I took Riordan’s comment on not relying on them not being a reference to their skill but more that due to how isolated the Anderfels are, with the other nations not helping them, it made the nation and thus the Wardens there jaded towards the rest of Thedas.
What characters say in DAO definitely seem to refer to the remoteness of the HQ. Communication in DAO was implied to be very slow and thus it might take weeks for HQ to even be aware of what had happened to the Wardens in Ferelden. Of course, normally in a Blight, darkspawn start emerging in multiple locations in addition to the main one centred on the Arch-demon. The Fifth Blight was curious in that respect in that the only place the darkspawn seemed to break out was southern Ferelden and the vanguard of the army emerged long before the Arch-demon did.
The remoteness of the HQ and poor communication argument has since been disproved by the ease with which Leliana can send communications across the length of Thedas, the fact that every Circle had a sending stone for fast communication, ditto Dorian also gains access to a similar sending crystal and in the Last Flight Weisshaupt is in contact with its various Commanders across Thedas and in Ferelden but had only lost contact with Clarel. However, as World of Thedas explains, HQ does largely leave local commanders to run things as they see fit.
What WoT also states is that the First Warden is now more of a political leader embroiled in the governance of the Anderfels more than the day to day running of the Wardens. So it probably suits them to maintain the myth that problems with communication is the reason they leave things in the hands of their local commanders. I think this is probably what lies behind the alleged problems between HQ and the Wardens in the rest of Thedas.
In the Hunger story the Wardens involved had been summoned to Weisshaupt by messenger and this summons had been sent to all available Wardens. Which suggests something major is brewing at the HQ. Whether this is in connection with problems suggested in the epilogue to DAI or the report about the Horror of Hormack or something else entirely, it does seem likely that Weisshaupt is going to be involved in some way with the plot going forward.
Ah yes, the fake Calling, aka the character assassination of the Wardens or hitting them with the idiot stick repeatedly because only one guy has enough brain cells to think that everything is just too convenient and has the conviction to say that maybe the Tevinter mustache twirling weasel is the obvious bad guy and shouldn't be trusted. Just one guy, no one else. And because I was made to believe this is perfectly reasonable (the non-possessed Wardens chose to follow Clarel of their free will), I should now believe there's a Warden civil war? That requires multiple people with strong, differing opinions banding together and supporting each other, not only one. So, which is it? Do Warden's blindly follow their leadership or do hey also have personal principles? Wardens do whatever needs to be done to end Blights, sure, but the Warden storyline in DAI was just nonsensical and everyone was turned into reactionary morons. Save the world from Blights but leave it to deal with a demon army, that's totally smart. Maybe they did contact Weisshaupt to make sure that the fake Calling was heard everywhere, or maybe they didn't, because the plot needed them to do something so absolutely pants on head stupid that the choice to exile them actually made sense from a design perspective.
You are quite correct in this assessment; it is what I felt at the time. Plus it ignored the establishment of Vigil's Keep as the main warden base in Ferelden, so if Leliana wanted to know what was up with the Wardens, why not ask there first? Even if the Wardens had gone AWOL, there were ordinary people there as well to do everyday jobs, who could at least have thrown some light on their disappearance. Instead it seemed to be suggested that Clarel had some sort of jurisdiction over Feredlen as well as Orlais. If the false Calling was strong enough to reach the Wardens across Ferelden and Orlais, wouldn't it have reached further afield as well? Morrigan even suggested that there was no limit to Corypheus' power or ability to body hop, so theoretically could have bounced all the way to Warden HQ if there was no one nearer to do so. Of course it was all nonsense but we had to swallow it whole because, you know, the Wardens are a secretive bunch and so whilst we as player know none of this made sense, our PC wouldn't.
Incidentally, in the Last Flight the Wardens up in HQ seem perfectly okay, as do the Wardens elsewhere, with the exception of Clarel in Orlais, from whom they hadn't heard for a while but that was considered okay as this can happen in the normal course of events. So Clarel, Stroud(or whoever is our contact), and the other Wardens affected by the False Calling had not seen fit to contact HQ for their advice on either than phenomenon or their idea of trying to use a demon army to destroy the last two Old Gods. Surely the stupidest idea ever considering that even if demons don't tire or need feeding, the people in command of them do and if the person controlling the demon is killed then you just have a rampant demon on the loose. So why did no one think of pointing this out to Erimond as a big flaw in his plan?
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 15:08:15 GMT by gervaise21
Caring about Blight may mean little if they don't care as much about 'the rest of the world', as Riordan said they aren't. If Wardens from Anderfels are too preoccupied with holding grudges towards the rest of the world, one can easily see scenario where they would falter in ways that matter, or be a kind of a threat to the objective Loghain or Wardens in DAI were - they obviously care, but in such a misguided manner that they eventually become an obstacle.
What exactly should they do? Their job is to worry about the Blight, not about the civil unrest in other places, especially on the other side of the continent. Should they get involved in the affairs of other countries that have nothing to do with their jurisdiction just so the rest of the world will like them more?
...Doesn't the same applies to Anderfels? Their job is to worry about the Blight and not civil unrest and so on and not whether local populace likes them?
Also, I think we remember this thing playing out differently. Duncan was going on for a while about the Blight seemingly for a while, yet he was the only known Warden who has been going around the country and recruiting - we know some Wardens come from somewhere, but don't know anything about any contingent sent with him from Weisshaupt to help with the effort or even check the rumors. Besides - after the Joining we know why the rest of present Wardens were worried. Because they knew about Archdemon. They could tell that this wasn't just an internal affair of the country.
