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Post by capn233 on Oct 30, 2016 0:51:33 GMT
While we're on first gen jets, here is a fun one starring the Northrop F-89 Scorpion (the first interceptor to be armed with air-to-air nuclear weapons).  The Battle of PalmdaleOn August 16, 1956 there was a planned missile test involving an F6F-5K Hellcat drone (which is of course the best use for a Hellcat). The test area was supposed to be over the Pacific Ocean, but unfortunately the Navy lost control of the drone shortly after takeoff from NAS Point Mugu. The drone began a slow southeast turn towards LA, and typically it isn't ideal to have an uncontrolled drone heading towards a population center. Unfortunately the Navy didn't have any aircraft available that could intercept the drone, so they had to call the Air Force. Two F-89D's from the 437th Fighter-Intercept Squadron were scrambled from Oxnard AFB. Proceeding at full afterburner, they managed to spot the drone northeast of LA at 30,000ft. When the drone made another turn over LA, the Scorpions waited for it to fly out to an uninhabited area so they could engage with their 2.75in "Mighty Mouse" rockets. You see, this was in the period where technology was progressing faster than common sense, and the D model (main production variant) was also the first of the type that had it's six 20mm cannons deleted. The only armament they carried were the 52 unguided rockets in each wing tip. Nominally the rockets were supposed to be controlled by the new E6 fire control computer with two separate modes: tail chase, and 90* to beam. These D's were originally delivered with the gun sights for the old cannons, but since they had a wonderful computer to control the rockets, this clearly wasn't needed and they were removed. In any case, since the drone had been in a continuous turn, the crews of the intercepting aircraft attempted to use the second mode for the rockets. Unfortunately there was a flaw in the new-fangled system which prevented the rockets from firing automatically. This meant the crews had to go to manual control, which was a problem given that the gun sights had been deleted. There were a few manual modes for the rockets: All 104 over .4s, or a couple ripple fire modes with 2 or 3 ripples. Both crews set to three ripples. The drone was over Castaic at this point, and the first aircraft moved in and launched 42 rockets, which all missed. The second aircraft lined up and launched 42, which passed right below the Hellcat, with a couple actually glancing off the fuselage without detonating. On the next pass each launched 32 rockets, and missed again. Each aircraft had one shot of 32 rockets left. They moved in and each missed the lowly drone for the third time. The drone ended up running out of gas, and crashed 8 miles east of Palmdale Regional Airport after severing some electric cables. 208 rockets fired, and the drone was in the air until it ran out of gas. All they managed to accomplish was starting brush fires near Castaic that burned 150 acres, setting fires to oil sumps near Placerita Canyon, and also setting a fire that burned 350 acres near Mount Gleason. The last ripples were fired towards Palmdale, and many landed in the town. One resident had a piece go through her front window and ricochet through her house, ending up in her cupboard. A utility truck was destroyed near a tree where the workers were eating lunch. The good news was that there were no injuries. But it took fire fighters two days to control the brush fires. F-89Battle of PalmdaleGenie Rocket |
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Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 30, 2016 2:38:25 GMT
You guys know this is about spaceflight too right?  |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Oct 30, 2016 9:26:29 GMT
While we're on first gen jets, here is a fun one starring the Northrop F-89 Scorpion (the first interceptor to be armed with air-to-air nuclear weapons). The Battle of PalmdaleOn August 16, 1956 there was a planned missile test involving an F6F-5K Hellcat drone (which is of course the best use for a Hellcat). The test area was supposed to be over the Pacific Ocean, but unfortunately the Navy lost control of the drone shortly after takeoff from NAS Point Mugu. The drone began a slow southeast turn towards LA, and typically it isn't ideal to have an uncontrolled drone heading towards a population center. Unfortunately the Navy didn't have any aircraft available that could intercept the drone, so they had to call the Air Force. Two F-89D's from the 437th Fighter-Intercept Squadron were scrambled from Oxnard AFB. Proceeding at full afterburner, they managed to spot the drone northeast of LA at 30,000ft. When the drone made another turn over LA, the Scorpions waited for it to fly out to an uninhabited area so