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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 17:49:47 GMT
Except that the Prothean scientists are only "on the cusp" of developing that technology when the Reapers hit the Citadel... You are demanding a very precise answer from a very vague statement. My impression is that the Conduit, which includes the half of the device on the Citadel, is a prototype. If research has the reached prototype-replication stage then one could say the research is on the cusp of its final breakthrough. I'm not demanding anything. Your explanation is also a "fair assumption"... but then it doesn't explain how it is the Protheans got their prototype onto the Citadel after the invasion of the Citadel (if that's when they put it there) or why they chose to put it there - all the way across the galaxy from Ilos if it was a test of the prototype (if they put it there before the invasion). It doesn't explain how it is able to function at a longer distance than any other relay in the galaxy. It doesn't explain why it is that it is one way only when no other relay functions that way (primary ones function in locked pairs and secondary ones can't transport ships over that long of a distance). It doesn't explain why it's more accurate than the large relays... pinpointing the exit within meters; whereas, 1500 km is considered "good" for the big ones... and an accomplishment equivalent to hitting a target "the size of a pinhead" according to Joker.
My point is that it is not explained and doesn't really tie together no matter how you choose to look at it. It is a plot hole. Someday Bioware could choose to explain it all away (probably with retcons) and then the plot hole would be closed. For now, though, it's there. That's all. It's a plot hole in ME1... so ME1 has them, just the same as ME2 has them and ME3 has them. IMO, all four ME games are of a similar quality... with different strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 31, 2019 21:36:50 GMT
Why is an explanation needed for the mini-me relay? That information wasn't needed to stop Saren. As I said previously, it's too bad that Shepard didn't go back to Ilos to ask questions and/or meet Javik on the Citadel by the mini-me relay for him to do his touch thing to give information that could answer those questions. Speculation for everyone. Hmmm. Didn't Walters say that?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 23:09:42 GMT
Why is an explanation needed for the mini-me relay? That information wasn't needed to stop Saren. As I said previously, it's too bad that Shepard didn't go back to Ilos to ask questions and/or meet Javik on the Citadel by the mini-me relay for him to do his touch thing to give information that could answer those questions. Speculation for everyone. Hmmm. Didn't Walters say that? Plot Hole: Per Wikipedia: "In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.[1] Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical, unlikely or impossible or events,[2] and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. The term is more loosely also applied to "loose ends" in a plot – side-lined story elements that remain unresolved by the end of the plot."
It exists as a plot hole... that's all. I could ask why is there this insistence the ME1 be immune from having plot holes? The inconsistency is in the fact that primary relays (the ones that work over longer distances, we are told, work in fixed pairs). We are also told they involve 1500 km of drift. The mini-relay, despite being a mere prototype built by newbs in the science of mass relays, defies and outperforms every single primary relay in the galaxy. The illogical event is that newbs in the science would opt to test a mini-prototype that, for lack of a better explanation, is not even completely functioning since it only works one way, with the longest galactic relay jump right through the galactic core landing in an area where anything more than a few meters of drift would result in a complete failure of the test.
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Post by sassafrassa on Jan 3, 2020 17:23:29 GMT
but then it doesn't explain how it is the Protheans got their prototype onto the Citadel after the invasion of the Citadel (if that's when they put it there) or why they chose to put it there - all the way across the galaxy from Ilos if it was a test of the prototype The logical assumption is that the prototype was already on the Citadel. As part of the testing. Why there and not somewhere else is frivolous detail. I an imagine any number of reasons but answering that question is not necessary for the story of Mass Effect to make sense. You are being very petty. It's not a plot hole. It's certainly something that COULD be filled in by supplemental material but that is not likely to ever happen for a multitude of reasons, chief among them that explaining it in further detail does nothing to advance the main story. It's a not plot-hole because the details of the Conduit are not important to the PLOT. Are you next going to ask why Ilos was a research world and not some other world? Like I said, you are being petty. None of this makes ME2 look any better. It's a very disingenuous and misguided attempt to defend that game. The only thing more questionable is your motivation for doing so. I promise, ME2 being badly written and you liking it in spite of that is note a blight upon your honor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 19:20:04 GMT
but then it doesn't explain how it is the Protheans got their prototype onto the Citadel after the invasion of the Citadel (if that's when they put it there) or why they chose to put it there - all the way across the galaxy from Ilos if it was a test of the prototype The logical assumption is that the prototype was already on the Citadel. As part of the testing. Why there and not somewhere else is frivolous detail. I an imagine any number of reasons but answering that question is not necessary for the story of Mass Effect to make sense. You are being very petty. It's not a plot hole. It's certainly something that COULD be filled in by supplemental material but that is not likely to ever happen for a multitude of reasons, chief among them that explaining it in further detail does nothing to advance the main story. It's a not plot-hole because the details of the Conduit are not important to the PLOT. Are you next going to ask why Ilos was a research world and not some other world? Like I said, you are being petty. None of this makes ME2 look any better. It's a very disingenuous and misguided attempt to defend that game. The only thing more questionable is your motivation for doing so. I promise, ME2 being badly written and you liking it in spite of that is note a blight upon your honor. I don't consider it a frivolous detail when the jump to the Citadel from Ilos is literally across the entire galaxy and directly through the galactic core. That's not a logical choice for a test of a prototype by a culture that are newbs to the science of relays to start with.
