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Post by redeem on Jun 17, 2020 23:12:52 GMT
The next Mass Effect (if it ever comes out) will fail harder because Bioware has been getting worse. ME3's ending started it (and no matter how much you defend it, it is objectively bad) and it has spiralled in to a laughable product in Andromeda (the animations are a meme but that's a small facet in a game that has a bland story, riddled with socio-political garbage and boring characters) and an even more laughably implemented product in Anthem. I think it actually started with ME2, where the story and setting took a backseat to shooting mechanics (the game tried WAY to hard to be Gears of War) and the entire ME1 storyline of an ancient threat returning to the galaxy was pretty much jettisoned in favor of gunning down random mercs. Sure the characters were compelling, but 1) there were too many of them, ironic given how most of them were shelved for ME3 and 2) interaction between these characters was virtually nonexistant. Even though ME2 is by far my favourite in the series, I am not adverse to speaking ill of it. If anything, ME2 is the reason why ME3 became so bad in comparison. ME1 established a threat. ME2 decided to be one long side story that did absolutely nothing to stop the series main villain and had next to no effect on the outcome in the trilogy's conclusion. I will disagree with the shooting mechanics part. It was definitely needed when comparing it to the clunky system of ME1. The strength of the game was character development. I agree there should have been more character interaction, but the development of most of them (see Legion vs Tali, Jack vs Miranda) were exercises in development dynamics that were like mini-stories being told throughout the game's story and continuously progressed as you learned more about the characters and got to their loyalty missions.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 0:09:53 GMT
ME2 is the reason why ME3 became so bad in comparison I've had this same conversation before; nothing ME2 could have done, would have saved ME3.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2020 1:14:06 GMT
ME2 is the reason why ME3 became so bad in comparison I've had this same conversation before; nothing ME2 could have done, would have saved ME3. While it's true that some of the weirder creative decisions could have gone one way or the other independent of ME2, the previous game does leave the last holding the bag with how to go forward with the actual reaper plot. ME2 meanders quite a bit in its midsection, with very few of its subplots having anything to do with the Collectors or Reapers. To add to that, the disposable roster made it difficult to really integrate a lot of them properly into the story. I'm surprised ME3 managed to do as much as it did with all these surviving companions, but they felt spread thin thanks to all the variables at work juggling these alternate paths. Garrus and Tali managed to make it out largely unscathed thanks to their having exclusive reserved seats if they survived with no substitutes and a simple absence of alternate content. The Collector Base decision, I feel, was a huge mistake. I feel it should have just been one way or the other, allowing it to be more of a key point in the trilogy, but it made absolutely no difference.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 5:29:53 GMT
the previous game does leave the last holding the bag with how to go forward with the actual reaper plot By necessity. If you take that out of ME3 and deal with it in ME2, you are either left without a game, or, at best, you skipped Mars. the disposable roster made it difficult to really integrate a lot of them properly into the story By Bioware's own choice. It's not difficult to integrate an established squad member and just not have them show up, if they are dead. It's locked content. Content you might miss entirely. It's a real "your choices matter" consequence and what people expected Bioware to do. Instead, they chose to do nothing. I don't blame them, with 18 months of development, but as I've said before, there is no award for "best game made in 18 months". Bioware got shit for it. The Collector Base decision, I feel, was a huge mistake. I feel it should have just been one way or the other, allowing it to be more of a key point in the trilogy, but it made absolutely no difference. Again, by Bioware's own devise.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2020 6:00:37 GMT
