inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 10:26:51 GMT
Lol, fair enough. I have nothing against the game, I think it will end up tons better than Fallout 76, I think there's a base gameplay there that is incredibly fun and can be built on, I'm going to be playing it next year. I think choice and consequence is something that nobody should expect in an MMO. I think a rough start is not something as important to an MMO. That being said I'm getting very tired of being lied to. When I play Anthem I don't expect there to be choices and consequences involved in any meaningful way, that's just something we expect to give up in an MMO game. I know a delay when I see it, it isn't a product re... whatever EA called it. Because when people start lying to you, it just means I can't trust them anymore. EA Gamechanger are a bunch of people I don't trust anymore, for example. And when people don't trust anything anyone says, that's when cynicism starts running rampant, not because we LIKE being cynical, but that's just what happens when people are lied to for more than a decade by marketers. So enjoy your game, I hope it does well. Just don't try and sell it's choice and consequence system to me. I have far too much cynicism for that to work. I have enjoyed your discussion with linksocarina about plot, narrative and story but the original question/point was that there was NO (as in zero, nothing etc) choice and consequence mechanics in the game. Which is clearly misinformation. Whether or not you or I like them isn't really relevant. Someone likes them, someone else doesn't. Whether or not you or I find them meaningful is equally moot. Ultimately no choice in a game has ever been meaningful. It's merely pixels. There are in game choices to make, they have in game consequences. Links knows his stuff [jk]just not so much about this [/jk]
I'm going to link back to the original post because much of this talk has been about Bioware when the biggest offenders aren't even Bioware (Stop talking, Peter Molyneux! Just stop talking!) Ignore the last 30 seconds of the following video. The youtuber clearly got impressed with his ability to create metaphors and it's just drivel.
|
|
inherit
265
0
Apr 26, 2024 22:14:28 GMT
11,980
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,910
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
|
Post by Pounce de León on Mar 8, 2019 10:27:09 GMT
Lol, fair enough. I have nothing against the game, I think it will end up tons better than Fallout 76, I think there's a base gameplay there that is incredibly fun and can be built on, I'm going to be playing it next year. I think choice and consequence is something that nobody should expect in an MMO. I think a rough start is not something as important to an MMO. That being said I'm getting very tired of being lied to. When I play Anthem I don't expect there to be choices and consequences involved in any meaningful way, that's just something we expect to give up in an MMO game. I know a delay when I see it, it isn't a product re... whatever EA called it. Because when people start lying to you, it just means I can't trust them anymore. EA Gamechanger are a bunch of people I don't trust anymore, for example. And when people don't trust anything anyone says, that's when cynicism starts running rampant, not because we LIKE being cynical, but that's just what happens when people are lied to for more than a decade by marketers. So enjoy your game, I hope it does well. Just don't try and sell it's choice and consequence system to me. I have far too much cynicism for that to work. I have enjoyed your discussion with linksocarina about plot, narrative and story but the original question/point was that there was NO (as in zero, nothing etc) choice and consequence mechanics in the game. Which is clearly misinformation. Whether or not you or I like them isn't really relevant. Someone likes them, someone else doesn't. Whether or not you or I find them meaningful is equally moot. Ultimately no choice in a game has ever been meaningful. It's merely pixels. There are in game choices to make, they have in game consequences. The original question was restart a character to replay story missions. I said I wouldn't do that, you fanboyed hard about it and then it rather looked it wouldn't become a rather good discussion about story structure and that.
---
About "Choice" - I have heard "branching story", which - I feel - is not the same as "choice" but similar. Are branching story and "choice" replacable by each other? They do seem to suggest different outcomes.