they could engage with their 2.75in "Mighty Mouse" rockets. You see, this was in the period where technology was progressing faster than common sense, and the D model (main production variant) was also the first of the type that had it's six 20mm cannons deleted. The only armament they carried were the 52 unguided rockets in each wing tip. Nominally the rockets were supposed to be controlled by the new E6 fire control computer with two separate modes: tail chase, and 90* to beam. These D's were originally delivered with the gun sights for the old cannons, but since they had a wonderful computer to control the rockets, this clearly wasn't needed and they were removed. In any case, since the drone had been in a continuous turn, the crews of the intercepting aircraft attempted to use the second mode for the rockets. Unfortunately there was a flaw in the new-fangled system which prevented the rockets from firing automatically. This meant the crews had to go to manual control, which was a problem given that the gun sights had been deleted. There were a few manual modes for the rockets: All 104 over .4s, or a couple ripple fire modes with 2 or 3 ripples. Both crews set to three ripples. The drone was over Castaic at this point, and the first aircraft moved in and launched 42 rockets, which all missed. The second aircraft lined up and launched 42, which passed right below the Hellcat, with a couple actually glancing off the fuselage without detonating. On the next pass each launched 32 rockets, and missed again. Each aircraft had one shot of 32 rockets left. They moved in and each missed the lowly drone for the third time. The drone ended up running out of gas, and crashed 8 miles east of Palmdale Regional Airport after severing some electric cables. 208 rockets fired, and the drone was in the air until it ran out of gas. All they managed to accomplish was starting brush fires near Castaic that burned 150 acres, setting fires to oil sumps near Placerita Canyon, and also setting a fire that burned 350 acres near Mount Gleason. The last ripples were fired towards Palmdale, and many landed in the town. One resident had a piece go through her front window and ricochet through her house, ending up in her cupboard. A utility truck was destroyed near a tree where the workers were eating lunch. The good news was that there were no injuries. But it took fire fighters two days to control the brush fires. F-89Battle of PalmdaleGenie RocketIt's called "reality check". (something I dearly fear for, in context of the F-35  ). Anyway, so basically, the only thing a Soviet bomber would have to do, to fly unharmed through US air space towards their targets, was to always fly in a slight turn? |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Oct 30, 2016 9:35:26 GMT
You guys know this is about spaceflight too right? Word of advice: I realize this thread is your child. But some things you have to let live their own life, or they might not live at all.  I have understood though, that my link to the Apollo mission images was a mistake. I should have downloaded some, fixed them up and posted them here instead. Because who goes away to look through thousands of faded slides, right? Well, maybe I'll do that some time. It all comes down to time. |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 30, 2016 11:36:27 GMT
I'm not forcing anything bud, so I'll pass on your advice. A suggestion and reminder of other topics on this thread is sometimes necessary after all.
I do. I do that all the time, and I'd love to actually talk flight with the people here, including civil flight and spaceflight. I'm FAA certified for single-engine propeller aircraft up to 4000 lbs in takeoff weight (think the Cessna 172). My grandfather owns a 172S, and I fly it every so often. He traded in his old Piper Cherokee for it when he got too old to run his retirement air-taxi business, along with several other aircraft that he owned for the company. He kept the Cherokee, but he'd had it since 1988, and he was getting too old to keep it in tip-top shape. So, he got a good deal on the 172S, and got that there. He's too old to fly now, and with Parkinson's, it makes little sense for him to keep the plane, but my dad and I are both pilots now, so we fly it instead. I'm looking to get a helicopter license myself.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Oct 30, 2016 17:50:52 GMT
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Oct 31, 2016 0:25:16 GMT
Beautiful beast, especially if armed with the W87 warhead.  |
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Post by Inquisitor Recon on Oct 31, 2016 4:50:43 GMT
The F-106. Last of the USAF's dedicated interceptors.   |
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 31, 2016 23:24:49 GMT
How many pilots do we have in here? I'd love to talk wonk with you guys!
