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Post by sloth on Jun 26, 2024 4:23:51 GMT
It's been ages since I've played, so I couldn't remember why I disliked them beyond their killing for money. If one or more of their houses are involved in slavery, that would do it. There's no way I can replay the games before DA:TV releases, so I'm sure I'll refresh and fill in gaps via the wiki. From the wiki: The Antivan Crows often buy orphaned or enslaved elves and humans when they are children and force them to live together in tight quarters. The only way they can survive the brutal process and prove themselves worthy is by surviving every test the Crows throw at them, including killing their peers.It’s how Zevran became a Crow. really hoping that the dialogues and decisions in the game allow us to play as a Crow that despises and hates the faction, that would be interesting
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 4:25:18 GMT
From the wiki: The Antivan Crows often buy orphaned or enslaved elves and humans when they are children and force them to live together in tight quarters. The only way they can survive the brutal process and prove themselves worthy is by surviving every test the Crows throw at them, including killing their peers.It’s how Zevran became a Crow. really hoping that the dialogues and decisions in the game allow us to play as a Crow that despises and hates the faction, that would be interesting It would almost have to be for all the factions.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 26, 2024 5:22:34 GMT
really hoping that the dialogues and decisions in the game allow us to play as a Crow that despises and hates the faction, that would be interesting It would almost have to be for all the factions. I think the Lords of Fortune, Shadow Dragons and Veil Jumpers only take volunteers, but Wardens could be conscripts and Crows outright buy people as slaves. Mourn Watch is an interesting one, since when the Circles were intact all Mages in Nevarra had to join the Mortalitasi whether they liked it or not. We don't really know what the situation is there eight years after Trespasser, and the Mourn Watch are an elite within the Mortalitasi anyway. I don't think they'd have any reason or power to force Rogues or Warriors to work for them, either.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 5:30:19 GMT
It would almost have to be for all the factions. I think the Lords of Fortune, Shadow Dragons and Veil Jumpers only take volunteers, but Wardens could be conscripts and Crows outright buy people as slaves. Mourn Watch is an interesting one, since when the Circles were intact all Mages in Nevarra had to join the Mortalitasi whether they liked it or not. We don't really know what the situation is there eight years after Trespasser, and the Mourn Watch are an elite within the Mortalitasi anyway. I don't think they'd have any reason or power to force Rogues or Warriors to work for them, either. Was talking about in our character in finding ways to disagree with them. You are right though its tough to know because we virtually know next to nothing about the Shadow Dragons or Veil Jumpers, for instance, and the SDs at least present as a very high minded faction. However it could be revealed that they may not always use the best tactics and even if their goals are good they still have internal issues within the organization which allows them to be too zealous in fighting their goals.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 26, 2024 6:03:44 GMT
the game has faction reputation I wonder if that will work similar to Greedfall where you have an approval level with each faction that can increase/decrease based on your choices throughout the game I haven't played Greedfall but I have played both Pillars of Eternity games, so I'm curious if it's something like that, where you have a few factions you can interact with and do work for. They are either allies or antagonistic to each other or operate neutrally but, as you do quests for them, eventually you end up in a situation where you're seen as a close ally of one or more of them and their rivals will refuse to work with you and be antagonistic towards you as a result. In some story points, you get to call upon allies to help and, depending on who you're buddies with, you get different people showing up in the first game, while the second game is built more around the factions and your influence on them so this can change how you reach the end game, who is actively trying to stop you from achieving your goals and who supports you, and what the state of the Deadfire Archipelago is depending on which faction and leaders within said faction you backed.
And that's my main gripe about this mechanic including BG3. Any choice you make will get approval from one or two and disapproval from another two or three and neutral from others. From my understanding of what Corrine said, some choices presented to the protagonist will have some serious after effects with some crew members.... and done deliberately on top of that.