PS: Particularly enjoyed the part about narrative. We all know it's only smoke and mirrors. I guess many get a bit upset when the alternative narration turns out to have largely the same outcome. For the trilogy that is quickly a matter of maths how much branching you can allow and sustain because eventually you'd have quite the number of possible "world states". And they can grow exponentially with each branching.
|
|
inherit
ღ Grumpy Old Man
1046
0
Feb 12, 2024 15:48:21 GMT
15,499
Space Cowboy
They call me a Space Cowboy
4,937
Aug 17, 2016 20:09:17 GMT
August 2016
spacecowboy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
|
Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 8, 2019 10:39:18 GMT
This thread is like a Fallout skill book. I think I've gotten better at mental gymnastics (6). Everyone can check for themselves how much we've been, erm, "marketed to" before release by simply checking the Everything we know about Anthem thread. Unlockable Freelancer skills? Fast travel? Changing your Javelin on a mobile strider? Item set bonuses? At least during the demo I saw nothing of that. There's probably more. Might want to color-code those that are no longer true. Yes yes, it's pre-release hot air hype, it's to be expected that some of the announced features are going to be missing. It's to be expected that there will be a massive graphical downgrade from trailer to finished game, even if it stated that it was captured in-game in real time. That's just words, we all know that. But... All the promises (explicit and implied) about Anthem's future content are of course going to be true, hell, it's probably going to be even better than BioWare said! Why are people so eager to forget how much of the hype actually turned out to be true and refuse to apply that knowledge to promises of future content and updates? Lol, I just looked. That thread is a bit off now. I chuckled at their claim that every person across the world will see the same weather conditions you will. I know this isn’t what they meant, but yeah. Same as every mmo ever. So unique!
|
|
correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
inherit
Dr Obfuscate
807
0
Nov 10, 2023 13:59:26 GMT
5,270
correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,830
August 2016
correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
|
Post by correctamundo on Mar 8, 2019 12:26:15 GMT
I have enjoyed your discussion with linksocarina about plot, narrative and story but the original question/point was that there was NO (as in zero, nothing etc) choice and consequence mechanics in the game. Which is clearly misinformation. Whether or not you or I like them isn't really relevant. Someone likes them, someone else doesn't. Whether or not you or I find them meaningful is equally moot. Ultimately no choice in a game has ever been meaningful. It's merely pixels. There are in game choices to make, they have in game consequences. The original question was restart a character to replay story missions. I said I wouldn't do that, you fanboyed hard about it and then it rather looked it wouldn't become a rather good discussion about story structure and that.
---
About "Choice" - I have heard "branching story", which - I feel - is not the same as "choice" but similar. Are branching story and "choice" replacable by each other? They do seem to suggest different outcomes.
PS: Particularly enjoyed the part about narrative. We all know it's only smoke and mirrors. I guess many get a bit upset when the alternative narration turns out to have largely the same outcome. For the trilogy that is quickly a matter of maths how much branching you can allow and sustain because eventually you'd have quite the number of possible "world states". And they can grow exponentially with each branching.
Well, you may have said that you wouldn't want to replay the story. Fine. But you also continued with unsubstantiated claims that it isn't possible to play your character differently in Anthem when it very clearly is possible.
|
|
inherit
Ohm's Law Compels You
207
0
19,211
Qui-Gon GlenN7
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
5,762
August 2016
quigonglenn
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
qui_gon_glenn
2108
|
Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 8, 2019 12:35:29 GMT
Hahahahahahahaha.
Sorry Heimdall, as much as I have liked your content in the past, the OP, how it was framed, the perspective...
This is shillery. Unintentional maybe, but remains what it is.
We believe we were lied to because we were actually lied to. There is nothing to doubt, nothing to feel unsure of.
That you feel you weren't lied to, in face of all of the evidence all over this forum and in the media for years running - I don't believe you. You're smarter than that.
|
|
inherit
265
0
Apr 26, 2024 22:14:28 GMT
11,980
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,910
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
|
Post by Pounce de León on Mar 8, 2019 13:16:42 GMT
The original question was restart a character to replay story missions. I said I wouldn't do that, you fanboyed hard about it and then it rather looked it wouldn't become a rather good discussion about story structure and that.
---
About "Choice" - I have heard "branching story", which - I feel - is not the same as "choice" but similar. Are branching story and "choice" replacable by each other? They do seem to suggest different outcomes.
