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Post by colfoley on Jun 12, 2024 20:43:57 GMT
The answer is simple - he isn't a nutcase and is capable of change. So if it wasn't Solas, but another character, one you may not like, would you say the same? Would you still be supportive of that individual? supportive maybe not, try to talk them down and get them to choose another path if offered, yes.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 12, 2024 20:51:15 GMT
So I refreshed my memories on some details. I know this has all been discussed before and I just forgot over time but if somebody could help me out. Did Solas ever say how he planned to take care of the evanuris once the veil came down? Did he expect them to be so weak that he could just kill them? Did he want to kill them at all?
I think I struggled with this before trying to understand this plan of his. Even if we ignore the mass murder bringing down the veil would entail and focus on the world he wanted to rebuild for his people, how was this going to work out with pissed off "gods"? We'll learn of this in DAV no doubt. But this was a super risky plan even for his own people. If he failed to kill or subdue his fellow gods, then things would go back to being a shitty slave society probably with gods in a even fouler mood. So he basically accepted huge collateral damage and possibly also making things even worse for his people if he failed. What sane person would allow this to happen? Solas is unhinged at best.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 20:52:40 GMT
The answer is simple - he isn't a nutcase and is capable of change. So if it wasn't Solas, but another character, one you may not like, would you say the same? Would you still be supportive of that individual? So you think my support for his actions stems only from the fact that I like the character? ...Why do you think I like Solas as a character, tho? The answer is - in large part because of the struggles he's been put through. And if another character has been put in similar awful dilemmas, I don't see why I wouldn't support them - or at least didn't handwave them away as nutcases that need to be put down. Heck, I'm the person who said numerous times that I'd find it interesting if *our own characters* were put through similar crappy dilemmas.
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Post by Reznore on Jun 12, 2024 20:53:19 GMT
The answer is simple - he isn't a nutcase and is capable of change. He's a bit kinda like gone too far ? He killed one of the person he loved the most, Mythal. After she swooped in and help fix his mistake. He's responsible for the breach, the conclave blewing up, who knows how many death...then a decade after he's ripping the veil again and bodies are piling up again. When does it stop being ok? What's the red line? The last straw?
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 20:58:20 GMT
The answer is simple - he isn't a nutcase and is capable of change. He's a bit kinda like gone too far ? He killed one of the person he loved the most, Mythal. After she swooped in and help fix his mistake. He's responsible for the breach, the conclave blewing up, who knows how many death...then a decade after he's ripping the veil again and bodies are piling up again. When does it stop being ok? What's the red line? The last straw? One: He didn't kill Mythal - she handed her powers to him. Two: We'll only know where the red line is when we know his full motivations and the full extent of the threat to the world. After all, many people would say that the destruction of Elvenhan should definitely be a red line. Yet, if pushing away magic from the world (which destroyed Elvenhan) saved the world from something FAR WORSE... where's the red line indeed?