the previous game does leave the last holding the bag with how to go forward with the actual reaper plot By necessity. If you take that out of ME3 and deal with it in ME2, you are either left without a game, or, at best, you skipped Mars. the disposable roster made it difficult to really integrate a lot of them properly into the story By Bioware's own choice. It's not difficult to integrate an established squad member and just not have them show up, if they are dead. It's locked content. Content you might miss entirely. It's a real "your choices matter" consequence and what people expected Bioware to do. Instead, they chose to do nothing. I don't blame them, with 18 months of development, but as I've said before, there is no award for "best game made in 18 months". Bioware got shit for it. The Collector Base decision, I feel, was a huge mistake. I feel it should have just been one way or the other, allowing it to be more of a key point in the trilogy, but it made absolutely no difference. Again, by Bioware's own devise. No one's arguing that BioWare was somehow strong-armed by someone to do these things; I'm simply suggesting that these things make the trilogy feel overly clumsy, as if there was no clear vision for where to take the trilogy in general.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 6:05:19 GMT
No one's arguing that BioWare was somehow strong-armed by someone to do these things; I'm simply suggesting that these things make the trilogy feel overly clumsy, as if there was no clear vision for where to take the trilogy in general While that much is clear, at least ME2 is nearly universally praised. It's a good installment. And what made a whole lot of people fall in love with ME, even if it isn't your favourite title in the trilogy. As such, I can only take in what each game achieves as a standalone. And ME3 achieved a lot of things, none of which were particularly good.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2020 7:14:55 GMT
No one's arguing that BioWare was somehow strong-armed by someone to do these things; I'm simply suggesting that these things make the trilogy feel overly clumsy, as if there was no clear vision for where to take the trilogy in general While that much is clear, at least ME2 is nearly universally praised. It's a good installment. And what made a whole lot of people fall in love with ME, even if it isn't your favourite title in the trilogy. As such, I can only take in what each game achieves as a standalone. And ME3 achieved a lot of things, none of which were particularly good. Sure it's universally praised, and I'd be one of those people who also loves the game and has played it numerous times. None of that changes glaring faults.
Where Mass Effect 2's greatest strength lies is in its initial experience. It's fast and energetic with a very entertaining cast of characters. Guns are punchier and abilities are flashier so battles can feel more frenetic and exciting. In a looser sense, the game functions similarly to JJ Abrams' method of filmmaking. It uses a mix of faster pacing in its set pieces and mission structure, and has Big Things Happen that are framed in such a way that encourages you to put as little thought as possible as to things actually happen. Case in point: the Collector invasion of the Normandy. The reason for this scene happening is probably one of the stupidest parts of the entire game, I'd say one of the stupidest in the trilogy. And people fucking loved it. People don't remember (or perhaps just don't know) the fact that logic got bent over the table for its "medicine"; people remember it for that amusing Joker dialogue with EDI. And that's where ME2 truly achieves: sufficiently masking the dumb stuff with quality character dynamics.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 7:50:17 GMT
I'd say one of the stupidest in the trilogy Hardly. I'm not going to argue that it's not stupid. It is. But the trilogy is full of them. More so in ME3. And there are far dumber scenes by a much larger margin. Especially the endings. Should it get a free pass? Hardly. I even noticed it the moment it happened. Like, if I can bring the entire team in a shuttle, why don't I just charge every mission with me entire 12 man team? But overall, it is inconsequential, as it can even serve as an example why you shouldn't take your entire team on the shuttle: because someone can board the ship and fuck the entire crew up, in their absence. In which case, it all looks like a bad call Miranda made. It is Miranda that tells you that you can board the entire team on the shuttle, right? Or was it EDI?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2020 11:49:11 GMT
I'd say one of the stupidest in the trilogy Hardly. I'm not going to argue that it's not stupid. It is. But the trilogy is full of them. More so in ME3. And there are far dumber scenes by a much larger margin. Especially the endings. Should it get a free pass? Hardly. I even noticed it the moment it happened. Like, if I can bring the entire team in a shuttle, why don't I just charge every mission with me entire 12 man team? But overall, it is inconsequential, as it can even serve as an example why you shouldn't take your entire team on the shuttle: because someone can board the ship and fuck the entire crew up, in their absence. In which case, it all looks like a bad call Miranda made. It is Miranda that tells you that you can board the entire team on the shuttle, right? Or was it EDI? Except the idea is not really having a 12 person team. Miranda specifically states on the comms that the entire team would meet on the shuttle, after which whenever they reach their destination to...wherever, Shep