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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 23, 2018 18:21:09 GMT
I've said it before and I will say it again, Mass Effect 3 is my favorite of the Mass Effect games. That said, even I can't deny it has it's share of problems, particularly with it's ending. As I was thinking of ways I could have improved the ending choices to be more character centric (which could equal more powerful), I realized an issue I don't think anybody here has talked about, and might be controversial to some. I didn't care at all about Earth.
Let me explain. A big part of Mass Effect 3's advertising was the whole "Take Back Earth" campaign, discussing how the fundamental goal in Mass Effect 3 will be to save planet Earth from the Reapers. The problem is in the actual game, Earth rarely makes an appearance or has any importance to the story outside of it being where the game starts and ends. We barely see much of planet Earth before the attack, and the design isn't really anything special. If you showed someone a clip from the beginning sequence without any proper context included, they probably wouldn't guess that it was Earth they were seeing since it looks very similar to some of the other alien city planets.
Between leaving Earth and returning to Earth, we also never get any indication to care about Earth, as they larger focus is aimed more towards the rest of the galaxy. I know James Vega talks about Earth fondly, but because he's a new character we don't know if we should like, it's not enough. Shouldn't Shepard also have fond memories of Earth? Heck, of his three backstories, only one of them has him come from Earth, and it wasn't a pleasant experience for him.
If Bioware wanted Earth to play a big part in Mass Effect 3, they needed to come up with a better solution than just the planet being taken by the Reapers. I know they tried to make us care by having Anderson (the father figure) stay on Earth and continue to talk about the struggles on Earth, but "show don't tell." It's much more powerful if we could actually see Earth and connect with Earth properly.
Some ways they could have increased Earth importance:
1. Have a tutorial sequence BEFORE Earth gets attacked. Maybe have Shepard hang out with James for a while and do some exercises like the gun range or racing around a park. Between teaching the game mechanics, you can have moments where Shepard and James can talk about how Shepard likes (or doesn't like Earth) and maybe meet some locations or characters that could play a role near the ending of the game. Then the invasion happens and you feel bad because the characters you met and locations you visited are getting hurt or destroyed.
2. Have the dream sequences be flashbacks to Shepard's time spent on Earth. These can be strictly narrative moments where Shepard can interact with certain characters or reminisce about being in the military since he was let go, essentially forming a bond with the place and the planet. The dreams can obviously turn into messed up nightmare sequences, but we still care for them because we know their based on memories of Earth.
3. Instead of having Earth be attacked, make Earth the central hub for the galaxy since the Citadel was destroyed. Granted, it kind of goes against the whole take Earth back marketing and will also require a serious rewrite to make up for the Catalyst.
If nothing else, probably the most drastic thing Bioware could have done is not use Earth at all, instead replacing it with Eden Prime. Fitting seeing as it's where the whole franchise began and where it could end. Almost full circle.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2018 18:50:48 GMT
Have Shepard visit the area where he/she grew up, if Earthborn.
If colonist or spacer, have a scene with Shepard and another character taking in the sights in Vancouver. Maybe go to BC Place to see the BC Lions play football against whoever. Or maybe see the Vancouver Canucks, hockey team, play at Rodgers Arena.
One of the reasons why I believe the final fight and ending took place on Earth is because Anderson is there. If he wasn't the ending could have taken place anywhere in the galaxy. If I was the reapers, I would have left the Citadel in the Widow System.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 18:55:43 GMT
I don't know that I agree. Shepard had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the support of the Council, the turians, the salarians, the asari, the krogan, the quarians and the geth. All of that needed to be done just to get those races to agree to help Earth. And it made a difference because all of them did end up coming to Earth to take it back.
I don't think there's any need to dwell on Earth constantly. We know why we're doing it. Shepard is also in contact with Anderson, which keeps Earth on our minds. Earth being the hub would make humanity seem ever more like that "special snowflake" than it already is. The Citadel wasn't even destroyed until after RGB so option 3 makes no sense.