I'm not trying to make ME2 look better. All 4 games have plot holes and flaws. They are of similar quality. ME1 does not sit on a pedestal of perfection. You can whitewash its flaws all day long... that doesn't make them disappear.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 3, 2020 20:48:36 GMT
That's the problem with this entire line of argument. "Frivolous detail" means nothing more or less than something which didn't bother sassafrassa at the time he played. When he's posting, that is. When you're posting, it means something entirely different.
Like I said upthread, the actual issue here is that you and I have higher standards than sassafrassa, so the series always failed to make much sense to us. We got past it because of the series' other strengths.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 21:34:50 GMT
That's the problem with this entire line of argument. "Frivolous detail" means nothing more or less than something which didn't bother sassafrassa at the time he played. When he's posting, that is. When you're posting, it means something entirely different. Like I said upthread, the actual issue here is that you and I have higher standards than sassafrassa, so the series always failed to make much sense to us. We got past it because of the series' other strengths. Any discussion of plot holes or writing in general is fraught with subjective judgments. Of course different people will be "bothered" by different things and not bothered by other different things. It still fits the defined criteria of a plot hole.
ME1 is imperfect. All 4 ME games are imperfect. I honestly don't get why saying that is such a big deal... and why, without my even mentioning ME2, it's put off as a " very disingenuous and misguided attempt to defend that game." I enjoy playing all of them... as you say, they all of different strengths. Shrug.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 5, 2020 1:10:34 GMT
While I don't think how this was handled was good writing I'm not sure I'd call it a plot hole either. As they established in the story that whether we are talking about the Reapers or the Protheans they had access to superior technology that the MW races currently either didn't fully understand or had no grasp of at all. Whether Reaper relays or Prothean beacons, it was technology we didn't understand, and in the case of the Protheans mostly lost. So the Protheans having access to an additional device that we also didn't understand isn't IMO a big enough leap to be a inconsistent story point.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 5, 2020 1:55:29 GMT
Although that would require the Codex, and thus scientists in Council space, to be blatantly wrong about relays despite having observed their operation for millennia.
But really, it doesn't matter. We all know that what really happened is that the guys writing the endgame didn't think through exactly how they could get the effect they wanted with the techs established in the universe. It looks cool, so they did it. Whether the result of that is a " plot hole" or not is of no importance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 10:32:32 GMT
While I don't think how this was handled was good writing I'm not sure I'd call it a plot hole either. As they established in the story that whether we are talking about the Reapers or the Protheans they had access to superior technology that the MW races currently either didn't fully understand or had no grasp of at all. Whether Reaper relays or Prothean beacons, it was technology we didn't understand, and in the case of the Protheans mostly lost. So the Protheans having access to an additional device that we also didn't understand isn't IMO a big enough leap to be a inconsistent story point. ... and an inconsistent story point is a plot hole. Reference the definition of a plot hole I quoted above.
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Post by ahglock on Jan 5, 2020 21:51:57 GMT
While I don't think how this was handled was good writing I'm not sure I'd call it a plot hole either. As they established in the story that whether we are talking about the Reapers or the Protheans they had access to superior technology that the MW races currently either didn't fully understand or had no grasp of at all. Whether Reaper relays or Prothean beacons, it was technology we didn't understand, and in the case of the Protheans mostly lost. So the Protheans having access to an additional device that we also didn't understand isn't IMO a big enough leap to be a inconsistent story point. ... and an inconsistent story point is a plot hole. Reference the definition of a plot hole I quoted above.
I saw your definition I don’t think this meets that criteria. I don’t find it inconsistent, just unexplained. Advanced unexplained technology the current MW races don’t understand is consistent with a story that has a advanced race that’s been gone for 50k years or a super advanced race of space Cthulhu’s.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 0:58:28 GMT
... and an inconsistent story point is a plot hole. Reference the definition of a plot hole I quoted above.
I saw your definition I don’t think this meets that criteria. I don’t find it inconsistent, just unexplained. Advanced unexplained technology the current MW races don’t understand is consistent with a story that has a advanced race that’s been gone for 50k years or a super advanced race of space Cthulhu’s. I'm not buying that. How the relays function are explained in the codex... expressly divided into two types: Primary - which work in set pairs (point to point in both directions) and which are the ones that expressly are able to teleport ships over the longer distances. The secondary ones connect to multiple other relays but cannot transport ships as far. We are told that. Furthermore, the galaxy map itself expressly shows us no jumps nearly as long as the Ilos to the Citadel one and shows us none going directly through the galactic core. ME2 later made a big deal about the Omega 4 Relay and ships not returning from the galactic core and showed us a big boneyard of ships within the galactic core.
To the Protheans, the mini-relay is not an advanced tech not understood... it is the device they built on Ilos. We are expressly told that they were just discovering the science of Mass Relays and that this was their prototype. The distance of the jump says it is a Primary Relay. The Reapers would not then have built it without its pair... and we KNOW the Protheans built the one on Ilos... And according to the "science" we are told in the Codex, the Protheans would not have been able to tie into an existing Prime Relay since it would be already committed to its mate. You don't logically build a first prototype to do well beyond what anything known has done before. That would be the equivalent of NASA building their very first Gemini spaceship to land a man on Neptune without testing it first in our own orbit or unmanned, etc.
It is an inconsistency because it goes directly contra to what we are told about Mass Relays and what the species of the current cycle did already know about them... or else those descriptions of how the Primary and Secondary mass relays work shouldn't be in the Codex because then they reveal something beyond the understanding of the species in the game. It's a plot hole. The circular nature of this discussion alone proves it.
