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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2022 14:36:12 GMT
DA2's Arishtok was an impressive alien. He was human looking but very distinctive, made more so by his adherence to the Qun religion and warrior discipline.
It strongly disagrees with me when an original alien is "imaged" then changed to look like something else. Klingons being an example. It also bugs me when an alien's distinctiveness is made non existent in a later game... I give you Bull. .. my sentiment exactly... all for expediance. The DA2 elves looked very alien too and it was jarring if you had played DAO. If we are talking consistency, then Sten didn't look so alien in DAO: just taller than a human with greyish brown skin and white hair but no horns, normal ears and human eyes. The explanation for the lack of horns in later games, as an exception to the norm, was fair enough but not the switch to pointed ears and black eyes. I agree that did make the Arishok look distinctive, formidable and alien but I do wonder why they thought it necessary. The Iron Bull was something of a compromise between the two looks but with a ridiculously small head compared with the rest of him and strangely shaped horns compared with DA2 and the Viddasala was different again, so they really haven't settled on a standard Qunari look yet. Even the concept art varies: So I think the animators haven't really gone against canon to any great extent when they can call on such varied sources for their inspiration.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2022 16:42:28 GMT
My concern is in the end they're going to go overboard and "humanize" the Qunari. Not just in appearance, but in the Qun itself, and make them the indisputable "good guys" in the conflict.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 11, 2022 16:50:53 GMT
I'm pretty doubtful, even Iron Bull was more grey than an actual good guy in DA: I.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2022 17:02:29 GMT
I'm pretty doubtful, even Iron Bull was more grey than an actual good guy in DA: I. But he's way more laid back about stuff than you would think Qunari would be. I mean, he had no problems with Cassandra being a female warrior. Or mages running around without a handler, or their lips sewn shut, etc (or even taking orders from one, if the Inquisitor is a mage) Sten, at least made no secret of how weird and even disturbed he found all this. Heck, his Chargers appeared to be an example of how close to going Vashoth he was the whole time: all of them were rebels and outcasts from their respective societies. Their own versions of Vashoth, if you will.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2022 18:02:02 GMT
Heck, his Chargers appeared to be an example of how close to going Vashoth he was the whole time: all of them were rebels and outcasts from their respective societies. Their own versions of Vashoth, if you will. I think that was the point really. He'd effectively had a breakdown on Par Vollen and they sent him south as a spy to recover. He had to adapt and accept all those things he saw or he would have broken his cover story. (Sten did not have that problem so he could speak his mind). After 10 years, I think it was, he had effectively become his role of Tal-Vashoth but was too afraid to admit it to himself because he had been so conditioned by the Qun to see Tal-Vashoth as no better than monsters, hardly helped by those he had encountered on Seheron. He was still wary of anything connected with spirits and really freaks out if taken into the Fade; you are not permitted to go there in your mind in the Qun, let alone physically. There is also that element of the chaos of the kossith psyche just under the surface; he really enjoys killing rather more than he should, as Solas points out in one of their conversations. One of the depressing things about discovering the truth about Solas is that so often I agreed with the things he was saying to my companions because I wanted to say the same myself but wasn't allowed to. Reprimanding the Iron Bull seemed particularly hypocritical if you listen to what he says to a hostile Inquisitor about his motives for stopping the Qun but I suppose he would argue that it was personal and therefore any satisfaction he derived from it was justified.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 11, 2022 18:06:35 GMT
I'm pretty doubtful, even Iron Bull was more grey than an actual good guy in DA: I. But he's way more laid back about stuff than you would think Qunari would be. I mean, he had no problems with Cassandra being a female warrior. Or mages running around without a handler, or their lips sewn shut, etc (or even taking orders from one, if the Inquisitor is a mage) Sten, at least made no secret of how weird and even disturbed he found all this. Heck, his Chargers appeared to be an example of how close to going Vashoth he was the whole time: all of them were rebels and outcasts from their respective societies. Their own versions of Vashoth, if you will. Spy.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 11, 2022 22:49:59 GMT
