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Post by colfoley on Mar 2, 2019 1:18:15 GMT
Just the villain bit. Getting the impression he's had arguments with people about how to classify Solas.
Not really. I personally hope he's not a villain at all. Well at the least he is going to be an antagonist and the word 'villain' and 'antagonist' is very close on the spectrum. I mean the word villain itself seems to have a wide variance in meaning depending on who you are talking to, from 'villain' being 'muhaha I will kill you all *twirls mustache*' to 'meh I am just going to fight you now.'
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 2, 2019 1:40:01 GMT
Not really. I personally hope he's not a villain at all. Well at the least he is going to be an antagonist and the word 'villain' and 'antagonist' is very close on the spectrum. I mean the word villain itself seems to have a wide variance in meaning depending on who you are talking to, from 'villain' being 'muhaha I will kill you all *twirls mustache*' to 'meh I am just going to fight you now.' His plan involves genocide. He’s a villain.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Mar 2, 2019 2:11:11 GMT
Well, they knew eventually he'd be seen as a villain and they wanted to avoid the bisexual thing being associated with that. Apparently. (Though I think they over thought it. Should just be that Solas is straight b/c Solas is straight, imo.)
Agree. This explanation about avoiding tropes- I don't really buy it, tbh. Like they made Bull pan, and he is clearly a villain if remains loyal to the Qun. I remember how Laidlaw said on Pax few years ago that Weekes created Solas with specificaly female Lavellan in mind, so I don't really get why mention tropes at all, if from the start Weeks had clear idea how that romance will work. Plus making someone sertaing sexuality to avoid backlash doesn't really sit well with me, that's just putting way too much accent on said character preferences.
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Post by melbella on Mar 2, 2019 2:38:01 GMT
Plus making someone sertaing sexuality to avoid backlash doesn't really sit well with me, that's just putting way too much accent on said character preferences. People don't hate Anders because he's bi/player-sexual. They hate him because he blew up the friggin' Chantry! At that point, who he's interested in banging is irrelevant. Same for Solas - he wants to destroy the current world for his fantasy reboot of Elvhen Glory. Who he Fade-tongues in his spare time doesn't really matter.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 2, 2019 3:23:41 GMT
Well, they knew eventually he'd be seen as a villain and they wanted to avoid the bisexual thing being associated with that. Apparently. (Though I think they over thought it. Should just be that Solas is straight b/c Solas is straight, imo.)
Agree. This explanation about avoiding tropes- I don't really buy it, tbh. Like they made Bull pan, and he is clearly a villain if remains loyal to the Qun. I remember how Laidlaw said on Pax few years ago that Weekes created Solas with specificaly female Lavellan in mind, so I don't really get why mention tropes at all, if from the start Weeks had clear idea how that romance will work. Plus making someone sertaing sexuality to avoid backlash doesn't really sit well with me, that's just putting way too much accent on said character preferences. Let's not ignore the context. Bull is certainly not in any position that would be comparable to Solas's - in fact Weekes made it very clear that Bull remains loyal to the Qun only if we make a certain decision (sacrifice Chargers or won't help him at all). Iron Bull simply isn't as pivotal of a character as Solas is. There's also no dissonance between Weekes proposing the romance for female Lavellans and then writers going back and forth between different ideas for it and so on (which, btw. they've put in the game only after they delayed the game for a year). Irrespective of the current topic, the idea that the first idea is the best or correct or whatever just ain't true. The creative process is usually messy and winding and it will be even more true for something that requires a large team to create, like Bioware's RPGs. None of the writers there write in a vacuum.
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Post by Hrungr on Mar 2, 2019 4:04:57 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes This month marks fourteen years for me at BioWare. Days like today, with this team of compassionate shit-giving geniuses, are why I’m still here. Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 2, 2019 4:15:12 GMT
Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see. Um. Ok? I'm not trying to read doom and gloom into things, but that's not very... confident. Like... we have a teaser and its been 4 years. Shouldn't he not be "hoping" we see it at this point, and instead be all "I can't wait for the world to see it! (in 2055!)" or something similar?
