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Post by gaycaravaggio on Oct 20, 2021 21:00:13 GMT
I thought the Mass Effect: Andromeda characters were fine. They could have used some more development, but I'm assuming that was originally planned and then scrapped when DLCs and potential sequels got cancelled/shelved. I certainly give them credit for not having any really irritating characters like Sera (in my opinion). Even Peebee, while trying at times, wasn't too obnoxious.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Oct 20, 2021 21:01:18 GMT
I don't think in 2032 anyone will point to DA2, DA:I or TLoU2 as underrated classics. I don't see it happening for the Star Wars sequels, Star Trek: Discovery, or Chris Chinballs' Dr. Who, either. Some things are shit, the vast majority of things considered shit, do remain in the shit category forever. In fact, less things break out of the shit category, when dumped there, than break out. The idea that Twilight will be considered a masterpiece, 20 years later, is just absurd. Nobody remembers those movies anymore, nobody cares about them and the people involved, want nothing more to do with them. Speak for yourself. The Last Of Us Part II really resonated with me, more than any video game's story ever has.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 20, 2021 21:08:03 GMT
Which brings us back to distancing oneself from what one likes and what is good. If that were true, pizza would be the healthiest food on the planet.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 20, 2021 21:38:36 GMT
Tlou 2 is also the most awarded video game of all time so I'm not sure it will need to evolve into anything.
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Post by githcheater on Oct 20, 2021 21:48:59 GMT
On the broader subject, the best you can hope for is your own subjective view of ‘best’ aligns closely with a lot of others . Da2 was my favourite dragon age game but I was very much in a minority there. Congrats on conceding that you might be in a minority regarding DA2 being the "best" DA game. Some people cannot help being smart asses whenever someone suggests that DAO might be the "concensus" best DA game. Some spout "gospel" that DAO combat is "clunky" (a synonym for tactical??), while others ignore Loghain by stating that DAO did not have a decent villain.
DAI was a good game (I replayed it several times), but it was an empty world, and the plot tended to drag if one was a completionist. Fortunately, I took the advice of a fellow BSNer, and skipped entire maps and most fetch quests in later playthroughs, thus making DAI a shorter more enjoyable game even though there was a sparsity of decent side quests in DAI, compared to Skyrim, The Wild Hunt, & Origins. I also do not recruit all DAI companions to help improve game flow.
I believe that DAO is preferrable to DAI in the following ten ways (in no particular order):
- DAO villains (Loghain & Howe) evoked stronger negative feelings compared to DAI villains.
- Interesting NPCs (Zathrian, Branka, Dagna, Sandal, Anora, Teagan, Cullen, Isabela, Jowan, Wade etc ...)
- DAO having origins rather than backgrounds, promoted more emotional attachment to the protagonist, thus better promoting role playing (which is much better than playing the Blandquisitor).
- Having six unique origins rather than bland backgrounds made DAO more replayable.
- More emotionally gripping side quests with consequences (and much fewer fetch quests) ... elves, dwarves, mages and Redcliff for example.
- More intriguing companions like Morrigan, Alistar, Sten, Leliana, and Shale. To me, only Dorian and possibly Cassandra are comparable.
- Generally more rewarding companion quests that did not involve searching for red lyrium deposits and lackluster enemyies, or fetching elvan artifacts, grey warden relics, boring rare books, or Wyvern "gizzards".
- Higher quality tactical combat with a greater variety of combat abilities, better companion combat AI, plus an overhead tactical view that actually matters.
- More useful stealth mechanics in DAO.
- More useful skills and talents in DAO.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 20, 2021 22:00:29 GMT
I also do not recruit all DAI companions to help improve game flow. I'm curious - like who? And how does that improve game flow for you?
