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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 1, 2020 17:49:00 GMT
Blood magic is inherently violent - in fact, the amount of energy produced is proportionate to the amount of violence used when casting a spell using blood magic.
Not necessarily. There is that codex that gives the instance of someone using blood magic to heal a person of an incurable wasting disease. Okay, apparently they sacrificed their own life in doing so, but that hardly qualifies as violent as it was seem something they did willingly out of love, knowing the likely outcome for themselves.
Solas is correct when he says that blood magic is just another way to do magic, which he does not condemn like he does blight magic. The problem is, as Dorian explains, the temptation is always there to use just a little bit more to gain greater power and because the person isn't willing to pay the price themselves, they force it on others, which is where it becomes violent and abusive.
Of course, I would now say the same of the use of lyrium. Did the titan give up its blood willingly? Really anything that artificially increases the power of the mage from what they have naturally should be classed as wrong, since all methods would appear to use blood, whether regular beings, titans or blighted.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 1, 2020 17:51:26 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesDoes anyone know of a decent videos showing overheard conversations as you walk by in Dragon Age: Inquisition? Stuff like in Haven, the healers talking, or Charter smacking down the young idiot guy? Unexpectedly, the world seems to have not recorded them all. Adri || BLM @dorkstoiseYou got me about to spend another 1000 hours in DAI to find whatever this is you’re alluding to. If this ends up being a “just kidding” kinda tweet.. Maker help me lol Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIt is genuinely super really not for a deep huge reveal. I just wanted to use it for a funny example in something I was writing.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 1, 2020 19:01:58 GMT
Blood magic is inherently violent - in fact, the amount of energy produced is proportionate to the amount of violence used when casting a spell using blood magic.
Not necessarily. There is that codex that gives the instance of someone using blood magic to heal a person of an incurable wasting disease. Okay, apparently they sacrificed their own life in doing so, but that hardly qualifies as violent as it was seem something they did willingly out of love, knowing the likely outcome for themselves.
He still had to slash his wrists or stab himself in the gut to cast the spell. Thus, violence was still involved. Also:
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2020 19:18:40 GMT
It appears as if since DAI, most kinds of magic (or abilities in general?) are put into a "good" or "bad" (=blood magic) box. I'm not sure if this type of Twitter revelation was discussed in the writing team, but it does not make much sense to me, as isn't blood magic usually cast from blood or manipulates blood? So we might include Phylacteries, the Warden's Joining shenanigans and possibly even Reaver abilities. Necromancy though... it just draws a (weak) spirit into a dead body to animate it. No blood required to cast, neither Reanimate in DAO nor Dorian's spells need HP to cast, nor does it manipulate blood, unless one takes moving the corpse as that, but that's what the spirit is for. Blood magic doesn't draw power from blood or its manipulation, but from concept of sacrifice and suffering. Also - I don't really see how in DAI most of magic abilities are put into 'good' and 'bad' categories, when people accepting blood magic so long as it isn't thought of as blood magic kinda speaks of the opposite.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 1, 2020 19:58:37 GMT
He still had to slash his wrists or stab himself in the gut to cast the spell. Thus, violence was still involved. Blood magic doesn't draw power from blood or its manipulation, but from concept of sacrifice and suffering
This is what I have a problem with. Solas says that blood magic is inherently no different to other forms of magic. When my Lavellan states it is evil, he disapproves, apparently totally ignoring the violence and suffering aspect of the magic and the fact that the greater it is, the more powerful the magic will be. My Lavellan was thinking of the countless number of elves who suffered down the years to allow blood magic to be performed. Does Solas really think there is nothing wrong in inflicting pain and suffering simply to acquire more power? Surely that is the thinking of the Evanuris?
However, the writers do maintain that anything in WoT cannot be taken as the absolute truth because it is the work of an in-world scholar who may not know the real state of affairs having been influenced by their upbringing and education in their particular area. So in that case, is the statement: “The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes”, the true nature of blood magic or simply the opinion of the scholar who has likely been influenced by southern Chantry teaching on the matter?