Look, I expect as the team leader to concentrate on mission objectives and not to also baby sit some hurt feelings from the squad. Egads, must I now also be a psychologist? Way I read it from the article, while your companions are part of the factions, they're not the de facto representatives. You interact with people within the factions themselves who are the representatives and hold the faction interests more important than your companions. The companions are already at your side and, while they might want you to help their respective faction, their presence alongside Rook shows their commitment to the overall conflict, instead of short term faction interest. "He [Epler] says BioWare wanted to avoid the trope of needing to gather 200 random resources or objects before helping you save the world. Instead, the team aimed to create factions that want to help you but have realistic challenges and problems in front of them so that narratively, it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes."
I hate that MMOs have poisoned the idea of factions so much that devs need to constantly disclaimer in a singleplayer game that gaining influence with people in power doesn't amount to doing a daily grind and it's actually tied to the story. This sounds to me like doing the major quests in Origins where, sure, you had to do everyone's dirty laundry, but that dirty laundry really needed tidying up first before going off to war. Redcliffe was constantly attacked by undead and Eamon was dying, while the Dalish clan was under siege by werewolves. If you left like Sten and Morrigan wanted, you didn't waste time, sure, but you also had nothing to help in the overall conflict and just hoped you would stumble upon other ways to get armies, instead of acting on intelligence you already had. You might not have been guaranteed to get the help you needed if you stayed to help but were certainly guaranteed to have nothing if you just left, so may as well see how it worked out. Going to the Circle was the same, you wanted mages but they went and filled the tower with abominations so you asked for the templars. The templars would help but they couldn't just leave an entire tower of abominations alone to go off to war and hope that none escaped in the meanwhile. The only frustrating portion was Orzammar but I would say that was the point, Orzammar's politics are Orzammar's worst enemy, shown in both dwarf origins, too, but you put up with it because dwarves were still the most experienced soldiers in fighting darkspawn and their knowledge and presence would help not just in tactics but also in morale.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 6:18:46 GMT
I wonder if that will work similar to Greedfall where you have an approval level with each faction that can increase/decrease based on your choices throughout the game I haven't played Greedfall but I have played both Pillars of Eternity games, so I'm curious if it's something like that, where you have a few factions you can interact with and do work for. They are either allies or antagonistic to each other or operate neutrally but, as you do quests for them, eventually you end up in a situation where you're seen as a close ally of one or more of them and their rivals will refuse to work with you and be antagonistic towards you as a result. In some story points, you get to call upon allies to help and, depending on who you're buddies with, you get different people showing up in the first game, while the second game is built more around the factions and your influence on them so this can change how you reach the end game, who is actively trying to stop you from achieving your goals and who supports you, and what the state of the Deadfire Archipelago is depending on which faction and leaders within said faction you backed.
And that's my main gripe about this mechanic including BG3. Any choice you make will get approval from one or two and disapproval from another two or three and neutral from others. From my understanding of what Corrine said, some choices presented to the protagonist will have some serious after effects with some crew members.... and done deliberately on top of that.
Look, I expect as the team leader to concentrate on mission objectives and not to also baby sit some hurt feelings from the squad. Egads, must I now also be a psychologist? Way I read it from the article, while your companions are part of the factions, they're not the de facto representatives. You interact with people within the factions themselves who are the representatives and hold the faction interests more important than your companions. The companions are already at your side and, while they might want you to help their respective faction, their presence alongside Rook shows their commitment to the overall conflict, instead of short term faction interest. "He [Epler] says BioWare wanted to avoid the trope of needing to gather 200 random resources or objects before helping you save the world. Instead, the team aimed to create factions that want to help you but have realistic challenges and problems in front of them so that narratively, it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes."