Also, regardless whether one sees it as a part of political ploy (was it tho?) Cailan and the rest went to Ostagar to face the hordes of Darkspawn, with situation being unclear whether it's a new Blight or not - but certainly looking like it might be. It is why Duncan and whatever Warden she could muster were there - did Duncan and the rest cared about 'people liking them more' or perhaps were they doing exactly what their order was tasked to do?
It would take months to get word to them from Ferelden (Alistair already says this), it would take weeks before word within the country got around to all Wardens spread out across all corners of the Anderfels to gather and get ready to march + preparing enough equipment for everyone to fight a Blight + getting enough supplies for the march, and then it would take months yet again until they got to Ferelden (even more than it took for the initial message to get to them because an army travels slower than one single messenger/bird). Freleden would have waited either close to or over a year for the Ander Wardens to arrive. And you think that Loghain would have let them inside just because they're Anders and not Orlesians? Of course not, they'd've been turned away, too.
Again, you forget about Duncan. A contingent or recruiting effort could have been done earlier, especially that at least one high-ranking member was exceedingly worried about the Fifth Blight.
The Wardens' role isn't to be in charge or get themselves involved with ruling or politics - that's what got Wardens banned from Ferelden. And seeing what happened to Soldier's Peak one can see why.
Riordan is also the most direct source of knowledge so far (WoT books are written from biased, in-world perspective as well, btw.) and he is the only outside Warden that comes to aid the Fereldan Wardens when it actually matters in a primary role Wardens envision for themselves and are empowered by the world to fulfill.
We also don't know what life is like in the Anderfels. We know it's hard and we know they're a country that sort of gets screwed over even today (the artists we know for certain) but the country is said to have a pretty large population that lives in poverty.
Quite like Ferelden then - an impoverished country that barely got itself from under the shoe of Orlais. I'd say that, given some similarities, Weisshaupt should have a lot of sympathy for Ferelden or understand that they or their rulers may be reluctant to ask Orlesian Wardens for help (and with their own contingent of Wardens virtually non-existent due to past events).
Also - unless we're talking about upper crust or individual regions, I don't think there are many places in Thedas where life is easy. It's effectively a joke now how hard life in Thedas is.
Darkspawn are also a lot more frequent here than in any other place on the surface so it's normal for the people to look to the Wardens, especially if the king doesn't seem to care. Also, we've seen the Wardens get involved in politics in Ferelden during the Fifth Blight (whether reluctantly or not) and regardless of the Landsmeet choice, in Awakening they hold titles and rule an arling. What happened at Soldier's Peak is a matter of opinion if the Wardens should have done what they did or not. It was only one moment in history that went poorly but ruling Amaranthine seems to be going well for a time (RP options notwithstanding).
There is a difference between having influence in specific moment or on a temporary basis, when decisions have to be made. Inquisition has also worked in similar fashion - they led and made decisions in the world embroiled by conflict and chaos. It is different however when a faction, especially one not really built for it, effectively rules over a domain or country and does so on a pretty permanent basis, like Wardens in Anderfels seem to do.
I'd also like to point out that virtually every faction which went outside of its jurisdiction, got a whiff of too much power or felt they're the only solution to a problem got slammed for that in the story - and especially in Inquisition. Heck, even Inquisition at the time of Trespasser was slammed for potentially settling into a role that may have quickly led to corruption of its original purpose (and its purpose wasn't to de facto rule Southern Thedas from now on, even if there are still rational reasons for it to still have a continuing presence in it).
As it happens, it is a role that Wardens from Anderfels appears to have settled into a while ago. And given that writers are not hiding their feelings about what they think about factions grasping for more than what they were made for and how easily it can corrupt them (even if their intentions are good, or at least they're still telling themselves they are good), something tells me they won't be making much of an exception for Weisshaupt in this regard.
The rumors are all we have so far - I mean, aside from stuff I mentioned or the fact that Orlesian/Fereldan Wardens don't seem to count on Anderfels' help with the Fake Calling, Wardens ensnared by it seem to think that Wardens are over as a faction if they die and Inquisition is provided with no help or guidance, be it about Corypheus or Adamant.
Ah yes, the fake Calling, aka the character assassination of the Wardens or hitting them with the idiot stick repeatedly because only one guy has enough brain cells to think that everything is just too convenient and has the conviction to say that maybe the Tevinter mustache twirling weasel is the obvious bad guy and shouldn't be trusted. Just one guy, no one else.
I'll just mention that given how much idiocy we see IRL I'd say that factitious gullible Wardens still look positively genius
Still, that's sort of my point - where was Weisshaupt in all this? Orlesians supposedly looked everywhere for help and it seems unlikely they didn't seek help in their main HQ.
And because I was made to believe this is perfectly reasonable (the non-possessed Wardens chose to follow Clarel of their free will), I should now believe there's a Warden civil war? That requires multiple people with strong, differing opinions banding together and supporting each other, not only one. So, which is it? Do Warden's blindly follow their leadership or do hey also have personal principles?
Wardens do whatever needs to be done to end Blights, sure, but the Warden storyline in DAI was just nonsensical and everyone was turned into reactionary morons. Save the world from Blights but leave it to deal with a demon army, that's totally smart. Maybe they did contact Weisshaupt to make sure that the fake Calling was heard everywhere, or maybe they didn't, because the plot needed them to do something so absolutely pants on head stupid that the choice to exile them actually made sense from a design perspective.
Well, hang on - the war has happened after the events in Inquisition that has shaken up at least a portion of Wardens (and either Hawke or surviving DAI Warden appear to lead the rebels).