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Post by Gilli on Mar 2, 2019 4:32:44 GMT
Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see. Um. Ok? I'm not trying to read doom and gloom into things, but that's not very... confident. Like... we have a teaser and its been 4 years. Shouldn't he not be "hoping" we see it at this point, and instead be all "I can't wait for the world to see it! (in 2055!)" or something similar? I think he means his team, not the game.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 2, 2019 4:40:12 GMT
Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see. Um. Ok? I'm not trying to read doom and gloom into things, but that's not very... confident. Like... we have a teaser and its been 4 years. Shouldn't he not be "hoping" we see it at this point, and instead be all "I can't wait for the world to see it! (in 2055!)" or something similar? Weekes was always very careful about any things that could be read as even a hint of announcing anything future DA-related, so he has always used such language, regardless of how certain we can be that stuff is happening.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 2, 2019 4:52:53 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesThis month marks fourteen years for me at BioWare. Days like today, with this team of compassionate shit-giving geniuses, are why I’m still here. Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see. David Gaider @davidgaiderWell done, sir! May your best years lie ahead. ❤ Courtney Woods @courtneywoods Ack! I didn’t realize it was your Bioversary! Congrats!! I’m so honored and lucky to be on your team! Jo Berry @joanna_Berry Happy BioBirthday! John Epler @eplerjc Congrats, my friend. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope to keep it going for many more.
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Post by Walter Black on Mar 2, 2019 14:30:52 GMT
I just hope this doesn't mean the writers are committed to making only straight villains, or denying LGBT characters any depth, complexity, or context. "Sorry Maevaris, you're too delicate to explore any moral grey areas, and you're definitely not cool/intelligent/determined enough to be a Big Bad" .
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Post by ellawyn on Mar 2, 2019 16:13:48 GMT
Is there a way to win with this stuff, exactly? I feel like no matter what anyone does, someone always comes out of the woodwork to explain why it's problematic and Bioware is obviously full of bigots.
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Post by mfr001 on Mar 2, 2019 18:37:24 GMT
In the discussion above, I think it is unwise to include DA2. The game had a good plot, but a lot of the implementation was spoiled because of the "We want it now!" instruction from above. Hence the use of the same cave layout for all of the underground parts, and the feeling thatall of the romance options would not have blinked an eyelid if the PC had been Corypheus. On a different train of thought, are we really sure that Cory Baby is dead this time? Otherwise DA4 could be we'll let you two fight it out, make a lot of gold selling tickets, and stitch up the winner. (Apologies, my brain has gone out of control. It likes to do that now and again.)
Edit: Start a sentence with a capital.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 2, 2019 21:22:06 GMT
On a different train of thought, are we really sure that Cory Baby is dead this time? Otherwise DA4 could be we'll let you two fight it out, make a lot of gold selling tickets, and stitch up the winner. Surely the stitch up was Solas? We think we've dealt with the problem of someone tampering with the Veil and then discover he was only the patsy of Solas. However, can we be sure that anyone is really dead in the world of Thedas? I'm firmly of the opinion that the wife of Hessarian was aware that people can come back, particularly if co-habiting with a spirit, which is why she insisted on burning Andraste. As for what happens if you are left in the Fade, according to WoT2 the general opinion is that as Corypheus had lost faith in everything, including himself, the moment before he was banished to the Fade, the self doubt would have meant he would not have survived in his physical form and apparently many mages had sought the Fade for evidence of him without success. Of course it is possible his spirit could have survived and return at a later stage but with no conscious memory of who he was.
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Post by thats1evildude on Mar 3, 2019 4:14:34 GMT
On a different train of thought, are we really sure that Cory Baby is dead this time? Pretty sure. They had a little write-up in World of Thedas explaining how he was consumed by the Fade. He has not re-appeared physically elsewhere in Thedas and mages have combed the Fade looking for signs of him, but have found nothing.
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Post by Zemgus on Mar 3, 2019 6:57:38 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesThis month marks fourteen years for me at BioWare. Days like today, with this team of compassionate shit-giving geniuses, are why I’m still here. Hope someday it’s something the world gets to see. This and some other tweets of his makes it sound like he's likely gonna be out after DA4 is finished.
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Post by Kaibe on Mar 3, 2019 8:45:32 GMT
On a different train of thought, are we really sure that Cory Baby is dead this time?
Edit: Start a sentence with a capital.
Um, Cory Baby?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 4, 2019 5:48:56 GMT
On a different train of thought, are we really sure that Cory Baby is dead this time?
Edit: Start a sentence with a capital.
Um, Cory Baby? Cory Baby, won't you please burn down a Chantry, For me, I've been an awful good girl. Cory Baby. So please tear down the Veil tonight. (Do do, do do, do do do do)
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 5, 2019 21:29:10 GMT
Solas is a villain(for destroying the old world) and a hero (for attempting to restore it)
As for the romance, i guess given his views of modern elves i always thought it odd that he was elf specific.