Did we have a tutorial sequence in ME1? I feel like we introduced a few people and then jumped right into Eden Prime. How is that especially different than what had happened in ME3? If you feel lost, there are tons of codex entries to read.
You have some interesting ideas but I don't know if any of them would make the game better.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 23, 2018 19:21:30 GMT
I don't know that I agree. Shepard had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the support of the Council, the turians, the salarians, the asari, the krogan, the quarians and the geth. All of that needed to be done just to get those races to agree to help Earth. And it made a difference because all of them did end up coming to Earth to take it back. I don't think there's any need to dwell on Earth constantly. We know why we're doing it. Shepard is also in contact with Anderson, which keeps Earth on our minds. Earth being the hub would make humanity seem ever more like that "special snowflake" than it already is. The Citadel wasn't even destroyed until after RGB so option 3 makes no sense. Did we have a tutorial sequence in ME1? I feel like we introduced a few people and then jumped right into Eden Prime. How is that especially different than what had happened in ME3? If you feel lost, there are tons of codex entries to read. You have some interesting ideas but I don't know if any of them would make the game better. I don't know, from what I remember, even though Shepard's original goal when he left Earth was to convince the Citadel council to help take back Earth, it felt like the goal suddenly changed to building the Crucible against the Reaper, which as far as I'm aware didn't need Earth anyway. You could have replaced Earth with any planet or human colony and it wouldn't matter. Something to understand is that there's a difference between KNOWING why we're doing something and CARING about why we're doing something. I know we know the reason for our mission is to help Anderson, which keeps Earth in mind, but aside from conversations, there doesn't seem to be anything driving us to Care about Earth. I don't think my ideas would have fixed the whole game, but it would be a small improvement in my opinion.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 19:50:39 GMT
I don't know that I agree. Shepard had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the support of the Council, the turians, the salarians, the asari, the krogan, the quarians and the geth. All of that needed to be done just to get those races to agree to help Earth. And it made a difference because all of them did end up coming to Earth to take it back. I don't think there's any need to dwell on Earth constantly. We know why we're doing it. Shepard is also in contact with Anderson, which keeps Earth on our minds. Earth being the hub would make humanity seem ever more like that "special snowflake" than it already is. The Citadel wasn't even destroyed until after RGB so option 3 makes no sense. Did we have a tutorial sequence in ME1? I feel like we introduced a few people and then jumped right into Eden Prime. How is that especially different than what had happened in ME3? If you feel lost, there are tons of codex entries to read. You have some interesting ideas but I don't know if any of them would make the game better. I don't know, from what I remember, even though Shepard's original goal when he left Earth was to convince the Citadel council to help take back Earth, it felt like the goal suddenly changed to building the Crucible against the Reaper, which as far as I'm aware didn't need Earth anyway. You could have replaced Earth with any planet or human colony and it wouldn't matter. Something to understand is that there's a difference between KNOWING why we're doing something and CARING about why we're doing something. I know we know the reason for our mission is to help Anderson, which keeps Earth in mind, but aside from conversations, there doesn't seem to be anything driving us to Care about Earth. I don't think my ideas would have fixed the whole game, but it would be a small improvement in my opinion. Sure, he was sent by Anderson to go to the Council. However, Hackett ordered him to Mars first to find the blueprints for this weapon that was housed there. Obviously, that meant taking a detour and then trying to convince the Council to help build it. That means Shepard's goal was derailed because, once again, the Council is full of self-centered assholes.
Personally, I care about Earth's fate. I'm willing to bet a lot of people here - all humans - feel the same. Maybe the other races don't care about Earth but that's why Shepard jumped through all those hoops to get them to come anyway. You do great things for them and they'll pay you back for it. Annoying but I see why each of these other races would demand help before being willing to go to save someone else's ass.
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Post by vonuber on Aug 23, 2018 20:20:13 GMT
Earth wasn't important in the galaxy. Thessia, Palaven etc were much more important to galactic survival.