It also defies what we are told at the beginning of the game about drift. The game makes a big deal out of 1500 km of drift being "good"... over the shorter jump from Eden Prime to the Citadel. Then, on a jump across the entire galaxy without a vehicle able to navigate space at all, that little relay plunks Shepard down within a few meters of the base of that mini-relay statue.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 6, 2020 19:05:04 GMT
Note the structure of the counterargument is now that the game's OK because the lore is a confused mess and they never really defined anything. Kind of like pro-IT arguments, where no evidence against the argument can work because any inconvenient fact is part of the indoctrination and therefore dismissable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 20:00:13 GMT
Note the structure of the counterargument is now that the game's OK because the lore is a confused mess and they never really defined anything. Kind of like pro-IT arguments, where no evidence against the argument can work because any inconvenient fact is part of the indoctrination and therefore dismissable. The games are OK, regardless... because speculating about filling the plot holes is a large part of the basis of discussion here and precisely why, in part, they are so interactively engaging. As I said earlier, Bioware itself could, someday, decide to explain it all and close the plot hole.
As you said earlier:
' We all know that what really happened is that the guys writing the endgame didn't think through exactly how they could get the effect they wanted with the techs established in the universe. It looks cool, so they did it."
The inconsistencies were entirely avoidable... For example, eliminate the coversation between Joker and Nihilus about drift and the Mass Relays become consistently accurate to within meters. Move Ilos close to the Citadel on the Galaxy Map and the notion of the Mini-Relay being a Prime Relay disappears.
If, at some point, Bioware develops a sense of consistency among all their various writiers... we'll have games with even better quality stories. That's all. Putting one's head in the sand and seeing the start of it all as perfection and everything that follows as only a downward slide (because a particular writer left) isn't helpful towards solving the issues. Writing staff will change from game to game and within games, so will animation staff, and even management. Tighter outlines to the stories need to be drafted ahead of time (IMO). For a choice-based interactive story, that is an undeniably monumental task.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 6, 2020 23:13:19 GMT
Note the structure of the counterargument is now that the game's OK because the lore is a confused mess and they never really defined anything. Kind of like pro-IT arguments, where no evidence against the argument can work because any inconvenient fact is part of the indoctrination and therefore dismissable. The games are OK, regardless... because speculating about filling the plot holes is a large part of the basis of discussion here and precisely why, in part, they are so interactively engaging. As I said earlier, Bioware itself could, someday, decide to explain it all and close the plot hole.
As you said earlier:
' We all know that what really happened is that the guys writing the endgame didn't think through exactly how they could get the effect they wanted with the techs established in the universe. It looks cool, so they did it."
The inconsistencies were entirely avoidable... For example, eliminate the coversation between Joker and Nihilus about drift and the Mass Relays become consistently accurate to within meters. Move Ilos close to the Citadel on the Galaxy Map and the notion of the Mini-Relay being a Prime Relay disappears.
If, at some point, Bioware develops a sense of consistency among all their various writiers... we'll have games with even better quality stories. That's all. Putting one's head in the sand and seeing the start of it all as perfection and everything that follows as only a downward slide (because a particular writer left) isn't helpful towards solving the issues. Writing staff will change from game to game and within games, so will animation staff, and even management. Tighter outlines to the stories need to be drafted ahead of time (IMO). For a choice-based interactive story, that is an undeniably monumental task.
As I've said many times before I highly doubt that Casey Hudson and Drew Karpyshen wrote a detail outline on the entire MET. At best some concepts, story lines, characters, and gameplay ideas they wanted to do in ME1 (like the paragon/renegade interrupts) that they couldn't do for one reason or another and used that in ME2, ME3, and MEA when they figured out how to use it. I think Hudson, Karpyshen, and Walters each had some vague ideas for how it was going to fit together, but the whole overarching story for all 3 games is weak to say the least and it shows in many places. I don't know if having a detailed outline would've worked since you can't predict which characters were going to be very popular and which ones weren't. I never would've thought Tali would have been as popular because she is the most boring character in ME1 but she became one of the most popular characters in the series.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 4:02:53 GMT
The games are OK, regardless... because speculating about filling the plot holes is a large part of the basis of discussion here and precisely why, in part, they are so interactively engaging. As I said earlier, Bioware itself could, someday, decide to explain it all and close the plot hole.
As you said earlier:
' We all know that what really happened is that the guys writing the endgame didn't think through exactly how they could get the effect they wanted with the techs established in the universe. It looks cool, so they did it."
The inconsistencies were entirely avoidable... For example, eliminate the coversation between Joker and Nihilus about drift and the Mass Relays become consistently accurate to within meters. Move Ilos close to the Citadel on the Galaxy Map and the notion of the Mini-Relay being a Prime Relay disappears.
If, at some point, Bioware develops a sense of consistency among all their various writiers... we'll have games with even better quality stories. That's all. Putting one's head in the sand and seeing the start of it all as perfection and everything that follows as only a downward slide (because a particular writer left) isn't helpful towards solving the issues. Writing staff will change from game to game and within games, so will animation staff, and even management. Tighter outlines to the stories need to be drafted ahead of time (IMO). For a choice-based interactive story, that is an undeniably monumental task.
