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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 14:42:17 GMT
That's fine if the asari say they recently found an artifact though t'soni says when she was younger, her mother took her to the temple. The other thing is the asari councilor could have mind melded with Shepard to see the visions for herself
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 16:58:34 GMT
That's fine if the asari say they recently found an artifact though t'soni says when she was younger, her mother took her to the temple. The other thing is the asari councilor could have mind melded with Shepard to see the visions for herself Pulling from your other comments, let's accept that there was no purpose to Liara melding with Shepard to see the visions. Shepard has the cipher and understands the visions him/herself.
Why would there then be a motivation for the Asari councillor to meld with Shepard just to see the visions particularly if the council is competent and already believes Shepard about the Reapers? If she has no purpose to ask to do so, why would Shepard offer to be "mind probed" (to use a term from one of the dialogue cues in ME1) particularly if he/she is a Shepard who is suspicious of aliens to start with?
Also, since we are speculating about the game being written differently than it was, my artifact recently discovered scenario would simply include Liara not saying that her mother took her there as a child. Perhaps she would say she read a recent academic article about a new Prothean did site on Thessia instead. The basic point is that the game could have had a competent council and still been written such that the Alliance and the Council races had not as yet discovered any means to complete the Crucible until late into the game... and without a completed crucible, they did not have the means to stop the Reapers conventionally (as Hackett told us early in the game).
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 17:20:49 GMT
Since Shiala said it would take time for Shepard to fully understand the cipher, it would be a good idea to have t'soni along to add any insight that might help Shepard understand the cipher better. The councilor has no obligation to do anything especially since there's no evidence of what Shepard says or the visions he/she has. I would guess Shepard might not have a problem being melded, if that's what it took for the councilor to believe.
The motivation for the councilor, assuming she's willing to meld with Shepard, could be that if Shepard saw visions of something from the beacon showing death and destruction, what would the artifact show? She likely knows the asari have been trying to get as much information from the artifact that it could be a key to something more.
t'soni doesn't have to say anything about ever being at the temple. She could just say she heard about it, but never been there. Yes, the asari can say the artifact was recently found, but I'm sure there would be questions asking if the temple was built there however long ago, why no one noticed the artifact until recently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 17:44:05 GMT
Since Shiala said it would take time for Shepard to fully understand the cipher, it would be a good idea to have t'soni along to add any insight that might help Shepard understand the cipher better. The councilor has no obligation to do anything especially since there's no evidence of what Shepard says or the visions he/she has. I would guess Shepard might not have a problem being melded, if that's what it took for the councilor to believe. The motivation for the councilor, assuming she's willing to meld with Shepard, could be that if Shepard saw visions of something from the beacon showing death and destruction, what would the artifact show? She likely knows the asari have been trying to get as much information from the artifact that it could be a key to something more. t'soni doesn't have to say anything about ever being at the temple. She could just say she heard about it, but never been there. Yes, the asari can say the artifact was recently found, but I'm sure there would be questions asking if the temple was built there however long ago, why no one noticed the artifact until recently. In your scenario, why bother with changing when the artifact was found. In ME3 currently, I believe the Asari councillor does indicate that she doesn't actually know where the Catalyst is and that the artifact MAY (only possibly) help Shepard find it. There is evidence to suggest that Vendetta never appeared to any of the Asari who set up the Temple or else he would have confirmed the "post-Prothean cycle" previous to being activated by Shepard. We don't even really know for sure that they were able to activate the beacon itself at all. The humans on Eden Prime recognized the beacon there as something special without having activated it themselves. All that's certain is that the Asari found it and didn't share the find with the rest of the galaxy; whereas the humans immediately brought in the Turians (but Shepard could question that move himself/herself right at the beginning of ME1). Just because squad mates like Ashley assume that the Asari had plenty of time to figure the beacon out, also doesn't necessarily mean that the Asari did figure it out.
From Javik's comments, we actually learn that it was the Prothean's tutoring that advanced the Asari, not the Asari advancing themselves via the beacon. We are also told in ME1 that the Protheans also taught the Hanar language... advancing them in a simialr way they advanced the Asari... which makes me wonder what sort of beacon they might be hiding.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 18:04:17 GMT
In your scenario, why bother with changing when the artifact was found. How many lives could have been saved had the artidact been found earlier? I say that's reason enough to change when its found. If not in ME1, then earlier in ME3. Ok. I don't believe anyone has ever said the councilor knew about where/what the catalyst is. Same as above. I don't believe anyone has said Vendetta showed itself before Shepard showed up.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 1, 2019 18:09:16 GMT
The destiny ascension was running you don’t pack the council on to fight. They weren’t going to do shit for the battle. The main drive was down, barriers weak even if they stuck around what would they do. Yeah it's almost as if their engines got taken out before they could get to safety I think
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 19:21:12 GMT
In your scenario, why bother with changing when the artifact was found. How many lives could have been saved had the artidact been found earlier? I say that's reason enough to change when its found. If not in ME1, then earlier in ME3. Ok. I don't believe anyone has ever said the councilor knew about where/what the catalyst is. Same as above. I don't believe anyone has said Vendetta showed itself before Shepard showed up. What motivation do the Asari actually have to tell Shepard about their Prothean Beacon in ME1? The plans for the Crucible haven't been found yet so there is nothing to suggest that sharing their beacon with the humans would solve anything... particularly if the Asari haven't actually figured out how to activate it yet. In ME1, Shepard is looking for the Conduit, but should, by your own assertion, have figured everything out on his own after obtaining the cipher from Shiala (and conversely not been able to figure out the Asari beacon before receiving the cipher from Shiala. It's clear that Shiala was unlikely to even know anything about the Asari beacon since it was highly classified and, as she said herself, there was nothing special about her."
