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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 17, 2019 22:30:53 GMT
Tea, kinda loaded and unfair to publicly call someone here out on behavior that has not actually occurred here, if you aren't gonna show the actual quotes you are referencing. It just leaves the rest of us to make assumptions on hearsay and insinuation rather than the actual behavior. The reason I addressed it was because what happened on twitter was directly referenced here and became part of the discussion. Fair. My point was you didn't provide the quote you were talking about, and neither did any previous posts, so to someone who doesn't go on twitter (me) it just kinda came out of left field. Also, I'm just naturally leery of agreeing that someone has been rude/bad/whatever on social media without seeing the actual quote so I can decide for myself. Nothing personal intended there.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 17, 2019 22:55:16 GMT
The reason I addressed it was because what happened on twitter was directly referenced here and became part of the discussion. I'll take the responsibility and the blame for that. It's OK, I think this was something that would happen anyway since the fact that that particular dev not having great time with GoW was brought earlier and began a discussion. I think we can generally agree that regardless of our personal feelings on God Of War or what we think about that particular developer not enjoying GoW it is not a sufficient reason to go after them or dismiss the upcoming game because they happen to be part of a team working on it.
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Post by thats1evildude on Mar 17, 2019 23:29:22 GMT
Doesn’t fix what you’ve done. I didn't intend it as an apology. I just didn't want to discuss this matter anymore with her or any of you.
To see such disgust displayed for such a strong single-player narrative like God of War 4 made me realize how this developer has changed. My hope for this series is gone. But there's no point in dwelling on it.
I will not respond to further posts in this thread. Good day.
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 17, 2019 23:51:03 GMT
You are misconstruing her point. It's one I also disagree with, but that doesn't mean it'll have any impact on the quality of the game, much less the narrative.
But very well. Think as you please, but if DA4 fails in any manner, it won't be because an UX designer didn't enjoy Kratos' character.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 17, 2019 23:57:15 GMT
Doesn’t fix what you’ve done. I didn't intend it as an apology. I just didn't want to discuss this matter anymore with her or any of you.
To see such disgust displayed for such a strong single-player narrative like God of War 4 made me realize how this developer has changed. My hope for this series is gone. But there's no point in dwelling on it.
I will not respond to further posts in this thread. Good day.
Oh no, somebody doesn't like a game you like. The horror! Clearly there is something wrong with them as a person since stuff like this isn't subjective in the slightest.
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Post by apollexander on Mar 18, 2019 2:49:54 GMT
Hey guys, I think the point is that the devs are playing GoW 'for work', indicating that some director-guys have realized there is some magic in GoW, and they want to learn from it. And GoW doesn't need to be perfect for anyone. Not a bad thing, I guess?
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 18, 2019 3:36:51 GMT
Hey guys, I think the point is that the devs are playing GoW 'for work', indicating that some director-guys have realized there is some magic in GoW, and they want to learn from it. And GoW doesn't need to be perfect for anyone. Not a bad thing, I guess? Yep, I think that's the think we should focus on  Anyway, John Epler played GoW fairly recently and he said he's loving every bit of it, in case someone wondered.
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Post by apollexander on Mar 18, 2019 4:42:12 GMT
Hey guys, I think the point is that the devs are playing GoW 'for work', indicating that some director-guys have realized there is some magic in GoW, and they want to learn from it. And GoW doesn't need to be perfect for anyone. Not a bad thing, I guess? Yep, I think that's the think we should focus on Anyway, I think John Epler played GoW fairly recently and he said he's loving every bit of it, in case someone wondered. And I remember that Luke in this thread once talked about the idea of mounts in DAI coming from an important guy who thought Skyrim has mounts, and then he mentioned GoW being a possible case. Here: They skipped on the part of recurrent spending which is mostly a MP thing only a few SP games have microtransactions/lootboxes, so buying a game isn't the only factor. Not to mention the paradox they just presented: Buying Anthem = more MP games. Not buying Anthem = studio closing, meaning we can't buy the upcoming SP game.  There is currently no new SP game available for purchase from BW. I will preface this by pointing out that I'm obviously biased given my position but: The takeaway I got from that was if you buy SP games anywhere it will influence the market as a whole, doesn't have to be specifically a Bioware/EA game. As an anecdote, one of the only reasons there are mounts in DAI is because Skyrim had mounts and someone from up-high thought we therefore needed them - a lot of designs had to be bent to account for this not to mention extra animation time that could have went elsewhere  . Not to mention, a common problem in the industry, especially when there isn't a clear vision for a product is 'last-game-itis' where you jam in features from a game you recently played because it felt good in that context. As an educated guess, I imagine that most game designers have probably played the new God of War and Spider-Man games and so you'll probably see a lot of those cinematic kill animations in just about every action game for the next 3+ years.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 18, 2019 6:09:13 GMT
Eww God of War.  |
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Post by Fredward on Mar 18, 2019 7:09:28 GMT
She's a) a single person among a very much larger team 2) a UX designer (ie nothing to do with story) and c) having to play a game for work she's already acknowledged she's not the audience for. I haven't played GoW so I can't comment on the gameplay related critiques and I don't agree with the angle of the more sociological stuff (the fact that Kratos, the god of war, perpetuates toxic masculinity in his son is not. at. all. surprising and probably more of an intentional feature than a bug, you could say that this sort of narrative just shouldn't exist anymore but I would disagree on that as well. Vehemently). But taking her perspective and scolding her as if she's somehow by necessity representative of the broader/all opinions over there sure is a take.  |
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Twitter Guru
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More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
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Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Mar 18, 2019 15:52:19 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc
Yet another desk move over the weekend. I need to just put wheels on my desk.