PS: Particularly enjoyed the part about narrative. We all know it's only smoke and mirrors. I guess many get a bit upset when the alternative narration turns out to have largely the same outcome. For the trilogy that is quickly a matter of maths how much branching you can allow and sustain because eventually you'd have quite the number of possible "world states". And they can grow exponentially with each branching.
Well, you may have said that you wouldn't want to replay the story. Fine. But you also continued with unsubstantiated claims that it isn't possible to play your character differently in Anthem when it very clearly is possible. You can spec for different builds and synergies. I was more meaning in the sense of "role-playing".
|
|
correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
inherit
Dr Obfuscate
807
0
Nov 10, 2023 13:59:26 GMT
5,270
correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,830
August 2016
correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
|
Post by correctamundo on Mar 8, 2019 14:37:31 GMT
Well, you may have said that you wouldn't want to replay the story. Fine. But you also continued with unsubstantiated claims that it isn't possible to play your character differently in Anthem when it very clearly is possible. You can spec for different builds and synergies. I was more meaning in the sense of "role-playing". Yes. Obviously.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Mar 8, 2019 15:01:13 GMT
I'm glad you reposted that, you made good points. I actually think your TW2 example is a plot change, and is similar to the plot change for the In Hushed Whispers/Champions of the Just decision in DAI, but I agree with the point that players have choices which change something. What that something is appears to be a point of contention. Maybe it doesn't matter, because how we got here was arguing about meaningful decisions with consequences in games, and trying to defend both sides of that argument with traditional literary concepts like plot and narrative. My problem with that approach is that the concept of plot only has limited application in games. We have to resort to new constructions like branching plot or interactive plot, and then we have to recapitulate hundreds of years of literary analysis to decide how those new constructs interact with story, narrative, character, theme, mood, etc., etc. I think a more fruitful approach might be to see if we can agree on what "meaningful" means in the context of games. Let me quickly state an analogy that I think takes "branching plot" out of the running as having much or anything to do with meaningful. Any story with a branching plot, whether a game or Netflix's Bandersnatch or a choose your own adventure book, is essentially a collection of precanned stories, each of which follows a unique sequence of branches from beginning to ending. Ultimately, you are just picking one of those precanned stories. Consider the simplest case: a game that has a single yes/no decision, and each side of that decision gives you a different ending. There is no essential difference between a game with that decision, and a novel that is printed as two separate editions in hardback. The publisher conveniently tells you which ending you get in which edition, so you make an informed choice when you buy the book. If that's what meaningful means, which book I pick, "meaningful choices" seems like a pretty weak tool for analyzing the value of a game. Contrast that with a well-run tabletop RPG game. I admit, my bias about narrative vs. player agency is strongly influenced by my years of running TRPG games, most of which were either commercial modules I had heavily altered or scenarios I wrote from scratch myself. Nothing teaches you about the force of player agency over prepared narrative better than a really good roleplaying group that took fiendish delight in turning my scenarios on their heads by making completely unexpected and unplanned for decisions. While it broke my heart over all the great stuff I prepared that they would never see, I also couldn't deny that a lot of the time, the decisions they made were at least as interesting and fun as what I had prepared. Their decisions were meaningful because everyone ended up having a good time. Even me, in no small part because I got to roll consequences that were logical, hilarious, and gave the players even more scope for getting into trouble. In other words, meaningful. With current technology, no game can come close to touching that experience. Maybe some day a game AI can roll consequences to random stuff players do, but today, everything is precanned. The scope of meaningful is constrained by what the game is willing to let players do. Which is why I said before I think it's more a difference of degree we're arguing about, how much the game supports player agency and making up their own story through sandbox features. In a Fallout 3 run, I played a Raider, full evil, screw dad and his dumb water treatment plan; that's my touchstone for agency in games, that I can decide if I'm the hero or the full-on villain. That's what makes a decision meaningful to me, can I make my own story that was never imagined by the writers of the game?