would choose the 2 from that group as normal. It doesn't seem so much like a bad call, but a very inelegant ass-pull. The IFF set piece doesn't function when any companions are left aboard, but there's no sensible reason to pull them all off the ship at once either. It's kind of the game's MO, inserting these big impactful events even if there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it. ME2: Arrival is probably one of the most egregious offenders, with a plot that's kind of all over the place, but we needed a reason to shoot things before the big relay explosion. Make no mistake, I have my share of hefty criticisms of the rest of the games, ME3 in particular, but I like picking apart ME2 largely because it's treated as though it's perfection, when that couldn't be further from reality.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 12:46:48 GMT
Except the idea is not really having a 12 person team True. But there's no reason why you couldn't. I mean, everyone's there. I assumed, in ME1, that the in game reason for the 3 man teams was the Mako. It could only carry 3 people. Same for the shuttle in ME2. If I can fit everyone into the shuttle, why not employ them all for every mission? Squad control mechanics and balance, obviously, but it breaks immersion. It doesn't seem so much like a bad call, but a very inelegant ass-pull Yes, it does. Fortunately, for itself, the Collectors boarding the ship make a very good case for not repeating it. Like, what happens if a pirate ship just FTLs out of nowhere, next to the Normandy and boards it, with nobody on board to put up a strong fight? Still stupid to pull in the first place, but it immediately undoes itself, so the damage done is self-contained and simultaneously rectified. Which is why I don't give it as much flak. I like picking apart ME2 largely because it's treated as though it's perfection, when that couldn't be further from reality. Anyone who claims perfection for any game, *cough*LastOfUs2*cough*, is either shilling or an idiot. ME2 just manages to be smart and good enough to undo its own stupid shit, in the same game. Mostly. Like, it still does some damage, with the thermal clips, the Lazarus Project, Cerberus, but I think these worked more the stuff they broke. And I can be wrong on that and I won't dispute anyone claiming otherwise.
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Post by natetrace on Jun 18, 2020 14:51:41 GMT
People can pick apart the Mass Effect games all they want, and I know they have a flaw here or there, but name me one other game company who makes sci fi (or fantasy) games where you create your character, are in third person, has a cover system, has some romance with squadmates, has organized squadmates (easy to find/part of story. Fallout kinda had this but I've always found those games more disorganized). Games which allow you to make your own choices, even if it your choice is just destroy, control or synthesis.
Cyberpunk almost had it but then they made it first person and I am not sure how companions work. I'll still buy it but it'll probably be another almost Mass Effect but not quite game.
Anyway goofy things like no squadmates needing proper armor in space after ME1 aside, where else I ask you can I find games like ME or DA? Nowhere. Some come close. Close is all.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 18, 2020 15:31:22 GMT
People can pick apart the Mass Effect games all they want, and I know they have a flaw here or there, but name me one other game company who makes sci fi (or fantasy) games where you create your character, are in third person, has a cover system, has some romance with squadmates, has organized squadmates (easy to find/part of story. Fallout kinda had this but I've always found those games more disorganized). Games which allow you to make your own choices, even if it your choice is just destroy, control or synthesis. Cyberpunk almost had it but then they made it first person and I am not sure how companions work. I'll still buy it but it'll probably be another almost Mass Effect but not quite game. Anyway goofy things like no squadmates needing proper armor in space after ME1 aside, where else I ask you can I find games like ME or DA? Nowhere. Some come close. Close is all. Yes, it's rather telling that the ambition of the Mass Effect trilogy is something that had never been attempted before, and likely will never be attempted again. In the end the choice-consequence aspect of the trilogy didn't fulfil our wildest imaginations but Bioware gave it a damn good go. They'll always have my respect for that. Apart from anything else, whenever I see talks of remaking the trilogy I always imagine Bioware staff reading it and going 'nah fuck that - we aren't going through all that again'.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 18, 2020 20:43:45 GMT
Bioware gave it a damn good go I don't agree. They'll always have my respect for that. Nah. Bioware didn't respect me, so I can't show them respect back.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 18, 2020 21:05:20 GMT
Good for you.