As I've said many times before I highly doubt that Casey Hudson and Drew Karpyshen wrote a detail outline on the entire MET. At best some concepts, story lines, characters, and gameplay ideas they wanted to do in ME1 (like the paragon/renegade interrupts) that they couldn't do for one reason or another and used that in ME2, ME3, and MEA when they figured out how to use it. I think Hudson, Karpyshen, and Walters each had some vague ideas for how it was going to fit together, but the whole overarching story for all 3 games is weak to say the least and it shows in many places. I don't know if having a detailed outline would've worked since you can't predict which characters were going to be very popular and which ones weren't. I never would've thought Tali would have been as popular because she is the most boring character in ME1 but she became one of the most popular characters in the series.
I agree. Here though, we have been talking about inconsistencies that exist within that first single game. It is clear that the Relay concept changed sometime between the start of ME1's story and the end of it.
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Post by cloud9 on Jan 12, 2020 3:43:41 GMT
You do know that whatever you're looking into is harvesting entire colonies of people... and yet you're suggesting Shepard might attempt to sort it out without any sort of team backing him/her up. No, that is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that for all Shepard knows he needs an army, not a team. If he is going to pick specific people then he needs people with broad, specific skills, that can help him understand his enemy. Mordin and Okeer fit this, but the rest do not. We already have soldiers, biotics, and engineers. It's a lot of time and effort to go after these other squadmates when lives are already in jeopardy, recruitment is a violent affair, and we don't actually know if we need these people or what we might need them for. All I'm asking for here is that the plot include a bit more logic from TIM or Shepard or both. I explained this earlier. A dozen commandos is not wide coverage for an unknown this large. Shepard needs more information to more plausibly decide on the team he needs to assemble. Fine, so the Conduit is one way. Why does this matter to the plot? How does it affect the plot? If it doesn't affect the plot in a large way then it is trivial. I stress again, you had better start questioning why Shepard never takes a crap. You are straining really hard here to pull ME1 down to ME2's level and it is very dishonest. None of the rest is relevant to ME1's plot either and is not a plot hole. Next will you explain to me how implausible it is that humans, batarians, and asari can all wear the same armor? How convenient it is that all the species are roughly proportioned the same and thus able to use the same doorways? This is not a clever line of thought. Do you know why the Reapers utilized a slave race to run the Citadel instead of doing it themselves? There'd be no game otherwise. There is no Mass Effect game if the Reapers just employed real hardcore real-world logic and made a fool proof system. You understand? The narrative is structured to tell a specific story. Perhaps different stories could have been told if things were put together differently, but they'd surely have different themes. Reapers use Keepers as slaves. They regard geth as mere tools. Just like Saren uses the krogan, rachni, and Thorian, who in turn used the colonists on Zhu's Hope. Saren decides to live as a slave to avoid death, but Shepard would rather die. Notice the interconnected theme here? Notice as well the irony of Sovereign gloating about how organic life only develops along the technological lines the Reapers lay out for them, yet it was the Protheans surpassing the trappings of the Mass Relay network, by beginning to master it for themselves, that has enabled Shepard to thwart the Reapers now? There's a point to all of it. What point does ME2 have? Outside of the loyalty missions, that is. Those are pretty good. Thank you!!!!
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Post by Ascend on Feb 5, 2020 16:17:13 GMT
You're making my point. You dismiss a number of issues people here have mentioned about ME1 as being "minor points." "Audio" vs. "memory" is a minor point. What you suggest are minor points are not. Yeah they are. None of them are necessary for the story to move forward, be understood, or make sense. No real logical leaps are necessary. This is nothing like building a team when we have no idea what our actual mission is. This is nothing like Mordin studying Collector tech we never actually obtained. This is nothing like the Collector's whole goal having no apparent relation to the main conflict of the series and not appearing to really serve the Reaper's agenda in a substantial way. This is nothing like the mystery mission where the crew decides to fly away on the shuttle randomly to go nowhere just to avoid being there when the Collector's attack. This is nothing like all the crap with Cerberus. You are picking minor holes in the plot. You might as well question why we never see anyone go to the bathroom or sleep. It's that trivial and nonsensical. Here is how ME1's plot works. We land on Eden Prime to get a Prothean Beacon. We want the Beacon because they tend to contain important information or technology that is very valuable to the galaxy. Thus we go there in the Normandy, a stealth ship, to quietly retrieve it. Shepard is on this mission, along with a Council Spectre, to assess Shepard's potential to become the first human Spectre. When the Normandy arrives the planet is under attack by geth, lead by a mysterious space ship. The Spectre is killed and we learn from a witness he was murdered by another Spectre named Saren who appears to be working with the geth. Shepard accidentally uses the Beacon and it is destroyed due to Saren's sabotage. Next Shepard and co visit the Citadel to meet with the Council, requesting that they label Saren a traitor. They refuse due to a lack of evidence though it is pointed out that all the red tape prevented a real investigation so we conduct our own. Garrus can join us because he has quit his job and wants to go after Saren to redeem the image of his people. Wrex can join us because his boss, the Shadow Broker, has some vendetta against a local criminal who betrayed him, along with Saren. Wrex wants both dead. After learning that a quarian attempted to sell evidence to the Shadow Broker but was betrayed we track her down and save her life. On the way it is pointed out that Saren's apparent hostility to the Shadow Broker is very strange because the Broker is a useful ally for anyone to have. As she has proven herself a capable geth killer and hacker we wind up taking Tali onto our crew. We then present