Heck, his Chargers appeared to be an example of how close to going Vashoth he was the whole time: all of them were rebels and outcasts from their respective societies. Their own versions of Vashoth, if you will. I think that was the point really. He'd effectively had a breakdown on Par Vollen and they sent him south as a spy to recover. He had to adapt and accept all those things he saw or he would have broken his cover story. (Sten did not have that problem so he could speak his mind). After 10 years, I think it was, he had effectively become his role of Tal-Vashoth but was too afraid to admit it to himself because he had been so conditioned by the Qun to see Tal-Vashoth as no better than monsters, hardly helped by those he had encountered on Seheron. He was still wary of anything connected with spirits and really freaks out if taken into the Fade; you are not permitted to go there in your mind in the Qun, let alone physically. There is also that element of the chaos of the kossith psyche just under the surface; he really enjoys killing rather more than he should, as Solas points out in one of their conversations. One of the depressing things about discovering the truth about Solas is that so often I agreed with the things he was saying to my companions because I wanted to say the same myself but wasn't allowed to. Reprimanding the Iron Bull seemed particularly hypocritical if you listen to what he says to a hostile Inquisitor about his motives for stopping the Qun but I suppose he would argue that it was personal and therefore any satisfaction he derived from it was justified. Right, The Iron Bull had effectively "gone native" But a devout follower of the Qun would be the epitome of Lawful Neutral. , Remember, Qunari don't even have "names", their titles ARE their "names". They consider themselves just little pieces of a collective whole. Like the Borg. Or communists
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2022 0:19:31 GMT
My concern is in the end they're going to go overboard and "humanize" the Qunari. Not just in appearance, but in the Qun itself, and make them the indisputable "good guys" in the conflict. Since she's a mage whose lips aren't sewn shut she's obviously not a part of the qun and therefore unlikely to soften or humanize it with her prescence. If she's a vashoth who knows nothing about the qun like our inquisitor then her presence might not paint the qunari in any particular light. If she's a tal vashoth she's more likely to show the qun in a harsher light, having presumably fled to avoid persecution for what she is.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 12, 2022 1:29:37 GMT
I wouldn’t consider Bull the best example of a qunari, given his background and plot in Inquisition. If they wanted to make the qunari the unquestionably good guys in the conflict with Tevinter, they wouldn’t have make the decision to save his Chargers being fundamental on him remaining in the Qun. Or they wouldn’t have made him betray the Inquisitor without a flicker of doubt if he stayed in the Qun.
His stance on mages and women, among other things, are shaped by his background and his deployment as a spy, that changed his views and opinions. I don’t think those views will be the norm for the qunari in DreadWolf.
Is it possible, however, that the Imperium is portrayed as the worse side in the conflict? Possibly. It depends on what will happen in the game. I’d prefer if they still give us choices to side in the conflict (considering that a viable option could be fomenting a revolution in the Imperium while fending off the Qun).
In the end, the Qun’s goal is still to conquer Thedas as a whole and convert all people to its doctrine, killing the ones that won’t follow through. I don’t see them becoming the ‘good guys’ anytime soon. But I’m also one that believes that overall it doesn’t exist an organization or country that could qualify as ‘the good guys’, other then possibly the Wardens (who are at best morally grey and that got thrashed in this department in DAI), or the Inquisition (which we don’t know how long it’ll last anyway, and it doesn’t really count as it’s new organization that was basically lead by the PC from the get go).
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 12, 2022 12:07:09 GMT
DA2's Arishtok was an impressive alien. He was human looking but very distinctive, made more so by his adherence to the Qun religion and warrior discipline.
It strongly disagrees with me when an original alien is "imaged" then changed to look like something else. Klingons being an example. It also bugs me when an alien's distinctiveness is made non existent in a later game... I give you Bull. .. my sentiment exactly... all for expediance. The DA2 elves looked very alien too and it was jarring if you had played DAO. If we are talking consistency, then Sten didn't look so alien in DAO: just taller than a human with greyish brown skin and white hair but no horns, normal ears and human eyes. The explanation for the lack of horns in later games, as an exception to the norm, was fair enough but not the switch to pointed ears and black eyes. I agree that did make the Arishok look distinctive, formidable and alien but I do wonder why they thought it necessary. The Iron Bull was something of a compromise between the two looks but with a ridiculously small head compared with the rest of him and strangely shaped horns compared with DA2 and the Viddasala was different again, so they really haven't settled on a standard Qunari look yet. Even the concept art varies: So I think the animators haven't really gone against canon to any great extent when they can call on such varied sources for their inspiration. Count me among the few who miss DA2's more alien qunari and elves. Obviously as playable races, their minds and personalities must be more or less human. But if the creators aren't going to lean into something, *anything* that makes them different, what was the point of making them not human to begin with?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 12, 2022 13:16:29 GMT
