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Post by Hrungr on Aug 2, 2018 18:21:17 GMT
Kotaku: What A 'Live' (Dragon Age) RPG Might Look Likekotaku.com/what-a-live-rpg-might-look-like-1828058509?utm_medium=Socialflow&utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Twitter&utm_source=Kotaku_Twitter Erick wrote: I really enjoy your podcast and your GDC coverage was great! My favorite games are the story driven RPGs (KOTOR, Dragon Age:Origins, Mass Effect, Witcher 3), but they seem to be dying in this era of multiplayer games as a service. My question: Is there a way to turn a game like Dragon Age: Origins into a live service game while keeping it single player and story driven?
Jason: I think that question is something that BioWare is asking themselves constantly also—how do you turn Dragon Age into a live service game while also making it story focused? I think the obvious solution that people have come up with so far is just making it episodic and releasing different parts of the story as time goes on. I think there are a lot of interesting approaches you could take. One of the things you could do is make the story change based on what the players do, and there are some interesting experiments that I could imagine game developers taking.
In a Dragon Age live service game, for example, if everyone had to side with either the templars or mages and whichever faction got the most players that became the canon decision and the story evolved from there. Then a pack came out next month that was like oh, the players decided to side with the templar, and then this and this happened. The other potential answer is that you go fully online and embrace a living world, MMO-style, and then I’m sure there are a billion other ideas I haven’t thought of. What do you think?
Kirk: I think the “keeping it single-player” is the most challenging part of this, because the way multiplayer causes people to be more engaged, and more motivated to play, and get in there with their friends and do stuff, and that’s such a desirable thing for a game to have right now. At least for major publishers, I think just single-player alone is going to be uncommon, although there’s games like Divinity Original Sin 2 and stuff like that—there are still epic single-player RPGs, they’re just more double-A and less triple-A.
Outside of RPGs, I think Hitman is a good example of a game that is a single-player complicated game that had a service component, timed events, chapters that were released the way you’re talking about. It was different than Life Is Strange or a Telltale game, or that wonderful-sounding thing you’re describing where the narrative changes. So yeah, people are still experimenting with these ideas, and I’m looking forward to whatever game it is that shows a new way forward. Maybe it’ll be Anthem, who knows?
Jason: Yeah, although obviously that’s not single-player, it’s online-only.
Kirk: Right, but they do seem to be saying it’s going to be a BioWare-style story, and a lot of writing, and it’ll feel like a single-player game.
Jason: Yeah. I do think it’s really tough—how do you do a service game that’s story-driven and single-player? In January I reported that BioWare had rebooted Dragon Age 4 and is retooling it as a service game—and if you put the pieces together, look at how [creative director] Mike Laidlaw left, and Mark Darrah is now executive producer on Anthem, you can read the tea leaves here and see that Dragon Age 4 is getting totally overhauled. Not to say that it won’t be in the same universe, but the new game they were working on was overhauled. And I think they’re going to be exploring these questions and trying to figure out what they can do with Dragon Age as a service.
Casey Hudson had chimed in after my article to be like, what we mean by live game is continued story support, basically saying what I had reported, but I think this is going to be different than just “game comes out, then there’s DLC.” I don’t think that’s the model they’re going for anymore. Especially because DLC, from what I’ve heard anecdotally, does not really sell that well anymore these days—those big $15 DLC packs don’t do that well anymore... I don’t think that model is super effective. I think they’re exploring new models, which’ll be interesting to see.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 2, 2018 18:54:29 GMT
I'm making a face. And it's not a happy one.
We'll see what comes out of the "reboot" but my crystal ball tells me in 5 years or so, looking back on DA4 and people being displeased...Bioware PR will sing again "Err, yes, mistakes were made".