It didn't come out of nowhere - some Wardens stopped blindly following their leader AFTER the debacle with Clarel and either the realization they've been fooled (they were hardly first), or that their approach to duty has resulted with them becoming too willing to almost do something awful. They are hardly the only faction doing stuff like that (or experiencing schisms) - like, almost everyone does that, in one way or another. You could argue perhaps that execution of that theme could have been smoother or something, but the Wardens aren't doping anything more nonsensical than many other factions or individuals, for reasons one can understand (fear, emotional manipulation, guilt, blind adherence to certain dogmas, sense of duty, etc). You seem to be way overestimating people or groups of people being able to act rationally, especially in face of a new or unknown threat that - in this regard - came basically from their own heads. Nobody could explain the occurrence of the Calling and only the few Wardens knew of Corypheus.
Also... was there really ever much of a faction to hit with an idiot stick? There were individual Wardens with varying levels of wits between them, but a lot what we know about Wardens is actually conjecture or an incomplete picture.
Our Wardens hardly knew anything about the Order, Alistair barely knew anything more - and he both was grateful to be with Warden to avoid being a Templar and viewed Duncan as a surrogate dad, so he was obviously biased. There was hardly any point of reference after Ostagar. Wardens in DAO were necessarily made to look as heroic as possible (but even there they aren't safe from criticism - again, Riordan and Soldier's Peak), because in a way this was necessary - the truth doesn't necessarily matters. This sentiment was brought forward in force in Inquisition, when Inquisitor and its Inner Circle ponder about how they are viewed by the outside world and whether truth is more important than belief in them that allows them to accomplish their mission.
In other words, Wardens - as many other factions - may simply not be as glorious as they were sometimes built up to be (esp. when it was OUR faction), or they have their limitations or vices, not necessarily stemming from their own foolishness, but how things went for their faction over the course of history. The order has been diminished because people began forgetting about the threat of the Blight (a sentiment expressed by Duncan) and they are effectively left to run on fumes, sense of duty or past glory (or, in case of Weisshaupt, a seeming sense of relevance in local affairs), with many recruits - and not all of them willing, or in Order only to escape something else - hardly knowing anything about the Order, much less the intricacies of the threat they are trying to stop.
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 16:16:58 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
You are quite correct in this assessment; it is what I felt at the time. Plus it ignored the establishment of Vigil's Keep as the main warden base in Ferelden, so if Leliana wanted to know what was up with the Wardens, why not ask there first? Even if the Wardens had gone AWOL, there were ordinary people there as well to do everyday jobs, who could at least have thrown some light on their disappearance. Instead it seemed to be suggested that Clarel had some sort of jurisdiction over Feredlen as well as Orlais. If the false Calling was strong enough to reach the Wardens across Ferelden and Orlais, wouldn't it have reached further afield as well? Morrigan even suggested that there was no limit to Corypheus' power or ability to body hop, so theoretically could have bounced all the way to Warden HQ if there was no one nearer to do so. Of course it was all nonsense but we had to swallow it whole because, you know, the Wardens are a secretive bunch and so whilst we as player know none of this made sense, our PC wouldn't.
Incidentally, in the Last Flight the Wardens up in HQ seem perfectly okay, as do the Wardens elsewhere, with the exception of Clarel in Orlais, from whom they hadn't heard for a while but that was considered okay as this can happen in the normal course of events. So Clarel, Stroud(or whoever is our contact), and the other Wardens affected by the False Calling had not seen fit to contact HQ for their advice on either than phenomenon or their idea of trying to use a demon army to destroy the last two Old Gods. Surely the stupidest idea ever considering that even if demons don't tire or need feeding, the people in command of them do and if the person controlling the demon is killed then you just have a rampant demon on the loose. So why did no one think of pointing this out to Erimond as a big flaw in his plan?
...But their problem WAS, in big part, the secrecy. And they are hardly the only faction having that problem - at some point even Inquisition began struggling with that.
Also... why assume it wasn't pointed out to Erimond or that they didn't look for help in Weisshaupt? Looking everywhere for help kinda implies that they did and Erimond for sure had ways to convince Wardens that there's no flaw, especially thanks to that ginormous demon in the Fade manipulating others via fear or Corypheus secretly lending him his or Orb's power to demonstrate power over demons...
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 16:13:07 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Maybe we should petition Netherrealm Studios to put Solas in the next Kombat Pack for Mortal Kombat 11 as a video game crossover. Then you can perform Fatalities on him.
Well, with Warner Bros putting the studio up for sale & EA being one of the ones sniffing around, it may actually be on the cards...so, which fatality to do on him? hmmm
Kissing to death? XD
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
In the Hunger story the Wardens involved had been summoned to Weisshaupt by messenger and this summons had been sent to all available Wardens. Which suggests something major is brewing at the HQ. Whether this is in connection with problems suggested in the epilogue to DAI or the report about the Horror of Hormack or something else entirely, it does seem likely that Weisshaupt is going to be involved in some way with the plot going forward.
Y'know, I hope whatever divided the Warden ranks has nothing to do with the throne. I'm just kind of tired of solving people's throne disputes. Let it be something related to the Architect or
Surely the stupidest idea ever considering that even if demons don't tire or need feeding, the people in command of them do and if the person controlling the demon is killed then you just have a rampant demon on the loose. So why did no one think of pointing this out to Erimond as a big flaw in his plan?
They would need to be believable people who can think logically in order to do that. And even if they did and he just assuaged their concerns by saying "that would never happen seriously just trust me would I lead you astray" and they believed him, that doesn't make me think they were smart, either.
Plus, the narrative that DAI had about the Wardens was kind of in both places, they were both super secretive and also now apparently everyone knows about the Joining and that people can die from it. Wasn't the secrecy of it something they would kill to protect?
