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Post by necrowaif on Jun 20, 2020 23:15:17 GMT
I’ll say this: I fear the day you can determine whether a Dragon Age character will be either good, evil or morally neutral by their race and their sexuality is fast approaching.
I think I’m done with discussing identity politics. I will not respond further to any other posts on this subject, so feel free to get in “the final word” if that’s important to you.
Like I said, my greater concern is still the level of monetization/live service mechanics that DA4 will have. Those three screenshots did nothing to allay those concerns.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 20, 2020 23:19:35 GMT
Is all of the writing in the classics good, or are you remembering the good bits? I find that when I go back and replay games I’m nostalgic for, the ratio of good to mediocre writing is always worse than I remember There's little to the writing of most FPS. We'd have to make the exception of them, to make some conclusions about the writing. And what I would consider better writing, would conflict with your personal preference. Suffice to say, there has been no Planescape: Torment in the past decade. Even Tides of Nunemara did not come a smidgen close to it. Let's not make a comparison in the writing between Diablo 2 and Diablo 3. Diablo 2 would win and it's not even a contest, in everything, from the writing to the line delivery. And now Orcs are racist, too. Well, I guess the Darkspawn are too, by extension, so let's cancel Bioware.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 20, 2020 23:26:18 GMT
I’ll say this: the day you can determine whether a character is either good or evil by the colour of their skin and their sexuality is fast approaching. Erm... that day has long been here. It's just that the chosen "good" color of skin and sexuality were narrowed down to virtually only one option for each most of the time for quite a while . Now THAT's identity politics of epic proportions... So yeah, we need to balance this out a little bit and I think it's baffling anyone could find it even mildly concerning. /EOT for me
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 0:52:05 GMT
I’ll say this: I fear the day you can determine whether a Dragon Age character will be either good, evil or morally neutral by their race and their sexuality is fast approaching. you say this, evidently, without any sense of irony? That's... pretty incredible.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Jun 21, 2020 0:57:08 GMT
I had a bit of a Dragon Age question and wasn't sure where else to ask. If there is a more appropriate thread pls point me to it, TIA. I'm wondering if anyone knows if all the books/comics that have been coming out are going to be required reading to know what's going on in the game? Will I be missing out on a lot of happenings? Or does everyone think it'll be fine? If the general consensus is that reading is required, is there an order list somewhere? Thanks! (Also, I love SWtOR and it should always be included. The Austin team is good peeps!)
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 1:14:14 GMT
I had a bit of a Dragon Age question and wasn't sure where else to ask. If there is a more appropriate thread pls point me to it, TIA. I'm wondering if anyone knows if all the books/comics that have been coming out are going to be required reading to know what's going on in the game? Will I be missing out on a lot of happenings? Or does everyone think it'll be fine? If the general consensus is that reading is required, is there an order list somewhere? Do you mean if it's required reading to understand things in games that are already out or DA4? Because, as far as DA4 is concerned, nobody here can really tell how relevant stuff in recently published materials will be. The general consensus is that these books and comics hold clues to what will be in the upcoming game and that stories from them serve as bridges between game titles, but how important is it to know things from them depends how interested each player is in the lore and storytelling in the franchise. Anyway, the published auxiliary material isn't *necessary* to be known per se, even if it provides valuable insight into story elements. And if you can't/don't want to read all of the material existing outside of the games, the DA Wiki is generally a good place to fill the gaps with details from books, comics, anime, etc...
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Post by dazk on Jun 21, 2020 2:06:03 GMT
Agree. Bioware has been very stingy on releasing DA4 info. Here is what was shown for Cyberpunk 2077 at E3 2018 (about 2+ years before release): Here is what Bioware gave us for DA4 (2+ years before release): This is the only game CDPR has in development and their last game was released in 2015. In this time Bioware has released - with difficulty, true, but still - two games, including a game of new type for them. And we know they work on DA4, while also potentially working on something ME related, and still work on Anthem as well as update for SWTOR. In other words - it's comparing apples to oranges a bit. My original post wasn't comparing Bioware to anyone other than themselves: "How can a company that released 3 ME games between 2007 and 2012 and 3 DA games between 2009 and 2014 now only have Anthem and MEA as releases over the past 6 years. Even MEA is now 3 years old should and should be due to get a sequel if there is even one contemplated but who would know as they communicate nothing and just expect customers to faithfully wait. It's a terrible indictment on Bioware and their communication strategy not to mention their project management skills." That's 6 games in 7 years, yet since then they have released 2 in 6 years and both with issues at Launch. In regards to the Cyberpunk comparison it was purely to do with the amount of communication re the games pre release.
