Oh, no, no, no. I'm not blaming it on the engine. Not by a long shot. I just believe that if you have to be fighting your own engine with every new game, you're just making your own development artificially difficult.
The animations and cinematics, what about them? Like you couldn't achieve that in UE4? Like the guy from Respawn said "you can do anything you want with any engine, you just need the right people".
That quote logically also applies to Frostbite, doesn't it?
And Bioware clearly has the right people.
RIP old BioWare - 1995-2016. I used to be a fan, now I'm just toxic.
Ultimately, I do believe BioWare would fair better with a more robust engine (like an Unreal engine), in the long run. Having to deal with the complications of the Frostbite engine likely affects how quickly certain tools can be made. It probably also extends what would arguably be easy programming fixes, and takes a - albeit small - toll on developer morale. Based on John Epler's and Cameron Daytons comments, among many other devs, its a pain in the ass to work with overall; even though it is workable. This isn't just limited to BioWare either. Other studios have voiced these same criticisms, and even DICE has significant problems with it as well; and their the creators of it. I remember Battlefield IV being a buggy mess when it first launched. That could very well be due to not doing enough bug testing and PTR's, but it could also be due to the engine not being coded well. I think Mark Darrah said, when DA:I was completed, BioWare had to quash over a thousand bugs; to which he emphasized it wasn't an exaggeration. The sound glitch is also still a recurring problem in Frostbite games.
However, technical limitations aside, most of the initial problems with BioWare's more recent games is that they've been late to formulate a concrete idea of what their games need to be; based on reporting. There's also them not solidifying their design decisions during full production (such as the MEA animation rig change that midnight mentioned). For all intents and purposes, DA:I, Andromeda, and Anthem have basically been scrapped together within two years (or less). Frostbite technical limitations could be overcome with time, but only if the studio can solidify its vision on what they want their games to be; and far earlier in development.
I happened to see some of the concept art and gameplay features that were being made for Anthem, and it didn't give me the impression that the devs don't understand how to make interesting tech. One demo example was dynamic snow fall building up on the ground. I believe that Brenon Holmes (Anthems Technical Design Director) also said they had tech that would allow rainfall to build up in "pools". Problem is, you can't get that stuff off the ground and into the game if you don't have enough time to implement and debug it. It's ultimately why so many of the things BioWare showcased for Anthem didn't make it into the game. It's also why Andromeda had so many technical problems (among other things), or why Crestwood (in DA:I) wasn't as choice heavy as was what seen in the private showing (though I believe this was more a console limitation due it it being last gen as well).
Either way, while BioWare needs to sort out their internal problems, EA needs to start thinking about how they want this engine to be utilized. Making a ubiquitous engine means you also need to have it be versatile for every studio, and that's not the case right now. The degree to which these studios are so reliant upon Frostbite engineers is indicative of how poorly optimized it is for meeting every studios design goals. They're [EA] either gonna have to put money down to upgrade (or rebuild) the engine, or these problems are going to continue to persist for their studios. What I'm most interested in is how Respawn is going to develop their games now that they're under EA. Will they continue to use third-party engines, or will they try to use Frostbite?
Ultimately, they can keep using Frosbite if they want. True, Both Andromeda and Anthem were done pretty much in the final years (or year and a half for Anthem...) that clearly doesn't help. I think the decision to continue with Frosbite was a bad idea after Inquisition. I know the narrative of EA wanting that engine for all the studios, but wanting isn't the same as forcing. As far as I know they were never forced to use Frosbite. I think they just didn't know what they were getting into back then with Inqusition, clearly they weren't going to use the UE2 / Eclipse or whatever the heck was back then after DA2, and thought Frosbite was cool and maybe a decent engine to work in, maybe things would've been slightly different had they used UE4 instead of Frosbite, or maybe not.
I've said it in the past. The whole "Source" initiative to use Frosbite in everything was stupid, because EA never put a team to adapt the engine for sports, rpgs, racing games, etc. It had to be done first and as part of each studio's development time. Which is an absurd request (if it truly was a request). That shows how out of touch and how little EA knows about anything they're doing, outside money.
RIP old BioWare - 1995-2016. I used to be a fan, now I'm just toxic.