Idk, the Wardens were kind of a mess in DAI which is the reason why
I really like Ramesh, Lesha, Antoine and Evka from Tevinter Nights. They're people who do their best to be reasonable in their situations and who care for their fellow Wardens and they also care about the normal folk but they don't go full savior complex when they try to help someone, either.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust Life's a b***h and beer's a must
In the Hunger story the Wardens involved had been summoned to Weisshaupt by messenger and this summons had been sent to all available Wardens. Which suggests something major is brewing at the HQ. Whether this is in connection with problems suggested in the epilogue to DAI or the report about the Horror of Hormack or something else entirely, it does seem likely that Weisshaupt is going to be involved in some way with the plot going forward.
Y'know, I hope whatever divided the Warden ranks has nothing to do with the throne. I'm just kind of tired of solving people's throne disputes. Let it be something related to the Architect or
Surely the stupidest idea ever considering that even if demons don't tire or need feeding, the people in command of them do and if the person controlling the demon is killed then you just have a rampant demon on the loose. So why did no one think of pointing this out to Erimond as a big flaw in his plan?
They would need to be believable people who can think logically in order to do that. And even if they did and he just assuaged their concerns by saying "that would never happen seriously just trust me would I lead you astray" and they believed him, that doesn't make me think they were smart, either.
Plus, the narrative that DAI had about the Wardens was kind of in both places, they were both super secretive and also now apparently everyone knows about the Joining and that people can die from it. Wasn't the secrecy of it something they would kill to protect?
Idk, the Wardens were kind of a mess in DAI which is the reason why
I really like Ramesh, Lesha, Antoine and Evka from Tevinter Nights. They're people who do their best to be reasonable in their situations and who care for their fellow Wardens and they also care about the normal folk but they don't go full savior complex when they try to help someone, either.
EVERYONE knows about the Joining? I genuinely don't remember, so I need to be reminded - who knows about the Joining, outside of Inquisitor and Inner Circle - the few people you'd actually expect to find out stuff like that, even if only because of their dealings with Wardens AND people they associate themselves with that knew earlier (Leliana, Fiona, Alistair and other Wardens, Hawke, etc...)?
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Also... why assume it wasn't pointed out to Erimond or that they didn't look for help in Weisshaupt? Looking everywhere for help kinda implies that they did and Erimond for sure had ways to convince Wardens that there's no flaw, especially thanks to that ginormous demon in the Fade manipulating others via fear or Corypheus secretly lending him his or Orb's power to demonstrate power over demons...
The bolded part was answered by Last Flight: Clarel did not apply to Weisshaupt and neither did anyone else. Of course it could be argued that it was assumed the First Warden wouldn't be interested, although no matter how embroiled he was in politics, I'm pretty sure he would be bothered by the news the every Warden in Orlais was hearing the Calling. The Last Flight also contradicted the idea that it was effecting Wardens beyond its borders and to be honest what would be the point in banishing them from Orlais if Corypheus could still affect them elsewhere?
I think a better explanation is that Corypheus wasn't just emitting a false calling, which the demon magnified so it could reach further than he could ordinarily, but also was having a subtle control over their thinking process as well. We know he could do this to Warden mages from Legacy and it was the mages that he specifically needed for his plan as only they were capable of summoning the demons. So Erimond came to them with a plan, that any sensible person would see the flaws in, but Corypheus blinded them to those flaws. It probably helped that Warden Commander Clarel was a mage so their commanding officer wasn't thinking straight either.
In which case, the excuse for their behaviour wasn't that they panicked, as was suggested as mitigation by various people, but throughout they were being controlled because Corypheus was that dangerous where Wardens were concerned. To be honest, it wasn't the current First Warden I would be blaming for the situation but the one who was around at the time when he was first imprisoned and didn't put adequate safeguards in place to ensure that no Warden mage ever came within range of the prison and that every Warden Commander in Thedas knew of the danger posed by any of the Ancient Magisters. In fact it would seem that Clarel was aware of Corypheus but not of the possible connection with Erimond, again because Corypheus was ensuring that was the case.
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 17:14:46 GMT by gervaise21
Idk, the Wardens were kind of a mess in DAI which is the reason why
Well to be fair to those in DAI, those in Tevinter Nights no longer had Corypheus around to muddy the waters (See my post above). That is not to say another Ancient Darkspawn Magister might not pop up in the future. Even if we killed the Architect, that still leaves five. The dwarf in the codex claimed to have encountered three of them, one of which may now be eaten/absorbed by one of the others. However, that still leaves two unaccounted for and my money is on them being the High Priests of the last two remaining Old Gods.
...Doesn't the same applies to Anderfels? Their job is to worry about the Blight and not civil unrest and so on and not whether local populace likes them?
If the local populace gets killed off by bandits or darkspawn because no one is protecting them, nothing would really matter anymore, though, would it?
Also, I think we remember this thing playing out differently. Duncan was going on for a while about the Blight seemingly for a while, yet he was the only known Warden who has been going around the country and recruiting - we know some Wardens come from somewhere, but don't know anything about any contingent sent with him from Weisshaupt to help with the effort or even check the rumors. Besides - after the Joining we know why the rest of present Wardens were worried. Because they knew about Archdemon. They could tell that this wasn't just an internal affair of the country.
Duncan was the Warden Commander of Ferelden so it makes sense for him to go around Ferelden to recruit. I don't remember him coming from Weisshaupt anytime close to the beginning of DAO so there would be no reason for any contingents to be with him. Also, the Orlesian Wardens were coming to help because Cailan and Duncan asked them to come and help, not because they offered, though maybe they did, but they still are right next door to Ferelden. We have no reason to believe Duncan sent word to the Anderfels for help, or maybe he told them he asked the Orlesians for help and the rest of the countries should fortify their own ranks and defenses. And the internal affair of the country started the moment Cailan died, Loghain accused the Wardens of killing him and put bounties on their heads and then refused entry into the country to the Orlesian Wardens. Riordan said that the Orlesians pretty much are writing Ferelden off as a lost cause, didn't he?
