inherit
1363
0
Dec 31, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
1,233
garrusfan1
1,826
Aug 30, 2016 16:55:35 GMT
August 2016
garrusfan1
|
Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 8, 2019 1:26:42 GMT
I had hoped before they released ME3 that they would have left the reapers and their motivations for their genocide cycle a mystery. For one it would be really hard to explain it well and two The reapers are this weird alien thing that I liked not understanding. Why does every villain have to believe their good or even explain it. Given that the reapers were described as alien and such by virgil in ME1 at illos. All you needed to know is they are gonna wipe everything out and you needed to stop them.
What do you think?
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Mar 8, 2019 14:39:38 GMT
The Reapers were incomprehensible, unknowable. Given the description given by Sovereign, it would have been better to hint that they were something along the lines of ancient gods, or even a checks and balances system the universe itself created. Maybe they went too far, but we never really know what drives them. Making them the puppets of the Catalyst runs contrary to what Sovereign said in ME1.
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 8, 2019 17:25:42 GMT
I think they did a good job. People's total rejection of the possiblity the Catalyst is doing something good and necessary shows they are beyond and unknowable.
|
|
inherit
1363
0
Dec 31, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
1,233
garrusfan1
1,826
Aug 30, 2016 16:55:35 GMT
August 2016
garrusfan1
|
Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 8, 2019 21:34:27 GMT
I think they did a good job. People's total rejection of the possiblity the Catalyst is doing something good and necessary shows they are beyond and unknowable. that is kinda funny logic.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,887 Likes: 3,546
inherit
9886
0
3,546
ahglock
2,887
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Mar 8, 2019 23:59:08 GMT
Yeah. I would have preferred a mystery than a cliche we are a AI with broken logic. Watch I robot and countless other movies, shows for yet another bad take on this.
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 9, 2019 0:23:02 GMT
I think they did a good job. People's total rejection of the possiblity the Catalyst is doing something good and necessary shows they are beyond and unknowable. that is kinda funny logic. Maybe but it is true. People's complete and total rejection on all level to the point they actively seek out any reason or cause to invalidate the Catalyst's entire statement no matter how vague and fragile. To people looking for and twisting events to create plot holes and other issues to justify their hate and contempt for it. So yea I think some people having the reaction that they literally are incapable of comprehending what they are told and they actively work to fill in their own blanks fairly close to unknowable as possible to get. It is fairly close to how other mediums portray unknowable beings. Hell in the bible the descriptions of angels varies so much from instance to instance because they are suppose to be being beyond our mortal comprehension so we fill in what we see with what ever we can to make sense of it. That is just a visual version to the mental equivalent that is displayed some people when dealing with the Catalyst and the end of the game.
|
|
inherit
1363
0
Dec 31, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
1,233
garrusfan1
1,826
Aug 30, 2016 16:55:35 GMT
August 2016
garrusfan1
|
Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 9, 2019 0:58:52 GMT
that is kinda funny logic. Maybe but it is true. People's complete and total rejection on all level to the point they actively seek out any reason or cause to invalidate the Catalyst's entire statement no matter how vague and fragile. To people looking for and twisting events to create plot holes and other issues to justify their hate and contempt for it. So yea I think some people having the reaction that they literally are incapable of comprehending what they are told and they actively work to fill in their own blanks fairly close to unknowable as possible to get. It is fairly close to how other mediums portray unknowable beings. Hell in the bible the descriptions of angels varies so much from instance to instance because they are suppose to be being beyond our mortal comprehension so we fill in what we see with what ever we can to make sense of it. That is just a visual version to the mental equivalent that is displayed some people when dealing with the Catalyst and the end of the game. To be fair though I actually felt this way before ME3 came out. That was before I knew about the space kid
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
26,308
themikefest
15,636
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Mar 9, 2019 13:25:25 GMT
Yes, and then learn about them in ME4. Here's what I mean. Have the trilogy nearly the same in it's current state. In Leviathan dlc, Shepard asks if they know what the catalyst is. It will not realize the intelligence and catalyst is one and the same. After Shepard passes out, the crucible fires its red beam of destroy, after the arms to the Citadel are fully opened. The post ending, or can take place at the beginning of ME4, is Shepard tells Hackett that he/she never encountered the intelligence or the master, as Vendetta calls it. ME4 would be about finding the origins of the reapers. Shepard is tasked with fining those answers as to why the reapers did what they did. Of course, a new main character could do this while Shepard is on the sidelines giving advice throughout the game.