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Post by Avejajed on Jun 21, 2020 2:14:04 GMT
Sorry if I'm responding really late: I dont think you need to have read any of the extra material to understand it on first play. The extra material is not considered Canon, either, unless that's changed.
I think, however, that the extra content is an amazing way to deepen the experience and should not be missed.
Tldr: you don't have to but you won't regret the superior experience if you do.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 21, 2020 2:17:20 GMT
They only have two games in 6 years because those two games had really troubled developments, and the Dragon Age project that was being developed after Inquisition was scrapped by EA, that directed most of the DA team into Anthem's dev team, and a small team was left to start a new DA project.
The 6 games in 7 years should also be analyzed with the caveat that EA forced Bioware to release a second Dragon Age in an insane short time, with basically one year of development...which caused issue in its reception, as the game, regardless of what you think of what they did about the plot and gameplay (which, with a normal development time, could've been improved), was released with tons of bugs, glitches and technical problems. I also think ME3 should've had a longer development then it had. We should remember that Bioware isn't like Ubisoft, that has tons of teams with far more developers on a series like Assassin's Creed, where they can have full teams work on different projects and have yearly releases (and even AC now skipped a year).
All of those things combines, plus the culture problems in Bioware that were discussed. by Jason Scheier on his article, lead to the current situation (for DA4, expecially the former project being scrapped).
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 21, 2020 3:34:40 GMT
Never thought I'd say this, but I'd seriously consider getting several smaller/rushed DA2-like games rather than waiting all these years for a larger scoped game, in a hypothetical world where that was a choice.
I think when it comes down to it, at this point in my life I'm primarily playing for story, characters, romances, and choices that shape the narrative. DA2 accomplishes most of that well, even though I otherwise have many complaints with the game.
Actually I'd love if they released DA visual novels to fill the gaps in releases. I would prefer something interactive rather than books or comics. It could just tell a side story or whatever, but allows us to see more of the world, and for much much cheaper than a full game. Granted, I wouldn't want it to delay the full games but maybe it could be licensed out.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 21, 2020 3:47:44 GMT
Never thought I'd say this, but I'd seriously consider getting several smaller/rushed DA2-like games rather than waiting all these years for a larger scoped game, in a hypothetical world where that was a choice. I think when it comes down to it, at this point in my life I'm primarily playing for story, characters, romances, and choices that shape the narrative. DA2 accomplishes most of that well, even though I otherwise have many complaints with the game. Actually I'd love if they released DA visual novels to fill the gaps in releases. I would prefer something interactive rather than books or comics. It could just tell a side story or whatever, but allows us to see more of the world, and for much much cheaper than a full game. Granted, I wouldn't want it to delay the full games but maybe it could be licensed out. I could agree on a smaller game (and I think that, while DA4 will likely be an open world game, they don't have to necessarily going for the biggest/among the biggest open world games, like they did with DAI). I don't agree on a rushed game, because it give tons of pressure and stress to the devs, and the game are affect negatively by it. DA2's story was affect by the limited time of development, regardless if you like or hate it.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 21, 2020 6:24:22 GMT
Never thought I'd say this, but I'd seriously consider getting several smaller/rushed DA2-like games rather than waiting all these years for a larger scoped game, in a hypothetical world where that was a choice. I think when it comes down to it, at this point in my life I'm primarily playing for story, characters, romances, and choices that shape the narrative. DA2 accomplishes most of that well, even though I otherwise have many complaints with the game. Actually I'd love if they released DA visual novels to fill the gaps in releases. I would prefer something interactive rather than books or comics. It could just tell a side story or whatever, but allows us to see more of the world, and for much much cheaper than a full game. Granted, I wouldn't want it to delay the full games but maybe it could be licensed out. one of the only reasons we are waiting this long is because of the reboot and Anthems troubles. We'd have the game in our grubby little hands by now if it weren't for those two factors. On the other hand boy does it seem like unless you are a BIG studio dev times are going up throughout the industry. Elder scrolls, cyberpunk, even TLoU seemed to have a prolonged dev cycle.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 21, 2020 7:36:56 GMT
On the other hand boy does it seem like unless you are a BIG studio dev times are going up throughout the industry. Elder scrolls, cyberpunk, even TLoU seemed to have a prolonged dev cycle. Which is why I think game development is going to die. At least, a large part of it is and will be substituted by automation, to make up for the large employee count, the crunch and long development cycles.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 13:11:54 GMT
Never thought I'd say this, but I'd seriously consider getting several smaller/rushed DA2-like games rather than waiting all these years for a larger scoped game, in a hypothetical world where that was a choice. I think when it comes down to it, at this point in my life I'm primarily playing for story, characters, romances, and choices that shape the narrative. DA2 accomplishes most of that well, even though I otherwise have many complaints with the game. Actually I'd love if they released DA visual novels to fill the gaps in releases. I would prefer something interactive rather than books or comics. It could just tell a side story or whatever, but allows us to see more of the world, and for much much cheaper than a full game. Granted, I wouldn't want it to delay the full games but maybe it could be licensed out. So what you're saying is that live services through which we could potentially get more stories over larger span of time actually make sense for franchises like DA?
