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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Dec 11, 2018 0:54:12 GMT
MODERATOR POST
Either way, this is the Maevaris thread, so if you want to debate this video taking issue with a respected BioWare dev's personal tweets, please take it to another thread (if you really must). This ^
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 11, 2018 0:58:04 GMT
As this discussion is clearly going to continue, I'm going to lift some of the posts above (soon not to be above) into a separate thread so that this may return to the Maevaris discussion.
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Post by Dirk on Dec 11, 2018 0:58:16 GMT
Some lore regarding her most of you already know (sorry for small image):
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 11, 2018 0:59:42 GMT
And not to be redundant, but what my fellow mods said.
Please stay on topic.
I'm on a diet, I just finished my suppert and I am hungry. Just FYI.
So, Maevaris hidden agenda will likely be reform of Tevinter? Any ideas as to how she might go about it? A conspiracy? A cabal? A coup d'etat? A grab for power for herself? Or for someone else?
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Post by 10k on Dec 11, 2018 1:00:16 GMT
My comment wasn't about gender identity or sexual identity per se. I understand that BW has continuously added more diverse character over the games, and they should continue to do so. My problem is when they obviously add these characters solely for the way they identify alone. I want the dark fantasy Origins was. It had racism, oppression, etc...to enhance the reality of the world of Thedas. There was surreal conflict. But with Inquisition and Andromeda it's like they squashed that. There's a reason why there isn't anymore nude desire demon. Because people got offended. BW doesn't want to offend people anymore, which is why toucher subjects in there game aren't discussed, or when they are brought up the player isn't able to disagree with it. You can't even call humans shems anymore. Out of curiosity, are you insinuating that Mae only was added to be trans representation? Given her role as a founder of the Lucerni, whose goal to reform the Tevinter Imperium seems likes it will be at the forefront of the next game, I'm not sure if I'm understanding that stance. Can you help me understand why you feel that way? No I'm not insinuating that, I don't even know much about Mae, but I'm sure she's a great character given she has a thread of her own. I'm saying I wouldn't want her to be added solely because she is trans. I would like her character to be recognized by her motivations, personality, and deeds. Rather than her being trans. This thread is named The first transgender companion from BW. Why is her being trans the key issue here? Why should it matter that she is trans?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 1:08:56 GMT
And not to be redundant, but what my fellow mods said. Please stay on topic. I'm on a diet, I just finished my suppert and I am hungry. Just FYI. So, Maevaris hidden agenda will likely be reform of Tevinter? Any ideas as to how she might go about it? A conspiracy? A cabal? A coup d'etat? A grab for power for herself? Or for someone else?Well, we know that she seeks out the Inquisition's help to erode the Magisterium's support of the Venatori. And then she has to deal with counter-moves against her from other Magisters who don't appreciate her efforts. And we know that she, along with Dorian, found the Lucerni to create a movement within the Magisterium towards reform. So my gut is that she's going to be highly political in motivation. Campaigning for support and putting in motions that will weaken the power of traditionalist Magisters. I'm sure that some will see her as weak, idealistic, etc. And I hope that the game allows us to support her in her work OR work against her if we think that's the best course of action. The series is pretty good about presenting morally gray choices, so I can see this going in this directions as well. Out of curiosity, are you insinuating that Mae only was added to be trans representation? Given her role as a founder of the Lucerni, whose goal to reform the Tevinter Imperium seems likes it will be at the forefront of the next game, I'm not sure if I'm understanding that stance. Can you help me understand why you feel that way? No I'm not insinuating that, I don't even know much about Mae, but I'm sure she's a great character given she has a thread of her own. I'm saying I wouldn't want her to be added solely because she is trans. I would like her character to be recognized by her motivations, personality, and deeds. Rather than her being trans. This thread is named The first transgender companion from BW. Why is her being trans the key issue here? Why should it matter that she is trans? I agree that the name of the thread is problematic because it places "identity politics" at the forefront. I don't believe that she has been added solely because she is trans. Since you aren't terribly familiar with her, I would recommend reading about her on the Dragon Age wiki. She's definitely more than just a "token" character. In fact, in the comic in which she was introduced, her gender identity was only a passing reveal. No words, just an image. It was all later confirmed by the devs in other sources. But it was not done to place her as "the transwoman". Instead, she was presented as a compelling ally to Alistair, Varric, and Isabela. Who happened to be a transwoman. I would not worry that she's only in the series for representation. Although I'm sure that some people will see any trans character as only existing to fulfill that role. My gut is strongly that this doesn't apply to Mae. After you read about her, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.