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Post by Ascend on Jun 22, 2020 0:56:39 GMT
Make no mistake, I have my share of hefty criticisms of the rest of the games, ME3 in particular, but I like picking apart ME2 largely because it's treated as though it's perfection, when that couldn't be further from reality. That, I can wholeheartedly support. ME2 has sort of become the golden standard for BioWare, but that is a mistake. It can be for the characters, its ending, and not much else. Banter? ME3 did it better. Plot? ME1 definitely did it better, and arguably so did ME3. Gameplay? ME3 and MEA did it better. Lore? ME1 did it better Conversations? ME1 did it better And so on and so on. I am particularly hard on ME2 because of it. Not only did I find it inferior to ME1 on the things that actually mattered to me, it's not only praised for the good, it's also praised for what it is absolutely mediocre at. And that infuriates me to no end, because I know it will kill the franchise, and that is exactly what is happening. And I agree with the sentiment that the downfall of BioWare started with ME2. They sacrificed too much of the good stuff to enable good gameplay. Dragon Age Origins was also a master piece, and Dragon Age 2 was not up to par. Dragon age 2 is technically exactly them same thing to Origins that ME2 is to ME1, but for some reason, ME2 gets praised for it instead.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 22, 2020 8:13:56 GMT
Make no mistake, I have my share of hefty criticisms of the rest of the games, ME3 in particular, but I like picking apart ME2 largely because it's treated as though it's perfection, when that couldn't be further from reality. That, I can wholeheartedly support. ME2 has sort of become the golden standard for BioWare, but that is a mistake. It can be for the characters, its ending, and not much else. Banter? ME3 did it better. Plot? ME1 definitely did it better, and arguably so did ME3. Gameplay? ME3 and MEA did it better. Lore? ME1 did it better Conversations? ME1 did it better And so on and so on. I am particularly hard on ME2 because of it. Not only did I find it inferior to ME1 on the things that actually mattered to me, it's not only praised for the good, it's also praised for what it is absolutely mediocre at. And that infuriates me to no end, because I know it will kill the franchise, and that is exactly what is happening. And I agree with the sentiment that the downfall of BioWare started with ME2. They sacrificed too much of the good stuff to enable good gameplay. Dragon Age Origins was also a master piece, and Dragon Age 2 was not up to par. Dragon age 2 is technically exactly them same thing to Origins that ME2 is to ME1, but for some reason, ME2 gets praised for it instead. I will say this for DA2, it at least didn’t have this dialogue check system that felt totally arbitrary. Mass Effect 3’s reputation system was much better. At least it actually had a clear reward for actively participating at each key point for a character, rather than simply locking you out because you spread renegade and paragon lines too evenly, which got even more annoying when that could end up forcing you to lose a companion even after jumping through all their hoops.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 22, 2020 11:59:23 GMT
Dragon age 2 is technically exactly them same thing to Origins that ME2 is to ME1, but for some reason, ME2 gets praised for it instead. Arguably, somewhere, something is off here, then. Perhaps something that you don't necessarily see.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 22, 2020 13:02:59 GMT
And that's where ME2 truly achieves: sufficiently masking the dumb stuff with quality character dynamics.