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
I've said it in the past. The whole "Source" initiative to use Frosbite in everything was stupid, because EA never put a team to adapt the engine for sports, rpgs, racing games, etc. It had to be done first and as part of each studio's development time. Which is an absurd request (if it truly was a request). That shows how out of touch and how little EA knows about anything they're doing, outside money.
That quote logically also applies to Frostbite, doesn't it?
And Bioware clearly has the right people.
If they don't have 'the right people' to Frostbite why would have 'the right people' for Unreal? Unreal would have to be learned and adapted for different games as well, so training 'the right people' may as well take similar amount of time or resources as adapting Frostbite for different types of games, thus resulting with similar problems on the way.
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2019 15:18:38 GMT by midnight tea
βThe cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.β
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
If they don't have 'the right people' to Frostbite why would have 'the right people' for Unreal? Unreal would have to be learned and adapted for different games as well, so training 'the right people' may as well take similar amount of time or resources as adapting Frostbite for different types of games, thus resulting with similar problems on the way.
No idea honestly. But maybe because both engines are not the same, maybe because UE was built with variety in mind whereas Frosbite was built for Battlefield games in mind, which are FPS games.
I for one don't think they would have a harder time with Unreal compared to Frosbite. Would all be super cool and easy? of course not, would it be easier than Frosbite? quite possible yes.
RIP old BioWare - 1995-2016. I used to be a fan, now I'm just toxic.
If they don't have 'the right people' to Frostbite why would have 'the right people' for Unreal? Unreal would have to be learned and adapted for different games as well, so training 'the right people' may as well take similar amount of time or resources as adapting Frostbite for different types of games, thus resulting with similar problems on the way.
No idea honestly. But maybe because both engines are not the same, maybe because UE was built with variety in mind whereas Frosbite was built for Battlefield games in mind, which are FPS games.
I for one don't think they would have a harder time with Unreal compared to Frosbite. Would all be super cool and easy? of course not, would it be easier than Frosbite? quite possible yes.
easier doesn't always mean better.
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No idea honestly. But maybe because both engines are not the same, maybe because UE was built with variety in mind whereas Frosbite was built for Battlefield games in mind, which are FPS games.
I for one don't think they would have a harder time with Unreal compared to Frosbite. Would all be super cool and easy? of course not, would it be easier than Frosbite? quite possible yes.
No idea honestly. But maybe because both engines are not the same, maybe because UE was built with variety in mind whereas Frosbite was built for Battlefield games in mind, which are FPS games.
I for one don't think they would have a harder time with Unreal compared to Frosbite. Would all be super cool and easy? of course not, would it be easier than Frosbite? quite possible yes.
easier doesn't always mean better.
And Frosbite is better for, say a DA or a ME game? I've never heard anything bad from Unreal 4, Frosbite on the other hand... the engine is great at what it does: fps games. It was never built for anything outside that in mind.
RIP old BioWare - 1995-2016. I used to be a fan, now I'm just toxic.
And Frosbite is better for, say a DA or a ME game? I've never heard anything bad from Unreal 4, Frosbite on the other hand... the engine is great at what it does: fps games. It was never built for anything outside that in mind.
And yet it makes those games as well as Unreal did and since its EAs engine they don't have to waste money on liscencing fees. Hence Frostbite has the advantage.
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- From a longer conversation on Half-Elves, the human traits being dominant, and Feynriel seemingly being a (slight) exception.
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Okay, it's in the codices. And here is where I go, but Feynriel exists in his elfy glory. Was the in-universe author of the codex wrong? Where are the other half-elves/half-dwarves? If the codex author is right, what about Feynriel? The puzzle is fun for me.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Feynriel's ears aren't pointy, though. I mean, he might be as elfy as one could look and still be human, but he's still human. (Also ignore me if me being here is not fun or helpful.)
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Human *how* though? Humans and elves are already close enough that they can interbreed, and except for Morrigan's dark ritual shenanigans we have no examples of half-elf/human mixes. The differences seem mostly phenotypic.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes So: appearance may be a mix, but human in the sense of "not an elf", because the rule for elves is that if an elf has a child with any non-elf species (human, dwarf, Qunari), the elf loses. And not like recessive genes, where an elf might pop up later. The elf side loses.
This would factor in for "do the crossroads look pretty for you", as mentioned in Masked Empire and shown off in DAI and Trespasser. Right now, it doesn't affect much else, that we're telling you about.
