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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 1:56:55 GMT
What if Solas un tranquiled the Dragon Speaker? I highly doubt that Avexis would support Solas and his plans. Her connection to Cassandra would prevent that. She was tranquiled as soon as she got saved (irony) so I would think k she would rage and want the world to burn, even if it included her.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:04:55 GMT
I highly doubt that Avexis would support Solas and his plans. Her connection to Cassandra would prevent that. She was tranquiled as soon as she got saved (irony) so I would think k she would rage and want the world to burn, even if it included her. Where did it say that? All that we know was she became Tranquil sometime in the two decades between the movie and the game. Also, considering she is one of the few Tranquil with the Inquisition from the start it seems pretty clear that Cassandra was watching out for her (and thinking she deserved better considering Cassandra’s dialogue). Plus I think she’d be wary of people wanting her help in changing the world considering the last time.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:07:58 GMT
She was tranquiled as soon as she got saved (irony) so I would think k she would rage and want the world to burn, even if it included her. Where did it say that? All that we know was she became Tranquil sometime in the two decades between the movie and the game. Also, considering she is one of the few Tranquil with the Inquisition from the start it seems pretty clear that Cassandra was watching out for her (and thinking she deserved better considering Cassandra’s dialogue). Plus I think she’d be wary of people wanting her help in changing the world considering the last time. They didn't ask her the last time. If she was capable of controlling dragons as a child, and she was a dangerous weapon proven to be able to be controlled and used by blood mages, it would be safer for everyone to tranquilize her then. I have no idea why they would wait.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:09:53 GMT
Where did it say that? All that we know was she became Tranquil sometime in the two decades between the movie and the game. Also, considering she is one of the few Tranquil with the Inquisition from the start it seems pretty clear that Cassandra was watching out for her (and thinking she deserved better considering Cassandra’s dialogue). Plus I think she’d be wary of people wanting her help in changing the world considering the last time. They didn't ask her the last time. If she was capable of controlling dragons as a child, and she was a dangerous weapon proven to be able to be controlled and used by blood mages, it would be safer for everyone to tranquilize her then. I have no idea why they would wait. We don’t even know if it was forced. She could have become Tranquil voluntarily. As for why they didn’t force it immediately, Cassandra talked about how they got rewarded for their service to save everyone. Cassandra would not call her being Tranquilized as a reward.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:13:23 GMT
They didn't ask her the last time. If she was capable of controlling dragons as a child, and she was a dangerous weapon proven to be able to be controlled and used by blood mages, it would be safer for everyone to tranquilize her then. I have no idea why they would wait. We don’t even know if it was forced. She could have become Tranquil voluntarily. I question the ability of a young child being capable of consent. Yes we know nothing. Which means my narrative is just as good as your narrative. I think she was made tranquiled as a child by force. I think if Solas could control the emotional outbursts at first, she could be nurtured into non tranquil life calmly. And she would see him as her liberator just as Calpernia did towards Coryphaeus. And she would be angry and she would help her liberator.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 2:17:08 GMT
Avexis is one of the most interesting characters in the entire DA canon, and the only interesting character in Dawn of the Seeker. I consider it borderline criminal that she's been so poorly utilised, and would like very much to see her return in some capacity.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:18:16 GMT
We don’t even know if it was forced. She could have become Tranquil voluntarily. I question the ability of a young child being capable of consent. Yes we know nothing. Which means my narrative is just as good as your narrative. I think she was made tranquiled as a child by force. I think if Solas could control the emotional outbursts at first, she could be nurtured into non tranquil life calmly. And she would see him as her liberator just as Calpernia did towards Coryphaeus. And she would be angry and she would help her liberator. I never said your narrative wasn’t. I just disagree with it considering the dialogue we hear from Cassandra about the subject.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:19:51 GMT
Avexis is one of the most interesting characters in the entire DA canon, and the only interesting character in Dawn of the Seeker. I consider it borderline criminal that she's been so poorly utilised, and would like very much to see her return in some capacity. And she was in DAI as an NPC (and they like to bring back NPCs if they're interesting) Her character has connections to mage/Tranquility problems and unusual Dragon powers. And she's an elf. So we got 4 check marks.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:27:48 GMT