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Apr 30, 2024 21:40:20 GMT
9,181
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,830
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2019 16:55:10 GMT
Hahahahahahahaha. Sorry Heimdall, as much as I have liked your content in the past, the OP, how it was framed, the perspective... This is shillery. Unintentional maybe, but remains what it is. We believe we were lied to because we were actually lied to. There is nothing to doubt, nothing to feel unsure of. That you feel you weren't lied to, in face of all of the evidence all over this forum and in the media for years running - I don't believe you. You're smarter than that. You should probably give some specific examples of what the lies were if you want to really nail him on this. I didn't get the impression that I was lied to myself. Anthem's pretty much what I expected it to be, except that the lot is astoundingly dull. But I didn't follow the marketing too closely since I don't like the genre, so my opinion on this topic isn't really valuable.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Mar 8, 2019 16:59:50 GMT
The curtain doesn’t move. Omg I’m being crushed under the avalanche of lies.
|
|
inherit
265
0
Apr 26, 2024 22:14:28 GMT
11,980
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,910
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
|
Post by Pounce de León on Mar 8, 2019 17:45:35 GMT
The curtain doesn’t move. Omg I’m being crushed under the avalanche of lies. Is iron curtain. Watch your teeth when you run through.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Mar 8, 2019 17:48:25 GMT
The curtain doesn’t move. Omg I’m being crushed under the avalanche of lies. Is iron curtain. Watch your teeth when you run through. This is even better when read in a Russian accent.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 20:20:07 GMT
I think a more fruitful approach might be to see if we can agree on what "meaningful" means in the context of games. Let me quickly state an analogy that I think takes "branching plot" out of the running as having much or anything to do with meaningful. Any story with a branching plot, whether a game or Netflix's Bandersnatch or a choose your own adventure book, is essentially a collection of precanned stories, each of which follows a unique sequence of branches from beginning to ending. Ultimately, you are just picking one of those precanned stories. Consider the simplest case: a game that has a single yes/no decision, and each side of that decision gives you a different ending. There is no essential difference between a game with that decision, and a novel that is printed as two separate editions in hardback. The publisher conveniently tells you which ending you get in which edition, so you make an informed choice when you buy the book. If that's what meaningful means, which book I pick, "meaningful choices" seems like a pretty weak tool for analyzing the value of a game. Dude, you are ruining the illusion of control
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Mar 8, 2019 20:39:46 GMT
This is an excellent video for anyone looking for a really well explained difference between plot, story, and narrative using ... FF as an example . The dude making the video was annoyed at people using the terms interchangeably. He really explains it well, I'm kinda jealous.
|
|
inherit
Ohm's Law Compels You
207
0
19,211
Qui-Gon GlenN7
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
5,762
August 2016
quigonglenn
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
qui_gon_glenn
2108
|
Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 9, 2019 0:06:50 GMT
Hahahahahahahaha. Sorry Heimdall, as much as I have liked your content in the past, the OP, how it was framed, the perspective... This is shillery. Unintentional maybe, but remains what it is. We believe we were lied to because we were actually lied to. There is nothing to doubt, nothing to feel unsure of. That you feel you weren't lied to, in face of all of the evidence all over this forum and in the media for years running - I don't believe you. You're smarter than that. You should probably give some specific examples of what the lies were if you want to really nail him on this. I didn't get the impression that I was lied to myself. Anthem's pretty much what I expected it to be, except that the lot is astoundingly dull. But I didn't follow the marketing too closely since I don't like the genre, so my opinion on this topic isn't really valuable. Your choices matter. Amidoingthisright?