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Post by samhain444 on Aug 2, 2018 18:58:54 GMT
So guys on a podcast talking out of their collective asses...I'll wait for the official word
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Aug 2, 2018 19:02:33 GMT
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Post by gangrelbeckett on Aug 2, 2018 19:04:12 GMT
EA is stupid to believe that they could change all their Games to Crazy Cash Cows like Fifa and its Ultimate Team.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Aug 2, 2018 19:10:43 GMT
Multiplayer won't make me more engaged, it will make me not buy. I sincerely hope this is just a bunch of speculation and b.s. I don't want to HAVE to be online to play a game.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 2, 2018 19:29:40 GMT
It's worth keeping in mind Casey Hudson's tweet from earlier this year...
Casey Hudson @caseydhudson Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused.
Too early to talk details, but when we talk about “live” it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 2, 2018 19:35:15 GMT
In a Dragon Age live service game, for example, if everyone had to side with either the templars or mages and whichever faction got the most players that became the canon decision and the story evolved from there. Then a pack came out next month that was like oh, the players decided to side with the templar, and then this and this happened. The other potential answer is that you go fully online and embrace a living world, MMO-style, and then I’m sure there are a billion other ideas I haven’t thought of. What do you think?
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Post by Sondergaard on Aug 2, 2018 19:42:25 GMT
So Ubisoft are going all in on single player RPGs with Odyssey, completely ignoring the 'single player is dead!' crowd, while the kings of single player RPGs are going 'live'? There's something wrong with this picture.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 2, 2018 19:44:58 GMT
That really does sound astonishingly terrible. Like, wow. I really hope Jason is just "reading the tea leaves" here cuz if this is a whiff of rumor he's sniffed out or gossip he's heard or even leakage he got from Bioware to test how the idea would be received I just wanna be clear here that I at least would absolutely hate that. It's hard to think of a worse idea honestly.
After all those assurances that live services didn't have to entail all those things we kinda recoiled at and it could just mean long term SP support this is like a hard slap in the face.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 2, 2018 19:49:51 GMT
So Ubisoft are going all in on single player RPGs with Odyssey, completely ignoring the 'single player is dead!' crowd, while the kings of single player RPGs are going 'live'? There's something wrong with this picture. Psst.... Ubisoft considers Assasins' Creed Origins and Oddessey to be "live" service games.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 2, 2018 19:56:52 GMT
I also point out that none of this would actually work developmentally, I don't think I know any studio that is able to respond to player habits/feedback that quickly - content seems to be start being made at least 6 months in advance of it coming live. You wouldn't be able to respond quickly enough to what players are doing without only having content 2 times a year, which isn't enough for a live game.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 2, 2018 20:00:38 GMT
So Ubisoft are going all in on single player RPGs with Odyssey, completely ignoring the 'single player is dead!' crowd, while the kings of single player RPGs are going 'live'? There's something wrong with this picture. Odyssey (as is previous AC) is a live service game, lol. If Odyssey can be single player and a live service game, so can Bioware games. Don't confuse live services for what they aren't, or the above speculations for how things will be for DA.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 2, 2018 20:04:38 GMT
I also point out that none of this would actually work developmentally, I don't think I know any studio that is able to respond to player habits/feedback that quickly - content seems to be start being made at least 6 months in advance of it coming live. You wouldn't be able to respond quickly enough to what players are doing without only having content 2 times a year, which isn't enough for a live game. Well, unless they'd have scenarios prepared already. Which I don't think they will, considering how expensive branching storylines are. I think the idea of collective decisionmaking is interesting, but only as some sort of quirk somewhere outside of the realm of storyline or main campaign.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 2, 2018 20:07:51 GMT
That really does sound astonishingly terrible. Like, wow. I really hope Jason is just "reading the tea leaves" here cuz if this is a whiff of rumor he's sniffed out or gossip he's heard or even leakage he got from Bioware to test how the idea would be received I just wanna be clear here that I at least would absolutely hate that. It's hard to think of a worse idea honestly. After all those assurances that live services didn't have to entail all those things we kinda recoiled at and it could just mean long term SP support this is like a hard slap in the face. Didn't he directly state that he's reading the tea leaves there somewhere? I wouldn't put too much weight into this guesswork. There's a difference between reporting what happened and speculating what will happen.