I question the ability of a young child being capable of consent. Yes we know nothing. Which means my narrative is just as good as your narrative. I think she was made tranquiled as a child by force. I think if Solas could control the emotional outbursts at first, she could be nurtured into non tranquil life calmly. And she would see him as her liberator just as Calpernia did towards Coryphaeus. And she would be angry and she would help her liberator. I never said your narrative wasn’t. I just disagree with it considering the dialogue we hear from Cassandra about the subject. I've been googling to try to find what Cass specifically says. avexus' Wikia doesn't say when she was made tranquil. I don't think her saying to Giselle that she's "safer this way" should be considered as her voluntary urge to remain that way. A tranquil is at all times logical and I assume she's spent more years Tranquil than not. Even normal people dislike change, especially if they don't know what they're missing. Pharamond I'm sure said while in a Tranquil state he should be that way, but preferred death over that state when awakened. Karl similarly was willing to betray Anders without blinking, but when awake, was desperately sad and asked for death. I think, other than that crazy girl in Mage Origin, and even then there is a chance... That all Tranquils do not want to be Tranquils if they had the chance to not be so again.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 2:33:00 GMT
I never said your narrative wasn’t. I just disagree with it considering the dialogue we hear from Cassandra about the subject. I've been googling to try to find what Cass specifically says. avexus' Wikia doesn't say when she was made tranquil. I don't think her saying to Giselle that she's "safer this way" should be considered as her voluntary urge to remain that way. A tranquil is at all times logical and I assume she's spent more years Tranquil than not. Even normal people dislike change, especially if they don't know what they're missing. Pharamond I'm sure said while in a Tranquil state he should be that way, but preferred death over that state when awakened. Karl similarly was willing to betray Anders without blinking, but when awake, was desperately sad and asked for death. I think, other than that crazy girl in Mage Origin, and even then there is a chance... That all Tranquils do not want to be Tranquils if they had the chance to not be so again. The way I see it, nobody can give informed consent to be made Tranquil. It's impossible to know what a life devoid of emotion is actually like.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:36:37 GMT
I've been googling to try to find what Cass specifically says. avexus' Wikia doesn't say when she was made tranquil. I don't think her saying to Giselle that she's "safer this way" should be considered as her voluntary urge to remain that way. A tranquil is at all times logical and I assume she's spent more years Tranquil than not. Even normal people dislike change, especially if they don't know what they're missing. Pharamond I'm sure said while in a Tranquil state he should be that way, but preferred death over that state when awakened. Karl similarly was willing to betray Anders without blinking, but when awake, was desperately sad and asked for death. I think, other than that crazy girl in Mage Origin, and even then there is a chance... That all Tranquils do not want to be Tranquils if they had the chance to not be so again. The way I see it, nobody can give informed consent to be made Tranquil. It's impossible to know what a life devoid of emotion is actually like. I also had that thought, but it was more complex than I felt like trying to explain on mobile. I'm not eloquent by a long shot, you summed it up pretty well. You can't consent to something you don't understand.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:41:42 GMT
I never said your narrative wasn’t. I just disagree with it considering the dialogue we hear from Cassandra about the subject. I've been googling to try to find what Cass specifically says. avexus' Wikia doesn't say when she was made tranquil. I don't think her saying to Giselle that she's "safer this way" should be considered as her voluntary urge to remain that way. A tranquil is at all times logical and I assume she's spent more years Tranquil than not. Even normal people dislike change, especially if they don't know what they're missing. Pharamond I'm sure said while in a Tranquil state he should be that way, but preferred death over that state when awakened. Karl similarly was willing to betray Anders without blinking, but when awake, was desperately sad and asked for death. I think, other than that crazy girl in Mage Origin, and even then there is a chance... That all Tranquils do not want to be Tranquils if they had the chance to not be so again. Inquisitor: "What happened to the mages who helped you?" Casandra: "They went back to the Circles, with rewards and privileges and the most Holy's gratitude." With those words, it is impossible that it happened immediately since that runs contrary to what Cassandra says. And it's not like she'd lie, since she thinks the mages who helped deserve just as much credit as she got. Not all mages fear Tranquility. And some prefer it. For example the story of Orana. Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows. Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her studies began to suffer.
Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.
With her connection to the Fade severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.
Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer. —From Codex entry: Tranquility [/div]
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:44:52 GMT
I've been googling to try to find what Cass specifically says. avexus' Wikia doesn't say when she was made tranquil. I don't think her saying to Giselle that she's "safer this way" should be considered as her voluntary urge to remain that way. A tranquil is at all times logical and I assume she's spent more years Tranquil than not. Even normal people dislike change, especially if they don't know what they're missing. Pharamond I'm sure said while in a Tranquil state he should be that way, but preferred death over that state when awakened. Karl similarly was willing to betray Anders without blinking, but when awake, was desperately sad and asked for death. I think, other than that crazy girl in Mage Origin, and even then there is a chance... That all Tranquils do not want to be Tranquils if they had the chance to not be so again. Inquisitor: "What happened to the mages who helped you?" Casandra: "They went back to the Circles, with rewards and privileges and the most Holy's gratitude." With those words, it is impossible that it happened immediately since that runs contrary to what Cassandra says. And it's not like she'd lie, since she thinks the mages who helped deserve just as much credit as she got. Not all mages fear Tranquility. And some prefer it. For example the story of Orana. Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows. Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her studies began to suffer.
Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.
With her connection to the Fade severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.
Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer. —From Codex entry: Tranquility [/div] [/quote] Okay, it didn't happen immediately. She was like 7 in that movie and you literally quoted a story where an 11 year old was tranquiled for her health. Is 11 better than 7? Any more capable of consent?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 2:47:58 GMT
Yeah, except Tranquil are at peace with everything. They're called The Tranquil, not The Occasionally Tranquil.
IRL, it's actually not possible to function without emotions. They're a core component of all decision making. But BioWare has made it clear that modern neurology and psychology are worthless in the world of Thedas, where dreams come from another dimension, and some people can alter the physical world just by wishing hard enough.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:48:39 GMT
Inquisitor: "What happened to the mages who helped you?" Casandra: "They went back to the Circles, with rewards and privileges and the most Holy's gratitude." With those words, it is impossible that it happened immediately since that runs contrary to what Cassandra says. And it's not like she'd lie, since she thinks the mages who helped deserve just as much credit as she got. Not all mages fear Tranquility. And some prefer it. For example the story of Orana. Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows. Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her studies began to suffer. Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied. With her connection to the Fade severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting. Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer. —From Codex entry: Tranquility Okay, it didn't happen immediately. She was like 7 in that movie and you literally quoted a story where an 11 year old was tranquiled for her health. Is 11 better than 7? Any more capable of consent? Avexis was 10 in the movie actually. When it comes to matters where their life is a living hell, absolutely. Better than than forcing someone like Orana to endure however many more years of torture until deemed old enough to make that decision.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:49:22 GMT
Yeah, except Tranquil are at peace with everything. They're called The Tranquil, not The Occasionally Tranquil. IRL, it's actually not possible to function without emotions. They're a core component of all decision making. But BioWare has made it clear that modern neurology and psychology are worthless in the world of Thedas, where dreams come from another dimension, and some people can alter the physical world just by wishing hard enough. Isn't that what makes the world delightfully different?
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:50:48 GMT
Okay, it didn't happen immediately. She was like 7 in that movie and you literally quoted a story where an 11 year old was tranquiled for her health. Is 11 better than 7? Any more capable of consent? Avexis was 10 in the movie actually. When it comes to matters where their life is a living hell, absolutely. Better than than forcing someone like Orana to endure however many more years of torture until deemed old enough to make that decision. What about the comment that Avexis made that a non Tranquil-her would be unhappy by what has been done to her DURING her Tranquility? That doesn't raise eyebrows?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:53:18 GMT
Avexis was 10 in the movie actually. When it comes to matters where their life is a living hell, absolutely. Better than than forcing someone like Orana to endure however many more years of torture until deemed old enough to make that decision. What about the comment that Avexis made that a non Tranquil-her would be unhappy by what has been done to her DURING her Tranquility? That doesn't raise eyebrows? Depends what those events were. Could be things like abuse or could be things that would simply cause her sadness for example Gaylen's death since he was a friend.