For the question of "other half-races", the answer (as I see it, at least) is that it's difficult enough to establish an identity for a made-up race like fantasy-dwarves or Qunari without also adding in stuff like how half-Qunari or half-dwarves integrate.
We have surface dwarves vs Orzammar dwarves, we have Qunari vs Tal-Vashoth, we have city elf vs Dalish elf, so we're already trying to tackle "solely in race's culture" vs "partially or fully integrating into human culture." Adding half-dwarves wouldn't help.
So while nothing is guaranteed until another game comes out, I don't see us adding half-races in. It's not where we want to go.
That does NOT mean we're opposed to inter-fantasy-racial child-having. I would love to see, for example, a dwarf-elf couple with kids.
(And in case it comes up: we are still figuring out some combinations, which is why I'm not answering everything explicitly.)
And also I'm trying to specifically say "inter-fantasy-racial" rather than "interracial", because a Qunari and a human having kids might work in some ways as a metaphor for a black person and white person having kids, but in other ways it is a terrible problematic metaphor.
(Problematic enough that even though we try to avoid it, we've agreed as a team that all race combinations can reproduce, because we DO NOT want to imply that some fantasy races produce "mules", as racist old folks used to believe black/white marriages produced.)
ANYWAY. Trying to keep going with an IP that first shipped ten years ago and was started seven years before THAT has a lot of fun complicated parts, and some stuff is gonna be messy and prone to aging poorly, and when that happens, we have to decide what should change.
And sometimes we screw up, and something one person misunderstood gets into a game, and then oops, it's canon, and that sucks, and you do what you can, change where you have to, and try to focus on making something that people have fun with.
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BioWare @bioware "If I want to hear songs, I'll go to a tavern." - Varric Tethras. #BardSongs
See, you might think that that picture is just a screenshot with some pretty animated fire effects layered on, but no. That's exactly how Maryden always plays the lute: by not moving a muscle. A true talent, that one.
Bugs/desync jokes aside, though, think there's any significance to that particular song being chosen?
- From a longer conversation on Half-Elves, the human traits being dominant, and Feynriel seemingly being a (slight) exception.
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Okay, it's in the codices. And here is where I go, but Feynriel exists in his elfy glory. Was the in-universe author of the codex wrong? Where are the other half-elves/half-dwarves? If the codex author is right, what about Feynriel? The puzzle is fun for me.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Feynriel's ears aren't pointy, though. I mean, he might be as elfy as one could look and still be human, but he's still human. (Also ignore me if me being here is not fun or helpful.)
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Human *how* though? Humans and elves are already close enough that they can interbreed, and except for Morrigan's dark ritual shenanigans we have no examples of half-elf/human mixes. The differences seem mostly phenotypic.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes So: appearance may be a mix, but human in the sense of "not an elf", because the rule for elves is that if an elf has a child with any non-elf species (human, dwarf, Qunari), the elf loses. And not like recessive genes, where an elf might pop up later. The elf side loses.
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Okay. So human culturally, that's fair. Recessive alleles I'll throw down on . Even if the alleles for elven traits are recessive, and rare, two human bloodlines with elf-blooded ancestors may have a child with some elfy characteristics. Recessives *lurk.*
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes But... that's not how it works. There's a bard in Masked Empire who gets as close as we could manage IP-wise to saying "Huh, by genetics, there should be hidden recessive elfy genes, but it doesn't happen ever ever ever. Weird, huh?"
βThe cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.β
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jun 25, 2019 23:35:59 GMT
I'm sure all of this has to do with elves as a species being the result of malleable spirits that were made flesh. They mix with the ones who've always been meatbags and their more fancy traits get overwritten.
Last Edit: Jun 26, 2019 0:05:02 GMT by AlleluiaElizabeth: clarification
I'm sure all of this has to do with elves as a species being the result of malleable spirits made flesh. They mix with the ones who've always been meatbags and their more fancy traits get overwritten.
Well, whatever it is, the implication is that the in-story reason is magical and we'll likely get the answer at some later point, as it's probably tied to some sort of major reveal.
Last Edit: Jun 26, 2019 0:41:33 GMT by midnight tea
βThe cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.β
- From a longer conversation on Half-Elves, the human traits being dominant, and Feynriel seemingly being a (slight) exception.
