games that explains it well: Thanks. I'm not sure how to draw the line between exploitation and ordinary profit-seeking. Assuming one exists.
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Post by NotN7 on Jul 25, 2018 23:58:23 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket Welcome to the boards. So you don't think Anthem is very similar to Destiny or Division? Why is that? To be honest, I have never played those games I just get tired of people saying we when its "I" they should be saying but from what I have seen and read of Anthem I feel its has elements of STO in STO you progress solo through the episodes there are episodes where (like the free zone in anthem) where all play on the same server and there are the end game zones where you need a team. just BioWare changed the order of how it will play out, me i'm looking forward to playing Anthem OH! STO is StarTrek Online just in case ya didn't know. as for loot boxes you either buy them or you don't simple enough, who cares if someone else is paying to win bragging rights (shrug) I don't, I play to play, simple
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Post by shinobiwan on Jul 26, 2018 4:17:37 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket It's really hard to understand your post, but if you're talking to me, the only "we" I used in this entire thread is the phrase "we're close enough to release," which just means the release date is near. So I frankly have no clue what your beef is.
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Post by NotN7 on Jul 26, 2018 4:30:32 GMT
LOOK UP! to my first post replying to your reply to lennybuskers post
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Post by Quickpaw on Jul 27, 2018 1:26:30 GMT
And using the BioWare game examples, the reason that I found the ME3MP lootboxes more satisfying was because they did not dispense duplicates. Once you had a Wraith X, you had it. DAI was less satisfying because you could get repeats. MEA was most frustrating due to the deluge of additional variants added later on during the run which entirely frustrated any desire I might have had to 'max' my manifest. You know that the VAST majority of what you get out of lootboxes in ME3 was consumables and duplicate class colors, yes? Only the Weapons, mods, and gear were one-time unlock, and usually you had to get the packs specifically for them. The only reason I give ME3 a mostly-pass here is that you spending money on gambling affected only yourself and could only really negatively impact other people if you used something like the "infinite missile" exploit. As for the topic at hand... Bioware is HOW I got into gaming in the first place, and has been one of if not THE best studio for character and narrative driven RPGs for close to two decades now, and found its success by marketing and developing for a very specific niche audience. And now its going for a completely different demographic of people, by its own admission abandoning quite a few of the traits that made them unique and distinct as a gaming developer. Whether or not this will work at all is still up in the air. For me personally, it's forced me to approach Anthem with a different mindset than most of Bioware's earlier releases, even recent ones like MEA and DAI. That has "somewhat" worked in Anthem's favor, but I'm still left with a bitter taste in my mouth. Anthem's current saving grace is that it's a new IP that can technically be any goddamn thing it wants, but the Bioware brand name carries expectations. Expectations which, I'm sure you'll note, are not only not being met, but are being flagrantly discarded. No, I don't want Bioware to just keep making the same game(s) over and over again. But abandoning what made you great and unique to become exactly like most AAA (please read in Jim Sterling's voice) companies is not the way to profit or keeping your customers happy. See the current avalanche of battle royale games for proof of that.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2018 1:43:30 GMT
In addition to shinobi’s excellent example of how randomized loot rewards (aka loot boxes since they use that technique, thought the technique isn’t limited to loot boxes) are exploitative — it’s basically the same thing that’s at the core of addictive gambling; generally figure out what players like, whether it’s better gear, or higher position on the leaderboard, or achievements/trophies, etc., then make a game loop that slowly dribbles out those rewards. Most people get frustrated with the long grind with little gain, and so paying money (mtx) to speed that action/reward rate up starts to seem like a good idea. Purposely manipulating the dribble rate of free play in order to maximize mtx spending is what makes it exploitative. Here’s a great vid on Skinner Boxes in games that explains it well: Thanks. I'm not sure how to draw the line between exploitation and ordinary profit-seeking. Assuming one exists. You make a good point. Sometimes the line is pretty grey and fuzzy. But then there are things that are blatant, like how SWBF2 made the Darth Vader character available only through mtx -- in other words, they manipulated the dribble rate of that free play reward down to 0. Considering how many people bought the game solely so that they could play as Darth Vader, I think that goes beyond ordinary profit-seeking. Another blatant case is when some reward starts out free and relatively easy to get, but through online analytics monitoring of how popular that reward is, the devs patch the game to make that reward either require mtx or crank the dribble rate down so low that you're forced to buy it with mtx. Sure, some MBA can call that maximizing profit, but the same can be said for any price-gouging scenario as well. Egg trucker's union on strike and your grocer's jacked up the price of the last crate of eggs by 2000%? That's just profit motive -- you don't *need* to eat eggs!