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Post by themikefest on Jun 12, 2024 21:02:48 GMT
So if it wasn't Solas, but another character, one you may not like, would you say the same? Would you still be supportive of that individual? So you think my support for his actions stems only from the fact that I like the character? ...Why do you think I like Solas as a character, tho? The answer is - in large part because of the struggles he's been put through. And if another character has been put in similar awful dilemmas, I don't see why I wouldn't support them - or at least didn't handwave them away as nutcases that need to be put down. Heck, I'm the person who said numerous times that I'd find it interesting if *our own characters* were put through similar crappy dilemmas. If I liked Solas, for whatever reason during DAI, then I listen to what he says in trespasser, I would still want to drop kick the piece of crap to the next planet. Anyone who wants to destroy the world, and has the capability of carrying out their plan, for whatever reason regardless if I liked them or not, needs to be put down.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 21:06:12 GMT
I hope we do get to see all the Evanuris and not just those two. Also hope not all of them are the cartoon villains Solas painted them as. I admit that this statement is kinda funny, considering all the things you've said about Solas Evanuris (we already have enough information - separate from Solas - to establish they were very likely corrupted, awful rulers who enslaved and killed countless people) <- I so hope they aren't cartoon villains! Solas (we already have enough information to establish that motivations behind his actions are complex and related to him trying to stop a terrible threat to the world) <- what a cartoon villain! Don’t recall calling Solas a cartoon villain, so don’t put words in my mouth please.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:08:20 GMT
So I refreshed my memories on some details. I know this has all been discussed before and I just forgot over time but if somebody could help me out. Did Solas ever say how he planned to take care of the evanuris once the veil came down? Did he expect them to be so weak that he could just kill them? Did he want to kill them at all? I think I struggled with this before trying to understand this plan of his. Even if we ignore the mass murder bringing down the veil would entail and focus on the world he wanted to rebuild for his people, how was this going to work out with pissed off "gods"? We'll learn of this in DAV no doubt. But this was a super risky plan even for his own people. If he failed to kill or subdue his fellow gods, then things would go back to being a shitty slave society probably with gods in a even fouler mood. So he basically accepted huge collateral damage and possibly also making things even worse for his people if he failed. What sane person would allow this to happen? Solas is unhinged at best. I think what we already saw from the Veilguard indicates that he's had plans to dismantle the Veil while keeping the Evanuris at bay - if you pay attention, you'll see that he's cutting the Veil very, veeeeeeeery slowly with that fancy knife of his, as if that ritual requires extreme precision and care. It's only when Rook pushed those statues (that clearly had some function in the ritual) that the tear he's been cutting splits open and Evanuris show up. Clearly, our team enters like a bull into the china shop and messes up an extremely delicate operation that likely meant to deal with Evanuris in some way, rather than releasing them.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:11:48 GMT
So you think my support for his actions stems only from the fact that I like the character? ...Why do you think I like Solas as a character, tho? The answer is - in large part because of the struggles he's been put through. And if another character has been put in similar awful dilemmas, I don't see why I wouldn't support them - or at least didn't handwave them away as nutcases that need to be put down. Heck, I'm the person who said numerous times that I'd find it interesting if *our own characters* were put through similar crappy dilemmas. If I liked Solas, for whatever reason during DAI, then I listen to what he says in trespasser, I would still want to drop kick the piece of crap to the next planet. Anyone who wants to destroy the world, and has the capability of carrying out their plan, for whatever reason regardless if I liked them or not, needs to be put down. Were it were so simple, I'd agree with you But it isn't. And I say this because I actually listened to what he said, in Trespasser and in DAI. His plan isn't about destruction - at least not one that would leave the world a dead ruin. It's about change. About restoring to people what's been taken away from them. No, not just elves. All people.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 21:14:03 GMT
If I liked Solas, for whatever reason during DAI, then I listen to what he says in trespasser, I would still want to drop kick the piece of crap to the next planet. Anyone who wants to destroy the world, and has the capability of carrying out their plan, for whatever reason regardless if I liked them or not, needs to be put down. Were it were so simple, I'd agree with you But it isn't. And I say this because I actually listened to what he said, in Trespasser and in DAI. His plan isn't about destruction - at least not one that would leave the world a dead ruin. It's about change. About restoring to people what's been taken away from them. No, not just elves. All people. Certainly didn’t imply the other races would survive when talking to Charter.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:14:48 GMT
I admit that this statement is kinda funny, considering all the things you've said about Solas Evanuris (we already have enough information - separate from Solas - to establish they were very likely corrupted, awful rulers who enslaved and killed countless people) <- I so hope they aren't cartoon villains! Solas (we already have enough information to establish that motivations behind his actions are complex and related to him trying to stop a terrible threat to the world) <- what a cartoon villain! Don’t recall calling Solas a cartoon villain, so don’t put words in my mouth please. Apologies - I just don't see much difference between cartoon vilans and the way you're describing Solas and his motivations.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 12, 2024 21:17:44 GMT
So I refreshed my memories on some details. I know this has all been discussed before and I just forgot over time but if somebody could help me out. Did Solas ever say how he planned to take care of the evanuris once the veil came down? Did he expect them to be so weak that he could just kill them? Did he want to kill them at all? I think I struggled with this before trying to understand this plan of his. Even if we ignore the mass murder bringing down the veil would entail and focus on the world he wanted to rebuild for his people, how was this going to work out with pissed off "gods"? We'll learn of this in DAV no doubt. But this was a super risky plan even for his own people. If he failed to kill or subdue his fellow gods, then things would go back to being a shitty slave society probably with gods in a even fouler mood. So he basically accepted huge collateral damage and possibly also making things even worse for his people if he failed. What sane person would allow this to happen? Solas is unhinged at best. He just says he has "plans" when you ask him about it in Trespasser. I'm sure some of his fans will tell us they great plans that Rook foiled or something like that.