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Post by rras1994 on Aug 2, 2018 20:10:36 GMT
I also point out that none of this would actually work developmentally, I don't think I know any studio that is able to respond to player habits/feedback that quickly - content seems to be start being made at least 6 months in advance of it coming live. You wouldn't be able to respond quickly enough to what players are doing without only having content 2 times a year, which isn't enough for a live game. Well, unless they'd have scenarios prepared already. Which I don't think they will, considering how expensive branching storylines are. I think the idea of collective decisionmaking is interesting, but only as some sort of quirk somewhere outside of the realm of storyline or main campaign. I've seen SWTOR do it a little bit but the content chosen was very small (basically a companion with a few scripted lines to recruit, and that doesn't ever feature in story content after that, and is basically cosmetic), and it was part of a months long event that had other rewards - the other companion not chosen was released later as a different reward. I just can't see it being fiscally possible doing large bits of content for it, where you wouldn't even be able to give the non-chosen content at a later date as by the example in the OP it would be too divergent - the amount of waste of resources going into that, knowing a large amount of work would be scrapped sounds unreal.
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Post by Sanunes on Aug 2, 2018 20:12:04 GMT
Got to love the morons that talk out of their asses about a game while saying what they are going to do and not actually read what the developers are doing and have stated what a live-service game is for them.
Everything I have read at least BioWare and I think its EA as well is their stance for a live service game is to add content to a game without patching. My guess is to avoid potential costs from Sony and Microsoft. So they consider Andromeda's MP to be live service because they were able to add or release new content without having a major patch.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 2, 2018 20:41:56 GMT
Got to love the morons that talk out of their asses about a game while saying what they are going to do and not actually read what the developers are doing and have stated what a live-service game is for them. Everything I have read at least BioWare and I think its EA as well is their stance for a live service game is to add content to a game without patching. My guess is to avoid potential costs from Sony and Microsoft. So they consider Andromeda's MP to be live service because they were able to add or release new content without having a major patch. I think people make a bit too much out of what seems to be a very loose conversation. It's so loose in fact, that Schreier can't seem to make his mind about the live service and what can be done with it. In podcast he muses " I do think it’s really tough—how do you do a service game that’s story-driven and single-player?" ...while in comments under the Kotaku transcript he clearly states: 'Live service' doesn’t mean “game you play forever.” No Man’s Sky is a live service game. Hitman (2016) is a live service game. Final Fantasy XV is a live service game. Diablo III and Fortnite and Minecraft and Splatoon are all live service games, as are Far Cry 5 and Assassin’s Creed Origins. We’re talking about games that are continually updated and cultivated so that they’ll make revenue beyond the $60 sticker price..." So he recognizes that live service games indeed can be comfortably story-driven and predominantly SP because that's what games like Hitman, FFXV or AC Origins are. And I don't necessarily want to accuse Shreier of trying to rock the boat in face of scarce information from developers about the title - I just think that this isn't supposed to be treated as more than non-committal musing on the topic.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2018 21:09:11 GMT
So two thoughts:
1. They are right that this is going to be a jugling act whether or not this means incorporating multiplayer into this live service scheme or not. Yes, there are apparently live service games (admittedly this is a relatively new term for me so I am still working out the definition), that are single player. But there is light years of difference between Hitman and Dragon Age. Or even Far Cry and Dragon Age. And while I think it is possible the DA developers are going to have to be very careful. Because there are a million different definitions of what the word 'story' means (after all there are people who believe DA I, MEA, and even DA 2 didn't tell a complete story, and there are those who believe all those games did). So there challenge is thus: Making us BioWare fans feel like our initial purchase was well worth it, tell a complete story likely involving some combination of Solas, the Qunari invasion, and maybe the Tevinter resistance, and then release future packs...I do not know what form this will take...which will take the place of their former DLCs which can expand on side stories and maybe, just maybe, set up future full games. For instance we could see a future expansion set in Kal Shirok which deals with the Titans...