I wouldn't say anything in ME2 is particularly "dumb", though I do understand your point. I think something people often don't see in ME3 is how it has an actual plot with gigantic stakes, perhaps even bigger than the material it took inspiration from (Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, Star Wars). Civilization, not just the human type, might be completely eliminated, and one of the beauties of the game is that it gives it to you in numbers (millions dead on Earth, millions dead on Palaven, millions on the colony worlds). That scale of death and devastation is almost never shown in any other medium, and here Bioware gave zero fucks because the story was served by the degree of loss you find at every point of the story. More than ME1 and ME2, ME3 is about war. Its another unsung merit that ME3 develops its ideas better than its predecessors: the genophage was used on a civilization that might've, might've not, developed naturally towards a more ordered society, the geth will fight for their survival even if it costs them their place in an organic galaxy, the council might not be the best organization to wage war, transhumanism might be an inevitable fate of humankind. These are all concepts and ideas that seem a little hard to find in ME2, specially given how the game is more focused on the characters, which is probably the only point that matters in the differences between ME2 and ME3: Most people just like the character stories and thus like the game better, they don't have a larger interest in the themes or the ideas presented, which is not really a bad thing but whenever someone says ME2 is better than ME3 it just sounds to me like they're talking about their favorite LI's or their favorite loyalty missions.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 22, 2020 13:56:04 GMT
I think it actually started with ME2, where the story and setting took a backseat to shooting mechanics (the game tried WAY to hard to be Gears of War) and the entire ME1 storyline of an ancient threat returning to the galaxy was pretty much jettisoned in favor of gunning down random mercs. As much as I would have liked Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers, I would say stopping the abductions of the colonists is more important. Why? Shepard learns the collectors are committing these abductions. They need to be stopped. If not, and Shepard instead focuses on dealing with the reapers, it would make fighting the reapers, when they show up, that much harder having to deal with the collectors and reapers at the same time. I agree. A majority of my playthroughs is with 8 squadmates. Don't recall the last time I recruited all twelve. Here's a thread I created asking which 4 you would remove from the roster and another thread asking which 3 you would have removed. Had Bioware been given more time to develop the game they originally wanted, it's possible the ME2 characters may have played a bigger role. According to @straycat, a poster who hasn't posted in a long time, said that Thane would have a bigger role during the coup mission and Kasumi would have played a role in that mission as well. The other is there was to be a choice between saving A/K or t'soni. One thing that bothered me is the loyalty missions. Why are they one of the deciding factors for a character to live or die? To me that's pathetic if a squadmate needs Shepard to hold their hand to get something done for them to be focused. Would you want that squadmate on your team? For me, no because that can lead to bad things, and sure enough, the game proves bad things happen. If anything I would have it where if a loyalty mission isn't completed, it would effect the relationship between that character and Shepard. When meeting that character in ME3, he/she has a different tone of voice towards Shepard. What makes it even worse, 4 of those squadmates die in ME3 no matter what because their loyalty mission wasn't completed.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 22, 2020 19:23:30 GMT
I think it actually started with ME2, where the story and setting took a backseat to shooting mechanics (the game tried WAY to hard to be Gears of War) and the entire ME1 storyline of an ancient threat returning to the galaxy was pretty much jettisoned in favor of gunning down random mercs. As much as I would have liked Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers, I would say stopping the abductions of the colonists is more important. Why? Shepard learns the collectors are committing these abductions. They need to be stopped. If not, and Shepard instead focuses on dealing with the reapers, it would make fighting the reapers, when they show up, that much harder having to deal with the collectors and reapers at the same time. Thing is, the Collectors grabbing colonies was a stupid plot anyway. Why are they tipping their hand so early, before the Reapers arrive? Unless they needed the human Reaper for some reason BEFORE Harbinger and the others arrive, they were taking a needless risk. They would have been better off tossing that whole storyline and have Shepard focus more on investigating the Reapers themselves (with Cerberus backing, I guess)
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Post by themikefest on Jun 22, 2020 19:44:03 GMT
As much as I would have liked Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers, I would say stopping the abductions of the colonists is more important. Why? Shepard learns the collectors are committing these abductions. They need to be stopped. If not, and Shepard instead focuses on dealing with the reapers, it would make fighting the reapers, when they show up, that much harder having to deal with the collectors and reapers at the same time. Thing is, the Collectors grabbing colonies was a stupid plot anyway. Why are they tipping their hand so early, before the Reapers arrive? Unless they needed the human Reaper for some reason BEFORE Harbinger and the others arrive, they were taking a needless risk. They would have been better off tossing that whole storyline and have Shepard focus more on investigating the Reapers themselves (with Cerberus backing, I guess) I say the collectors could still be part of the game. Have them be a long side mission with the main mission being Shepard preparing to travel to darkspace. Of course for that to happen, I would make a few changes in ME1. I would not have Shepard die at the beginning of ME2. She/he ends up with bumps and bruises. For the next couple of years, Shepard uses a shuttle to travel around the galaxy looking for a way to deal with the reapers. One day, while on the Citadel, he/she sees Lawson who mentions colonists are being taken by an unknown enemy. Shepard travels with her to freedom's Progress. After that, confronts Udina who admits nothing is being done. Shepard is upset, and agrees to help Cerberus. The Alliance doesn't like that, but agree something has to be done. After getting the IFF, it's given to Anderson, who is in charge of a fleet. At the same time, Shepard is introduced to Vega. While they go through the Omega 4 relay, Shepard heads to darkspace to find answers about dealing with the reapers.