our evidence to the Council and Saren is declared a traitor. We learn he is after something called "The Conduit" but we don't know where he is so we are given command of the Normandy to go and find him. As we leave Anderson gives Shepard some tips on possible sightings of Saren or his followers. These are: Feros: a former Prothean world with a small human colony on it in a remote area of space that has recently dropped out of contact after reporting sightings of geth. Noveria: a shady planet outside Council space used to conduct business and research that might cross the line into illegality. There are reports of geth there. Therum: the daughter of Saren's key ally, who is also a Prothean expert, is in the Artemis Tau cluster and as we are after a mysterious Prothean artifact we should find her and talk to her. It turns out on Feros that Saren is after something called the Cipher, which allows a person to think like a Prothean and better understand their Beacons. However when we obtain it we realize it is not enough because part of the Beacon vision is missing and/or because Shepard just isn't knowledgable enough about the Protheans to use the information. On Noveria we discover that Saren funded the cloning of the Rachni, using his second in command, Benezia, to probe a Rachni queen's mind for the coordinates of a conduit into a mysterious region of space. However without the full beacon vision and better understanding of the Protheans we still don't know where to go from there. At Therum we meet Liara, who is under assault by Saren's troops, who want to capture her. Bonding with her she reveals that we need another Beacon to complete the vision. During this time we've been told about Virmire, another remote world where a Council STG team dropped after contact after running into geth. We go there and discover they are assaulting Saren's headquarters where he is cloning krogan for his army and hiding another Beacon. We venture into the base and learn that the massive space ship Saren uses can mind control people. This is called indoctrination and we now understand precisely how Benezia fell under Saren's sway despite her original goal being to pacify them. Past events now make MORE sense. We destroy the base and use the Beacon, and discover the truth about Sovereign; that it is a Reaper and that its kin still live, somewhere, and will soon destroy us. This is why Saren has turned traitor; believing it is better to live as a slave than die free. He tells us that the geth follow him because they worship Sovereign as a superior synthetic lifeform. Once the mission is done we have all the info we need; the Conduit is on Ilos, which is accessed through the relay we got from the rachni queen. The Council wants a word with us first as they are amassing a fleet to protect the Citadel. We request to pursue Saren to Ilos but the Council refuses, with Udina's help. We have become a problem for them and they are putting us on lockdown. We use Anderson's advice/help to steal away from the station and reach Ilos. It is under blockade by Saren's fleet of geth but our convenient stealth ship lets us slip down to the bottom, zeroing in on strange energy readings that are likely the Conduit. As we chase him down we meet a Protehan VI that reveals the true nature of the Citadel and mass relays; a gigantic trap placed by the Reapers for organics to use. As a central location it because the seat of galactic government but it is also a massive mass relay and when the Reapers come through they capture the galactic capital, turn off the Mass Relay network, and slowly hunt down their prey. Sovereign is likely a sentinel that stays behind in the galaxy to monitor the progress of organic life and then sends a signal to the Citadel, which controls the Keepers, to open up the mass relay and begin the harvest. However the last time this happened the Protheans had already begun to reverse engineer the mass relays, even building their own prototype; the Conduit. After hibernating until after the Reapers returned to dark space through the Citadel Mass Relay they Prothean scientists then used the Conduit ti travel to the Citadel and upload a program into the Citadel induces it or the Keepers to ignore signals from Sovereign. As such it turns out Sovereign has been locked out, unable to summon its brethren or let them into the galaxy, and it has now hatched a plan to hijack the Citadel directly. Whether it is desperate or overconfident isn't quite clear but if we don't stop it right now the Reapers will enter through the relay and life as we know it will end. So, we use the Conduit and reach the Citadel, fight our way to the master control unit, and then defeat Saren and via' proxy, Sovereign. The cost is high but Sovereign is destroyed and humanity ascends to power one way or another. The new human Councilor joins with the alien Council and vows to find some way to defeat the Reapers, which are still coming... Now, notice a few things here. The story flows organically and logically. As well, Shepard is key to this plot because Shepard used the beacon on Eden Prime. Shepard was there to use it because Shepard is established as an elite human soldier. However had Shepard never used the beacon it would be impossible for him to stop Saren. He'd never get enough information even if he still exposed him as a traitor and fought him on Feros, Noveria, Therum, and Virmire. He wouldn't be able to reach Ilos. It is true we are never told the details of the geth that Tali got the evidence from. Nor are we told explicitly how long after Eden Prime our meeting with the Council is. We aren't told any of this because none of it is important to the plot. It is needless details that would drag down the pacing and story telling if they were shoved in there. The story lines of Feros, Noveria, and Virmire, also touch upon an overarching theme of control and slavery, something brought up elsewhere in the game too and in the ultimate confrontation with Saren. It all fits together. Now let's try ME2. -- The game opens with the Normandy somewhere in space after a mysterious foe. The vessel is ambushed by a new enemy and destroyed and Shepard is apparently killed. Our last vision of Shepard is the commander suffocating in space, in free fall, alone, appearing to enter the atmosphere of a planet at high speed, lighting up with heat as they do so. It is implied they'd burn up in the atmosphere of whatever planet they are over, at least to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of astrophysics and space travel. The narrative shifts abruptly however to Shepard waking up on an operating table in an unfamiliar military base that is under attack by mechs. A voice directs us to safety but an doctor, whom we recognize as someone involved in our resurrection, is revealed as a traitor who works for the Shadow