I hate that MMOs have poisoned the idea of factions so much that devs need to constantly disclaimer in a singleplayer game that gaining influence with people in power doesn't amount to doing a daily grind and it's actually tied to the story. This sounds to me like doing the major quests in Origins where, sure, you had to do everyone's dirty laundry, but that dirty laundry really needed tidying up first before going off to war. Redcliffe was constantly attacked by undead and Eamon was dying, while the Dalish clan was under siege by werewolves. If you left like Sten and Morrigan wanted, you didn't waste time, sure, but you also had nothing to help in the overall conflict and just hoped you would stumble upon other ways to get armies, instead of acting on intelligence you already had. You might not have been guaranteed to get the help you needed if you stayed to help but were certainly guaranteed to have nothing if you just left, so may as well see how it worked out. Going to the Circle was the same, you wanted mages but they went and filled the tower with abominations so you asked for the templars. The templars would help but they couldn't just leave an entire tower of abominations alone to go off to war and hope that none escaped in the meanwhile. The only frustrating portion was Orzammar but I would say that was the point, Orzammar's politics are Orzammar's worst enemy, shown in both dwarf origins, too, but you put up with it because dwarves were still the most experienced soldiers in fighting darkspawn and their knowledge and presence would help not just in tactics but also in morale. yeah this was another really good sign hearing them talk about things like this.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 26, 2024 6:32:00 GMT
So we're Shepard collecting Galactic Readiness points? I have yet to play a game where this gathering allies for the big showdown setup wasn't rewarding. Loved it in Horizon Zero Dawn, loved it in BG3. It's just good tried and true heroic storytelling. So this sounds good to me.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 26, 2024 6:55:24 GMT
I think the Lords of Fortune, Shadow Dragons and Veil Jumpers only take volunteers, but Wardens could be conscripts and Crows outright buy people as slaves. Mourn Watch is an interesting one, since when the Circles were intact all Mages in Nevarra had to join the Mortalitasi whether they liked it or not. We don't really know what the situation is there eight years after Trespasser, and the Mourn Watch are an elite within the Mortalitasi anyway. I don't think they'd have any reason or power to force Rogues or Warriors to work for them, either. Was talking about in our character in finding ways to disagree with them. Oh, right! Yeah, we should definitely be able to disagree with any faction for roleplaying reasons even if we have to work with them in some capacity. Yeah, I can definitely see some Shadow Dragons being willing to burn down Tevinter to free the slaves (and fair enough, frankly.) We've had some hints about splits within some of the other factions already, so I wonder if we'll have some choices there too. For example we know that there's no clear line of succession for First Talon - I wonder if Lucanis thought he could solve that by pretending to be dead so Caterina would have to pick his cousin? If so it's about to come back and bite him since he probably can't avoid meeting other Crows if he's hanging out with us. Don't think the new beard will fool his relatives .
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 6:59:26 GMT
Was talking about in our character in finding ways to disagree with them. Oh, right! Yeah, we should definitely be able to disagree with any faction for roleplaying reasons even if we have to work with them in some capacity. Yeah, I can definitely see some Shadow Dragons being willing to burn down Tevinter to free the slaves (and fair enough, frankly.) We've had some hints about splits within some of the other factions already, so I wonder if we'll have some choices there too. For example we know that there's no clear line of succession for First Talon - I wonder if Lucanis thought he could solve that by pretending to be dead so Caterina would have to pick his cousin? If so it's about to come back and bite him since he probably can't avoid meeting other Crows if he's hanging out with us. Don't think the new beard will fool his relatives . This does raise an interesting point. Like we know, or at least has been heaavily implied, that we will have a fourth companion with us for story missions. We've already seen it with Varric and I imagine this is how the Inquisitor will come up with the story. So what about a situation like with Lucanis where he should be really involved with something like being with the Crows and they might need to be there...will they just pop up in a cutscene or something? Like maybe he can get out of interacting with any of the other Crows if we don't bring him along.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 26, 2024 7:05:17 GMT
Like maybe he can get out of interacting with any of the other Crows if we don't bring him along. I would find it hilarious if he acted like Isabela does whenever you go near the Qunari compound. 'Oh, go see the Crows? Uh, you should go without me, I really have to get dinner started! See you later!' There is some precedent, in that you can go ages without finding out Alistair is heir to the Fereldan throne if you don't take him to Redcliffe with you.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 26, 2024 7:26:54 GMT
"He [Epler] says BioWare wanted to avoid the trope of needing to gather 200 random resources or objects before helping you save the world. Instead, the team aimed to create factions that want to help you but have realistic challenges and problems in front of them so that narratively, it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes."