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Okay, it's in the codices. And here is where I go, but Feynriel exists in his elfy glory. Was the in-universe author of the codex wrong? Where are the other half-elves/half-dwarves? If the codex author is right, what about Feynriel? The puzzle is fun for me.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Feynriel's ears aren't pointy, though. I mean, he might be as elfy as one could look and still be human, but he's still human. (Also ignore me if me being here is not fun or helpful.)
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Human *how* though? Humans and elves are already close enough that they can interbreed, and except for Morrigan's dark ritual shenanigans we have no examples of half-elf/human mixes. The differences seem mostly phenotypic.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes So: appearance may be a mix, but human in the sense of "not an elf", because the rule for elves is that if an elf has a child with any non-elf species (human, dwarf, Qunari), the elf loses. And not like recessive genes, where an elf might pop up later. The elf side loses.
This would factor in for "do the crossroads look pretty for you", as mentioned in Masked Empire and shown off in DAI and Trespasser. Right now, it doesn't affect much else, that we're telling you about.
For the question of "other half-races", the answer (as I see it, at least) is that it's difficult enough to establish an identity for a made-up race like fantasy-dwarves or Qunari without also adding in stuff like how half-Qunari or half-dwarves integrate.
We have surface dwarves vs Orzammar dwarves, we have Qunari vs Tal-Vashoth, we have city elf vs Dalish elf, so we're already trying to tackle "solely in race's culture" vs "partially or fully integrating into human culture." Adding half-dwarves wouldn't help.
So while nothing is guaranteed until another game comes out, I don't see us adding half-races in. It's not where we want to go.
That does NOT mean we're opposed to inter-fantasy-racial child-having. I would love to see, for example, a dwarf-elf couple with kids.
(And in case it comes up: we are still figuring out some combinations, which is why I'm not answering everything explicitly.)
And also I'm trying to specifically say "inter-fantasy-racial" rather than "interracial", because a Qunari and a human having kids might work in some ways as a metaphor for a black person and white person having kids, but in other ways it is a terrible problematic metaphor.
(Problematic enough that even though we try to avoid it, we've agreed as a team that all race combinations can reproduce, because we DO NOT want to imply that some fantasy races produce "mules", as racist old folks used to believe black/white marriages produced.)
ANYWAY. Trying to keep going with an IP that first shipped ten years ago and was started seven years before THAT has a lot of fun complicated parts, and some stuff is gonna be messy and prone to aging poorly, and when that happens, we have to decide what should change.
And sometimes we screw up, and something one person misunderstood gets into a game, and then oops, it's canon, and that sucks, and you do what you can, change where you have to, and try to focus on making something that people have fun with.
Wooo gamedev. (fin)
it is always a fun conversation to have in these regards for a number of reasons from a writing perspective, science perspective, and political perspective.
Unless i am woefully wrong about my high school science two members of entirely different species cannot reproduce or there at least needs to be some genetic compatibility. Like a human can't reproduce with a dog but a German shepherd can reproduce with a pit bull.
What makes this complicated from a writing/ political perspective is that often other 'fantasy (and sci fi) races' are analogues to humans. So it is often really delicate to not show your characters of 'different races' being able to mate with one another. Especially since there are players who generally want to romance and play these types of scenarios.
Which makes it doubly complicated since modern day views on sex/relationships/ marriage have changed to the point that reproduction isn't ultimately the end goal of such relationships.
And yes, from a writing perspective taking all this into account can say loads depending on the creative choices you make.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jun 26, 2019 3:26:54 GMT
Its weird. Half-elves existing I tend to see a lot in fantasy, and I find it interesting. Human/dwarf hybrids, not so much interest, even though I love dwarves. But then dwarves and humans don't typically have tensions, so half-dwarves wouldn't usually have to worry about the whole "part of 2 worlds but not welcome in either" thing going on. Whereas elves and humans are almost always shown as having some kind of tension. Or maybe its cus elves are typically the more ethereal and beautiful but also untouchable aspect of humanity, while dwarves are more the down to earth (heh, pun) side of things and thus its less... desirable(I guess?) to see what comes from merging them with bog basic fantasy human?
And yes, I do say this knowing I'm the one who started the Cassandra/Varric thread on here. I like the individual couple b/c of their dynamic, but I guess what I am saying is that just the concept of a half-dwarf, without that context of the individuals involved, isn't particularly interesting to me. The concept of a half-elf however is almost automatically compelling. And I don't think I'm alone in that? Its just kinda weird if I think about it. Maybe it relates to story archetype preferences?