Otherwise I would necessarily need to condemn Merrill, Dorian and Solas out of hand because none of them would condemn blood magic and think there is nothing inherently wrong with it but merely how some people use it.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2020 20:56:41 GMT
He still had to slash his wrists or stab himself in the gut to cast the spell. Thus, violence was still involved. Blood magic doesn't draw power from blood or its manipulation, but from concept of sacrifice and suffering This is what I have a problem with. Solas says that blood magic is inherently no different to other forms of magic. When my Lavellan states it is evil, he disapproves, apparently totally ignoring the violence and suffering aspect of the magic and the fact that the greater it is, the more powerful the magic will be. My Lavellan was thinking of the countless number of elves who suffered down the years to allow blood magic to be performed. Does Solas really think there is nothing wrong in inflicting pain and suffering simply to acquire more power? Surely that is the thinking of the Evanuris?
However, the writers do maintain that anything in WoT cannot be taken as the absolute truth because it is the work of an in-world scholar who may not know the real state of affairs having been influenced by their upbringing and education in their particular area. So in that case, is the statement: “The more violent the pain or death used in blood magic, the more powerful the spell becomes”, the true nature of blood magic or simply the opinion of the scholar who has likely been influenced by southern Chantry teaching on the matter?
Otherwise I would necessarily need to condemn Merrill, Dorian and Solas out of hand because none of them would condemn blood magic and think there is nothing inherently wrong with it but merely how some people use it.
...Did elves suffer specifically because of blood magic or because of prejudice that made them victims of many vicious things, not just specifically blood magic? I mean, standard magic has also been used to do many awful things (including many awful things to hurt and subjugate elves) - something people like Vivienne and other Chantry folk like to bring up every time. Also, Solas is deeply against what is done to mages on the South yet he doesn't say 'blood magic is evil BECAUSE PHYLACTERIES', 'cause it's not blood magic in and of itself that hurts and confines mages, but the Chantry and prejudice it fomented among the populace. So I can't say I agree with characterizing anything that has something to do with suffering or violence as evil, I guess? I mean... our PCs and their friends dish out a lot of standard violence in all DA games, but - generally at least - most of that violence is justified, as it's done (theoretically, at least) for a right cause. Or we hurt ourselves - emotionally or physically - in order to help others, entirely aside from it being part of blood magic spell. So I - apparently similarly to Solas - don't really see a problem in magic being fueled by pain and sacrifice per se, though with a caveat that it's a type of magic or action that should be used a lot more responsibly than others and not where other options are available.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 1, 2020 21:43:57 GMT
This is what I have a problem with. Solas says that blood magic is inherently no different to other forms of magic. When my Lavellan states it is evil, he disapproves, apparently totally ignoring the violence and suffering aspect of the magic and the fact that the greater it is, the more powerful the magic will be. I'm going to hit you with a stunning revelation that will no doubt shock you to your core and make you question everything you've known about Dragon Age up until this point:
Solas isn't right about everything. Oh, I know he's got opinions about everything, and he's absolutely going to share them with you whether you want to hear about them or not. But he's not a blood mage and he actually doesn't know a great deal about blood magic. I've had him in my party when you first discover the Occulara — he wasn't even aware that such a device was possible. I suspect this is another case of Solas showing his cultural bias — we now know with some degree of certainty that blood magic was practiced by the ancient elves, and therefore it is cool and awesome in Solas' eyes. After all, they were doing it before everyone else.Dorian is a better expert on this subject; whether or not necromancy is the same as blood magic (which I think relies on a really broad definition of the latter), he's certainly spent his entire life around actual blood mages and has been the target of blood magic. And Dorian states very plainly that while blood magic is not inherently evil, using it puts one on a slippery slope towards becoming evil. "The problem is what's permitted only gets you so much power. But what if you need more? You always need more. That's where we get into sacrifices and demon summoning."