Broker. Why this person betrayed us and their comrades is not given. Why the Shadow Broker opposed this is not given. We learn we have been dead for two years but Cerberus, a potential enemy from the first game, brought us back. We are never told how Cerberus did this and are given only shallow explanation of why. Apparently Shepard is an icon of humanity. What does this mean? Why does this make Shepard the only person who can save the galaxy? Remember, in ME1 Shepard had the vision from the beacon. Everything else was supplemental to that, fundamentally. Our meeting with the Illusive Man reveals that human colonists are vanishing in the Terminus Systems. Nobody knows why or how but the Illusive Man believes the Reapers are involved. He sends us to Freedom's Progress, which has just gone dark, and there we ultimately confirm our suspicions; the colonists are being abducted by a mysterious race known as the Collectors. Shepard promises to stop them and the game proper begins. We are shocked to meet Joker, who has apparently joined Cerberus, despite their past deeds, and we learn that Cerberus has built a new and improved version of the Normandy. Shepard is given a list of possible recruits for his team and two stand out: Mordin Solus is an former STG agent and a renown scientist. It is apparent that we will need his expertise if we are to counter the seeker swarms that the Collectors use to paralyze people. Dr. Okeer is a krogan scientist and warlord who has actually had dealings with the Collectors, so we want to pick his brain to learn about them. Then we have the mercenaries who Cerberus paid for, fair enough, and then Archangel and Subject Zero. Archangel is a skilled team leader who is running a vigilante campaign on Omega. Subject Zero is a criminal biotic, unstable, and an inmate in a prison. The game does not advance until we pick these two up as well as Mordin and Okeer, who dies but leaves behind Grunt; the perfect krogan warrior. TIM pings us and tells us that the human colony on Horizon will soon be under assault by the Collectors. We can request to notify the Council but TIM refuses until we've assessed the situation on the ground. There we discover the Collectors are using husks, like the geth did in the previous game, and we managed to drive off the Collector ship and save part of the colony. We meet Kaiden or Ashley from the previous game and they reveal they were on Horizon to investigate the abductions; believing that Cerberus was behind it. Why this is we aren't told in the game. TIM reveals he knew the Virmire Survivor was there and intentionally leaked this information to... the Collectors somehow or just generally? Whatever the case he used this to bait the Collectors into the attack so we could fight them there. It seems the Collectors are interested in Shepard or people connected to Shepard. Why? The game will never answer this and the big bad we just ran into contradicts this. He literally says that preserving Shepard's body is not important. So is Shepard important or not? If Shepard was important why wasn't Shepard abducted when the first Normandy was destroyed? Another question is why are the Collector's interested in Shepard or his former team and why does TIM need to send Shepard there to confirm this? What has really gained? What have we gained? What has been achieved? This doesn't stop more Collector attacks and doesn't help us later. Next we are told to recruit Tali'Zorah from the first game, who is a skilled engineer, Samara, an asari Justicar and powerful biotic, and Thane, an assassin. As we go about this TIM contacts us and tells us that a turian fleet ran into a Collector vessel and disabled it, though they were destroyed in the process. Boarding the vessel we realize it is the same ship we saw on Horizon and the same one that destroyed the Normandy SR1. Onboard we discover the Collectors are former Protheans the musical cue here and Shepard's reaction tell us this is supposed to be a shocking revelation. It falls flat however because it doesn't change anything. It is pointless. A failed twist. We attempt to data-mine it with EDI but this triggers a trap and the ship begins to power up to escape while we are right in the middle of it. It appears that TIM has betrayed us but after our miraculous escape he claims that he was confident in our abilities. We cannot really challenge him on this and so is train of thought is rather vague. We agree to keep working with him and he tells us about a derelict Reaper Cerberus found and an IFF device aboard it. We have determined from the datamine of the Collector Ship that they use an IFF when going through the Omega-4 Relay. We speculate that without it ships trying to use it are destroyed. We need this device but are cautioned to be careful because the team who recovered it have gone silent. We never ask why TIM didn't use this Reaper derelict to prove to the Council that Sovereign was no geth ship. Boarding the ship we find the crew have been turned into husks via' indoctrination. Even though the ship appeared to be dead down to the microscopic level, it appears its innate nature causes indoctrination. The IFF is still intact and along the way we are saved by a mysterious geth that we can then recruit or sell for cash. Time passes and we do stuff. Shepard at some point decides that while the IFF is integrated to the Normandy that the ground team should all board the shuttle and go somewhere. We do so and the Collectors somehow use the IFF to jump right to the Normandy's location and assault it. They board and carry away the crew. Why they don't just blow up the Normandy is not asked or questioned. From there we can do more stuff or go through the Omega-IV relay. Going through the relay we duel with some eye-looking Collector drone thingies and then duel with the Collector ship, destroying it. Whether due to bad luck or Shepard's incompetence the battle ends with us crashing on a massive space station that seems to be the Collector's base of operations. We determine that by dividing our team of commandos we can reach the station core and set it it to blow up. Whether the Normandy can fly again or not is never brought up. Leaving the ship behind we never wonder if the Collectors won't attack it again. Anyway, we reach the core of the station and discover a big robo-human terminator thing that is apparently a human Reaper. The Collectors build this by melting down humans. Somehow. Why? We don't know. What does it mean? We don't know. After destroying it we begin to set the station to blow but TIM interrupts and requests that we keep it intact. Most players tell him to sod off and blow it up and we escape in a dramatic fashion. We know the Reapers are still out there. We know we need to stop them. The game ends. Nothing new, that is actually relevant, has been learned about the