David Gaider➡️GDC @davidgaider
But think of the synergy, John.
John Epler @eplerjc
Somehow I have a different mouse post-move than I did pre-move and I'm scared.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 18, 2019 20:07:31 GMT
the fact that Kratos, the god of war, perpetuates toxic masculinity in his son is not. at. all. surprising Fie, I say! Fie! (or :PPPPfftbbbb! in modern parlance.)
Seriously though, half the point of the game is that Kratos has flaws, as Atreus does also have actual weaknesses, and they reach a healthy equilibrium together. Its actually quite a lovely relationship when you take into account the whole story. But you do have to watch the *whole* story. And also not consider stoicism, ie mastery over one's self and one's emotions, as something toxic, I suppose. Cus that's what Kratos is trying to instill in Atreus, even as he fails at it himself. (I doubt you will, but if you ever care to just watch an LP of it, I'd recommend Jesse Cox.)
She's a) a single person among a very much larger team 2) a UX designer (ie nothing to do with story) and c) having to play a game for work she's already acknowledged she's not the audience for. (...) But taking her perspective and scolding her as if she's somehow by necessity representative of the broader/all opinions over there sure is a take. I agree with this sentiment, though. 
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 18, 2019 20:45:44 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcYet another desk move over the weekend. I need to just put wheels on my desk. David Gaider➡️GDC @davidgaiderBut think of the synergy, John. John Epler @eplerjcSomehow I have a different mouse post-move than I did pre-move and I'm scared.
Hm...
Is this the first studio move from active Anthem support to a caretaker role?
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Post by Fredward on Mar 18, 2019 20:51:04 GMT
the fact that Kratos, the god of war, perpetuates toxic masculinity in his son is not. at. all. surprising Fie, I say! Fie! (or :PPPPfftbbbb! in modern parlance.) Seriously though, half the point of the game is that Kratos has flaws, as Atreus does also have actual weaknesses, and they reach a healthy equilibrium together. Its actually quite a lovely relationship when you take into account the whole story. But you do have to watch the *whole* story. And also not consider stoicism, ie mastery over one's self and one's emotions, as something toxic, I suppose. Cus that's what Kratos is trying to instill in Atreus, even as he fails at it himself. (I doubt you will, but if you ever care to just watch an LP of it, I'd recommend Jesse Cox.) You are correct in assuming I'm not going to watch it (not for loaded political reasons or w/e I just don't care about GoW at aaaaalllllll) but yeah what you're saying is totally fine and fair and more or less in line with what I assumed would be a nuanced counter-read to what she has to say would entail. And I don't really care about which particular philosophy/coping methods Kratos is or is not instilling Atreus with, that was more comment towards the idea that depicting the god of war being a flawed (though still layered, nuanced and etc) in a way that could be read as toxic masculinity just makes a whole lot more sense, from an expected character tone perspective, than woke millennial WASP dad that's presumably implicitly being offered up as an alternative in the tweets.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
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Post by Hrungr on Mar 19, 2019 0:47:40 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc
My next GDC talk will be titled 'Being An Introvert Whose Job Is 90% Meetings - How To Stare Blankly Into The Void In The Evenings'.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Mar 19, 2019 2:45:54 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcYet another desk move over the weekend. I need to just put wheels on my desk. David Gaider➡️GDC @davidgaiderBut think of the synergy, John. John Epler @eplerjcSomehow I have a different mouse post-move than I did pre-move and I'm scared.
Hm...
Is this the first studio move from active Anthem support to a caretaker role?
No... Epler's been on Dragon Age for quite a while. My understanding from chatting with a BioWare dev is that management frequently shuffles individuals around to different workspaces for some arcane reason.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Mar 19, 2019 2:51:37 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc
Should go without saying, but - folks, devs are allowed to like and dislike games based on their own preferences. Going after someone for not liking a specific title is not cool. Game dev is also a collaborative process that relies on those varied perspectives.
I personally think that games made and planned only by people who are in lockstep about popular releases would be incredibly boring and samey!
Don't be shitty on Twitter! Devs posting on here is not actually part of our official jobs, and if you want our feeds to either A) stop existing or B ) become incredibly bland and boring, that's how you get it.
Also, our personal likes and dislikes are not some arcane tome from which you can glean the choicest secrets about what our games are going to be like. Not everything is about work.
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Post by river82 on Mar 19, 2019 2:55:03 GMT
One of the developers didn't like God of War? Good. It showcased poor RPG design (how many experience points did you have at the end? Good thing we have plenty of places to spend it) poor weapon variety, poor sidequests, invisible walls and many other problems. Oh, and no meaningful choices.