I hate that MMOs have poisoned the idea of factions so much that devs need to constantly disclaimer in a singleplayer game that gaining influence with people in power doesn't amount to doing a daily grind and it's actually tied to the story. This sounds to me like doing the major quests in Origins where, sure, you had to do everyone's dirty laundry, but that dirty laundry really needed tidying up first before going off to war. Redcliffe was constantly attacked by undead and Eamon was dying, while the Dalish clan was under siege by werewolves. If you left like Sten and Morrigan wanted, you didn't waste time, sure, but you also had nothing to help in the overall conflict and just hoped you would stumble upon other ways to get armies, instead of acting on intelligence you already had. You might not have been guaranteed to get the help you needed if you stayed to help but were certainly guaranteed to have nothing if you just left, so may as well see how it worked out. Going to the Circle was the same, you wanted mages but they went and filled the tower with abominations so you asked for the templars. The templars would help but they couldn't just leave an entire tower of abominations alone to go off to war and hope that none escaped in the meanwhile. The only frustrating portion was Orzammar but I would say that was the point, Orzammar's politics are Orzammar's worst enemy, shown in both dwarf origins, too, but you put up with it because dwarves were still the most experienced soldiers in fighting darkspawn and their knowledge and presence would help not just in tactics but also in morale. If it's like origins that's fine .(ie i can screw over the shadow dragons like you could the dalish & still proceed with the main mission with or without another tevinter faction). Otherwise its just atrocious from a roleplaying point of view.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 7:31:48 GMT
"He [Epler] says BioWare wanted to avoid the trope of needing to gather 200 random resources or objects before helping you save the world. Instead, the team aimed to create factions that want to help you but have realistic challenges and problems in front of them so that narratively, it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes."
I hate that MMOs have poisoned the idea of factions so much that devs need to constantly disclaimer in a singleplayer game that gaining influence with people in power doesn't amount to doing a daily grind and it's actually tied to the story. This sounds to me like doing the major quests in Origins where, sure, you had to do everyone's dirty laundry, but that dirty laundry really needed tidying up first before going off to war. Redcliffe was constantly attacked by undead and Eamon was dying, while the Dalish clan was under siege by werewolves. If you left like Sten and Morrigan wanted, you didn't waste time, sure, but you also had nothing to help in the overall conflict and just hoped you would stumble upon other ways to get armies, instead of acting on intelligence you already had. You might not have been guaranteed to get the help you needed if you stayed to help but were certainly guaranteed to have nothing if you just left, so may as well see how it worked out. Going to the Circle was the same, you wanted mages but they went and filled the tower with abominations so you asked for the templars. The templars would help but they couldn't just leave an entire tower of abominations alone to go off to war and hope that none escaped in the meanwhile. The only frustrating portion was Orzammar but I would say that was the point, Orzammar's politics are Orzammar's worst enemy, shown in both dwarf origins, too, but you put up with it because dwarves were still the most experienced soldiers in fighting darkspawn and their knowledge and presence would help not just in tactics but also in morale. If it's like origins that's fine .(ie i can screw over the shadow dragons like you could the dalish & still proceed with the main mission with or without another tevinter faction). Otherwise its just atrocious from a roleplaying point of view. how?
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 26, 2024 7:40:54 GMT
the game has faction reputation I wonder if that will work similar to Greedfall where you have an approval level with each faction that can increase/decrease based on your choices throughout the game That would be so cool. I loved that system or somethink similar.