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Post by bshep on Dec 11, 2018 1:24:26 GMT
@daveliam considering it is Tevinter we are talking about i bet on a lot of assassinations, blackmail and backroom deals happening to secure a position of power. Tevinter policy seems like Orlais but with more blood and less masks.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 11, 2018 1:29:26 GMT
So, Maevaris hidden agenda will likely be reform of Tevinter? Any ideas as to how she might go about it? A conspiracy? A cabal? A coup d'etat? A grab for power for herself? Or for someone else? Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 1:36:08 GMT
I see that we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. We can both choose to vote with our wallet. There are lots of games out there, so I'm sure we'll both be able to find developers who support our beliefs about the medium. I've found one in Bioware and I've thoroughly enjoyed their political stances for over 20 years. I've been a fan of their since Baldur's Gate and I'm sure I'll be around for many more games (provided they get to keep making them). Fair enough. I have no interest in ruining your enjoyment. If Bioware chooses to use their DA / ME games as political soap-boxes I suspect that the future for them will be mostly in Anthem and the like. Personally I think that it's unfortunate that game developers can't appreciate the fact that people want to use video games as a way to get out of the political quagmire for a few hours, not as a way to be informed about the current "woke" hot topics of the day. As you said, art is almost never entirely apolitical, in the past however, writers had more appreciation for subtlety. Look at us! Respectfully agreeing to disagree. I fully expect a statue in our honor to be erected on the still smoking ruins of the inevitably locked gender and politics thread! I fully understand that some people want to use video games to escape politics. But also remember that some people use video games to find their politics (as in representation that they don't see). It's what drew me to Bioware initially. And both stances are perfectly normal and reasonable. There are enough fish in the sea for everyone in this regard! @daveliam considering it is Tevinter we are talking about i bet on a lot of assassinations, blackmail and backroom deals happening to secure a position of power. Tevinter policy seems like Orlais but with more blood and less masks. Totally. Dorian alludes to this. If Mae's in the game (regardless of her role -- major NPC, advisor, or companion), I fully expect a quest to stop (or allow) her assassination. Like Josephine's. Although it would also be kind of cool if instead of actual assassination, it was a political hit. A smear campaign designed to humiliate and delegitimize her movement. And we can either double cross the double crosser OR allow it to happen and watch her Lucerni crumble. We haven't seen a quest like that yet.
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Post by regack on Dec 11, 2018 1:40:49 GMT
Fair enough. I have no interest in ruining your enjoyment. Look at us! Respectfully agreeing to disagree.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 11, 2018 1:40:50 GMT
gangrelbeckett Would you consider asking one of the mods to change the title of the thread so that the emphasis isn't on her trans-ness and it's just the same as any other character thread (Vaea thread, Sera thread, etc.)? Feel like that will cut down on some of the derailing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 1:41:27 GMT
So, Maevaris hidden agenda will likely be reform of Tevinter? Any ideas as to how she might go about it? A conspiracy? A cabal? A coup d'etat? A grab for power for herself? Or for someone else? Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite. If she is an adviser character like I get a feeling, that would make her a nice contrast to Josephine when it comes to our political advisers.
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2018 1:50:55 GMT
So, Maevaris hidden agenda will likely be reform of Tevinter? Any ideas as to how she might go about it? A conspiracy? A cabal? A coup d'etat? A grab for power for herself? Or for someone else? Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite. One of the biggest issues I have with Dorian, and now possibly Mae, is that I don't really know what they mean by "reform." What is it about Tevinter that they hate so much? Dorian doesn't have a problem with slavery, so that's not it. They're both mages, and I haven't seen them express a desire to do away with mage-rule. I assume they both hate blood magic since blood magic is the boogie monster of Thedas (not that there aren't good reasons for that). Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm certain I must have missed something, somewhere.
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 11, 2018 1:58:08 GMT
Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite. One of the biggest issues I have with Dorian, and now possibly Mae, is that I don't really know what they mean by "reform." What is it about Tevinter that they hate so much? Dorian doesn't have a problem with slavery, so that's not it. They're both mages, and I haven't seen them express a desire to do away with mage-rule. I assume they both hate blood magic since blood magic is the boogie monster of Thedas (not that there aren't good reasons for that). Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm certain I must have missed something, somewhere. I can't say for sure, but it seems like their goals might be to stymie the abuse of power, widespread use of blood magic, that sort of thing..? Whereas someone like Calpernia or Solas or Fenris would be working from the bottom up, getting their claws in the disenfranchised and encouraging rebellion and social upheaval that way. Like..... Leliana's Chantry has one kind of reform, whereas Anders has a more... explosive... sort of reform? Sorry, I'm not articulating this very well. We don't know how much Dorian's views on slavery have changed since coming to the South, and we know very little about Mae's views (there's like... one panel in the comics where she seems either disillusioned or resigned), I do think they probably lean towards a Tevinter without slavery, but whether that's their main priority... I doubt it. I'm betting they want a Tevinter that's known for its culture and encouragment of magical talent rather than blood magic/slavery/systemic abuse of power.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 11, 2018 1:58:56 GMT
@daveliam considering it is Tevinter we are talking about i bet on a lot of assassinations, blackmail and backroom deals happening to secure a position of power. Tevinter policy seems like Orlais but with more blood and less masks. I'm not sure about the more blood, but I'm sure the less mask is a positive point in my eyes.