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Post by githcheater on Oct 20, 2021 22:35:48 GMT
I also do not recruit all DAI companions to help improve game flow. I'm curious - like who? And how does that improve game flow for you? For me, the Sera, Vivienne, Cole and Blackwall side quests seem like simple drudgeries (kill jerks, make cure potion, choose identity, and find fugitive). Skipping these quests helps improve the game flow for me, as they have mimimal replayability for me.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 20, 2021 23:01:00 GMT
I don't think in 2032 anyone will point to DA2, DA:I or TLoU2 as underrated classics. I don't see it happening for the Star Wars sequels, Star Trek: Discovery, or Chris Chinballs' Dr. Who, either. Some things are shit, the vast majority of things considered shit, do remain in the shit category forever. In fact, less things break out of the shit category, when dumped there, than break out. The idea that Twilight will be considered a masterpiece, 20 years later, is just absurd. Nobody remembers those movies anymore, nobody cares about them and the people involved, want nothing more to do with them. Too bad there were already articles saying that DA: 2 was an underrated classic.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 20, 2021 23:01:02 GMT
I'm curious - like who? And how does that improve game flow for you? For me, the Sera, Vivienne, Cole and Blackwall side quests seem like simple drudgeries (kill jerks, make cure potion, choose identity, and find fugitive). Skipping these quests helps improve the game flow for me, as they have mimimal replayability for me. Interesting. I love Inquisition so obviously I'll recruit everyone and enjoy them to their full capacity, but I get what you mean about Sera's personal quest. Based on your play style, I get why Cole doesn't hit for you, but there's a ton of intrigue in DAI and Cole adds a lot to it. Of course, that intrigue can only be completely discovered if you go through all the areas. Anyway, thanks for answering.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 20, 2021 23:06:44 GMT
On the broader subject, the best you can hope for is your own subjective view of ‘best’ aligns closely with a lot of others . Da2 was my favourite dragon age game but I was very much in a minority there. Congrats on conceding that you might be in a minority regarding DA2 being the "best" DA game. Some people cannot help being smart asses whenever someone suggests that DAO might be the "concensus" best DA game. Some spout "gospel" that DAO combat is "clunky" (a synonym for tactical??), while others ignore Loghain by stating that DAO did not have a decent villain.
Come on there's pages among pages of people like you shoving down "consensus" nonsense just because I said something like DAI is a great game. Do you even hear yourself talk? People say "accept the flaws" while you mock their concerns about your game being flawed as well. Where's accepting the flaws Glitch or you just really can't handle the fact that people think differently from you? Which is why you shove all those links down my throat.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 20, 2021 23:15:59 GMT
I don't think in 2032 anyone will point to DA2, DA:I or TLoU2 as underrated classics. I don't see it happening for the Star Wars sequels, Star Trek: Discovery, or Chris Chinballs' Dr. Who, either. Some things are shit, the vast majority of things considered shit, do remain in the shit category forever. In fact, less things break out of the shit category, when dumped there, than break out. The idea that Twilight will be considered a masterpiece, 20 years later, is just absurd. Nobody remembers those movies anymore, nobody cares about them and the people involved, want nothing more to do with them. Too bad there were already articles saying that DA: 2 was an underrated classic. Yes, and everyone turned them down. People simply do not look to DA2 favourably. It hasn't changed, no matter how much the access media pushes for it. And the general consensus toward Inquisition has been growing increasingly negative. Mostly because of damage Bioware has incurred on itself, but it's not like it was a good game, either. It had the exact same problems Andromeda had. The media just overlooked them.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by githcheater on Oct 20, 2021 23:27:19 GMT
Congrats on conceding that you might be in a minority regarding DA2 being the "best" DA game. Some people cannot help being smart asses whenever someone suggests that DAO might be the "concensus" best DA game. Some spout "gospel" that DAO combat is "clunky" (a synonym for tactical??), while others ignore Loghain by stating that DAO did not have a decent villain.
Come on there's pages among pages of people like you shoving down "consensus" nonsense just because I said something like DAI is a great game. Do you even hear yourself talk? People say "accept the flaws" while you mock their concerns about your game being flawed as well. Where's accepting the flaws Glitch or you just really can't handle the fact that people think differently from you? Which is why you shove all those links down my throat. Glitch???
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Post by colfoley on Oct 21, 2021 0:53:11 GMT
I have come to the conclusion that for some people this whole over reliance on 'consensus' viewpoints or 'the experts' or even 'sales' comes down to confirmation bias. When I participate in these debates and just look at the opinions and moods of the fandom I do it as a means of...well learning. To gather more information, try and broaden my perspective, and see if there is stuff that can be applied to these franchises or for any of my own endeavors.
But it seems like there is a large part of...well fandom in general...that wants to look to all these polls and articles as a means to validate their own perspective. Hence that when there are those who disagree with them, it then becomes a race to see what information they can find which proves their perspective. Find a group of experts and reviewers that like said game, well they were bought by the publishing companies. If such a game sells well but poorly reviewed the fans are wrong. And if both are in allignment then suddenly it becomes 'x game did not sell well' or we start trying to decipher random pictures of award presenters. Its all the same thing. For some reason people can't let their opinions stand on their own.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 21, 2021 0:58:22 GMT
I understand, but this isn't an indie title, addressing a niche, which can afford to have a small, but dedicated following. The AAA space, soon to be AAAA space, is a ruthless segment. Studios get gutted and dissolved, if titles fall below expectations and, in spite of EA's dedication to Bioware, it's been 10 years of nothing but problems, for 2 titles that worth of good PR, 12 years ago. At some point, Bioware needs to start turning shit over. EA is not going to facilitate Bioware's losses forever. So why you may not think too much into it, personally, it should have you worried. EA is not a charity foundation.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Oct 21, 2021 1:09:34 GMT
I understand, but this isn't an indie title, addressing a niche, which can afford to have a small, but dedicated following. The AAA space, soon to be AAAA space, is a ruthless segment. Studios get gutted and dissolved, if titles fall below expectations and, in spite of EA's dedication to Bioware, it's been 10 years of nothing but problems, for 2 titles that worth of good PR, 12 years ago. At some point, Bioware needs to start turning shit over. EA is not going to facilitate Bioware's losses forever. So why you may not think too much into it, personally, it should have you worried. EA is not a charity foundation. Well this would be correct if their titles weren't all financial successes. Even Anthem, the most controversial Bioware product, raked in 100M+ in sales.