Personally, I will always remember his plans in DAI went from: - Get Cory to open the orb -> wait for him to kill himself with it -> Profit (pick orb up) to - Join Inquisition -> wait until they defeat Cory -> Profit (pick orb up)
And both were total failures...
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 12, 2024 21:20:03 GMT
I think what we already saw from the Veilguard indicates that he's had plans to dismantle the Veil while keeping the Evanuris at bay - if you pay attention, you'll see that he's cutting the Veil very, veeeeeeeery slowly with that fancy knife of his, as if that ritual requires extreme precision and care. It's only when Rook pushed those statues (that clearly had some function in the ritual) that the tear he's been cutting splits open and Evanuris shows up. Clearly, our team enters like a bull into the china shop and messes up an extremely delicate operation that likely meant to deal with Evanuris in some way, rather than releasing them. So like a surgeon cutting out the cancer Trying to picture how this would look like in literal terms. Now that I think about it I guess now that Rook and his friends fucked up his plan he might be forced to give it up and that's how we find a different solution together and then Solas will be happy and we all live in some kind of hybrid fairytale world? Now it's coming back to me how we joked about Dragon Age ending like ME3, picking the red, blue or green ending. I mean, Solas is already the catalyst whose solution won't work anymore. It all makes sense now, the Mass Effect combat! *Wake Up starts playing in my head*
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 21:20:16 GMT
So I refreshed my memories on some details. I know this has all been discussed before and I just forgot over time but if somebody could help me out. Did Solas ever say how he planned to take care of the evanuris once the veil came down? Did he expect them to be so weak that he could just kill them? Did he want to kill them at all? I think I struggled with this before trying to understand this plan of his. Even if we ignore the mass murder bringing down the veil would entail and focus on the world he wanted to rebuild for his people, how was this going to work out with pissed off "gods"? We'll learn of this in DAV no doubt. But this was a super risky plan even for his own people. If he failed to kill or subdue his fellow gods, then things would go back to being a shitty slave society probably with gods in an even fouler mood. So he basically accepted huge collateral damage and possibly also making things even worse for his people if he failed. What sane person would allow this to happen? Solas is unhinged at best. He just says he has "plans" when you ask him about it in Trespasser. I'm sure some of his fans will tell us they great plans that Rook foiled or something like that.
Personally, I will always remember his plans in DAI went from: - Get Cory to open the orb -> wait for him to kill himself with it -> Profit (pick orb up) to - Join Inquisition -> wait until they defeat Cory -> Profit (pick orb up)
And both were total failures...
Since at least some of the Evanuris are out now, he literally hasn’t had a single plan that worked now.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:23:13 GMT
Were it were so simple, I'd agree with you But it isn't. And I say this because I actually listened to what he said, in Trespasser and in DAI. His plan isn't about destruction - at least not one that would leave the world a dead ruin. It's about change. About restoring to people what's been taken away from them. No, not just elves. All people. Certainly didn’t imply the other races would survive when talking to Charter. Oh, I'll gladly bring up what exactly he said to Charter: "I have no choice. What I am doing will save this world, and those like you - the elves who still remain - may even find it better, when it's done" There's no implication everyone else will die, only that elves will find it better. And I am very curious what he means when he says "save this world"
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 12, 2024 21:28:24 GMT
I feel like I don't have enough clues to understand what has happened in the past or what he plans for the future - Solas is very cryptic in most things he said, and it's not always easy to determine when he is being literal or metaphorical.