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Dec 11, 2018 1:59:33 GMT
Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite. One of the biggest issues I have with Dorian, and now possibly Mae, is that I don't really know what they mean by "reform." What is it about Tevinter that they hate so much? Dorian doesn't have a problem with slavery, so that's not it. They're both mages, and I haven't seen them express a desire to do away with mage-rule. I assume they both hate blood magic since blood magic is the boogie monster of Thedas (not that there aren't good reasons for that). Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm certain I must have missed something, somewhere. I remember Dorian saying he didn't really tought about slavery until he traveled to the south so maybe he changed idea about it. Also from what it is shown most Tevinter mages seems more interested in personal gains than on the improvement of the whole country or in reviving some centuries old ideal of bloodthristy conquest of Thedas.
Dorian never seemed to like this during his talks with Inquisitor. Furthermore he was against blood magic being used with unwillingly participants (which seems to be the norm on Tevinter).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 2:01:35 GMT
Given what we know about her, I expect a Leliana-esque sense of practicality. She's willing to have people assassinated for the greater good and personal vendettas, but she's very loyal and loving to her friends and co-founding the Lucerni certainly implies she's an agent for change and progress in Tevinter. And I think her ideas (and Dorian's) are going to be the top-down sort... as in, focus on changing policy, bribes, alliances, and rooting out corruption among Tevinter's elite. One of the biggest issues I have with Dorian, and now possibly Mae, is that I don't really know what they mean by "reform." What is it about Tevinter that they hate so much? Dorian doesn't have a problem with slavery, so that's not it. They're both mages, and I haven't seen them express a desire to do away with mage-rule. I assume they both hate blood magic since blood magic is the boogie monster of Thedas (not that there aren't good reasons for that). Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm certain I must have missed something, somewhere. It's a little unclear at this point. And I'm sure that's purposeful from the devs since it's likely to play a pretty heavy role in any game taking place in Tevinter. This allows them flexibility in story telling. But the little that we know is that the Lucerni are, as you stated, against blood magic. They are also in general against corruption, but I suspect that this will be a gray area as some will see Mae's machinations to be a form of corruption as well. The epilogue stated that the Lucerni are dedicated to "restore and redeem" the Imperium and that Dorian becomes a "voice of resistance against corruption" . But that's about all that we know. My gut is that they'll be in favor of democratizing power, empowering non-Magister Tevinters, opening trade and diplomatic support from the southern countries, etc. Typical progressive values and stances. The slave thing is interesting though. You would think that the Lucerni would be against it but Dorian certainly isn't and we get the impression that Mae is okay with it too, since she's from a fabulously wealthy old money family. Maybe that will be an area that we can sway their thoughts?
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Post by Artemis on Dec 11, 2018 2:10:52 GMT
One of the biggest issues I have with Dorian, and now possibly Mae, is that I don't really know what they mean by "reform." What is it about Tevinter that they hate so much? Dorian doesn't have a problem with slavery, so that's not it. They're both mages, and I haven't seen them express a desire to do away with mage-rule. I assume they both hate blood magic since blood magic is the boogie monster of Thedas (not that there aren't good reasons for that). Does anyone have an answer to this? I'm certain I must have missed something, somewhere. It's a little unclear at this point. And I'm sure that's purposeful from the devs since it's likely to play a pretty heavy role in any game taking place in Tevinter. This allows them flexibility in story telling. But the little that we know is that the Lucerni are, as you stated, against blood magic. They are also in general against corruption, but I suspect that this will be a gray area as some will see Mae's machinations to be a form of corruption as well. The epilogue stated that the Lucerni are dedicated to "restore and redeem" the Imperium and that Dorian becomes a "voice of resistance against corruption" . But that's about all that we know. My gut is that they'll be in favor of democratizing power, empowering non-Magister Tevinters, opening trade and diplomatic support from the southern countries, etc. Typical progressive values and stances. The slave thing is interesting though. You would think that the Lucerni would be against it but Dorian certainly isn't and we get the impression that Mae is okay with it too, since she's from a fabulously wealthy old money family. Maybe that will be an area that we can sway their thoughts? Maybe. (And thanks for the responses, everyone else.) I don't personally feel like swaying the thoughts of someone who doesn't intrinsically balk at the notion of slavery. It leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. I could never get over it with Dorian, which is a shame. I guess it's a personal thing. And yeah, against corruption "in general." I mean, what is 'general' corruption? Corruption in my country (US) is tightly connected to corporate wealth. That's a specific example I can understand and see. I guess the problem is, WE don't know anything about Tevinter, other than it's pro-slavery, ruled by crazy mages, and full of blood magic. But we didn't know anything about Orlais, either, before DAI. (And I have to admit, Orlais is not very interesting. It's basically 18th century France. It's like the writers read Dangerous Liaisons and said, oh shit, I just got an idea!)