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Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
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May 10, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
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highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 1:01:18 GMT
Thing is, the Collectors grabbing colonies was a stupid plot anyway. Why are they tipping their hand so early, before the Reapers arrive? Unless they needed the human Reaper for some reason BEFORE Harbinger and the others arrive, they were taking a needless risk. They would have been better off tossing that whole storyline and have Shepard focus more on investigating the Reapers themselves (with Cerberus backing, I guess) That's a bit harsh. I think we all clearly saw that the Alliance had no jurisdiction in the Terminus Systems and thus the collectors felt confident in how they acted with the human colonies. If it hadn't been for Cerberus, the reapers would've been succesful. Investigating the reapers would've been interesting, depending on your proposal, but after Mass Effect 1 you needed something with almost equal amount of urgency. I myself thought human colonies being abducted, a subverted sci-fi trope almost no one caught, was pretty on point.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 23, 2020 11:24:55 GMT
Thing is, the Collectors grabbing colonies was a stupid plot anyway. Why are they tipping their hand so early, before the Reapers arrive? Unless they needed the human Reaper for some reason BEFORE Harbinger and the others arrive, they were taking a needless risk. They would have been better off tossing that whole storyline and have Shepard focus more on investigating the Reapers themselves (with Cerberus backing, I guess) That's a bit harsh. I think we all clearly saw that the Alliance had no jurisdiction in the Terminus Systems and thus the collectors felt confident in how they acted with the human colonies. If it hadn't been for Cerberus, the reapers would've been succesful. Investigating the reapers would've been interesting, depending on your proposal, but after Mass Effect 1 you needed something with almost equal amount of urgency. I myself thought human colonies being abducted, a subverted sci-fi trope almost no one caught, was pretty on point. The Alliance’s jurisdiction shouldn’t really much matter as far as the Reapers or Collectors are concerned. Any part of galactic civilization becoming too aware of their presence only increases risk of endangering their operation. The fact that Cerberus became aware of their operations is that risk realized. Their confidence isn’t really the best excuse either, because the thing that undermines all of this in the end is the fact that they most certainly would be aware that the Reapers are returning to the galaxy in just a few short years after the demise of Sovereign. They would probably have served the reapers better lying in wait and then working alongside them to round up and subjugate the masses. As a result, the main plot itself ends up being severely half-baked, and makes the game meander a bit too much. A major symptom of this is the detachment of the vast majority of the stories in the game to the Collector plot. There’s seldom (if any) a character or side plot affected that is somehow connected to them. In Dragon Age: Origins, there’s lot of different things we can do, not all of which are totally involving the Blight, but the Blight is often a catalyst for a lot of what’s going on around our protagonist.