Or alternatively all the live service elements could be MP focused and they will just basically give us all the SP content in one go.
2. The idea of having canon being decided through collective vote is anathema to me. I do NOT want my decisions being decided for me by a comittee of other players who do not agree with me.
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Post by Sondergaard on Aug 2, 2018 22:47:23 GMT
So Ubisoft are going all in on single player RPGs with Odyssey, completely ignoring the 'single player is dead!' crowd, while the kings of single player RPGs are going 'live'? There's something wrong with this picture. Odyssey (as is previous AC) is a live service game, lol. If Odyssey can be single player and a live service game, so can Bioware games. Don't confuse live services for what they aren't, or the above speculations for how things will be for DA. Point is, Origins plays as a single player game. They can call it whatever they like, it plays as single player. I'm assuming the same will be true of Odyssey (we'll know in a couple of months). After Andromeda I just don't trust EA to take any care of this or any other franchise beyond getting piles of pre-orders, calling it a win and moving on.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 2, 2018 22:59:10 GMT
So Ubisoft are going all in on single player RPGs with Odyssey, completely ignoring the 'single player is dead!' crowd, while the kings of single player RPGs are going 'live'? There's something wrong with this picture. Ubisoft wants to be Bioware. Bioware wants to be Bungie. "Live service" with Dragon Age reminds me of this old comic: www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/06/a-truly-fascinating-phenomenon
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Post by coldsteelblue on Aug 2, 2018 23:03:40 GMT
Hmm, what to say here, there's a lot to cover, but the first thing I want to bring up is; if memory serves, when Jason mentioned the reboot of DA before, wasn't he called out on it & back-peddled on it, saying that he mis-spoke, now only to use the phrase again?
Anyway, on to what I really want to say; Live service covers a great many things, from regular dlc drops, to hotfix updates for MP & other online components, it does not necessarily mean an always online game, nor does it mean episodic gameplay, or even a Demon's Souls style of gameplay.
I think that the reworking of the live service elements of DA was possibly just to change how the MP worked, maybe work it more into the SP, like ME3's war assets, or to lessen the impact of MP on SP.
I could list dozens of other things, but I'm not going to, all we can do at the moment is wait & see what is going to happen & give feedback when we do learn things.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 2, 2018 23:12:40 GMT
Odyssey (as is previous AC) is a live service game, lol. If Odyssey can be single player and a live service game, so can Bioware games. Don't confuse live services for what they aren't, or the above speculations for how things will be for DA. Point is, Origins plays as a single player game. They can call it whatever they like, it plays as single player. I'm assuming the same will be true of Odyssey (we'll know in a couple of months). After Andromeda I just don't trust EA to take any care of this or any other franchise beyond getting piles of pre-orders, calling it a win and moving on. What is amusing is that DA devs were quick to point out that every DA game to date - including Origins - had live service elements. So while I expect some changes in formula, I wouldn't confuse molehills for mountains just yet. Especially that even without any directives from above, if there's one thing one can expect from Bioware, is that they are going to experiment with the formula.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2018 23:27:30 GMT
Odyssey (as is previous AC) is a live service game, lol. If Odyssey can be single player and a live service game, so can Bioware games. Don't confuse live services for what they aren't, or the above speculations for how things will be for DA. Point is, Origins plays as a single player game. They can call it whatever they like, it plays as single player. I'm assuming the same will be true of Odyssey (we'll know in a couple of months). After Andromeda I just don't trust EA to take any care of this or any other franchise beyond getting piles of pre-orders, calling it a win and moving on. Considering that is not even remotely what happened with Andromeda...
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 3, 2018 0:26:15 GMT
I just want a traditional single-player DA4 before the series goes down the drain.
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