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Post by talyn82 on Dec 11, 2018 2:56:21 GMT
I have seen this character before in a Dragon Age comic where Varric rescues her. I really don't care if she's transgender all I care about is. Will she be interesting? Her sexual preference and orientation have no weight on this. For example I am a straight male but enjoyed Dorian's friendship and story in DAI. So if she has a good story then I welcome her.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 11, 2018 3:30:42 GMT
I don't know what I think about reforming Tevinter, but I kind of don't want them to succeed in it, but I mean reforming an entire country and culture isn't really a realistic goal to begin with (which makes Dorian's decision to not let a romanced Inquisitor come with him to Tevinter and help him do his thing even MORE annoying, and he dares to say it's only for a little while, and temporary!).
I don't really want BW to neuter Tevinter, and make it less... of a '' aristocrat battleground '' than it already is. Cleaning away all the problematic just makes Tevinter so much less interesting. I loved to hear Dorian talk about Tevinter, I thought to myself wow, I really wanna go there and experience it (in-game, of course). But who gives a damn about Tevinter if it isn't a cesspool of problematic bs? I mean yeah there's tons of great lore about Tevinter beyond slavery and other corruption, but still.
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 11, 2018 7:14:52 GMT
Have them in the game as a romance option. Always wanted to romance a trans.
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Post by Slyvalyth on Dec 11, 2018 7:34:50 GMT
It´s time that Maevaris Tilani gets her own thread. I really would love to see Mae as companion in DA 4.
Also its the perfect opportunity for Bioware. Mae has one big advantage over a new transgender NPC (besides Crem but he could be dead) she is already well-established in the franchise. A new transgender would feel a bit forced but Mae would feel natural. If Bioware have ever considered a transgender companion well it should be Maevaris Tilani.
I agree100%
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 14:17:29 GMT
Have them in the game as a romance option. Always wanted to romance a trans. I'm going to assume best intentions here. Just a friendly piece of advice that "a trans" is weirdly worded. "Trans" (as in transgender) is an adjective to describe the person. It would be like saying "I always wanted to romance a tall" or "I always wanted to romance a funny". So you could say "I always wanted to romance a transwoman" or "I always wanted to romance a trans person".
That being said, I'm a bit torn on having Mae as a romance character, personally. While I would like to see her get the attention that a romanceable character gets, I also am concerned that her romance arc would stray into Carth Syndrome territory. Based on the comics, where her Fade Dream has her living out a life with her dead husband, it seems like her love for Thorold is pretty solid and she might not be "over it". That's something that I always find weird about characters with dead significant others (Jaheira, Carth, Sky, Steve, Aveline, etc.) is that their arc is always about "moving on". It would be nice to see a character who is just not interested in "moving on". Although, I suppose that we did kind of get that with Jolee. Are there any other "widows/widowers" who just didn't want to "move on"?
I suppose that they could get around that by just having her acknowledge that Thorold is dead and then state that she's come to terms with it and is ready to find love with someone else. Then her romance arc could be about something other than her dead husband.
What would you want to see in her romance arc?
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 11, 2018 16:41:32 GMT
This may be a controversial point best for another thread.
But I could see a benefit to DA4 romances being left to be discovered in the game rather than being painfully revealed over the months pre-launch.
BioWare has said that they wanted to highlight LGBT content in the past so that people would know it's there. That's fair, but then just say it's there and leave the joy of discovery of who and how in-game.
That also side-steps some of the shitshow from the underbelly of the internet raging against the 'fact' of a character's orientation without actually knowing the character.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 11, 2018 16:47:14 GMT
This may be a controversial point best for another thread. But I could see a benefit to DA4 romances being left to be discovered in the game rather than being painfully revealed over the months pre-launch. BioWare has said that they wanted to highlight LGBT content in the past so that people would know it's there. That's fair, but then just say it's there and leave the joy of discovery of who and how in-game. That also side-steps some of the shitshow from the underbelly of the internet raging against the 'fact' of a character's orientation without actually knowing the character. Oh, please no. I want, nay, need to know that kind of thing about the romances. I don't have that many options, and I don't want to play the game for hours and hours only to then learn that the romance I chose does things like force a sex scene on me so either endure that or go back several hours to try again with someone else who may be the same situation.
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