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Post by Frost on Jun 21, 2020 14:02:23 GMT
Never thought I'd say this, but I'd seriously consider getting several smaller/rushed DA2-like games rather than waiting all these years for a larger scoped game, in a hypothetical world where that was a choice. I think when it comes down to it, at this point in my life I'm primarily playing for story, characters, romances, and choices that shape the narrative. DA2 accomplishes most of that well, even though I otherwise have many complaints with the game. Actually I'd love if they released DA visual novels to fill the gaps in releases. I would prefer something interactive rather than books or comics. It could just tell a side story or whatever, but allows us to see more of the world, and for much much cheaper than a full game. Granted, I wouldn't want it to delay the full games but maybe it could be licensed out. So what you're saying is that live services through which we could potentially get more stories over larger span of time actually make sense for franchises like DA? Sure, it would be great if they released quarterly substantial story updates to DA4 up through the release of DA5, but do you really think that is at all likely? I am not expecting anything beyond the usual dlc we got for previous games along with lots of cosmetic microtransactions and low effort events meant to sell those microtransactions.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 21, 2020 14:39:36 GMT
AAA gaming has become far more risk averse. The few games that do release tend to be a 'jack of all trades, master of none' deal. The PS3/360 generation wasn't a utopia but it damn near seems it when you compare it to today.
I was basically done with gaming until the king Red Dead Redemption 2 arrived and restored my interest in the medium, if only a little. Thankfully developers like Rockstar and Naughty Gods are still creating great games that have courage in their own convictions. May it continue.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 14:40:48 GMT
So what you're saying is that live services through which we could potentially get more stories over larger span of time actually make sense for franchises like DA? Sure, it would be great if they released quarterly substantial story updates to DA4 up through the release of DA5, but do you really think that is at all likely? I am not expecting anything beyond the usual dlc we got for previous games along with lots of cosmetic microtransactions and low effort events meant to sell those microtransactions. All the way to DA5? I don't know - it depends how long DA5 will be in development. Much longer than the support period for games like DAI? Quite possibly. Anyway, as far as I understand, everything that extends the life span of a title beyond what's in the base product now falls under the umbrella of live service. All the "usual DLCs" are also live services. This is why the DA devs told us years ago that every DA title to date had them. Thing is now the post-launch support period is a way more deliberate thing, rather than an afterthought and that likely means a longer, more consistent stream of updates, including story content.
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Post by Frost on Jun 21, 2020 14:45:41 GMT
Sure, it would be great if they released quarterly substantial story updates to DA4 up through the release of DA5, but do you really think that is at all likely? I am not expecting anything beyond the usual dlc we got for previous games along with lots of cosmetic microtransactions and low effort events meant to sell those microtransactions. All the way to DA5? I don't know - it depends how long DA5 will be in development. Much longer than the support period for games like DAI? Quite possibly. Anyway, as far as I understand, everything that extends the life span of a title beyond what's in the base product now falls under the umbrella of live service. All the "usual DLCs" are also live services. This is why the DA devs told us years ago that every DA title to date had them. Thing is now the post-launch support period is a way more deliberate thing, rather than an afterthought and that likely means a longer, more consistent stream of updates, including story content. How long will DA5 be in development? 10 years.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 21, 2020 14:57:47 GMT
Anyway, as far as I understand, everything that extends the life span of a title beyond what's in the base product now falls under the umbrella of live service. I'd think that according to that definition, modding support would be live service.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 15:53:32 GMT
Anyway, as far as I understand, everything that extends the life span of a title beyond what's in the base product now falls under the umbrella of live service. I'd think that according to that definition, modding support would be live service. In a sense mods are (and they aren't in a sense that the pace and quality of mods isn't controlled or monetized by the company or publisher - although some did or still try!). I assume this is why we have heard a few years ago that Frostbite will try and go in that direction, offering some level of moddability in the future. It is also my belief that it's the success of Skyrim in this regard - not open world but its longevity thanks to the modding scene - has factored into making live service model a viable option for game publishers and developers.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 15:54:51 GMT