However don't get me started on how borked Bioware's galaxy building was, for example the population on Earth has more people on it than the entire populations of other species who have been colonising the galaxy for thousands of years. That's just stupid.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 23, 2018 23:54:42 GMT
I don't know, from what I remember, even though Shepard's original goal when he left Earth was to convince the Citadel council to help take back Earth, it felt like the goal suddenly changed to building the Crucible against the Reaper, which as far as I'm aware didn't need Earth anyway. You could have replaced Earth with any planet or human colony and it wouldn't matter. Something to understand is that there's a difference between KNOWING why we're doing something and CARING about why we're doing something. I know we know the reason for our mission is to help Anderson, which keeps Earth in mind, but aside from conversations, there doesn't seem to be anything driving us to Care about Earth. I don't think my ideas would have fixed the whole game, but it would be a small improvement in my opinion. Sure, he was sent by Anderson to go to the Council. However, Hackett ordered him to Mars first to find the blueprints for this weapon that was housed there. Obviously, that meant taking a detour and then trying to convince the Council to help build it. That means Shepard's goal was derailed because, once again, the Council is full of self-centered assholes.
Personally, I care about Earth's fate. I'm willing to bet a lot of people here - all humans - feel the same. Maybe the other races don't care about Earth but that's why Shepard jumped through all those hoops to get them to come anyway. You do great things for them and they'll pay you back for it. Annoying but I see why each of these other races would demand help before being willing to go to save someone else's ass.
I agree with you for the most part. But is it really self centered ass holes for not instantly sending valuable resources to help the Alliance build an unknown and untested device and to throw thousands of troops at an already conquered planet when others are still fighting off the invasion?
Of all their actions in the trilogy to me this is the least self centered ass hole behavior of them all.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 23, 2018 23:55:37 GMT
Earth wasn't important in the galaxy. Thessia, Palaven etc were much more important to galactic survival. However don't get me started on how borked Bioware's galaxy building was, for example the population on Earth has more people on it than the entire populations of other species who have been colonising the galaxy for thousands of years. That's just stupid. To be fair we as a race really like sex.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 24, 2018 0:41:48 GMT
Honestly I found it hard to care too. I'd spent so long literally everywhere else it was odd to be back there. I felt the same way. I wish we'd gotten to spend more time on Earth, but playing as Shepard, Earth did not tug at my emotions any more strongly than did Palaven, for instance. As an Earthling myself, I obviously care about Earth. But within the game, Colonist and Spacer Shepard never really made a home on Earth, and Earthborn Shepard barely talks about it, so they might as well not have grown up there either.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 0:57:18 GMT
Sure, he was sent by Anderson to go to the Council. However, Hackett ordered him to Mars first to find the blueprints for this weapon that was housed there. Obviously, that meant taking a detour and then trying to convince the Council to help build it. That means Shepard's goal was derailed because, once again, the Council is full of self-centered assholes.
Personally, I care about Earth's fate. I'm willing to bet a lot of people here - all humans - feel the same. Maybe the other races don't care about Earth but that's why Shepard jumped through all those hoops to get them to come anyway. You do great things for them and they'll pay you back for it. Annoying but I see why each of these other races would demand help before being willing to go to save someone else's ass.
I agree with you for the most part. But is it really self centered ass holes for not instantly sending valuable resources to help the Alliance build an unknown and untested device and to throw thousands of troops at an already conquered planet when others are still fighting off the invasion?
Of all their actions in the trilogy to me this is the least self centered ass hole behavior of them all.