So yeah I don't think BioWare has issues when it comes to money. I don't think EA would have supported them otherwise. People wildly conflate social media outrage with product viability. That being said they have been consistently negatively impacted by said social media outrage, and while it's generally expected in this day and age, they'd obviously try to amend it. I think it's why they're giving them more berth to do it their own way. The way "we" want it.
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Post by necrowaif on Oct 21, 2021 1:14:30 GMT
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 21, 2021 1:17:33 GMT
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 21, 2021 1:30:48 GMT
Lebanese DudeYeah. $100m barely makes up for the title's budget. Andromeda had a $100m budget and Anthem had an even bigger budget. Not to mention, out of that $100m that the game made, at best 60% goes back to the publisher. The rest goes to retailers, distribution, manufacturing, licensing etc. Which is why publishers want to sell games through their own proprietary store, so they can keep 100% of what they charge And even then, they still have to pay the licensing for the allocated keys and other fees etc, but they do end up keeping something like over 95%. Realistically, the game needs to make 3-4 times its budget, to be financially successful. You see, how games are made in this segment, is you get investors to pitch in the money and from there, the developer guarantees the investor some return on that investment. If Anthem made back its budget, is great, but EA and their investors aren't in it to split $5 in profit, between 100 investors. EA loses money that way. In fact, Anthem, for each retail and digital copy sold, at the bargain bin price of $5, as it was during the tail end of its 5m sales, was losing $25 for every copy sold. That's money they waved away. But inventory needed to be shifted, so the game couldn't be sold at full price, so a more attractive price point needed to be found. I had posted pics of Anthem selling as low as $0.99. Nobody's making money out of that. Least of all EA.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Oct 21, 2021 2:37:08 GMT
Lebanese Dude Yeah. $100m barely makes up for the title's budget. Andromeda had a $100m budget and Anthem had an even bigger budget. Not to mention, out of that $100m that the game made, at best 60% goes back to the publisher. The rest goes to retailers, distribution, manufacturing, licensing etc. Which is why publishers want to sell games through their own proprietary store, so they can keep 100% of what they charge And even then, they still have to pay the licensing for the allocated keys and other fees etc, but they do end up keeping something like over 95%. Realistically, the game needs to make 3-4 times its budget, to be financially successful. You see, how games are made in this segment, is you get investors to pitch in the money and from there, the developer guarantees the investor some return on that investment. If Anthem made back its budget, is great, but EA and their investors aren't in it to split $5 in profit, between 100 investors. EA loses money that way. In fact, Anthem, for each retail and digital copy sold, at the bargain bin price of $5, as it was during the tail end of its 5m sales, was losing $25 for every copy sold. That's money they waved away. But inventory needed to be shifted, so the game couldn't be sold at full price, so a more attractive price point needed to be found. I had posted pics of Anthem selling as low as $0.99. Nobody's making money out of that. Least of all EA. Well thanks for the breakdown. 100M was the figure in 2019, around 2 years ago. AFAIK it's still online and it probably made some more after that although I can't possible divine how much. Do you have figures of their total revenue/loss and such? Google failing me. Anyway that's besides the point. I don't mean to imply Anthem was something to be celebrated. All I meant was that Anthem was their most controversial title and arguably their biggest flop so to speak, yet it also their second highest earning product. If their worst case scenario still did "alright" at least in terms of sales then it's not really something that sets the tone for the company's trajectory. Like there's a "reason" BioWare is getting "more" (not less) space to do its own thing. I don't think EA did it out of charity.