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Post by phoray on Dec 23, 2018 2:55:50 GMT
What about the comment that Avexis made that a non Tranquil-her would be unhappy by what has been done to her DURING her Tranquility? That doesn't raise eyebrows? Depends what those events were. Could be things like abuse or could be things that would simply cause her sadness for example Gaylen's death since he was a friend. Ya, I find it unlikely it was something as harmless as basic grief . Not when most of the time they are hitting us over the head with the Tranquil Abuse narrative.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 2:58:05 GMT
Yeah, except Tranquil are at peace with everything. They're called The Tranquil, not The Occasionally Tranquil. IRL, it's actually not possible to function without emotions. They're a core component of all decision making. But BioWare has made it clear that modern neurology and psychology are worthless in the world of Thedas, where dreams come from another dimension, and some people can alter the physical world just by wishing hard enough. Isn't that what makes the world delightfully different? Well I don't have a problem with it. Fantasy can differ from reality as much as it likes. For all I care, Thedas can be made of pudding, and inhabited by sentient sock puppets. But it makes discussing the Tranquil very difficult. I have to take devs word for it that Tranquil are "purely logical because they lack emotion" (even though emotions are required for logical thinking IRL, because emotions are what give us our preferences for certain outcomes). But then they show us that Tranquil DO have preferences, but also do NOT always behave in logical accordance with those preferences. So what am I to think?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 2:59:30 GMT
Depends what those events were. Could be things like abuse or could be things that would simply cause her sadness for example Gaylen's death since he was a friend. Ya, I find it unlikely it was something as harmless as basic grief . Not when most of the time they are hitting us over the head with the Tranquil Abuse narrative. Right, losing someone close to you is "harmless". Ironic coming from a conversation about a character from a movie that shows just how much such a "harmless" action can affect a person.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 3:05:10 GMT
If Avexis specfically said the words "done to me" (I don't clearly recall), then she is undoubtedly talking about some sort of personal violation committed against her. A friend dying is NOT something that a person "does" to you, it's something that happens.
The choice of words is deliberate.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 23, 2018 3:07:33 GMT
If Avexis specfically said the words "done to me" (I don't clearly recall), then she is undoubtedly talking about some sort of personal violation committed against her. A friend dying is NOT something that a person "does" to you, it's something that happens. The choice of words is deliberate. She says "I may also experience discomfort over events that occurred while I was in this state." So she never says things done to her or stuff like that.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 23, 2018 3:09:46 GMT
If Avexis specfically said the words "done to me" (I don't clearly recall), then she is undoubtedly talking about some sort of personal violation committed against her. A friend dying is NOT something that a person "does" to you, it's something that happens. The choice of words is deliberate. She says "I may also experience discomfort over events that occurred while I was in this state." So she never says things done to her or stuff like that. Then it's too broad to make any definitive claims.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 23, 2018 3:32:07 GMT
Okay, it didn't happen immediately. She was like 7 in that movie and you literally quoted a story where an 11 year old was tranquiled for her health. Is 11 better than 7? Any more capable of consent? Avexis was 10 in the movie actually. When it comes to matters where their life is a living hell, absolutely. Better than than forcing someone like Orana to endure however many more years of torture until deemed old enough to make that decision. I agree to a point - if the suffering is unbearable then drastic procedures are justifiable even on minors or people with otherwise limited ability to consent. However, it becomes a problem when the system is designed in a way where the only solution to such problems is Tranquility. This is like if someone with severe anxiety or phobia lived in a system where the only possible cure for his/her problem is lobotomy.
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