Also, regardless whether one sees it as a part of political ploy (was it tho?) Cailan and the rest went to Ostagar to face the hordes of Darkspawn, with situation being unclear whether it's a new Blight or not - but certainly looking like it might be. It is why Duncan and whatever Warden she could muster were there - did Duncan and the rest cared about 'people liking them more' or perhaps were they doing exactly what their order was tasked to do?
I think you misunderstood what I meant by "people liking them more". I didn't mean that they fight the Blight in order for that to happen. It was a response to Riordan's "they don't care about the rest of the world as they should" but not flat out saying they don't care about fighting Blights. To me that means that they don't care about the rest of the world in the sense that they stay pretty isolated outside Blights and don't communicate well with others or offer aid if it doesn't have anything to do with Blights or darkspawn and if they did these things people might like them more, even those outside of the Anderfels.
Again, you forget about Duncan. A contingent or recruiting effort could have been done earlier, especially that at least one high-ranking member was exceedingly worried about the Fifth Blight.
They would have gone around telling people that the end was nigh and they should join up? That... would probably have worked in certain circles, actually, but with the reputation of the Wardens as a whole, coupled with how long it had been since the last Blight, how many people would they really have been able to recruit if they insisted and went everywhere waving the Right of Conscription around? They'd've probably been booted out of a few countries just for that.
There is a difference between having influence in specific moment or on a temporary basis, when decisions have to be made. Inquisition has also worked in similar fashion - they led and made decisions in the world embroiled by conflict and chaos. It is different however when a faction, especially one not really built for it, effectively rules over a domain or country and does so on a pretty permanent basis, like Wardens in Anderfels seem to do.
The Wardens seem to be ruling Amaranthine for the long haul, not a short term.
Still, that's sort of my point - where was Weisshaupt in all this? Orlesians supposedly looked everywhere for help and it seems unlikely they didn't seek help in their main HQ.
They looked for help to kill the last Archdemons, not to understand what was going on. No one asked themselves just how was it possible that every single Warden was hearing the Calling, even the ones who probably had barely taken their Joining? I also don't remember Clarel saying anything about Weisshaupt, reaching out to them and being ignored or refused help. I haven't read The Last Flight in years so I don't remember just how accurate this is but I think gervaise21 said that Weisshaupt hadn't heard anything from Clarel in a while? Did she contact them? I don't know.
It didn't come out of nowhere - some Wardens stopped blindly following their leader AFTER the debacle with Clarel and either the realization they've been fooled (they were hardly first), or that their approach to duty has resulted with them becoming too willing to almost do something awful.
Yeah, someone forgot about Soldier's Peak and didn't get the fact that Clarel was doing literally the same thing. If Clarel was just so self-centered that she thought she would succeed where Avernus failed, that's fine, but I still can't fathom how only 1 single person looked at that and thought "hey, maybe we should NOT do the same thing that resulted in everyone in a castle being murdered, just a thought guys".
You seem to be way overestimating people or groups of people being able to act rationally, especially in face of a new or unknown threat that - in this regard - came basically from their own heads. Nobody could explain the occurrence of the Calling and only the few Wardens knew of Corypheus.
Also... was there really ever much of a faction to hit with an idiot stick? There were individual Wardens with varying levels of wits between them, but a lot what we know about Wardens is actually conjecture or an incomplete picture.
Alistair/Stroud/Loghain were hearing the Calling, as well, and yet they were capable of stringing a few coherent thoughts together. No one else, apparently. Even Jon Snow had some support from the Night's Watch when he got shanked.
In other words, Wardens - as many other factions - may simply not be as glorious as they were sometimes built up to be (esp. when it was OUR faction), or they have their limitations or vices, not necessarily stemming from their own foolishness, but how things went for their faction over the course of history.
Idk man, the whole Warden questline in DAI just smells like the devs needed to make them do something so out of the realm of sensible thought and so hard to understand from the standpoint of a sane person that the choice of exiling them would make sense. Exiling them when Blights are still a threat, and from 2 countries no less, is foolhardy (whatever Solas might think about what would happen after killing all the Archdemons, Wardens can still sense the darkspawn and are effective against them due to their resistence to the Blight).
Anyway, this seems to be going on a lot for this thread. I'm disappointed in the way the Wardens were handled in DAI and am hoping they get done cleaner in the next game based on Tevinter Nights, it looks like you pretty much feel they were realistic and think they're shady in the Anderfels. We'll see, I guess, though, like I said in a previous post, I hope it's not related to the throne but to the Architect or
Maybe we should petition Netherrealm Studios to put Solas in the next Kombat Pack for Mortal Kombat 11 as a video game crossover. Then you can perform Fatalities on him.
Well, with Warner Bros putting the studio up for sale & EA being one of the ones sniffing around, it may actually be on the cards...so, which fatality to do on him? hmmm
Ooh, ooh! I had a better ideal: Johnny Cage nut punching Solas.
Also... why assume it wasn't pointed out to Erimond or that they didn't look for help in Weisshaupt? Looking everywhere for help kinda implies that they did and Erimond for sure had ways to convince Wardens that there's no flaw, especially thanks to that ginormous demon in the Fade manipulating others via fear or Corypheus secretly lending him his or Orb's power to demonstrate power over demons...