There's also the fact that we don't entirely know how blood magic works. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that anyone who tries using blood magic for GOOD REASONS ONLY has the whole endeavour blow up in their face — there may be more to the mechanics of blood magic than we realize.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 1, 2020 22:26:30 GMT
This is what I have a problem with. Solas says that blood magic is inherently no different to other forms of magic. When my Lavellan states it is evil, he disapproves, apparently totally ignoring the violence and suffering aspect of the magic and the fact that the greater it is, the more powerful the magic will be. I'm going to hit you with a stunning revelation that will no doubt shock you to your core and make you question everything you've known about Dragon Age up until this point:
Solas isn't right about everything. Oh, I know he's got opinions about everything, and he's absolutely going to share them with you whether you want to hear about them or not. But he's not a blood mage and he actually doesn't know a great deal about blood magic. I've had him in my party when you first discover the Occulara — he wasn't even aware that such a device was possible. I suspect this is another case of Solas showing his cultural bias — we now know with some degree of certainty that blood magic was practiced by the ancient elves, and therefore it is cool and awesome in Solas' eyes. After all, they were doing it before everyone else.Dorian is a better expert on this subject; whether or not necromancy is the same as blood magic (which I think relies on a really broad definition of the latter), he's certainly spent his entire life around actual blood mages and has been the target of blood magic. And Dorian states very plainly that while blood magic is not inherently evil, using it puts one on a slippery slope towards becoming evil. "The problem is what's permitted only gets you so much power. But what if you need more? You always need more. That's where we get into sacrifices and demon summoning."
There's also the fact that we don't entirely know how blood magic works. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that anyone who tries using blood magic for GOOD REASONS ONLY has the whole endeavour blow up in their face — there may be more to the mechanics of blood magic than we realize.
He does state that he thinks blood magic is okay as long as it doesn't become a "crutch" it is a tool [insert Varric's "somebody's certainly a tool"] to him. So, he must have had experiences with bad blood mages. Ironically, both he and Cory are/where trying to restore a period of time lost to history. So of course he is going to have a different view of blood magic.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 1, 2020 22:42:20 GMT
Well, what does Solas mean when he says there's nothing wrong with using blood magic so long as it remains a tool, not a crutch or a passion? Does that mean he'd be perfectly OK with occasionally sacrificing people so long as a blood mage didn't constantly resort to sacrifices?
And of course, the answer is "yes," since he constantly uses people as tools. And that's why I don't give a shit what Solas has to say about the ethics of blood magic.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Jul 1, 2020 22:57:36 GMT
Well, what does Solas mean when he says there's nothing wrong with using blood magic so long as it remains a tool, not a crutch or a passion? Does that mean he'd be perfectly OK with occasionally sacrificing people so long as a blood mage didn't constantly resort to sacrifices? And of course, the answer is "yes," since he constantly uses people as tools. And that's why I don't give a shit what Solas has to say about the ethics of blood magic. You can use your own blood or as Dorian puts it "a willing participant. What's the harm?"
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2020 23:12:02 GMT
This is what I have a problem with. Solas says that blood magic is inherently no different to other forms of magic. When my Lavellan states it is evil, he disapproves, apparently totally ignoring the violence and suffering aspect of the magic and the fact that the greater it is, the more powerful the magic will be. I'm going to hit you with a stunning revelation that will no doubt shock you to your core and make you question everything you've known about Dragon Age up until this point:
Solas isn't right about everything. Oh, I know he's got opinions about everything, and he's absolutely going to share them with you whether you want to hear about them or not. But he's not a blood mage and he actually doesn't know a great deal about blood magic. I've had him in my party when you first discover the Occulara — he wasn't even aware that such a device was possible. I suspect this is another case of Solas showing his cultural bias — we now know with some degree of certainty that blood magic was practiced by the ancient elves, and therefore it is cool and awesome in Solas' eyes. After all, they were doing it before everyone else.Dorian is a better expert on this subject; whether or not necromancy is the same as blood magic (which I think relies on a really broad definition of the latter), he's certainly spent his entire life around actual blood mages and has been the target of blood magic. And Dorian states very plainly that while blood magic is not inherently evil, using it puts one on a slippery slope towards becoming evil. "The problem is what's permitted only gets you so much power. But what if you need more? You always need more. That's where we get into sacrifices and demon summoning."
There's also the fact that we don't entirely know how blood magic works. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that anyone who tries using blood magic for GOOD REASONS ONLY has the whole endeavour blow up in their face — there may be more to the mechanics of blood magic than we realize.