- From a longer conversation on Half-Elves, the human traits being dominant, and Feynriel seemingly being a (slight) exception.
Malus, the Bad Apple π π³οΈβπ @smgreenapples Okay, it's in the codices. And here is where I go, but Feynriel exists in his elfy glory. Was the in-universe author of the codex wrong? Where are the other half-elves/half-dwarves? If the codex author is right, what about Feynriel? The puzzle is fun for me.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Feynriel's ears aren't pointy, though. I mean, he might be as elfy as one could look and still be human, but he's still human. (Also ignore me if me being here is not fun or helpful.)
I think the one extra thing muddying the waters is the fact that even though elf ears differ from human ears by the rim of elven ears having pointy shape, there are humans who have helixes in which the inner arch of the helix (seen in the drawing: the yellow line in the picture) forms an angle instead of an arch. For example the actor Joe Flanigan from Stargate: Atlantis has ears like this. When you combime this trait with half-elven characters or have their ears appear to look like this when viewed fron certain angles, I'm not surprised people get confused and tend to view these characters as having clear elven characteristics or "flavour."
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"There are kids today who are 12 years old who weren't around when BioWare started making games⦠and they have different expectations of what a BioWare game should be in the context of the world they've grown up in."
I'm not sure the sentiment expressed in this statement is even correct. I mean... a good story is a good story. I mean, age groups as a cohort might find a certain kind of story more interesting, but that's not determined by time periods. A 12 year old in the 90s and a 12 year old now likely would still be drawn to similar archetypes-- if they have similar preferences-- regardless of the decade they're in.
Is he speaking purely about game mechanics? ie, combat being more fluid, or something? Cus that's the only thing I'd see the difference in, and even then its not entirely accurate. A 90s or early 00s gamer expected graphics and such to be a step up from previous games just as much as a gamer nowadays does. The industry is always improving those things.
Just... what is he going on about? Cus it sounds like a justification argument for changing their games to supposedly attract tweens, to the apparent exclusion of the things that attract non-tweens, and that seems dumb. (And I do say "supposedly attract" b/c I know 12 year old me would have still loved the ME and DA series at the time of their launches; even the first entries, slow combat and all. So #notall12yearolds, I guess?)
As for Alix.... stop playing with my heart, you fiend! (Though she did give a coy answer rather than a straight up shut down to the clearly DA-related probing, so I kind of also have hope??? Besides, last time she was "voicing an elf" for Warcraft or something, she did pretty immediately assure us it wasn't Bioware, I think?)
I'm not exactly sure what he's going on about here either. I mean, what expectations do 12 year olds have of BioWare specifically, given that they've only been making Rated M (17+) games for ages now?
But okay, let's just assume this is just a roundabout way of saying they want to grow their audience by bringing in those Destiny kids (and those Destiny dollars) with Anthem (all Rated T). Nothing wrong with expanding your audience, but they didn't have a clear vision how to do that (in addition to a host of other studio issues), and it shows. On the one hand, it's nice to hear that they feel it has potential and will try to nurture that potential going forward. On the other hand, it kinda feels like a waste of BWs not-unlimited resources on what feels like a long-shot at recovery at this point.
I don't expect they're suddenly going to pivot and start making DA/ME games for 12 year olds. Not without a complete reboot of these franchises at any rate. But... we can only wait and see what they'll do.
The truth is a lot of successful video game companies that are still around today, Capcom, Nintendo, Sega, Square-Enix, EA, Activision-Blizzard, and others did that by making more than one type of video game Capcom for example has done sidescrollers, action, fighting, JRPGs, survivor horror, and puzzle. Capcom doing this isn't affected when a genre might not be as popular as it once was and by having enough different franchises that can and do sell well enough they were able to take chances are different genres, series, and create possible new franchises. Blizzard has also done this with games like World of Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft, and Overwatch all of them are different kinds of games and have been very successful for them.
My personal mottoes:
1) I would rather be hated for being honest than being loved as a liar.
(fin)
. Even if the alleles for elven traits are recessive, and rare, two human bloodlines with elf-blooded ancestors may have a child with some elfy characteristics. Recessives *lurk.*