OK, I'll acknowledge that. I guess it's just frustration because the Council never believed Shepard at any time in the entire trilogy, even though he was always proven to be right. Then, when the Reapers come rolling in, they're like "oh, shit, we fucked up. but now we can't afford to help anyone else."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 1:13:56 GMT
I would have started ME3 with the absolute destruction of the Citadel, in other words, the pattern of the Reaper attack should have been the same as when they attacked the Protheans. Then, Shepard's task could have been united a galaxy that has lost it's major seat of government and the hub of what connected all the MW species together. Then, I would have placed the final battle either on Ilos, with the Conduit revealing itself as being something far greater and more powerful than merely a back door onto the Citadel.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 15:17:57 GMT
I felt the same way. I wish we'd gotten to spend more time on Earth, but playing as Shepard, Earth did not tug at my emotions any more strongly than did Palaven, for instance. As an Earthling myself, I obviously care about Earth. But within the game, Colonist and Spacer Shepard never really made a home on Earth, and Earthborn Shepard barely talks about it, so they might as well not have grown up there either. Omg I'm from Earth too! Small universe.... I cared more about Palaven and the Citadel tbh, which is odd when you think about it. I remember wanting to go to Earth in 1 and being bummed that you couldn't. It barely exists in 1 and 2, then when you get there it's your bloody prison. That's what you get for killing 300,000 batarians. Admittedly, it was necessary, even though batarians tried to destroy Terra Nova...and with an asteroid, which smacks of karma. (FYI, I'm aware that most bararians are just normal people and that it's the terrorists that give them a bad name.)
I think Earth mattered because 1) it's the only place Shepard could be that wouldn't lead to his assassination and 2) it put him in the right place at the right time. In fact, I wonder if that's a factor in why the chose Earth as a starting point: they were after Shepard.
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Post by copper on Aug 24, 2018 16:05:04 GMT
I also had a hard time caring about the take back Earth campaign Shepard preached throughout the game. It didn't match any of Shepard's possible backgrounds, and Earth had no tactical importance over any other planet that I could see. It just seemed like a way to get new players into the franchise to me. I was much more interested in the outcomes of Palaven, Tuchanka, and Sur'Kesh, all of which I wanted to explore properly.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 24, 2018 16:15:45 GMT
well this is just me, I do think Mass Effect 3 needs to be rebuild from the ground up. Should I start an Project Lazarus for Mass Effect 3?
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 24, 2018 16:18:26 GMT
Phantom I don't think a rebuild of Mass Effect 3 is necessary. It has good moments in it, good gameplay. The only real problems I have with the game are the ending and Earth.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 24, 2018 16:21:50 GMT
dmc1001 More power to you that you were able to form some connection to Earth in this game. What I was trying to point out that for a game where "Take Back Earth" plays a big part, Earth wasn't used to it's full potential from a narrative standpoint.
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Post by Phantom on Aug 24, 2018 16:36:24 GMT
Phantom I don't think a rebuild of Mass Effect 3 is necessary. It has good moments in it, good gameplay. The only real problems I have with the game are the ending and Earth. I love the gameplay for Mass Effect 3 and love many NPCs within Mass effect 3. I would love a boss battle with Harbringer within Mass Effect3
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Aug 24, 2018 17:50:57 GMT
I always wanted to see Earth in the MEU (no, i don't want London)
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 24, 2018 19:26:05 GMT
I would have started ME3 with the absolute destruction of the Citadel, in other words, the pattern of the Reaper attack should have been the same as when they attacked the Protheans This wouldn't have fit with previous Reaper behaviour as the Citadel has always been the one constant between cycles. What always struck me as odd was that no one questions exactly how the Citadel had survived previous encounters and what exactly was running it. That was my big question in ME1 that was never answered in that game and I knew it had to be important in some way. Then Sovereign needing it to start the invasion was also fishy. Clearly other races do not have the enquiring nature of humans because I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to use something without discovering everything there was to know about it. We can scan planets but not the interior of the Citadel? The other problem with the Citadel in ME3 was that the Reapers chose to move it. Why? Every Reaper ship was capable of processing the native civilians of a planet so why did it need to be located over earth? I agree though that whilst you as a player have a familiarity and attachment to earth, Shepard has been given no reason for you to role play that he gives a damn. In a way it is similar to the problem with the kid. We see the real kid only briefly at the beginning, for less time than we see of earth, but for some reason we are meant to care about them both when there has been no cause for an emotional connection. So with both of these aspects you are simply playing a part in a story where someone else has decided how you should feel rather than immersing yourself in it. I had more emotional investment in curing the genophage or resolving the quarian/geth conflict because I had been touched by these aspects throughout all 3 games and my close companions were an integral part of it. I think that was what was missing from earth, even with the knowledge that Anderson was still there. I cared more about saving the Citadel because I had spent time there in all 3 games and it felt more like home than earth did.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 24, 2018 19:38:15 GMT