I am pretty convinced that whatever he did in the past and whatever he plans in the future is done from a sense of urgency; to him this needs to be done, or something else that to him is objectively worse will happen. He is not a Cory-face who wants to rule the world and bring glory to a former empire, he is closer to Loghain as a villain (getting your hands dirty to protect what you value).
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Post by Reznore on Jun 12, 2024 21:28:35 GMT
He just says he has "plans" when you ask him about it in Trespasser. I'm sure some of his fans will tell us they great plans that Rook foiled or something like that.
Personally, I will always remember his plans in DAI went from: - Get Cory to open the orb -> wait for him to kill himself with it -> Profit (pick orb up) to - Join Inquisition -> wait until they defeat Cory -> Profit (pick orb up)
And both were total failures...
Come on there's always some suckers around who will fix Solas mistake. Again. Then he will monologue about his burden, and how it all hurt him. The pain of what he must do. Like seriously I don't understand how people can stay calm with that character. No way, I don't get it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 21:31:56 GMT
Don’t recall calling Solas a cartoon villain, so don’t put words in my mouth please. Apologies - I just don't see much difference between cartoon vilans and the way you're describing Solas and his motivations. It's mainly motivation. Saturday morning cartoon (feel that should be specified since many cartoons/anime/etc go super complex) villains do the things they do because of greed for money, power, angry or jealous of others, etc. Like how Solas described the Evanuris. They serve as simple lessons because the audience is small children. Solas absolutely has more complicated motivations. I still see him as evil, but there are people from our history I see as evil but I won’t say they are cartoon villains. Every villain is the hero of their own story. So the level of complexity and moral ambiguity that Solas is being given is like the Evanuris to be given as well. Certainly didn’t imply the other races would survive when talking to Charter. Oh, I'll gladly bring up what exactly he said to Charter: "I have no choice. What I am doing will save this world, and those like you-the elves who still remain-may even find it better, when it's done" There's no implication everyone else will die, only that elves will find it better. And I am very curious what he means when he says "save this world" I was more thinking the moment after that, when Charter says people I care about, which we the audience and most likely Solas know to be Tessa, won’t. He doesn’t refute that or say people of other races could survive like some of the elves, but simply acknowledges her as correct by saying he knows how that feels. Which makes sense since we know that elves still have a bit of a connection to the Fade that other races don’t have.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:33:30 GMT
So I refreshed my memories on some details. I know this has all been discussed before and I just forgot over time but if somebody could help me out. Did Solas ever say how he planned to take care of the evanuris once the veil came down? Did he expect them to be so weak that he could just kill them? Did he want to kill them at all? I think I struggled with this before trying to understand this plan of his. Even if we ignore the mass murder bringing down the veil would entail and focus on the world he wanted to rebuild for his people, how was this going to work out with pissed off "gods"? We'll learn of this in DAV no doubt. But this was a super risky plan even for his own people. If he failed to kill or subdue his fellow gods, then things would go back to being a shitty slave society probably with gods in a even fouler mood. So he basically accepted huge collateral damage and possibly also making things even worse for his people if he failed. What sane person would allow this to happen? Solas is unhinged at best. He just says he has "plans" when you ask him about it in Trespasser. I'm sure some of his fans will tell us they great plans that Rook foiled or something like that.