But if the creators aren't going to lean into something, *anything* that makes them different, what was the point of making them not human to begin with? Sten was different from the humans around him, he just wasn't visually as different. This emphasised that the mindset and social set up in the Qun is very different from other nations rather than the race itself. I suppose the benefit of the more alien look is that it emphasises the fact that without the Qun to control them, the race in the past probably came across as brutal and savage monsters to anyone who encountered them and the Tal-Vashoth and Vashoth still suffer from that impression. Sten wouldn't automatically have inspired fear if you encountered him, which is why the family took him in when they found him, whereas I would imagine they wouldn't have been so quick to rescue someone who looked like the Arishok. I'm hoping we get some answers about the origins of the kossith/vashoth/qunari next game. There were hints in DAI, from both Kieran and Corypheus, that they were originally something else and probably altered with magic, rather than a race that evolved independently of the others, although I suppose that could still be the case if the race was altered from its original form into the current one. I thought the DA2 Qunari were an improvement on DAO for showing them as different from humans but I didn't like the design of the DA2 elves, mostly because they aren't meant to be substantially different from humans and yet the DA2 elves obviously were. It was hard to see how some aspect of those features wouldn't transfer over into mixed race offspring.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 12, 2022 14:52:46 GMT
Count me among the few who miss DA2's more alien qunari and elves. Obviously as playable races, their minds and personalities must be more or less human. But if the creators aren't going to lean into something, *anything* that makes them different, what was the point of making them not human to begin with? Ironically enough, with all the talk about how DAO was "generic fantasy setting" from an artistic POV and how Bioware has tried coming up with a distinctive visual for the series, I think DA2 had a distinctive visual style, as much as was possible given the constraints of the short dev cycle. In terms of how the races looked, sure, the elves were bug eyed and weird looking, but when you looked at them you couldn't say they were just skinny humans with pointy ears. Same with the qunari and with the male dwarves. DAI's elves still look a bit different from humans, albeit their distinctive facial features have been toned down, but the qunari look less interesting (no more black sclera, no more eyes just a bit too small for their faces that it's off-putting), and the female dwarves are pretty much just short female humans.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 12, 2022 20:16:01 GMT
I reckon the Qunari will still be brutal in DAD, but we'll be introduced to a Qun reformist faction that will be the 'good guys'.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 12, 2022 20:31:54 GMT
I reckon the Qunari will still be brutal in DAD, but we'll be introduced to a Qun reformist faction that will be the 'good guys'.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 12, 2022 20:34:43 GMT
I reckon the Qunari will still be brutal in DAD, but we'll be introduced to a Qun reformist faction that will be the 'good guys'.
That's like making klingons human... No bloody way, I say!
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 12, 2022 20:42:20 GMT
The thing about the Qun is that an argument can be made for letting them take over Thedas. A lot of people - peasants in particular - would benefit from living under the Qun. But the sacrifices Thedas would have to make (the loss of personal freedoms and the brutal subjugation of mages at a level the Chantry can only dream of) are just too high to allow that to happen.
That said, I will not be surprised if BioWare pulls what Star Trek: Picard did to the Borg and turns the Qunari into a bunch of wimps, likely by allowing some good guy faction to take over as ClarkKent suggested. You saw hints of that in Tevinter Nights and I suspect it will only get worse.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 12, 2022 20:54:53 GMT
Snip DAI's elves still look a bit different from humans, albeit their distinctive facial features have been toned down, but the qunari look less interesting (no more black sclera, no more eyes just a bit too small for their faces that it's off-putting), and the female dwarves are pretty much just short female humans.
I prefer that the aliens look and remain alienish with their own distinctive natures. Yet, Bio, keeps changing faces (ie: Leliana, Morrigan.. etc) and worse the Qunari and Elves.
DA:DW character visuals will again show form variation (my belief). Why? it follows a pattern. ... "things must look different". For example: In the first two games, same game emgine but the Elves and Qunari were designed differenrly. This, imo, was a deliberate choice. In DA:I, a new game angine probably necessitated the visual change in the faces but Bio decided to make the Elves quite human looking.... gone the "skinny look". Again, deliberate. This I don't understand or the necessity of it.
Cameo characters from DA:I, no doubt will look different in the next game.