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Post by ellawyn on Mar 6, 2019 4:14:06 GMT
Solas is a villain(for destroying the old world) and a hero (for attempting to restore it) As for the romance, i guess given his views of modern elves i always thought it odd that he was elf specific. The culminating scene of his romance revolves around the Vallaslin and the removal (or acceptance) thereof. Which maybe isn't a huge thing plot-wise (Theoretically, Solas could've romanced a non-elf and lead them out there and told them some completely different bullshit.), but it's vital thematically for a host of reasons. Particularly, how it ties in with Solas' own struggle of old vs. new, preservation vs. adaptation and how it's a ritual that Fen'Harel was famous for.
The devs have said before that Inquisition's story was supposed to be about faith, and it's not surprising we have figures like Cassandra or Leliana, people struggling to find faith in their god. But Solas' story is a god struggling to find faith in his people. And the climax of his romance is finding that faith in Lavellan, evidenced when he offers to take up his (reluctantly donned) mantle of godhood to perform this sacred rite for her. All the Andrastian faithful in Inquisition ask and wonder and wait for their god to show a sign of his attention, his love. But Lavellan's god is the only one who gives it, and he gives it to her alone.
S'kinda hard to find something comparable for a non-Dalish, nevermind a non-elf.
...okay I'll pack up my literary analysis of video game smooch-routes now.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Mar 6, 2019 4:57:49 GMT
Solas is a villain(for destroying the old world) and a hero (for attempting to restore it) As for the romance, i guess given his views of modern elves i always thought it odd that he was elf specific. The culminating scene of his romance revolves around the Vallaslin and the removal (or acceptance) thereof. Which maybe isn't a huge thing plot-wise (Theoretically, Solas could've romanced a non-elf and lead them out there and told them some completely different bullshit.), but it's vital thematically for a host of reasons. Particularly, how it ties in with Solas' own struggle of old vs. new, preservation vs. adaptation and how it's a ritual that Fen'Harel was famous for.
The devs have said before that Inquisition's story was supposed to be about faith, and it's not surprising we have figures like Cassandra or Leliana, people struggling to find faith in their god. But Solas' story is a god struggling to find faith in his people. And the climax of his romance is finding that faith in Lavellan, evidenced when he offers to take up his (reluctantly donned) mantle of godhood to perform this sacred rite for her. All the Andrastian faithful in Inquisition ask and wonder and wait for their god to show a sign of his attention, his love. But Lavellan's god is the only one who gives it, and he gives it to her alone.
S'kinda hard to find something comparable for a non-Dalish, nevermind a non-elf.
...okay I'll pack up my literary analysis of video game smooch-routes now.
I'd disagree that he's taking up a mantle of godhood to do that ritual. He was known to do that vallaslin removal when he was leading his rebellion, precisely when he was saying the Evanuris were *not* gods, himself included. It wasn't a religious thing for him. It was actually facilitating a rejection of faith in elven gods as a concept.
Now, he gets remembered as one of the gods regardless, true. But its his presence among the "creators" that stays remembered, not his rebellion and essentially atheistic movement.
Tangential thought, but: It kinda reminds me of the little I know of Warhammer 40k and the God-Emperor of mankind, if that means anything to anybody here? Staunchly atheistic, super powerful and immortal human man who preaches the value of rationalism and basically rejects and eradicates all religion. Then he has a bad battle, goes into a coma, and a religion pops up around him worshiping him as a god cus that's what a society left without his influence needs him to be to rally around him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 6, 2019 18:36:32 GMT
And the climax of his romance is finding that faith in Lavellan, evidenced when he offers to take up his (reluctantly donned) mantle of godhood to perform this sacred rite for her. I'd disagree that he's taking up a mantle of godhood to do that ritual In fact his writer said that removing the vallaslin was really a ploy to cover the fact that he was meant to be telling Lavellan the truth about himself but at the last minute he changed his mind. It is possible that had he had done so, he would then have offered to remove the vallaslin afterwards, but the fact is he didn't tell her. It was at that point that he made his decision to stick with his original plan, which if you recall was to recover the orb and drop the Veil. It was simply ironic that when his former love defeated Corypheus it resulted in destruction of his orb and thus his plan was no longer possible. However, that still didn't deflect him from his intended course, he just sought another way to achieve it. As AlleluiaElzabeth also points out, removing the vallaslin was not the ancient sacred rite of the god Fen'Harel, but something he performed on those who joined his cause to signify their rejection of the false gods of the elves. Nor did he ever lose faith in his people, the Elvhen, the ancient ones like Abelas. It is for their sake he wants to restore things to what they were. Modern elves do not matter to him and they will die along with everyone else in the fiery chaos that will result from his actions. If anything you could say that any faith he might have had in them has been rejected by the end of DAI.