All the way to DA5? I don't know - it depends how long DA5 will be in development. Much longer than the support period for games like DAI? Quite possibly. Anyway, as far as I understand, everything that extends the life span of a title beyond what's in the base product now falls under the umbrella of live service. All the "usual DLCs" are also live services. This is why the DA devs told us years ago that every DA title to date had them. Thing is now the post-launch support period is a way more deliberate thing, rather than an afterthought and that likely means a longer, more consistent stream of updates, including story content. How long will DA5 be in development? 10 years. Still less than TES.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 16:02:18 GMT
AAA gaming has become far more risk averse. The few games that do release tend to be a 'jack of all trades, master of none' deal. The PS3/360 generation wasn't a utopia but it damn near seems it when you compare it to today. I was basically done with gaming until the king Red Dead Redemption 2 arrived and restored my interest in the medium, if only a little. Thankfully developers like Rockstar and Naughty Gods are still creating great games that have courage in their own convictions. May it continue. What does 'courage in own convictions' means exactly? Because I'm getting mixed messages here. Is 'courage in own convictions' means long, troubled development and reports of crunching that people were ready to crucify Bioware for? Also, give the rfecent user review bombing of TLOU2 for daring to be more progressive with themes in their writing means that you are completely supportive of BW writers having courage in their own convictions in this regard as well? Good to hear, sincerely. Also, wasn't RDD2 seven years in development? And THOU2 was six.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 16:24:16 GMT
Sorry if I'm responding really late: I dont think you need to have read any of the extra material to understand it on first play. The extra material is not considered Canon, either, unless that's changed. I think, however, that the extra content is an amazing way to deepen the experience and should not be missed. Tldr: you don't have to but you won't regret the superior experience if you do. The extra material IS canon. If it wasn't so Cole - a character introduced in Asunder - wouldn't be part of DAI, or events of TME wouldn't be mentioned in the game. Thing is that, in places where comic/book events conflict with chosen world-state, AFAIK, we've been told by devs that we are to imagine that major events of those stories did indeed happen, only somewhat differently.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 21, 2020 16:26:39 GMT
AAA gaming has become far more risk averse. The few games that do release tend to be a 'jack of all trades, master of none' deal. The PS3/360 generation wasn't a utopia but it damn near seems it when you compare it to today. I was basically done with gaming until the king Red Dead Redemption 2 arrived and restored my interest in the medium, if only a little. Thankfully developers like Rockstar and Naughty Gods are still creating great games that have courage in their own convictions. May it continue. What does 'courage in own convictions' means exactly? Because I'm getting mixed messages here. Is 'courage in own convictions' means long, troubled development and reports of crunching that people were ready to crucify Bioware for? Also, give the rfecent user review bombing of TLOU2 for daring to be more progressive with themes in their writing means that you are completely supportive of BW writers having courage in their own convictions in this regard as well? Good to hear, sincerely. Also, wasn't RDD2 seven years in development? And THOU2 was six. Please refrain from jumping to conclusions. I'm all for the inclusion of minorities and progressive plots in games - hence why I included Naughty Dog as an example lol. So yes I'm all for Bioware doing the same. Courage in your own convictions means making the game you want to make. Not introducing crappy open worlds or shitty crafting mechanics because Fortnight does it or whatever.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 21, 2020 16:46:36 GMT
What does 'courage in own convictions' means exactly? Because I'm getting mixed messages here. Is 'courage in own convictions' means long, troubled development and reports of crunching that people were ready to crucify Bioware for? Also, give the rfecent user review bombing of TLOU2 for daring to be more progressive with themes in their writing means that you are completely supportive of BW writers having courage in their own convictions in this regard as well? Good to hear, sincerely. Also, wasn't RDD2 seven years in development? And THOU2 was six. Please refrain from jumping to conclusions. I'm all for the inclusion of minorities and progressive plots in games - hence why I included Naughty Dog as an example lol. So yes I'm all for Bioware doing the same. Courage in your own convictions means making the game you want to make. Not introducing crappy open worlds or shitty crafting mechanics because Fortnight does it or whatever. This is why I've asked. Otherwise the statement is somewhat nebulous. As for making the game one wants to make... welp, DA and ME franchise have been franchises whose existence has been decided by higher-ups. David Gaider didn't just wake up one day and ran to studio to convince people to work on his dreamed-up game. He and team of devs have been told to create a story for fantasy franchise, as were ME devs. So they did. The creative process is complex and messy and isn't as easy as 'doing what one wants to make with courage'. It's a factor, but not as big as some may think. Many elements games (or other creative works) introduce are there because someone wants them or think they're cool and not just 'because it's economically viable'. Limitations set by corporate directives or 'what is hip these days' CAN be extremely hampering, but there's more to successful execution of the idea than courage to follow one's heart and creative instincts. The world knows more failures in this regards than successes actually.
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