I would have started ME3 with the absolute destruction of the Citadel, in other words, the pattern of the Reaper attack should have been the same as when they attacked the Protheans This wouldn't have fit with previous Reaper behaviour as the Citadel has always been the one constant between cycles. What always struck me as odd was that no one questions exactly how the Citadel had survived previous encounters and what exactly was running it. That was my big question in ME1 that was never answered in that game and I knew it had to be important in some way. Then Sovereign needing it to start the invasion was also fishy. Clearly other races do not have the enquiring nature of humans because I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to use something without discovering everything there was to know about it. We can scan planets but not the interior of the Citadel? The other problem with the Citadel in ME3 was that the Reapers chose to move it. Why? Every Reaper ship was capable of processing the native civilians of a planet so why did it need to be located over earth? I agree though that whilst you as a player have a familiarity and attachment to earth, Shepard has been given no reason for you to role play that he gives a damn. In a way it is similar to the problem with the kid. We see the real kid only briefly at the beginning, for less time than we see of earth, but for some reason we are meant to care about them both when there has been no cause for an emotional connection. So with both of these aspects you are simply playing a part in a story where someone else has decided how you should feel rather than immersing yourself in it. I had more emotional investment in curing the genophage or resolving the quarian/geth conflict because I had been touched by these aspects throughout all 3 games and my close companions were an integral part of it. I think that was what was missing from earth, even with the knowledge that Anderson was still there. I cared more about saving the Citadel because I had spent time there in all 3 games and it felt more like home than earth did. I agree. As I've tried to say in my original post, a simple fix would have been to extend Shepard's time on Earth so that the player could form some kind of attachment with the place and have a good roleplaying reason to give a damn. It could either be through dream sequences that act as flashbacks to Shepard's time on Earth, or it could be something along the lines of DA:I. In that game, a large chunk of the beginning centers around Haven. It's your first base of operations, many of your companions meet up there, and you often go back to restock on items enough times it feels like a second home. So when the big twist comes and Haven gets taken over, you feel the impact of the event.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 20:13:15 GMT
dmc1001 More power to you that you were able to form some connection to Earth in this game. What I was trying to point out that for a game where "Take Back Earth" plays a big part, Earth wasn't used to it's full potential from a narrative standpoint. Check out this mod for endgame changing of Earth. Nothing for before, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 20:14:59 GMT
I would have started ME3 with the absolute destruction of the Citadel, in other words, the pattern of the Reaper attack should have been the same as when they attacked the Protheans This wouldn't have fit with previous Reaper behaviour as the Citadel has always been the one constant between cycles. What always struck me as odd was that no one questions exactly how the Citadel had survived previous encounters and what exactly was running it. That was my big question in ME1 that was never answered in that game and I knew it had to be important in some way. Then Sovereign needing it to start the invasion was also fishy. Clearly other races do not have the enquiring nature of humans because I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to use something without discovering everything there was to know about it. We can scan planets but not the interior of the Citadel? The other problem with the Citadel in ME3 was that the Reapers chose to move it. Why? Every Reaper ship was capable of processing the native civilians of a planet so why did it need to be located over earth? I agree though that whilst you as a player have a familiarity and attachment to earth, Shepard has been given no reason for you to role play that he gives a damn. In a way it is similar to the problem with the kid. We see the real kid only briefly at the beginning, for less time than we see of earth, but for some reason we are meant to care about them both when there has been no cause for an emotional connection. So with both of these aspects you are simply playing a part in a story where someone else has decided how you should feel rather than immersing yourself in it. I had more emotional investment in curing the genophage or resolving the quarian/geth conflict because I had been touched by these aspects throughout all 3 games and my close companions were an integral part of it. I think that was what was missing from earth, even with the knowledge that Anderson was still there. I cared more about saving the Citadel because I had spent time there in all 3 games and it felt more like home than earth did. Javik clearly indicates that the Reapers hit the Citadel first during his cycle, catching the Protheans off-guard by destroying their center of government. ME1 also clearly indicates that the sentinel reaper (Sovereign) opens the Citadel Mass Relay, which allows the reapers to initiate their harvest right at the Citadel. So, I disagree... the reapers attacking the Citadel first is completely in line with ME lore. One excuse for it being different in the ME3 scenario is that Shepard prevented the Citadel attack by taking down Sovereign. However, I see no reason why, having entered the system by other means, the reapers would not have attacked the Citadel ASAP in ME3 since it still was the principle seat of government for the galaxy.