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Apr 30, 2024 21:40:20 GMT
9,181
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,830
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 9, 2019 0:22:08 GMT
You should probably give some specific examples of what the lies were if you want to really nail him on this. I didn't get the impression that I was lied to myself. Anthem's pretty much what I expected it to be, except that the lot is astoundingly dull. But I didn't follow the marketing too closely since I don't like the genre, so my opinion on this topic isn't really valuable. Your choices matter. Amidoingthisright? Better, anyway. Probably hard to really get into this one without going all spoilery.
|
|
inherit
N7
289
0
8,011
Terminator Force
4,312
August 2016
terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
|
Post by Terminator Force on Mar 9, 2019 0:42:57 GMT
|
|
inherit
Ohm's Law Compels You
207
0
19,211
Qui-Gon GlenN7
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
5,762
August 2016
quigonglenn
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
qui_gon_glenn
2108
|
Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 9, 2019 1:18:27 GMT
Your choices matter. Amidoingthisright? Better, anyway. Probably hard to really get into this one without going all spoilery. Oh. Oh ok
|
|
inherit
N7
289
0
8,011
Terminator Force
4,312
August 2016
terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
|
Post by Terminator Force on Mar 9, 2019 2:53:58 GMT
Having only seen first E3 demo, soon after forgotten demo and avoided pretty much most Anthem information seems to have gotten me past these so called lies or whatever this thread is on about.
|
|
inherit
535
0
4,329
clips7
MiNd...ExPaNsIoN....
1,827
August 2016
clips7
Blackgas7
|
Post by clips7 on Mar 9, 2019 4:00:17 GMT
Is iron curtain. Watch your teeth when you run through. This is even better when read in a Russian accent. This is even a better Russian statement...*ahem*...."we will crush you like grape!"........ ..... read in a Russian accent of course....
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Mar 9, 2019 5:10:45 GMT
Having only seen first E3 demo, soon after forgotten demo and avoided pretty much most Anthem information seems to have gotten me past these so called lies or whatever this thread is on about. Yes, gamers who are much more plugged into the gaming community (and this means more than just following your favourite developer on twitter) get burned harder and turn cynical more often than people who aren't as engaged.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Mar 9, 2019 5:26:35 GMT
Having only seen first E3 demo, soon after forgotten demo and avoided pretty much most Anthem information seems to have gotten me past these so called lies or whatever this thread is on about. Yes, gamers who are much more plugged into the gaming community (and this means more than just following your favourite developer on twitter) get burned harder and turn cynical more often than people who aren't as engaged. Let me give an example. So an MMO I'm keeping an eye on is Ashes of Creation. Now if I waddle over to their site I'm greeted with: "Your path will shape the world" "Experience a world where EVERYTHING is permanently affected by YOUR actions" "You will rebuild, repopulate, and rediscover the world of Verra" "Cities will rise and fall, their fates determined through force of power and will" "This is something you've never experienced before - a completely unique world that never stops changing"
Now how likely is this ... in an MMO! I mean it sounds absolutely fantastic, it's an RPG fan's wet dream, but call me a grumpy old cynic but there's no way in hell they're going to pull this off. It just won't happen. But people will buy into this hype, and a decent game will get released, and a bunch of people will be really disappointed. But those who aren't aware of this will wonder what the fuck is going on - is it not a decent MMO and are they not having fun? Sure, I guess, but it's not what was marketed though. They marketed an RPG fan's wet dream and people will want that wet dream damn it!
And this is how cynicism starts
|
|
inherit
217
0
2,752
General Mahad
You'll be peeling goddamn potatoes for the rest of your miserable excuse for a military career!
1,662
August 2016
vaas
|
Post by General Mahad on Mar 9, 2019 5:45:47 GMT
Nuff said.
|
|
bshep
N5
We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
Prime Posts: 1876
Prime Likes: 376
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 7,936
inherit
269
0
7,936
bshep
We destroy them or they destroy us.
4,444
August 2016
bshep
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
MasterDassJennir
1876
376
|
Post by bshep on Mar 9, 2019 7:44:32 GMT
Nothing to say indeed. A game that wants to sell in several plataforms needs to use the lowest possible hardware as it's base. You can't expect the game to need something like 32gb RAM and a RTX 2080 just to run it.
|
|
inherit
N7
289
0
8,011
Terminator Force
4,312
August 2016
terminatorforce
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
TerminatorForce2
|
Post by Terminator Force on Mar 9, 2019 11:42:55 GMT
|
|