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Twitter Guru
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More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Oct 21, 2021 7:01:11 GMT
Mike Jungbluth @lightbombmikeMovies I’ve inflicted on the Dragon Age animation team: Killer Klowns from Outer Space Theodore Rex Super Mario Bros Return of the Living Dead Night of the Comet TMNT III Vampire's Kiss Cool As Ice Velocipastor Cats One Cut of the Dead Santa's Slay Troll 2 Miami Connection The FP For those keep score at home, the latest additions to the DA Animation Team Good Bad Movie List have been: Psycho Goreman Hardcore Henry Teen Witch The 19th Good Bad Movie the DA Animation team has watched is Hercules in New York. Without a doubt the most awkwardly performed and filmed movie we have watched yet. Though it had not a cynical bone in its buffed up body. The 20th Good Bad Movie night for the Dragon Age animation team was The Wicker Man. This is how we officially welcomed @ jess_Anim to the team. No turning back now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/SzCTMVivpaXEeRbEoNgB.png)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 21, 2021 7:05:57 GMT
Well thanks for the breakdown. 100M was the figure in 2019, around 2 years ago. AFAIK it's still online and it probably made some more after that although I can't possible divine how much. Do you have figures of their total revenue/loss and such? Google failing me. I know that Anthem was selling slowly but steadily and that it was poised to overtake DA:I in lifetime sales, in a fraction of the time DA:I was out. But out of physical copies, EA made no money. The thing is that, in the 10 week window since launch, Anthem did not meet the 5 million sales mark that it needed, by a distance of ~2m copies. Since then, Anthem has kept selling, when heavily discounted from its original $60 price tag, to something below $20, with an average selling price of $12. I haven't kept up with it, because, EA gets $0 out of physical copies sold at that price point and from digital copies, it has made ~$15 million for EA. Anyway that's besides the point. I don't mean to imply Anthem was something to be celebrated. All I meant was that Anthem was their most controversial title and arguably their biggest flop so to speak, yet it also their second highest earning product. If their worst case scenario still did "alright" at least in terms of sales then it's not really something that sets the tone for the company's trajectory. No, it did not do OK in terms of sales. As we discussed, out of that reported $100m revenue, EA took, at best, 60% as net revenue. So $60 million. It lost ~$40 million. Not as bad as Marvel's Avengers, which reportedly cost SquareEnix $63 million, but even with the data that I have, it's still ~$25 million away from making back its budget to EA. Like there's a "reason" BioWare is getting "more" (not less) space to do its own thing. I don't think EA did it out of charity. That has more to do with Laura Mielle and Vince Zampella reworking a lot of EA NA, since the departure of Patrick Soderlund, and is true for all of EA's studios that fall under their jurisdiction. Even more so for Zampella's pet project, DICE LA, now renamed into Ripple Effect. So this was nothing special for Bioware, that EA did out of their benevolence, it was a total change for their development policies, across all their NA studios. And that was made because of EA's terrible reputation over the past decade and their focus on cramming MTX down all titles. I don't know if that's going to change any time soon, to be honest, but Vince and Laura's plan was to give gamers what they wanted and Battlefield 2042 is the first title to release, in that "new" EA mindset and it's currently shaping up terribly. We'll see with the release product what that means, as a first taste, and perhaps some future EA titles will work up on that, but it is entirely possible that this isn't salvageable, as well, as a development model.
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Post by necrowaif on Oct 21, 2021 7:06:27 GMT
Ooh boy, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III. Even compared to Secret of the Ooze, that was a clunker.
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N4
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Oct 21, 2021 7:58:23 GMT
Mike Jungbluth @lightbombmikeMovies I’ve inflicted on the Dragon Age animation team: Killer Klowns from Outer Space Theodore Rex Super Mario Bros Return of the Living Dead Night of the Comet TMNT III Vampire's Kiss Cool As Ice Velocipastor Cats One Cut of the Dead Santa's Slay Troll 2 Miami Connection The FP For those keep score at home, the latest additions to the DA Animation Team Good Bad Movie List have been: Psycho Goreman Hardcore Henry Teen Witch The 19th Good Bad Movie the DA Animation team has watched is Hercules in New York. Without a doubt the most awkwardly performed and filmed movie we have watched yet. Though it had not a cynical bone in its buffed up body. The 20th Good Bad Movie night for the Dragon Age animation team was The Wicker Man. This is how we officially welcomed @ jess_Anim to the team. No turning back now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/SzCTMVivpaXEeRbEoNgB.png) I assume they are referring to the remake, not the cult classic version.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Oct 21, 2021 8:01:54 GMT
I can see the sentiment afterall characters with more time that tend to develop often can come out better...or for a later example actuallythis does work to explain how people can course correct a character over multiple works and address criticism. But despite this I found MEAs cast held up remarkably well. Yep I feel after playing ME OT and MEA "side by side" the MEA cast is much more 'human' / 'alive' / 'real' feeling compared to the most of ME OT. Same happened in DAI too.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 21, 2021 9:25:58 GMT
I can see the sentiment afterall characters with more time that tend to develop often can come out better...or for a later example actuallythis does work to explain how people can course correct a character over multiple works and address criticism. But despite this I found MEAs cast held up remarkably well. Yep I feel after playing ME OT and MEA "side by side" the MEA cast is much more 'human' / 'alive' / 'real' feeling compared to the most of ME OT. Same happened in DAI too. that last sentence is fighting words. ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png)
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