As far as the Citadel surviving previous encounterw, I believe it was likely that the Keepers repaired it. Their behavior after the attack in ME1 (as described by Anderson in ME2) indicates this. It's not even clear whether or not the keepers were really aware that they were repairing damage not related to a Reaper overthrow of the Citadel but rather that thwarted Reaper attack.
The logic I use for Shepard caring about earth is that Anderson, a good friend and mentor, chooses to stay behind on Earth and essentially orders Shepard to get help for Earth. It is also possible for any Shepard to have become fond of earth while incarcerated their for the 6 months between ME2 and ME3... keeping in mind that, prior to that time, it is unlikely that Shepard had stayed in any other part of the galaxy for a longer period of time (reference conversation in ME1 with Saracino). You're also forgetting that there is one profile where Shepard was born and grew up on Earth (until he/she enlisted at age 18). Now, one of the dialogue options with Ashley can indicate that Shepard was anxious to leave earth, but that dialogue option does not have to be selected. So, it is quite possible to play a Shepard who is very attached to his/her home planet.
(For those continually proposing that Bioware just select a canon ending to ME3 and assuring that there would be no problems if the ending they selected wasn't the one you prefered... keep in mind this situation since it may well be that they ultimately selected a canon background for Shepard of being from earth and, therefore, caring about earth... and people are still griping about it.)
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 20:44:15 GMT
Javik clearly indicates that the Reapers hit the Citadel first during his cycle, catching the Protheans off-guard by destroying their center of government. ME1 also clearly indicates that the sentinel reaper (Sovereign) opens the Citadel Mass Relay, which allows the reapers to initiate their harvest right at the Citadel. So, I disagree... the reapers attacking the Citadel first is completely in line with ME lore. One excuse for it being different in the ME3 scenario is that Shepard prevented the Citadel attack by taking down Sovereign. However, I see no reason why, having entered the system by other means, the reapers would not have attacked the Citadel ASAP in ME3 since it still was the principle seat of government for the galaxy. Agree to a point. That point is when we learn the Citadel is only part of the Catalyst. The Catalyst has control of it. That means whatever Sovereign or the keepers did or didn't do is irrelevant. The entire Battle of the Citadel should never have happened because the Catalyst would have opened the relay and let all the Reapers in. This is a lore inconsistency and one reason why the Catalyst doesn't really work. It's possible that the Catalyst was somehow inactive but the game in no way hints that it's true.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 24, 2018 20:48:39 GMT
The crapalyst doesn't work in ME1 because ME1 never existed. ME3 is the best place to start playing a trilogy. No need to have a 1 and 2 when 3 tells everything the player needs to know.
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Post by N7Pathfinder on Aug 24, 2018 21:50:17 GMT
The crapalyst doesn't work in ME1 because ME1 never existed. ME3 is the best place to start playing a trilogy. No need to have a 1 and 2 when 3 tells everything the player needs to know. <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.1000000000000085px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_62877680" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_20876421" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_87285224" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.1000000000000085" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.1px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 95px;" id="MoatPxIOPT2_47404860" scrolling="no"></iframe> That made no sense.
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