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Nov 27, 2016 11:11:15 GMT
...Well, back to my obscure or misunderstood or odd: This is a WW2 plane that doesn't look like a success and by habitual rationality didn't deserve to be a success. Nevertheless, it was a considerable success.  The Fairey Fulmar, a British long range (by European standards), 2-seat (navigator/radio operator was considered necessary), carrierborne naval fighter. It shot down droves of Italian and German aircraft during the early WW2, mainly over the Mediterranean sea, with only rare own losses. Since it was fairly slow for a fighter, its success emphasizes how important it is to use a tool the right way. The Fulmar was kept in theatres where it would typically meet only bombers and Italian fighter types. If the Fulmar, even once, had been used in an attempt to defend against, say, FW 190 fighterbombers, it's reputation would likely have been considerably different. Something of an emergency program, its story of conception starts with RAF's fondness for light, single engine bombers. Between the wars, RAF had found this type of aircraft very useful and economical. It was certainly the right kind of aircraft for smallscale operations against all kinds of local disturbances in Britain's colonies all over the globe. RAF had used huge numbers of these, Airco DH.9A, Fairey Fox, Hawker Hart, Hawker Hind. So it's only natural that successors are planned. And in the early 1930'ies monoplane wings and retractable landing gear was all in vogue. So a requirement for a new long range, single engine, light bomber was drawn up. This was called the P.27/P32 specification. It eventually resulted in the development and procurement of the Fairey Battle. Since the Battle was eventually used in the technical WW2, rather than against spear and musket armed tribes, it would prove the utter disastrousness of the concept. But even before that, a number of people felt the Fairey Battle could be improved upon. This resulted in the Specification P.4/34. Fairey's contender lost this contract, which was won by the Hawker Henley (which never served in combat). But Fairey revamped their design as a "fighter" and navalised it, all to fit a new Specification O.8/38 for a suddenly desperately needed fleet defence fighter. This was the Fairey Fulmar. The Fleet Air Arm eventually bought Wildcats and even Hellcats. But before that, the Fulmar had its day. |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jan 7, 2017 9:32:31 GMT
I had planned to do something different to bump this thread, but this will do fine:
As a bonus, you get the Phantom in the Mach Loop:
As a further bonus, more Greek F-4s flown hard:
Finally an old flying display:
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jan 20, 2017 13:41:18 GMT
It's amazing to remember that Britain actually bombed the air field at Falkland Islands with these planes. ...Flying from Britain!
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Jan 29, 2017 17:47:36 GMT
- Feminists! - Yeaye!  In Bagram, Afganistan. I particularly like the way the trousers stretch tight across the bum as they climb into the cockpit <...pant, pant...>  - Great camera angle.  |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Feb 19, 2017 18:32:53 GMT
...Also meanwhile:
(Oops, I posted this in science, nevermind, that's ok too.)
SpaceX's 10'th commercial resupply services mission.
You might want to go forward about 14 minutes for the start.
Something about what you see: Stage 1 makes a backwards burn after releasing stage 2. This gives it a return velocity back to Florida.
It then makes a braking burn at one point to relieve aerodynamic forces and temperature at reentry. But otherwise it relies on atmosphere to brake it. At the last moment it makes a so called 'suicide burn' (called so because if you don't get it precisely right you crash) to land softly.
Meanwhile, stage 2 accelerates to an intercepting orbit of the international space station. The 'Dragon' finally, is the actual space vehicle.
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Post by mattig89ch on Feb 21, 2017 9:46:56 GMT
This seems relevant:
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 21, 2017 13:30:36 GMT
I know nothing about aviation or space flight, but I did read a biography about the Wright Brothers last year.
They were pretty neat, and as I understand it basically reinvented the science of avionics from the ground up after they realized everyone everything they had read on the subject was dead wrong.
So let's give a hand to those bicycle repairmen from Ohio!