Edit: Also Solasta: Crown of the Magister have a similar Sytem. Love that too.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 26, 2024 7:43:22 GMT
If it's like origins that's fine .(ie i can screw over the shadow dragons like you could the dalish & still proceed with the main mission with or without another tevinter faction). Otherwise its just atrocious from a roleplaying point of view. how? How doesn't it? Would people have been thrilled if they were only allowed to play characters who supported werewolves in slaughtering dalish?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 26, 2024 7:48:32 GMT
How doesn't it? Would people have been thrilled if they were only allowed to play characters who supported werewolves in slaughtering dalish? But since we're reasonably sure that won't happen at this point trying to wrap my head around the specifics of your criticism.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 26, 2024 8:01:21 GMT
How doesn't it? Would people have been thrilled if they were only allowed to play characters who supported werewolves in slaughtering dalish? But since we're reasonably sure that won't happen at this point trying to wrap my head around the specifics of your criticism. Are we reasonably sure we'll have options? Epler's comment might imply the opposite "it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes."
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 26, 2024 8:08:50 GMT
I never understood why I'd need the help of people who can't fix problems that I can fix with three (now two) companions with a problem that I supposedly can't fix with said companions. Or, to pick DAO's Redcliffe as an example: what good is the help of people that can't deal with a bunch of undead that I slapped down with 4 people against a massive darkspawn army? Here's five darkspawn for you to fight, thanks for your help? Want me to leave one of my companions with you to make sure at least one competent guy is around?
Wait, wasn't that how it worked in Origins? Your party did all the hard work anyway and all those allied armies were just a nice show and window dressing. Could have saved myself all that effort and just done a quick early strike at the enemy (and shortened the game to about seven hours in the process, so that's your real reason there). Most of the time I forgot to call in those NPC support troops anyway.
I really hope they do that part of the game ("Yes it's the end of the world, yes that means it concerns you too... wait what? You have better things to do unless I help you out first?") better this time.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 26, 2024 8:11:21 GMT
But since we're reasonably sure that won't happen at this point trying to wrap my head around the specifics of your criticism. Are we reasonably sure we'll have options? Epler's comment might imply the opposite "it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes." I mean, there were some situations in Origins where you had to help people or the game simply wouldn't let you advance. You have to tromp all over Ferelden getting the Sacred Ashes and cure Arl Eamon. You have to rescue Anora from Howe. It doesn't matter if your Warden is - for instance - a city elf who hates all human nobility on principle.
I'm hoping we'll get choices about which factions we give our support to and how, but it would hardly be unprecedented for the series to make some alliances compulsory.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 26, 2024 8:16:49 GMT
I never understood why I'd need the help of people who can't fix problems that I can fix with three (now two) companions with a problem that I supposedly can't fix with said companions. Or, to pick DAO's Redcliffe as an example: what good is the help of people that can't deal with a bunch of undead that I slapped down with 4 people against a massive darkspawn army? Here's five darkspawn for you to fight, thanks for your help? Want me to leave one of my companions with you to make sure at least one competent guy is around? Wait, wasn't that how it worked in Origins? Your party did all the hard work anyway and all those allied armies were just a nice show and window dressing. Could have saved myself all that effort and just done a quick early strike at the enemy (and shortened the game to about seven hours in the process, so that's your real reason there). Most of the time I forgot to call in those NPC support troops anyway. I really hope they do that part of the game ("Yes it's the end of the world, yes that means it concerns you too... wait what? You have better things to do unless I help you out first?") better this time. If we take Redcliffe as exemple. You don't need Redcliffes army, but you need the voice of arl Emon. I think it goes the same way in DA:TV.