|
|
inherit
3035
0
May 28, 2024 15:29:11 GMT
2,341
sil
1,551
Jan 28, 2017 10:19:12 GMT
January 2017
sil
|
Post by sil on Mar 9, 2019 22:24:15 GMT
I still think that Leviathan gave a great explanation of why the Intelligence was created and the history of Harbingers origin, but I feel it should've been added as a core storyline in the main game and, also, it should've been a bias account of why it all happened, with the true history being revealed during the Catalyst conversation. I've long felt that it should've been Harbinger who started the cycle, not the Intelligence.
I feel the Intelligence should have identified the cause of the synthetic rebellions as being the Leviathans themselves (which the Leviathans conveniently neglect to reveal). Their god-like dominance over their 'thrall species' lead these slaves to create their own pawns, these synthetics were then mistreated and so they rebelled. Organic thralls creating synthetic slaves. When the Intelligence determined that the Leviathans are the source of the conflict, it moved against them but knew that it could not eradicate them as it was programmed to preserve organic life. To preserve their lives, the Intelligence ascends the Leviathans into a synthetic form, the entire species uploaded into a gestalt consciousness that preserves the collective knowledge of the entire species. Harbingers construction was the completion of the Intelligence's work, there should not be a cycle as the source of the issue had been removed.
Obviously this went wrong. Any race as egotistical and dominating as the Leviathans would never stay passive, and this wasn't something that the Intelligence anticipated. Harbinger, created from the merged minds of almost every Leviathan in the galaxy, rebels and leaves the Intelligence powerless against it. Harbinger establishes the Cycle. Its reasons and motivations are unknown, but it is made clear to Shepard that Harbinger controls the Reapers. To attempt to correct its mistake, the Intelligence draws up the first Crucible design and seeds this to successive Cycles, updating the design after each war.
I feel this would feel truer to the Reapers we saw in ME1/2; we saw them act in horrendous ways (as a slavemaster/Leviathan would, with Harbinger in control this makes sense, controlling pawns and corrupting their minds and bodies), their motivations remain mysterious while giving us a true account of their origin, and it avoids the whole "killing organics to save organics" line of thought that feels incompatible with everything we see. Also, we have an answer for how the Crucible design exists and why the Intelligence/Catalyst is required to use it.
Though this would probably require different options on the Catalyst scene to work right.
|
|
inherit
1363
0
Dec 31, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
1,233
garrusfan1
1,826
Aug 30, 2016 16:55:35 GMT
August 2016
garrusfan1
|
Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 9, 2019 22:57:45 GMT
Yes, and then learn about them in ME4. Here's what I mean. Have the trilogy nearly the same in it's current state. In Leviathan dlc, Shepard asks if they know what the catalyst is. It will not realize the intelligence and catalyst is one and the same. After Shepard passes out, the crucible fires its red beam of destroy, after the arms to the Citadel are fully opened. The post ending, or can take place at the beginning of ME4, is Shepard tells Hackett that he/she never encountered the intelligence or the master, as Vendetta calls it. ME4 would be about finding the origins of the reapers. Shepard is tasked with fining those answers as to why the reapers did what they did. Of course, a new main character could do this while Shepard is on the sidelines giving advice throughout the game. I would play this in a heartbeat. However I really hope they make the next mass effect game not be about the reapers. I mean they can be mentioned and the aftermath would stay fresh for hundreds of years. However a new threat would be prefferable. Although maybe they could try to find the origin in order to make more mass relays.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Mar 10, 2019 3:46:00 GMT
I think they did a good job. People's total rejection of the possiblity the Catalyst is doing something good and necessary shows they are beyond and unknowable. that is kinda funny logic. I do totally reject the Catalyst but I see the point. It's a super-intelligent AI that's been around for a billion years, doubtless evaluating things on a continue basis. That should, in theory, means it has calculated all possible outcomes and only the ones presented were workable. At least, that's the theory. In practice I would in no way trust the thing (thanks themikefest for giving me that perfect description) to do right by me and mine. I toast that fucker with no reservations.