While I agree with you that Solas isn't right about everything, I'd take his opinion on magic more seriously than some other people, including accomplished mages of this time, like Dorian (also - necromancy as blood magic doesn't rely on a 'broad definition of the letter' - it is what the writers of the series tell us that it is). Solas isn't just a person from different time period. He clearly knows more about magic and Fade, be it either because he's hailing from a time when this stuff was effectively part of the world and Elevnhan was OBVIOUSLY well-more advanced in terms of utilizing or researching magic - or because he's spend probably a better part of his life living in and studying the Fade, with Fade = literally the stuff magic is made of in this world. Also... him not being blood mage doesn't mean he doesn't understand its principles. Like... he is probably the person that knows not only how or why blood magic works, but how magic works in many other ways that are unclear to most Thedosians today (+ potentially a lot of magic or how the world is how it is now is because of either actions of Evanuris, Elvenhan or his own).
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Post by Solas on Jul 1, 2020 23:17:20 GMT
Idk if Mike Gamble is on DA or not, he's project director of "unannounced", but he's tweeted saying BW are looking to recruit a Technical Director.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2020 23:33:56 GMT
Idk if Mike Gamble is on DA or not, he's project director of "unannounced", but he's tweeted saying BW are looking to recruit a Technical Director. I think he's on some ME-related project.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 1, 2020 23:40:34 GMT
Well, what does Solas mean when he says there's nothing wrong with using blood magic so long as it remains a tool, not a crutch or a passion? Does that mean he'd be perfectly OK with occasionally sacrificing people so long as a blood mage didn't constantly resort to sacrifices? And of course, the answer is "yes," since he constantly uses people as tools. And that's why I don't give a shit what Solas has to say about the ethics of blood magic. Apples and oranges. "Using people as tools" and "being perfectly OK with occasionally sacrificing people so long as a blood mage didn't constantly resort to sacrifices" can't be easily conflated, especially that in his example of blood magic being used for good he's said that a mage wounded herself and used own blood to heal someone.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 1, 2020 23:51:04 GMT
You can use your own blood or as Dorian puts it "a willing participant. What's the harm?" ”The problem is what's permitted only gets you so much power. But what if you need more? You always need more. That's where we get into sacrifices and demon summoning." There's also the fact that we don't entirely know how blood magic works. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that anyone who tries using blood magic for GOOD REASONS ONLY has the whole endeavour blow up in their face. There may be more to the mechanics of blood magic than we realize. Here we go round the mulberry bush ...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 1, 2020 23:58:28 GMT
There's also the fact that we don't entirely know how blood magic works. I don't think it's entirely coincidental that anyone who tries using blood magic for GOOD REASONS ONLY has the whole endeavour blow up in their face — there may be more to the mechanics of blood magic than we realize.
Merrill used blood magic for good reasons only, and nothing blew up in her face because of the mechanics of blood magic. Quite the contrary, it was everyone's fears that it would that caused them to bring misfortune onto themselves, but the others' prejudices against it blamed her and it for those. If they just trusted her, none of the bad things that happened would have even if she still used blood magic.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 0:00:31 GMT
Merrill used blood magic for good reasons only, and nothing blew up in her face because of the mechanics of blood magic. Keeper Marethari died and her clan ostracized/tried to kill her. Also, everything she did was for nothing. If she had to do it all over again, do you think she would?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2020 0:01:52 GMT
Merrill used blood magic for good reasons only, and nothing blew up in her face because of the mechanics of blood magic. Keeper Marethari died and her clan ostracized/tried to kill her. Also, everything she did was for nothing. Did you read what I said? None of those were due to the mechanics of blood magic, but people's hysteria and superstitions about it. If they trusted her and she used blood magic, none of those things would have happened. The blood mage is the only innocent and guileless one in that whole fiasco.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 0:11:40 GMT
None of those were due to the mechanics of blood magic I’m not so certain. How did the clan lose all its halla? Why did Marethari decide after seven years of waiting to suddenly allow herself to be possessed? Merrill tried to limit the consequences of her blood magic to herself, and yet somehow her entire clan (nearly) ended up paying the price. We can chalk that up to individual decisions, but what if Merrill’s goal demanded a greater sacrifice than Merrill’s life?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2020 0:17:14 GMT