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 11, 2017 22:14:26 GMT
I know nothing about aviation or space flight, but I did read a biography about the Wright Brothers last year. They were pretty neat, and as I understand it basically reinvented the science of avionics from the ground up after they realized everyone everything they had read on the subject was dead wrong. So let's give a hand to those bicycle repairmen from Ohio! This is true. But they didn't exactly re-invent the science of aviation, they invented it. Meaning they studied the matter in experiments and formalized some basic laws, built a wind-tunnel and measured wing profiles. When they built their aircraft they knew what they were doing. They engineered it. Everybody else just guessed wildly and went with flawed intuition based on poor understanding. They were way ahead of everybody else and there should be no confusion about who invented the airplane. And it's not a shared honor. There are no "co-inventors". There are only others who tried. |
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
Posts: 5,849 Likes: 13,558
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 11, 2017 23:26:06 GMT
I know nothing about aviation or space flight, but I did read a biography about the Wright Brothers last year. They were pretty neat, and as I understand it basically reinvented the science of avionics from the ground up after they realized everyone everything they had read on the subject was dead wrong. So let's give a hand to those bicycle repairmen from Ohio! This is true. But they didn't exactly re-invent the science of aviation, they invented it. Meaning they studied the matter in experiments and formalized some basic laws, built a wind-tunnel and measured wing profiles. When they built their aircraft they knew what they were doing. They engineered it. Everybody else just guessed wildly and went with flawed intuition based on poor understanding. They were way ahead of everybody else and there should be no confusion about who invented the airplane. And it's not a shared honor. There are no "co-inventors". There are only others who tried. Well, I say "reinvented" because there was a "science" of aviation before them and they acquired books to read up on the topic. They then realized it was all malarkey and started from scratch. |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 11, 2017 23:34:34 GMT
Time again for one of my obscure aircraft presentations:  The Vought F7U Cutlass.  How the h*** did a contraption like this come about? Well, the design started during WW2. At this time, aircraft aerodynamics was a science in very steep development. Which also means they didn't really know exactly what they were doing. In particular there were a few false convictions around. One was an obsession with trying to find greater performance by reducing the aircraft structure and thus surface area and 'wet' drag. The most pure example of this would be the flying wing, which Northrop and Horten tried to realize. But there were plenty of other amputated designs floating around. USA had its fair share of them, all of them scrapped early when the practice didn't confirm their designer's hope. And the desperate Germany had a pile of pencil sketches of strange "advanced" designs lying around. Japan had at least one as well. So the F7U Cutlass is partially a representative of this zeitgeist, but also an attempt to solve the problem of combining high speed jet-flight with slow landing and take-off speeds. They needed a narrow wing span but a large wing area. Meaning a wide chord. And they needed to fly at high AoA. And they tried to keep the wet drag of the structure to a minimum. Well, it doesn't work. Those ideas are wrong. The reason is there is a drag penalty for keeping the flight attitude stable. The *fabulous* flying wing is inefficient. Draggy! And so are all the truncated and amputated designs. Same problem. The ultimate design for an aerodynamically statically stable aircraft is the conventional tailed concept. Which is why it has ruled postwar aircraft design. The game doesn't change until you're able to design and fly unstable aircraft by means of computerized artificial stabilisation. Which we can now. Hence the B2. Anyway, you can see that drag penalty in effect, in the topmost picture. Look at the control surfaces at the aileron position. Sharply deflected upwards, for generating a strong downforce. - But this is on the wing! Which is supposed to generate lift. The reasons it works, are the wide chord and the sweep-back. But it's not a good solution. So the F7U Cutlass wasn't aerodynamically efficient. Another thing it wasn't, was controllable at low speeds, an essential requirement for carrier operations. There was simply not enough control authority left, when the flight attitude was forced into high AoA and a high Cl (coefficient of lift). At that flight attitude it is also very draggy, crucially needing its engine power. And precisely that was the F7U Cutlass' undoing and demise. This was a time when much work remained to do on jet-engines. Engine failures racked up string of fatal accidents during landings. The aircraft went into service 1954, and serious attempts to use it stopped in 1957. Only a handful of units deployed on a cruise and no-one more than once or for more than a few months. The plane killed about two dozen pilots and was formally retired in 1959. While the design concept was flawed and based on flawed thinking, that really only ensured a substandard performance envelope. What really killed off this aircraft was the poor engines. Given engines with greater reliability and thrust at low speeds, its service history and reputation would likely have been different. |
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 30, 2017 19:56:28 GMT
A rarity.
...Today.
With a rather significant historical footprint.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Apr 3, 2017 19:14:22 GMT
- It's been done!
Last Thursday, March 30, a space rocket made a second journey for the first time in history.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Apr 19, 2017 10:16:23 GMT
To be honest, I didn't knew that many B-25's were in flying condition.
This is a bit long.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 3, 2017 8:57:27 GMT
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Post by straykat on May 3, 2017 8:58:30 GMT
The F-35 is growing on me...
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on May 14, 2017 21:16:53 GMT
More F-35A.
Note how he lights the afterburner before each hard maneuver, and how he still comes to almost a standstill from drag during the ridiculously high AoA he needs for the required Cl.
I don't think it's a worry. The F-35A is a hot airplane and should perform at its best by flying fast. It's its natural state. It shouldn't be flown like this in combat.
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