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Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Jun 22, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
724
Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
522
May 10, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
May 2020
highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on Jun 23, 2020 13:54:39 GMT
The Alliance’s jurisdiction shouldn’t really much matter as far as the Reapers or Collectors are concerned. Any part of galactic civilization becoming too aware of their presence only increases risk of endangering their operation. The fact that Cerberus became aware of their operations is that risk realized. Their confidence isn’t really the best excuse either, because the thing that undermines all of this in the end is the fact that they most certainly would be aware that the Reapers are returning to the galaxy in just a few short years after the demise of Sovereign. They would probably have served the reapers better lying in wait and then working alongside them to round up and subjugate the masses. As a result, the main plot itself ends up being severely half-baked, and makes the game meander a bit too much. A major symptom of this is the detachment of the vast majority of the stories in the game to the Collector plot. There’s seldom (if any) a character or side plot affected that is somehow connected to them. In Dragon Age: Origins, there’s lot of different things we can do, not all of which are totally involving the Blight, but the Blight is often a catalyst for a lot of what’s going on around our protagonist. I actually do find it problematic that in a short span (what was it, two years?) the reapers arrived in the galaxy by just... flying towards it . What was the point of Arrival and Sovereign and the Human Reaper even ? As you say, they could've just lied in wait. That was a point I never liked about the story. Then again, I dissagree about your argument with the collectors and the reapers because it assumes a bit that they are perfect villains that never take risks. Given what we knew at the time, that the reapers had no way whatsoever of entering the milky way without assistance, it was a pretty reasonable risk to abduct people in a region where the main government (the council) had no power to act. They might've known beforehand that Cerberus could oppose them but they just probably said "fuck it, if we don't make the human reaper now then we'll never make it. We gotta go with it now". Of course, this all seemed pointless because the reapers just fucking......... flew in. To clarify, I defend the abduction bit because of two reasons: 1) It's play on the sci-fi trope that aliens come to abduct people, which is exactly what the collectors do. Bioware though, plays on the trope by presenting the actual consequences of people who are kidnapped by aliens and never come back 2) It adds incredible urgency to the plot; it's not about saving the galaxy or civilization, it's about saving humble working people that are being killed and kidnapped for maker knows what purpose. I could've done with another plot, I admit... but perhaps not an investigation, at least not one that didn't had the level of urgency this one had: Shepard had to team up with one of the worst terrorist organizations in the galaxy because it was the only way they could save the collectors.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,081 Likes: 49,910
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
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Iakus
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August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 24, 2020 23:57:01 GMT
Thing is, the Collectors grabbing colonies was a stupid plot anyway. Why are they tipping their hand so early, before the Reapers arrive? Unless they needed the human Reaper for some reason BEFORE Harbinger and the others arrive, they were taking a needless risk. They would have been better off tossing that whole storyline and have Shepard focus more on investigating the Reapers themselves (with Cerberus backing, I guess) That's a bit harsh. I think we all clearly saw that the Alliance had no jurisdiction in the Terminus Systems and thus the collectors felt confident in how they acted with the human colonies. If it hadn't been for Cerberus, the reapers would've been succesful. Investigating the reapers would've been interesting, depending on your proposal, but after Mass Effect 1 you needed something with almost equal amount of urgency. I myself thought human colonies being abducted, a subverted sci-fi trope almost no one caught, was pretty on point. Meh, The Collectors are kind of an *sspull. Not that the Reapers shouldn't have servants of some kind in the MW. But they were so powerful that I'm left to wonder why Saren needed Heretic Geth Tank-Bred Krogan and indoctrinated Asari Huntresses in ME1 when a few Collectors and their swarms could have crippled the Citadel. The kidnapping felt really pointless and artificial. Why do the Reapers risk revealing such a potent hidden weapon before they are ready to properly harvest the galaxy? They couldn't wait on building the human Reaper for three years? These things are immortal, shouldn't they take the long view? Investigating the Reapers could have led to, or perhaps even be inspired by the discovery of something like the Alpha Relay, or some other backup plan to reach the Milky Way more quickly. Instead of abducted colonies, how about indoctrinated colonies aiding the Reapers in their return? Thus ME2 could have been about thwarting the Reapers again, but this time with a focus on studying the Reapers, learning their powers and more importantly, their limitations. But since it's set largely outside of Citadel and Alliance control, Shepard would have to team up with less savory forces. Like Cerberus. COuld have done away with that lame "cure for death" intro as well.
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