The bolded part was answered by Last Flight: Clarel did not apply to Weisshaupt and neither did anyone else. Of course it could be argued that it was assumed the First Warden wouldn't be interested, although no matter how embroiled he was in politics, I'm pretty sure he would be bothered by the news the every Warden in Orlais was hearing the Calling.
Wouldn't Clarel's decision suggest otherwise?
The Last Flight also contradicted the idea that it was effecting Wardens beyond its borders and to be honest what would be the point in banishing them from Orlais if Corypheus could still affect them elsewhere?
In DAI? Naturally, it would mean less potential Corypheus' lackeys in region Inquisitor has to directly deal with.
I think a better explanation is that Corypheus wasn't just emitting a false calling, which the demon magnified so it could reach further than he could ordinarily, but also was having a subtle control over their thinking process as well. We know he could do this to Warden mages from Legacy and it was the mages that he specifically needed for his plan as only they were capable of summoning the demons. So Erimond came to them with a plan, that any sensible person would see the flaws in, but Corypheus blinded them to those flaws. It probably helped that Warden Commander Clarel was a mage so their commanding officer wasn't thinking straight either.
Feeding fear and paranoia can effect people or groups even without a giant Fade demon so yes - I think the giant demon who acts through fear definitely has contributed to manipulation. I mean, never mind that we saw Corypheus and his lackeys act through stoking fear, resentment and unrest (Mages, Templars, etc) like a skilled propagandist and schemer he is.
Anyway - I remain curious what has caused mage Wardens to be mindless slaved to Corypheus after some ritual. For some reason I think it may be somehow connected to why Solas has pushed the Fade away from the world? It is quite apparent that non-mages are not susceptible to becoming permanent mind-slaves to Cory and perhaps the reason for it is the Veil blocking their conscious connection to the Fade?
In which case, the excuse for their behaviour wasn't that they panicked, as was suggested as mitigation by various people, but throughout they were being controlled because Corypheus was that dangerous where Wardens were concerned. To be honest, it wasn't the current First Warden I would be blaming for the situation but the one who was around at the time when he was first imprisoned and didn't put adequate safeguards in place to ensure that no Warden mage ever came within range of the prison and that every Warden Commander in Thedas knew of the danger posed by any of the Ancient Magisters. In fact it would seem that Clarel was aware of Corypheus but not of the possible connection with Erimond, again because Corypheus was ensuring that was the case.
Well, I think piling secrets on top on secrets and chains of mistakes or bad decisions has oftentimes been pointed at as one of primary reasons Thedas is how it is, be it when to comes to Wardens or many other factions.
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Anyway - I remain curious what has caused mage Wardens to be mindless slaved to Corypheus after some ritual.
They became mindless slaves to Erimond after the ritual, presumably because it allowed him to link with Corypheus who had always been able to control tainted mages. Back in Legacy, even while in the equivalent of Uthenera, Corypheus was able to affect the minds of Warden mages in the vicinity of his prison. He managed to gain control of Anders for a time, even though you would have thought that Justice could have prevented this. For some reason he didn't control Bethany if she was a Warden but I suppose the writers would argue that she was only a recent recruit or something. He controlled Larius to some extent even though he wasn't a mage because he was so far gone on his Calling and he was influencing the mind of Janeka because she was a tainted mage.
So the ritual may have been necessary to control the Warden mages at a distance but otherwise he could do so with little difficulty. When he first came to light in ancient times, he could influence all Wardens to the extent that they couldn't lift a hand against him, so opted for imprisonment instead. As it turned out, had one of them succeeded in striking at him then, perhaps the Wardens would have known that he could use them to reincarnate, which unlike the Arch-demon merely destroys the soul of the Warden but left Corypheus alive and kicking.
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 21:12:11 GMT by gervaise21
For some reason I think it may be somehow connected to why Solas has pushed the Fade away from the world?
Are you saying that he lied then? His reason for the Veil was simple; it was needed in order to keep the Evanuris trapped wherever he tricked them into going. The main reason Corypheus can affect the minds of all Wardens is the Taint. All the Wardens in Orlais (and possibly Ferelden as well) could hear the Calling that he was emitting, amplified as it was by the Nightmare demon, but he was the source of the Calling, just as the still existent Old Gods/Arch-demons are ordinarily. The reason he is able to particularly control mages is likely because he is a mage himself and either he was a Dreamer before he became tainted or more likely the power of the blight would seem to have given him dreamer-like powers, so he can use the Fade to find their minds, just as a demon does.
They became mindless slaves to Erimond after the ritual, presumably because it allowed him to link with Corypheus who had always been able to control tainted mages. Back in Legacy, even while in the equivalent of Uthenera, Corypheus was able to affect the minds of Warden mages in the vicinity of his prison. He managed to gain control of Anders for a time, even though you would have thought that Justice could have prevented this. For some reason he didn't control Bethany if she was a Warden but I suppose the writers would argue that she was only a recent recruit or something. He controlled Larius to some extent even though he wasn't a mage because he was so far gone on his Calling and he was influencing the mind of Janeka because she was a tainted mage.
So the ritual may have been necessary to control the Warden mages at a distance but otherwise he could do so with little difficulty. When he first came to light in ancient times, he could influence all Wardens to the extent that they couldn't lift a hand against him, so opted for imprisonment instead. As it turned out, had one of them succeeded in striking at him then, perhaps the Wardens would have known that he could use them to reincarnate, which unlike the Arch-demon merely destroys the soul of the Warden but left Corypheus alive and kicking.
Right, though I'll note the purpose of the ritual is twofold:
1) Summon a demon (or demons) and put it/them under the mage's control:
2) Turn the mage into a mindless slave of Corypheus.
Of course, Erimond only told the Grey Wardens about the first part. Thus, Corypheus would gain an army of Wardens AND demons.