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Post by fairdragon on Jun 26, 2024 8:23:17 GMT
But since we're reasonably sure that won't happen at this point trying to wrap my head around the specifics of your criticism. Are we reasonably sure we'll have options? Epler's comment might imply the opposite "it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes." I think we will have options. They want to go for some parts back to the older games. "It make sense" have to be also roleplay wise. And it wouldn't make sense to support slavery with a character that hate slavery, unless they give us a really good explanation.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 26, 2024 8:54:30 GMT
Are we reasonably sure we'll have options? Epler's comment might imply the opposite "it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes." I mean, there were some situations in Origins where you had to help people or the game simply wouldn't let you advance. You have to tromp all over Ferelden getting the Sacred Ashes and cure Arl Eamon. You have to rescue Anora from Howe. It doesn't matter if your Warden is - for instance - a city elf who hates all human nobility on principle.
I'm hoping we'll get choices about which factions we give our support to and how, but it would hardly be unprecedented for the series to make some alliances compulsory.
Bio did say that DA4 is mission oriented and linear. Game progression then means achieving mission success. I conclude the game will force us to make unwilling choices to obtain said objectives. The trick is whether the game allows us to navigate (ie: give us choices) between factions to avoid being put on their shit list. Frankly i'm of the opinion the game is designed to deliberately put us in untenable positions ... force us to choose when we desperately need another way out.
BG3's game design is to give the player two ways to achieve something. DA:V, what do you have 4 me?
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Post by Gileadan on Jun 26, 2024 9:07:07 GMT
I never understood why I'd need the help of people who can't fix problems that I can fix with three (now two) companions with a problem that I supposedly can't fix with said companions. Or, to pick DAO's Redcliffe as an example: what good is the help of people that can't deal with a bunch of undead that I slapped down with 4 people against a massive darkspawn army? Here's five darkspawn for you to fight, thanks for your help? Want me to leave one of my companions with you to make sure at least one competent guy is around? Wait, wasn't that how it worked in Origins? Your party did all the hard work anyway and all those allied armies were just a nice show and window dressing. Could have saved myself all that effort and just done a quick early strike at the enemy (and shortened the game to about seven hours in the process, so that's your real reason there). Most of the time I forgot to call in those NPC support troops anyway. I really hope they do that part of the game ("Yes it's the end of the world, yes that means it concerns you too... wait what? You have better things to do unless I help you out first?") better this time. If we take Redcliffe as exemple. You don't need Redcliffes army, but you need the voice of arl Emon. I think it goes the same way in DA:TV.
What for if I do all the fighting on my own in the end anyway?
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 26, 2024 9:08:22 GMT
Are we reasonably sure we'll have options? Epler's comment might imply the opposite "it makes sense why you help them in return for their help when the time comes." I think we will have options. They want to go for some parts back to the older games. "It make sense" have to be also roleplay wise. And it wouldn't make sense to support slavery with a character that hate slavery, unless they give us a really good explanation.
That's the point. Game designers want to give us emotional choices. Actually, force us to make some moral choices. Sometimes I feel this is a game with SIM like qualities.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 26, 2024 9:45:10 GMT
I wonder if that will work similar to Greedfall where you have an approval level with each faction that can increase/decrease based on your choices throughout the game That would be so cool. I loved that system or somethink similar.
Edit: Also Solasta: Crown of the Magister have a similar Sytem. Love that too.
What did frustrate me in Solasta was being locked out of gear/crafting materials because the ways of improving your standards were limited and I had to "specialize" in one faction to get the high tier things. Hope it's not like that in DAV, I want all the good stuff! (I adore Solasta for what it is though, had a lot of fun with it!).
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 26, 2024 10:06:14 GMT
(I adore Solasta for what it is though, had a lot of fun with it!). It's such an underrated gem of a game, and I'm really looking forward to whatever Tactical Adventures does next. Crossing my fingers that they've made some money they can invest in writing, voice acting and character models because that stuff was a bit janky but the gameplay is impeccable. Frankly does a better job of 'Fifth Edition but put it in a computer' than BG3 does.
Uh, anyway, yes, I hope we don't have to go all in with a faction in Veilguard because in CoM I had the highest reputation with people who had basically nothing my party could use .
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