Personally, I will always remember his plans in DAI went from: - Get Cory to open the orb -> wait for him to kill himself with it -> Profit (pick orb up) to - Join Inquisition -> wait until they defeat Cory -> Profit (pick orb up)
And both were total failures... I mean, the plan of Inquisition was apparently - stop Solas - disrupt the ritual - ...release something worse? When dealing with extreme odds, and with limited information, things not going our way are a given. What matters if people are able to think quick on their feet in such chaos. I don't think either Solas or Inquisition are bad in this regard.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 12, 2024 21:47:43 GMT
Apologies - I just don't see much difference between cartoon vilans and the way you're describing Solas and his motivations. It's mainly motivation. Saturday morning cartoon (feel that should be specified since many cartoons/anime/etc go super complex) villains do the things they do because of greed for money, power, angry or jealous of others, etc. Like how Solas described the Evanuris. They serve as simple lessons because the audience is small children. Solas absolutely has more complicated motivations. I still see him as evil, but there are people from our history I see as evil but I won’t say they are cartoon villains. Every villain is the hero of their own story. So the level of complexity and moral ambiguity that Solas is being given is like the Evanuris to be given as well. See, the sad truth is that villains in cartoons have motivations that are very common in real life. The ironic thing is, that when I was younger, I though the same way - that people like that exist only in cartoons or comedies. ...Nope. I can bring up even a couple of people from my own neck of wood who are pretty much entirely motivated by money or jealousy. Like, literally, there's little else. Depressingly. So no - Evanuris being motivated by greed, envy or power (while I don't believe it's a full story) wouldn't be 'simple lesson for small children', as it's commonplace IRL. However, if you want to better know how Evanuris could have ended up in the place they did... replay Inquisition. Which is a title that focuses in big part on how structures of power can get corrupted. That was still in relation to him saying "you elves may find the world I saved to be better", so the only implication here is that anyone but elves may find that world more difficult to adjust to (and if what I suspect will happen - that magic will return to most people - that will be true).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 12, 2024 22:06:46 GMT
It's mainly motivation. Saturday morning cartoon (feel that should be specified since many cartoons/anime/etc go super complex) villains do the things they do because of greed for money, power, angry or jealous of others, etc. Like how Solas described the Evanuris. They serve as simple lessons because the audience is small children. Solas absolutely has more complicated motivations. I still see him as evil, but there are people from our history I see as evil but I won’t say they are cartoon villains. Every villain is the hero of their own story. So the level of complexity and moral ambiguity that Solas is being given is like the Evanuris to be given as well. See, the sad truth is that villains in cartoons have motivations that are very common in real life. The ironic thing is, that when I was younger, I thought the same way - that people like that exist only in cartoons or comedies. ...Nope. I can bring up even a couple of people from my own neck of wood who are pretty much entirely motivated by money or jealousy. Like, literally, there's little else. Depressingly. So no - Evanuris being motivated by greed, envy or power (while I don't believe it's a full story) wouldn't be 'simple lesson for small children', as it's commonplace IRL. However, if you want to better know how Evanuris could have ended up in the place they did... replay Inquisition. Which is a title that focuses in big part on how structures of power can get corrupted. That was still in relation to him saying "you elves may find the world I saved to be better", so the only implication here is that anyone but elves may find that world more difficult to adjust to (and if what I suspect will happen - that magic will return to most people - that will be true). You’re misunderstanding what I mean. Yes I know people are moved by simple motivations like that, but usually there are reasons for that. As opposed to say Scooby-Doo villains where it is a simple motivation and no real reason behind it. But also yes, there are real world people I would say are Saturday Morning cartoon villains. I just don’t want them to be the “power for power’s sake” that Solas says they are. Ignoring the part where I said he doesn’t try to correct her when she says the people she cares for won’t survive. His words suggest most elves won’t even survive, and they have a better chance.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Jun 12, 2024 22:13:45 GMT
Ah news discussion.
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Post by balinux on Jun 12, 2024 22:15:23 GMT
Can anyone clarify if "Rook" is the protagonist's name or a moniker?
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 12, 2024 22:16:29 GMT
Can anyone clarify if "Rook" is the protagonist's name or a moniker? It's a moniker. I could be wrong, but I remember reading you can pick both the name and surname this time.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 12, 2024 23:19:41 GMT
Ah, what is this? Several pages of Solas discourse? Feels like... home...
I've softened a little bit on Solas and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. But if he legit kills Varric, I fear that's a glowy murderknife to the throat for our dear '' friend '' no matter how much of a good egg (pun intended) he proves himself to be. Some crimes just cannot go unpunished.
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