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 27, 2018 5:48:00 GMT
Thanks. I'm not sure how to draw the line between exploitation and ordinary profit-seeking. Assuming one exists. You make a good point. Sometimes the line is pretty grey and fuzzy. But then there are things that are blatant, like how SWBF2 made the Darth Vader character available only through mtx -- in other words, they manipulated the dribble rate of that free play reward down to 0. Considering how many people bought the game solely so that they could play as Darth Vader, I think that goes beyond ordinary profit-seeking. Another blatant case is when some reward starts out free and relatively easy to get, but through online analytics monitoring of how popular that reward is, the devs patch the game to make that reward either require mtx or crank the dribble rate down so low that you're forced to buy it with mtx. Sure, some MBA can call that maximizing profit, but the same can be said for any price-gouging scenario as well. Egg trucker's union on strike and your grocer's jacked up the price of the last crate of eggs by 2000%? That's just profit motive -- you don't *need* to eat eggs! Well, you don't need to eat eggs (implying you don't need to buy them, right?), but when you look at our tirple A games - that is stuff ppl usually HAVE bought. And this is the shitty part of it. A F2P game needs to make a profit with in-game sales usually. But our tirple A friends like to take the cash upfront so they can manipulate us with drop rate to squeeze out even more cash. Then when the milk is milked they like to throw the next best thing on the market to charge you again up front and the cycle begins anew. It looks good on the balance sheet, but it's wasteful business, promotes garbage gameplay and educates players in a throwaway mentality.
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Post by warden on Jul 27, 2018 11:12:28 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket calm your butt pal, newbies first listen, then talk.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Jul 27, 2018 12:44:27 GMT
I know this is an over-simplified statement, but even so, I believe it is true: There is plenty of hate to find if you go looking for it. I don't go looking for it, and have come across very little of it. I believe 90% of the posts involving "Andromeda hate" that I see are referring to the 10% that actually seem to be there. Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket calm your butt pal, newbies first listen, then talk. Dafuq rule are you trying to enforce and by what authority? O.o
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Post by warden on Jul 27, 2018 14:02:01 GMT
I know this is an over-simplified statement, but even so, I believe it is true: There is plenty of hate to find if you go looking for it. I don't go looking for it, and have come across very little of it. I believe 90% of the posts involving "Andromeda hate" that I see are referring to the 10% that actually seem to be there. calm your butt pal, newbies first listen, then talk. Dafuq rule are you trying to enforce and by what authority? O.o none, i'm just having fun
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 27, 2018 15:45:14 GMT
Sorry, New to the boards, (Waves) ShINoBiwan Sorry but I'M not part of "we" so don't even think to speak for me NUF Said, unless (points Up) is the mouse in your pocket calm your butt pal, newbies first listen, then talk. NotN7, you can safely ignore anything this warden says.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 27, 2018 18:28:23 GMT
Now, everyone is entitled to their own opinions for sure, and some of the concerns and skepticism are permitted to a degree. However, what do you all think are some sources of the Anthem hate/concerns and are they justified? How can they be quelled? I'd definitely enjoy hearing your opinions! late to the party, but: 1) It's a looter-shooter, not an RPG, and RPGs are what put Bioware on the map to begin with 2) No companions and minimal NPC interaction (besides shooting them) 3) Game is primarily multiplayer. Even if you can do the critical storyline solo, it is increasingly obvious that solo players are going to be merely tolerated, rather than catered to any degree. 4) EA's abysmal track record regarding always online and microtransaction policies. 5) The fact that Bioware has hung at least one primarily SP franchise out to dry to get this out the door 6) Bioware's increasing problem with promising big and delivering small. 7) ME3. Bioware and EA have never truly recovered from that, and anything new will be treated with suspicion for the foreseeable future.
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