I didn't like it either *still waiting for computer so I can load up ESO*
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Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2019 3:11:33 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcShould go without saying, but - folks, devs are allowed to like and dislike games based on their own preferences. Going after someone for not liking a specific title is not cool. Game dev is also a collaborative process that relies on those varied perspectives. I personally think that games made and planned only by people who are in lockstep about popular releases would be incredibly boring and samey! Don't be shitty on Twitter! Devs posting on here is not actually part of our official jobs, and if you want our feeds to either A) stop existing or B ) become incredibly bland and boring, that's how you get it. Also, our personal likes and dislikes are not some arcane tome from which you can glean the choicest secrets about what our games are going to be like. Not everything is about work. I remember when I tweeted about not liking a game and some dude decided it offended his game sensibilities and TAGGED IN THE LEAD DESIGNER OF THE GAME to get him to tell me I was wrong 😩 the designer didn't, of course John Epler @eplerjcSomeone I admire recently said they didn't like DAI. And I'm like, cool! That's fine! There's this weird obsession with, I don't know, it feels almost like they're looking to catch us in a moment so they can say 'AHA! That's why your games suck!' But like, games have a lot more moving parts than film or other media. You can love the story and bounce off mechanics, or love the art but bounce off the level design, or ANY NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS!
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2019 4:24:23 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcShould go without saying, but - folks, devs are allowed to like and dislike games based on their own preferences. Going after someone for not liking a specific title is not cool. Game dev is also a collaborative process that relies on those varied perspectives. I personally think that games made and planned only by people who are in lockstep about popular releases would be incredibly boring and samey! Don't be shitty on Twitter! Devs posting on here is not actually part of our official jobs, and if you want our feeds to either A) stop existing or B ) become incredibly bland and boring, that's how you get it. Also, our personal likes and dislikes are not some arcane tome from which you can glean the choicest secrets about what our games are going to be like. Not everything is about work. Anyone who follows @sylvf1 is gonna be really disappointed when some future game we make isn’t Bloodborne. Like you. You’ll be disappointed. John Epler @eplerjc
Patrick that reminds me. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIF ONLY YOU HAD BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF MY MUSICAL IDEA John Epler @eplerjcPatrick I'm going to DM you something and I want you to respond with your first reaction, and depending what it is I will support you here.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 19, 2019 4:28:46 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc
Sometimes my conversations with @patrickweekes feel like a series of escalating dares and neither of us wants to chicken out, but like, in the -best- possible way.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes
We need to get this on a T-shirt. Possibly as a major design principle.
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 19, 2019 5:13:51 GMT
Hey guys, I think the point is that the devs are playing GoW 'for work', indicating that some director-guys have realized there is some magic in GoW, and they want to learn from it. And GoW doesn't need to be perfect for anyone. Not a bad thing, I guess?
Goal wise, playing GoW is getting an education about the attractiveness of the game and its RPG design.
How they can marry the "best of" GoW with MP, vanity mtxs, grinding for loot, progression, gear upgrades, easy menu navigation, informative UIs, inventory management even in the field, user map markers, reduction of the freaking load screens, solo play, NPC companions, good RPG combat mechanics....deep story and character development, choices with consequences... even good /bad choices that lead to the opposite consequence, smart dialogue, ..... it will be a miracle.
Bio has the difficult goal of designing a game that :
(1) First, meets EA's requirements = online, constant tail end revenue and (not sure) MP. (2) Second, design DA4 as an aRPG (if playing GoW is an indication).
A challenging task, for sure.
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 19, 2019 5:23:23 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcSometimes my conversations with @patrickweekes feel like a series of escalating dares and neither of us wants to chicken out, but like, in the -best- possible way. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWe need to get this on a T-shirt. Possibly as a major design principle.
In principle, I'd assume that game design goals come first and the writing then must fit inside those parameters. If these conversations are already in progress, then design goals may be well on their way / near complete.
Total amazement will I feel, if romance/nudity is included in the game.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on Mar 19, 2019 12:05:16 GMT
Not everything is about work. Except in this case it was because whomever that is specifically stated, "I'm playing this for work and if I wasn't playing it for work, I wouldn't be playing it." 
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Post by Little Bengel on Mar 19, 2019 12:30:59 GMT
John Epler @eplerjcShould go without saying, but - folks, devs are allowed to like and dislike games based on their own preferences. Going after someone for not liking a specific title is not cool. Game dev is also a collaborative process that relies on those varied perspectives. I personally think that games made and planned only by people who are in lockstep about popular releases would be incredibly boring and samey! Don't be shitty on Twitter! Devs posting on here is not actually part of our official jobs, and if you want our feeds to either A) stop existing or B ) become incredibly bland and boring, that's how you get it. Also, our personal likes and dislikes are not some arcane tome from which you can glean the choicest secrets about what our games are going to be like. Not everything is about work. More than being good at coding and designing, I'm starting to think you require the patience of a saint and some thick skin (mostly the former) to be a videogame developer. Doubly so at BioWare.
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Anyway, John Epler played GoW fairly recently and he said he's 
. 