None of those were due to the mechanics of blood magic I’m not so certain. How did the clan lose all its halla? Why did Marethari decide after seven years of waiting to suddenly allow herself to be possessed? I think she was being affected by Audacity long before she actually got possessed. In fact she was probably the actual target from the start. Audacity is a pride demon, so it would be far more interested in possessing a Keeper who leads a clan over a First. And since Merrill might detect what it was trying to do, it made Marethari and by extension the clan fear and hate her so they'd never listen to her warnings. That deception also allowed it to possess Marethari easier, using the love and protecting feeling Marethari had for Merrill against her by sacrificing herself for an empty threat. Merrill tried to limit the consequences of her blood magic to herself, and yet somehow her entire clan (nearly) ended up paying the price. We can chalk that up to individual decisions, but what if Merrill’s goal demanded a greater sacrifice than Merrill’s life? Then Merrill wouldn't have done it, or found some other way to pay that price wuthout requiring the blood or suffering of others. She was adamant about this, as we see throughout her questline. I agree with you that Solas doesn't know everything, yet this is one thing I will agree with him on since it's proven. I do laugh at how much of the fanase rejected Merrill's argument yet adopt Solas's despite it being the exact same defense.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 0:26:04 GMT
Then Merrill wouldn't have done it, or found some other way to pay that price wuthout requiring the blood or suffering of others. You misunderstand me: I’m saying *the magic itself* rejected Merrill’s attempt to limit the consequences to herself. It demanded a greater sacrifice than her life.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 2, 2020 0:30:40 GMT
Then Merrill wouldn't have done it, or found some other way to pay that price wuthout requiring the blood or suffering of others. You misunderstand me: I’m saying *the magic itself* rejected Merrill’s attempt to limit the consequences to herself. It demanded a greater sacrifice than her life. Then I still disagree, since magic itself isn’t sentient. We also would have seen evidence of that if it was affecting her in that way, like her becoming more ruthless and yet she’s the most opposed to bloodshed of our group throughout the game even at he end.
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Post by The Elder King on Jul 2, 2020 1:09:23 GMT
I'm not the biggest fan of blood magic in general, but Merrill is a good example of how a blood mage doesn't have to be a killer, an assassin, or someone that uses sacrifices in the use of blood magic. I do agree with Hanako that she also wasn't corrupted by the use of it, as she's against violence and ruthless methods in general. And while she sometimes seems too naive when talking about demons, she's savy enough to acquire help when dealing with it later on, as she didn't fully trust it. The same can't be said for Marethari. While I understand the reasoning behind her sacrifice, it's a dumb sacrifice. The demon, once in her body, could've easily slaughtered the whole clan and also killed Merrill. Same goes with how her clansmen treated Merrill. I understand being scared and fearful of blood magic, but running away from Merrill towards a varterral is simply moronic.
Now, I don't think the self control Merrill shown is something that most mages will be able to have in her shoes, and we can argue if the use of blood magic was necessary or not, but those are different issues. She certainly shown more caution and common sense then Anders, in regards of their deals with forbidden magic.
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Post by necrowaif on Jul 2, 2020 5:28:59 GMT
Then I still disagree, since magic itself isn’t sentient. I would simply say that blood magic is operating by a set of rules that mortals don’t understand, which is why all attempts to use blood magic for good always blow up in the user’s face. Just ask the griffons.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Jul 2, 2020 5:41:05 GMT
None of those were due to the mechanics of blood magic I’m not so certain. How did the clan lose all its halla? Why did Marethari decide after seven years of waiting to suddenly allow herself to be possessed? Merrill tried to limit the consequences of her blood magic to herself, and yet somehow her entire clan (nearly) ended up paying the price. We can chalk that up to individual decisions, but what if Merrill’s goal demanded a greater sacrifice than Merrill’s life? You're getting into cursed child territory here. Unless Merrill killed the halla for her blood magic, blaming her for them seems like scapegoating. Much less blaming her for everything else. Marethari made her own choice. It was a stupid one.
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