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Post by ellawyn on Mar 6, 2019 21:28:57 GMT
And the climax of his romance is finding that faith in Lavellan, evidenced when he offers to take up his (reluctantly donned) mantle of godhood to perform this sacred rite for her. I'd disagree that he's taking up a mantle of godhood to do that ritual In fact his writer said that removing the vallaslin was really a ploy to cover the fact that he was meant to be telling Lavellan the truth about himself but at the last minute he changed his mind. It is possible that had he had done so, he would then have offered to remove the vallaslin afterwards, but the fact is he didn't tell her. It was at that point that he made his decision to stick with his original plan, which if you recall was to recover the orb and drop the Veil. It was simply ironic that when his former love defeated Corypheus it resulted in destruction of his orb and thus his plan was no longer possible. However, that still didn't deflect him from his intended course, he just sought another way to achieve it. As AlleluiaElzabeth also points out, removing the vallaslin was not the ancient sacred rite of the god Fen'Harel, but something he performed on those who joined his cause to signify their rejection of the false gods of the elves. Nor did he ever lose faith in his people, the Elvhen, the ancient ones like Abelas. It is for their sake he wants to restore things to what they were. Modern elves do not matter to him and they will die along with everyone else in the fiery chaos that will result from his actions. If anything you could say that any faith he might have had in them has been rejected by the end of DAI. Okay, well... I had a whole thing written up and then I accidentally backed out and deleted it. HMPH.
Anyway, long story short: I'm not talking about Solas' intentions here. All Solas intended to do was bring her out there and tell her his identity. Then he chickened out and latched onto telling her the first "revelation" that came to mind. Solas didn't have a gotdamn clue what he was doing.
But his writer did, and that's what I'm talking about here - the writer's intentions, the themes of the story, and what Solas wants or thinks is only a piece of that. The Solas-romance is restricted to elves because, well, how could it hit the same narrative thread for anyone else? The Dalish Inquisitor romancing the secret Dalish god, the same god who's been demonized and distorted, who they've been told all their life to hate and fear (And maybe they should have, given who he is, what he intends to do.). It carries so much dramatic irony and significance that would just be impossible to replicate with any non-Dalish Inquisitor.
Honestly, I'm happy the Solas romance was race-restricted. I think it's a good example of how tailoring the romance to the protagonist's origin can make it a better story all around. I do think he should've been bi, though. But it is what it is.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 6, 2019 22:01:45 GMT
In fact his writer said that removing the vallaslin was really a ploy to cover the fact that he was meant to be telling Lavellan the truth about himself but at the last minute he changed his mind. It is possible that had he had done so, he would then have offered to remove the vallaslin afterwards, but the fact is he didn't tell her. It was at that point that he made his decision to stick with his original plan, which if you recall was to recover the orb and drop the Veil. It was simply ironic that when his former love defeated Corypheus it resulted in destruction of his orb and thus his plan was no longer possible. However, that still didn't deflect him from his intended course, he just sought another way to achieve it. As AlleluiaElzabeth also points out, removing the vallaslin was not the ancient sacred rite of the god Fen'Harel, but something he performed on those who joined his cause to signify their rejection of the false gods of the elves. Nor did he ever lose faith in his people, the Elvhen, the ancient ones like Abelas. It is for their sake he wants to restore things to what they were. Modern elves do not matter to him and they will die along with everyone else in the fiery chaos that will result from his actions. If anything you could say that any faith he might have had in them has been rejected by the end of DAI. I'm still curious at the whole everyone and everything apart from ancient elves will die when he raises the veil thing. Did that happen when he introduced the veil? Then where did all the modern elves/humans/dwarves/qunari come from.
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Post by thats1evildude on Mar 6, 2019 22:08:05 GMT
The dwarves were always there. The elves warred on them, along with their creators, the Titans. They will likely continue to be there after the Veil is torn down.
The creation of the Veil shattered the elven civilization, which was powered by magic. It’d be like the power going out across our planet - simply put, the result would be absolute chaos. And the lack of magic eventually robbed them of their immortality as well.
Humans arrived on the continent much later, as did the Qunari.
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