Reapers. We still don't know how they are coming back or when. We have not gained some new or important insight into their nature or construction that could help us. Perhaps this would be possible if we had saved the Collector Base, but most people did not and that was a last minute decision anyway. Our only goal in the game was to stop the Collectors to preserve human life. Admirable, but how this helped us stop the Reapers was always rather vague. Surely it was necessary for someone to do this to, again, preserve human life, but what grand strategic importance this holds for our struggle against the Reapers is never offered. In fact, we carry out plenty of side missions that seem a lot MORE important, mostly for the benefit of characters who have no connection or interest in the Collectors. In contrast in ME1 the small team we had were all linked in some way to Saren. ME1's plost followed form one section to the next in a concise way but in ME2 we have large gaps of nothing between TIM dolling out some convenient information. This is a structural issue as well as a plot issue. A lot of this could be resolved with some simple dialog, but it isn't. I also haven't touched no the issue of Cerberus and TIM as a whole. In the first game we were told they were rogue Alliance Black Ops, but this is never mentioned in ME2. We witnessed them conducting immoral experiments in ME1 and they murdered an Alliance admiral who went after them. This isn't ever addressed by TIM in ME2 and Miranda only offers us up some quick explanations that we can't actually challenge her own. We may even have learned in ME1 that our squad on Akuze was destroyed at Cerberus' command and for the benefit of their experiments. Yet we can never bring this up with TIM or Miranda. It is never even mentioned, not even when Miranda and Jacob, Cerberus officers, grill us on our personal history. It just isn't there until some throwaway line in a later DLC. We also have the question of Cerberus' infamy. In ME1 it was an entire quest line just to determine that they even exist, much less who they are and we never find out what they want. In ME2 we are still told they are a shadowy group but everyone seems to recognize them on sight and everyone hates them. How can they be both so instantly recognizable and also mysterious? Why does everyone hate them? We understand why the quarians do, though they're still willing to work with them, and we may understand why the Alliance does. Everyone else though is a mystery. Why does the Council in particular hate them? Both Anderson and Hackett seem willing to tolerate or even encourage our working with them, so what gives? One piece of good writing, that will be contradicted in the next game, is the explanation we are given for how the Normandy SR2 was built. Though I do still find Joker's explanation for having joined quite weak. However this does touch on another issue; if Cerberus is small and secretive then how can they have these massive operations we find at Lazarus Station, the derelict Reaper, and in Project Overlord? If they are secretive, why is their logo everywhere, even on the goddamn glass windows? Another DLC will also reintroduce the Reaper plot, revealing that apparently they are mere MONTHS away from invading the galaxy. We can deduce that the Reapers have just flown here from dark space but they'll soon reach a particular mass relay that will let them quickly disperse throughout the galaxy to conduct their war of annihilation. We stop them, we wait for ME3. Once more, we are never given a concrete explanation for why TIM had Shepard brought back from the dead and Shepard never becomes important to the plot. He's the protagonist but there is no particular reasons he needs to be. He isn't central to anything and doesn't grow or change as a character or person. How did we manage to get to Freedom's Progress faster than anyone else? Why the Collectors so sloppy as to leave behind Veetor? This is much more contrived than Shepard accidentally using the beacon on Eden Prime. Where did the seeker swarm specimen that Mordin studies come from? All we got from Freedom's Progress was visual recordings. Considering the Normandy eventually, even without upgrades, shoots down the Collector Ship, why can't anybody stop the damn thing? Why not shoot it down at Horizon? Or when we find it derelict? I can think of explanations, but the plot doesn't offer them. Strangely, it seems the Council and Alliance aren't all that interested in the colony abductions. They blame Cerberus (why?) or pirates (how?). This in spite of Ilos having been around for two years to be explored and Shepard's success in the first game. Tens of thousands of people disappear without a trace and apparently the ruling bodies of the galaxy don't give a whit. Neither does anyone else. There aren't protests going on and colonist enlistment rates aren't plummeting. You'd think that since expanding colonization is the core to human power and influence that the Alliance would be EXTREMELY interested in human colonies going missing, even if they aren't within their legal jurisdiction. This strains suspension of disbelief. Most especially since we learn the Collectors have advanced tech that they often trade for; so surely the governments know that the Collectors are real. The Shadow Broker does, after all. He even knows about the Reapers. While not a plot hole, it should also be brought up that the technology that resurrected is never explained or mentioned again either. One would think this would be important to Cerberus and useful in expanding their wealth and influence, but no. Nor does Shepard ever offer any introspection on his death and resurrection, the two years he skipped over, and nobody ever asks, not even Ashley who is religious. We see glowing bits inside Shepard that make him look like the Terminator if renegade, and rather Saren like, but if this has any significance nobody ever brings it up. Shepard never even asks about it. A lot of people back in the day speculated that it was all done with Reaper tech. Understandable since it LOOKS like Reaper tech and would thus be a pretty shocking revelation that could have a huge impact on Shepard... but... no. Nothing. Another questionable bit of writing is how Liara's character is handled. She is a Reaper expert and at the end of ME1 she has access to an untouched Prothean world. She knows the truth about their extinction and thus it seems logical her talents would be put to use learning more. Instead we are told that after Shepard died she was contacted by Cerberus to steal his body from the Shadow Broker. How Shepard even had a body to steal is unexplained. It should be burnt to ash. Rather than devote her time to understanding and stopping the Reaper threat, Liara sets aside her university degree and research and decides to become an