|
|
Ergunk
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: MulleManden
Posts: 32 Likes: 51
inherit
6780
0
51
Ergunk
32
April 2017
ergunk
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
MulleManden
|
Post by Ergunk on Mar 10, 2019 10:22:45 GMT
I personally liked the idea that they were once Leviathian, the galaxy's first and only apex race.
However, that catalyst stuff was just so off the rails i feel like they could had done something else, or atleast do better with the catalyst.
|
|
ergates
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 725 Likes: 1,286
inherit
2468
0
Nov 26, 2024 16:40:08 GMT
1,286
ergates
725
Dec 24, 2016 13:39:58 GMT
December 2016
ergates
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by ergates on Mar 11, 2019 15:30:55 GMT
I think most people like to have resolutions to mysteries, at least in time.
We have potentially around 160-to-180 hours of gameplay where The Reapers truly are unknowable and mysterious... until we eventually launch the DLC (if you're anything like me you'll do it late-game, probably after Priority:Thessia).
it's not too bad to get some answers after so long in the dark.
|
|
inherit
10735
0
Jul 17, 2022 15:59:28 GMT
362
sassafrassa
292
January 2019
sassafrassa
|
Post by sassafrassa on Mar 12, 2019 4:03:48 GMT
Yes, I don't think there was ever going to be any satisfying or "epic" way to explain their motivations. At the end of the day, their motivations could be perfectly logical and perfectly mundane; survival. They want to survive for the eons, for hundreds of billions of years. Well how do you do that? You do it by conserving resources, ensuring no rivals arise to challenge you, and you hibernate as much as possible to conserve your energy for the long, slow, heat-death of the universe. However that isn't very dramatic so it's probably a better idea to never discuss the Reaper's motives at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
10036
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 5:08:42 GMT
I wish that Bioware had a better idea of what the Reapers were and their motivations were to be BEFORE they started writing a Trilogy about them. They were unknowable in ME1 because Bioware themselves didn't know what they wanted to do with them... and that weakens the story right from the outset... and left it open to be weakened further by their ever-changing ideas about the Reapers. Furthermore, IMO, "unknowable" does not equal "alien" or "mysterious." Sovereign did nothing in ME1 that could actually be considered mysterious. They were first presented as "sentient machines"; which is essentially AI (so it's really not surprising that, in the end, they tried to circle back to that idea with the Catalyst after leading us on a merry chase of other "half-thought out ideas about them). Sovereign was also initially reduced to being Saren's ship and Saren was the antagonist with the mysterious motivations... and that impression was left in place for most of ME1's story. Sovereign was only revealed as being sentient on Virmire with a few scant details about the nature of the harvest being provided only by Vigil at the very end of the game.
|
|
ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,887 Likes: 3,546
inherit
9886
0
3,546
ahglock
2,887
Feb 21, 2018 17:57:17 GMT
February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
|
Post by ahglock on Mar 12, 2019 6:07:03 GMT
that is kinda funny logic. I do totally reject the Catalyst but I see the point. It's a super-intelligent AI that's been around for a billion years, doubtless evaluating things on a continue basis. That should, in theory, means it has calculated all possible outcomes and only the ones presented were workable. At least, that's the theory. In practice I would in no way trust the thing (thanks themikefest for giving me that perfect description) to do right by me and mine. I toast that fucker with no reservations. I think that's the problem. I mean I guess it might be unknowable, but it was more presented in a way that everyone understood but just disagreed with. It's like if at the end he said we do this because 2+2= 5 you'd be like um no its 4. You get the equation, you just have a different answer. Sure, there may be some deep hidden reason why he is right or thinks he is right that 2+2=5 but it is never presented that way. He explains very clearly why they do this, and everyone gets it, they just don't agree, they reject the catalysts conclusion.
|
|