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Post by Hrungr on Jun 13, 2022 1:22:44 GMT
That said, I will not be surprised if BioWare pulls what Star Trek: Picard did to the Borg and turns the Qunari into a bunch of wimps, likely by allowing some good guy faction to take over as ClarkKent suggested. You saw hints of that in Tevinter Nights and I suspect it will only get worse. There's no need to introduce a new faction with the Qunari as the war being waged by the Aantam was done without permission from the rest of the Triumvirate. So there is already a major internal division happening here. No doubt the PC will be able to exploit this. Interestingly, Rasaan (who is supposed to be the next Ariqun) is in Tevinter learning about Solas without official sanction either. So... more division.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2022 1:31:48 GMT
That said, I will not be surprised if BioWare pulls what Star Trek: Picard did to the Borg and turns the Qunari into a bunch of wimps, likely by allowing some good guy faction to take over as ClarkKent suggested. You saw hints of that in Tevinter Nights and I suspect it will only get worse. There's no need to introduce a new faction with the Qunari as the war being waged by the Aantam was done without permission from the rest of the Triumvirate. So there is already a major internal division happening here. No doubt the PC will be able to exploit this. Interestingly, Rasaan (who is supposed to be the next Ariqun) is in Tevinter learning about Solas without official sanction either. So... more division. Qun goes Boom!
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Post by Avejajed on Jun 13, 2022 4:09:03 GMT
This is commentary from some ways back: I look at supplemental material like this. The main game is required reading. Everything for the test is in required reading. But there’s extra study guides and supplemental material that may give you context or details. You pass the test either way, but you come out a little smarter with the extra work.
I’m high, I’ve missed you guys.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 13, 2022 4:16:49 GMT
This is commentary from some ways back: I look at supplemental material like this. The main game is required reading. Everything for the test is in required reading. But there’s extra study guides and supplemental material that may give you context or details. You pass the test either way, but you come out a little smarter with the extra work. I’m high, I’ve missed you guys. I headcannon that Masked Empire was an intelligence report that my Inquisitor read before going off to Halamshiral.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Jun 13, 2022 8:52:53 GMT
Headcanoning your character knowing essential information to make the story make sense ain't a good thing. It ain't your job to do the work for the storyteller. If you want to headcanon stuff about your character's background to flesh them out because you're given that leeway in say, an RPG setting, that's fine, but headcanoning away plotholes or things that don't make sense in the story is bad and such inconsistencies should be called out, so that they don't happen again. I understand things can be missed, especially in a game that has multiple narrative threads, but when your main characters in a quest are the main characters in another piece if media, the least you can do as a writer is find a way to reconcile them in such a way that they make sense, especially when one can influence the other. Otherwise, why do they even take place in the same universe or the same timeline?
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Post by colfoley on Jun 13, 2022 9:26:04 GMT
Headcanoning your character knowing essential information to make the story make sense ain't a good thing. It ain't your job to do the work for the storyteller. If you want to headcanon stuff about your character's background to flesh them out because you're given that leeway in say, an RPG setting, that's fine, but headcanoning away plotholes or things that don't make sense in the story is bad and such inconsistencies should be called out, so that they don't happen again. I understand things can be missed, especially in a game that has multiple narrative threads, but when your main characters in a quest are the main characters in another piece if media, the least you can do as a writer is find a way to reconcile them in such a way that they make sense, especially when one can influence the other. Otherwise, why do they even take place in the same universe or the same timeline? we only play a small fraction of these people's lives at any given time especially given the travel distance involved. Why can't the Inquisitor read prepared intelligence reports on the carriage ride between Halamshiral and Skyhold? And as I pointed out somewhere Leiliana did make reference to the Masked Empire. That's like 75% of the work done.
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ArcadiaGrey
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Jun 13, 2022 9:41:09 GMT
I hated the way elves looked in DA2, and loved the Qunari...but I wonder if they're both the original intended looks that they just couldn't pull off in DAO? Maybe all they could manage was mild variations on humans?
Whatever the case, I hope they keep a consistent visual style with DA4. I'm sick of the game world, combat and characters changing so much every time. And if the Qunari are suddenly woke asf like Bull I'll facepalm so hard. Arishok ftw.
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TabithaTH
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 576 Likes: 1,092
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Sept 21, 2024 22:52:10 GMT
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TabithaTH
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Jul 22, 2018 12:32:26 GMT
July 2018
teatabitha
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by TabithaTH on Jun 13, 2022 10:31:02 GMT
I hated the way elves looked in DA2, and loved the Qunari...but I wonder if they're both the original intended looks that they just couldn't pull off in DAO? Maybe all they could manage was mild variations on humans? Iirc, Sten was supposed to have horns in DAO, but it was too difficult and they had to drop the idea. So it isn’t unlikely that the elves too were supposed to be different in some way.
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