information broker to "get back" at the Shadow Broker who killed her double-crossing comrade. She is obsessed with this comrade and with Shepard, despite in the first game being able to rationalize away most of her grief over her mother's death. Even explaining that asari are rather good at dealing with grief and don't dwell on it most of the time because they are long lived in galaxy filled with friends, acquaintances, and lovers who don't live nearly so long. She never knew Shepard or this other comrade for very long, after all. Her character shift thus feels forced and contrived and suffers for it. Back to the Reapers and Arrival DLC. If the Reapers only ever needed to fly to galaxy then why did Sovereign go to all the trouble of trying to capture the Citadel in the first game? If it had just laid low for two and a half more years its entire Reaper armada would have been there to help it. It would not have been destroyed and the organic militaries never would have been able to use its remains to reverse engineer any new tech. It seems like a huge blunder. Why was this blunder made? Apparently the Alliance has been aware of the Reaper artifact in batarian space, that is conveniently near the important mass relay, for some time. They have a secret base there and everything. So why didn't Anderson or Hackett tell us about it? What IS that Reaper device? What does it do? Why is it there? How can the Reapers fly so far through dark space and when did they begin their journey? What are we going to do when they get here? How are we going to stop them? So, can you see the difference? ME1 doesn't raise all these questions about its plot or how things fit together. It doesn't contradict itself. There are some details glossed over for the sake of pacing, but they aren't important details. The plot stands on its own. It offers genuine twists that totally alter the tone and meaning of the narrative. This is one of the best explanations I've read that shows how lacking the ME2 plot really is... I fully agree and have argued the same thing multiple times. And sadly, exactly this game that ruined the franchise, is touted as the best one... No wonder everything went downhill with the franchise... Because obviously they are trying to do the same thing ME2 did, but failed miserably. Even Andromeda is structurally designed to be like ME2.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 5, 2020 16:47:15 GMT
Hmm... it's not a necro f you're just jumping back a couple of months in an otherwise active thread, is it?
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Post by tatann on Feb 5, 2020 17:57:02 GMT
Hmm... it's not a necro f you're just jumping back a couple of months in an otherwise active thread, is it? Nah, not on BSN, 2 months is nothing. Considering the activity in the Anthem sub, any post there would be a necro following your rule
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 17:59:47 GMT
Hmm... it's not a necro f you're just jumping back a couple of months in an otherwise active thread, is it? Nah, not on BSN, 2 months is nothing. Considering the activity in the Anthem sub, any post there would be a necro following your rule Besides, this one's bearly a month old.
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Post by Ascend on Feb 5, 2020 18:20:06 GMT
Hmm... it's not a necro f you're just jumping back a couple of months in an otherwise active thread, is it? After seeing the post above me, I decided to go back a few pages and read what lead to the discussion. I wouldn't consider it a necro, but hey, to each his own. Besides, BSN isn't that active lately. I am one of those that doesn't visit regularly anymore since there isn't much happening here... There is a possible Mass Effect remaster being announced during the first two weeks of March (I doubt it's a sequel), but apparently no one here really cares enough about the future of the franchise anymore to notice the blatantly obvious tweets, considering I haven't seen any sign of those tweets in these forums. This place needs all the posts it can get it seems. In any case, going back to the topic of the thread... If Mass Effect fails harder than Andromeda it's most likely because they are still attached to the arguably undeserving success of ME2 and trying to copy it, despite the market being completely different today.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 18:22:18 GMT
Hmm... it's not a necro f you're just jumping back a couple of months in an otherwise active thread, is it? After seeing the post above me, I decided to go back a few pages and read what lead to the discussion. I wouldn't consider it a necro, but hey, to each his own. Besides, BSN isn't that active lately. I am one of those that doesn't visit regularly anymore since there isn't much happening here... There is a possible Mass Effect remaster being announced during the first two weeks of March (I doubt it's a sequel), but apparently no one here really cares enough about the future of the franchise anymore to notice the blatantly obvious tweets, considering I haven't seen any sign of those tweets in these forums. This place needs all the posts it can get it seems. In any case, going back to the topic of the thread... If Mass Effect fails harder than Andromeda it's most likely because they are still attached to the arguably undeserving success of ME2 and trying to copy it, despite the market being completely different today. Uh? What tweets?
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Post by Ascend on Feb 5, 2020 19:43:22 GMT
After seeing the post above me, I decided to go back a few pages and read what lead to the discussion. I wouldn't consider it a necro, but hey, to each his own. Besides, BSN isn't that active lately. I am one of those that doesn't visit regularly anymore since there isn't much happening here... There is a possible Mass Effect remaster being announced during the first two weeks of March (I doubt it's a sequel), but apparently no one here really cares enough about the future of the franchise anymore to notice the blatantly obvious tweets, considering I haven't seen any sign of those tweets in these forums. This place needs all the posts it can get it seems. In any case, going back to the topic of the thread... If Mass Effect fails harder than Andromeda it's most likely because they are still attached to the arguably undeserving success of ME2 and trying to copy it, despite the market being completely different today. Uh? What tweets? Here are two examples that when combined, is telling us something;
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Post by Son of Dorn on Feb 5, 2020 19:51:52 GMT
Here are two examples that when combined, is telling us something; Sounds more like a small joke they are making. Edit: Fucking auto correct!
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