Warden-Commander Clarel actually did notice the change in the behaviour of her fellow mages after the ritual, but decided to press forward. I suspect that's why she turns on Erimond so quickly – she already could see he was a treacherous snake.
As for why Corypheus could not influence Grey Warden Bethany/Carver, I suspect they were shielded because of their bloodline. After all, it was Malcolm Hawke's blood that binded Corypheus — one can assume that offered them some protection.
Anyway - I remain curious what has caused mage Wardens to be mindless slaved to Corypheus after some ritual.
They became mindless slaves to Erimond after the ritual, presumably because it allowed him to link with Corypheus who had always been able to control tainted mages. Back in Legacy, even while in the equivalent of Uthenera, Corypheus was able to affect the minds of Warden mages in the vicinity of his prison. He managed to gain control of Anders for a time, even though you would have thought that Justice could have prevented this. For some reason he didn't control Bethany if she was a Warden but I suppose the writers would argue that she was only a recent recruit or something. He controlled Larius to some extent even though he wasn't a mage because he was so far gone on his Calling and he was influencing the mind of Janeka because she was a tainted mage.
So the ritual may have been necessary to control the Warden mages at a distance but otherwise he could do so with little difficulty. When he first came to light in ancient times, he could influence all Wardens to the extent that they couldn't lift a hand against him, so opted for imprisonment instead. As it turned out, had one of them succeeded in striking at him then, perhaps the Wardens would have known that he could use them to reincarnate, which unlike the Arch-demon merely destroys the soul of the Warden but left Corypheus alive and kicking.
Yes, but I'm not talking what he was able to do prior to the ritual or with what ease he was able to control the mages, but a potential reason why he was able to do this in the first place. Why is he able to control tainted mages in the first place and why are non-mages seemingly impervious to such control, ritual or no? It's different to how demons or Dreamers do it.
For some reason I think it may be somehow connected to why Solas has pushed the Fade away from the world?
Are you saying that he lied then? His reason for the Veil was simple; it was needed in order to keep the Evanuris trapped wherever he tricked them into going. The main reason Corypheus can affect the minds of all Wardens is the Taint. All the Wardens in Orlais (and possibly Ferelden as well) could hear the Calling that he was emitting, amplified as it was by the Nightmare demon, but he was the source of the Calling, just as the still existent Old Gods/Arch-demons are ordinarily. The reason he is able to particularly control mages is likely because he is a mage himself and either he was a Dreamer before he became tainted or more likely the power of the blight would seem to have given him dreamer-like powers, so he can use the Fade to find their minds, just as a demon does.
I don't think anything about the Veil, or reasons it was lifted, is simple - and what Solas told us is that he's lifted the Veil so he could prevent Evanuris from destroying the world and he saw no better alternative to the Veil. However, he said nothing about how exactly it prevents Evanuris from destroying the whole world (other that it trapped them somehow) or how they would even destroy that world.
We can only infer that it has something to do with Evanuris being increasingly despotic and hungry for power, death of Mythal and potentially the Blight (and/or Titans), but nothing about why the prison that holds Evanuris also cuts most people's conscious connection to the Fade. Why was pushing away magic from the world necessary?
So I don't see how he's lied, when nothing stops both (and multiple other things) being connected into one big pile of Awful.
Also - you are missing the point. WHY is the Taint affecting tainted mages in a way ot does and why are non-mages unaffected? Mages/Dreamers/demons can still control non-mages if they find their minds in the Fade. So there is something the Taint does to minds that they seem more pliable or easier to get under permanent control to those who master the Blight, at least to an extent Corypheus does. And since Corypheus can be easily suspected to base at least some of his talents on elvhen magic (either one related to the Orb, or one potentially locked with the Blight in the Black City) it's not unlikely that it has something to do with some ways either Evanuris were able to control minds or maybe planned to control it via Blight.
Perhaps this is why we get murals that depict elves with hollow minds and hearts, marked by red vallaslins (color of Blight and blood magic).
Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 21:58:58 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
The Last Flight also contradicted the idea that it was effecting Wardens beyond its borders and to be honest what would be the point in banishing them from Orlais if Corypheus could still affect them elsewhere?
In DAI? Naturally, it would mean less potential Corypheus' lackeys in region Inquisitor has to directly deal with.
You're saying the Inquisitor pretty much would boot Wardens who are still susceptible to Cory's control into other countries and go "not my problem anymore"? That's rather callous and jerky of them.
Yes, but I'm not talking what he was able to do prior to the ritual or with what ease he was able to control the mages, but a potential reason why he was able to do this in the first place. Why is he able to control tainted mages in the first place and why are non-mages seemingly impervious to such control, ritual or no? It's different to how demons or Dreamers do it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but he can't control anyone without the demons, only subtly whisper in their minds like an Archdemon and influence them like that. After a mage summons a demon and binds it to their will, Erimond uses some spell to bind the Warden to Corypheous, in turn. He can't automatically control the demon or the Warden, at least from what I remember from the visual queues in the game. And the non-mages are kind of inconsequential because they get sacrificed to summon the demons.
We can only infer that it has something to do with Evanuris being increasingly despotic and hungry for power, death of Mythal and potentially the Blight (and/or Titans), but nothing about why the prison that holds Evanuris also cuts most people's conscious connection to the Fade. Why was pushing away magic from the world necessary?
I never took it as being necessary but rather more of an unforeseen consequence. The way Solas is acting, I don't think he meant to cut off everyone from the Fade.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust Life's a b***h and beer's a must
Jos Hendriks @sjosz *Discussion of problem that needs solving in a mission I'm building* *I offer a ridiculous joke solution* *others in the call like it and start discussing it seriously*
DragonMelissaBow and arrowJanowiczDragon face deedlite Thinking about how this may eventually indirectly affect me like
Jos Hendriks @sjosz *Discussion of problem that needs solving in a mission I'm building* *I offer a ridiculous joke solution* *others in the call like it and start discussing it seriously*
DragonMelissaBow and arrowJanowiczDragon face deedlite Thinking about how this may eventually indirectly affect me like
lmao
Moral of the story ... never offer a ridiculous joke solution to an EA suit.
John Epler @eplerjc: Having been in this industry for a while, one thing has proven out, time and time again. Success belongs to the team, and failure belongs to leadership. No game is a one-person show, or even close.
Well, with Warner Bros putting the studio up for sale & EA being one of the ones sniffing around, it may actually be on the cards...so, which fatality to do on him? hmmm
Kissing to death? XD
D'vorah is in Mk11...
The last time I took a personality test I failed it.
Also - you are missing the point. WHY is the Taint affecting tainted mages in a way ot does and why are non-mages unaffected? Mages/Dreamers/demons can still control non-mages if they find their minds in the Fade.
I think you are missing my point. Corypheus can affect any tainted creature. In Legacy darkspawn were drawn to his location as they would be to an arch-demon. For some reason no one saw darkspawn surfacing as connected with Corypheus in DAI (I suppose because only Wardens would know this and they were enthralled). Even so, this was largely overlooked by the plot writers as well. Corypheus can affect he minds of all Wardens, that is why all of them heard his false Calling. Whilst demons can control non-mages, on the whole they find it easier to link with the minds of mages, particularly when they are awake as opposed to dreaming. It has been speculated that Corypheus may have had some influence over the minds of mages in Kirkwall because of the proximity of the Vimmark Mountains to the city, but that is only conjecture. The only mages we have definite proof of mind control is that of tainted mages. This can be quite subtle so the mage thinks that any ideas are their own when in fact it is Corypheus controlling their thoughts.
I've checked back in WoT2 and it was actually the First Warden who gave the order to capture Corypheus so they could study him in the hope this might help with the Blight. However, all they discovered was how dangerous he was to Wardens, particularly Warden mages. Of course we should not forget that Corypheus was also a blood magic practitioner even before he went to the Black City and of course blood magic has certain spells of mind control that are unique to that specialism. So it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to see that blood magic combined with tainted blood is what gives him the control over tainted mages because he can find their minds through the Fade even when they are awake.
An interesting additional item in the codex concerning the dealings of the Wardens with him in the first period. Sashamiri mentions studying some ancient weapon that she believes might be helpful against Corypheus. I wonder if this was simply the knowledge of the trap she laid or something else which ultimately proved not possible to use? It is also interesting that the bindings on his prison were made with blood and were sufficiently strong to keep him there the first time for the best part of 1,000 years until it started to break down (although we only have Larius' word for this and he may have been influenced by Corypheus). Once renewed, the binding could only be broken with the same bloodline that made it.
Now Sashamiri believed the prison would be permanent because she locked herself inside and once she died there would be no one with her bloodline to break the seals. I'm wondering if the ancient weapon that she had been studying was in some way connected with the elven ritual that was used in raising the Veil and placing the bindings on the prison of the Evanuris. The reason that Corypheus was originally instructed by Dumat to use a massive elven blood sacrifice to break into the Black City was because it was a massive elven blood sacrifice that sealed it away in the first place.
Last Edit: Jun 26, 2020 11:26:57 GMT by gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Jos Hendriks @sjosz *Discussion of problem that needs solving in a mission I'm building* *I offer a ridiculous joke solution* *others in the call like it and start discussing it seriously*
DragonMelissaBow and arrowJanowiczDragon face deedlite Thinking about how this may eventually indirectly affect me like
lmao
Moral of the story ... never offer a ridiculous joke solution to an EA suit.
Ummm. I'm pretty sure this is a quest/level developer discussing with their team; not someone from EA. Unless of course your comment is being sarcastic.
Moral of the story ... never offer a ridiculous joke solution to an EA suit.
Ummm. I'm pretty sure this is a quest/level developer discussing with their team; not someone from EA. Unless of course your comment is being sarcastic.
Yeah wow, sometimes I forget that people really overestimate how often software studios report up to the mothership. EA is almost certainly getting an extremely top line view of things, it’s not physically possible for them to micromanage their giant slate of properties.
I mean, Bioware is our favorite child, but EA does have a couple other studios to think about.
MistressTrevelyan @muirnara All hands meeting you say?
Emily (aka Domino) Taylor pentapod It's a regular thing, don't get too excited No sexy gloomy tree romances were discussed
Imperator Furiåsa @devilkitten If you want to get picky, we did mention the gloomy tree romance in the slack channel. Or at least @norseartemis did.
Gabe Heiland @norseartemis The fans said they wanted the treemance and my job is to stand up for the data. So.
Imperator Furiåsa @devilkitten It's not JUST the fans. Give a BioWare dev a romance option and.... you know. I just hope our dear writers are prepared for dendrophiles.
Sheryl Chee @sherylchee We're always prepared. The writing team celebrates love in all its myriad forms.
John Epler @eplerjc Our writing team is never afraid to branch out.
Gabe Heiland @norseartemis Dammit, you woke the writers again! We just stemmed the tide of puns.
Destroyer of Fictional Worlds! And so damn tired. @arone_le_bray It's okay, their bark is worse than their bite.
(and either Hawke or surviving DAI Warden appear to lead the rebels).
Ummm. I'm pretty sure this is a quest/level developer discussing with their team; not someone from EA. Unless of course your comment is being sarcastic.