It's unlikely that Bioware would have written the story in such a way that those many lives would have been saved. They would have merely come up with a different mechanism to ensure that Shepard's access of the Asari beacon made no tangible difference.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 19:34:21 GMT
I already posted a possible motivation in one of my posts above. Or did you quote the wrong post again?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 20:30:13 GMT
I already posted a possible motivation in one of my posts above. Or did you quote the wrong post again? As the game is written currently, Shepard does not confide the "death and destruction" contained in the vision to the Asari councillor and the rest of the council. He/she only says that the Reapers will wipe out all civilization again if Saren finds the Conduit. He confides that to Anderson and can indicate in a variety of different ways that the council simply won't believe him and basically request that Anderson not tell them. Given how Anderson responds in that conversation, he's more likely to imply the beacons contain blueprints for weapons of mass destruction - in which case, I would think that gives the Asari even more incentive to just keep their possession of a beacon secret until they themselves can figure it out. It also doesn't really explain why Shepard would allow her to meld with him/her. Since the competent councillor would just believe Shepard about the Reapers and the Conduit, Shepard has nothing to gain from such a meld.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 20:42:07 GMT
No kidding that Shepard hasn't mentioned that to the councilor. That's why my scenario is a what if, right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 21:00:13 GMT
No kidding that Shepard hasn't mentioned that to the councilor. That's why my scenario is a what if, right? So, do you agree then that, as the game is written, the Asari might have some motivation for being suspicious of Shepard and Anderson and have a reason for keeping the Thessia beacon secret at least through the entirety of ME1: If the beacon might contain blueprints for weapons of mass destruction and "Saren took" them (as Anderson believes), then a possible motivation for Shepard wanting to go after Saren could actually be just to get those blueprints back for humanity and the Reapers just being a convenient excuse rather than a serious threat to all life in the galaxy. The multi-species council may not even be around at all throughout ME2 so it's hard to suggest that the Asari councillor should have fessed up about the Asari beacon then. That leaves only ME3... when there is still no indication that any of the beacons contain any helpful information about the Catalyst... since none of them accessed by Shepard throughout ME1 or ME2 contained anything more than the generic message that was transmitted (albeit damaged) in the first one and potentially no way for the Asari to be sure their beacon would convey anything different (particularly since vigil, at the end of ME1, basically tells us that the same message was sent out across the entire beacon network).
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 21:45:34 GMT
In other words do I agree with your post?
I wouldn't agree about suspicious. Maybe a bit worried. If what Shepard says is true, could the artifact give any information about what Shepard saw. I would likely tell Shepard to come back when/if he/she has any evidence before I would do anything.
In ME3, the councilor sees the plans for the device. At the time it's of prothean design. Realizing that there are currently worlds under attack, I would get with the Matriarchs to give Shepard permission to take a look at the artifact to see if it can help with finding the catalyst, or at the very least, give any helpful information. I would not wait until the last moment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 21:56:44 GMT
In other words do I agree with your post? I wouldn't agree about suspicious. Maybe a bit worried. If what Shepard says is true, could the artifact give any information about what Shepard saw. I would likely tell Shepard to come back when/if he/she has any evidence before I would do anything. In ME3, the councilor sees the plans for the device. At the time it's of prothean design. Realizing that there are currently worlds under attack, I would get with the Matriarchs to give Shepard permission to take a look at the artifact to see if it can help with finding the catalyst, or at the very least, give any helpful information. I would not wait until the last moment. The plans for the device, however, were not found in a beacon; but rather in archives. As I said, throughout ME2 Shepard encounters some beacons... all of which only contain the same information as the first one. Why would anyone have cause to believe the Asari beacon would contain the answer to the Catalyst rather than simply assume that it would most likely be like all the others?
IMO, it's a "miracle" desperation caused her to take a long shot and send Shepard to Thessia "just in case." I also don't think it's a coincidence that she chooses to wait until Udina is out of the picture (due to suspicions as I mentioned previously). I'd be more inclined to write the game to head back to Mars to scour those archives even deeper to see if the missing piece to the blueprint could be found where the blueprint itself was found or to draw in a mission involving the Citadel Archives (instead of just chasing Shepard's clone through the building).
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Post by themikefest on Apr 1, 2019 22:49:35 GMT
No one said the plans were found in a beacon. Since the plans, at the time were of prothean design found in prothean ruins, I don't see a problem with sending Shepard to Thessia to investigate the artifact to see if it has any information that can help.
So just write off the artifact with the assumption that it won't have anything useful like the beacons in ME2? I would check it out regardless just to make sure. If it doesn't have anything useful...at least Shepard can say they looked. What's the saying? Don't leave no stone unturned.
I suspect that Cerberus returned to Mars to find the information leading to Thessia. I would guess the evabot wasn't able to download everything before being chased. What I would have done is have t'soni stay back to find out if there's anymore information left to download while Shepard and A/K chase the evabot.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 1, 2019 22:58:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2019 23:05:05 GMT
No one said the plans were found in a beacon. Since the plans, at the time were of prothean design found in prothean ruins, I don't see a problem with sending Shepard to Thessia to investigate the artifact to see if it has any information that can help. So just write off the artifact with the assumption that it won't have anything useful like the beacons in ME2? I would check it out regardless just to make sure. If it doesn't have anything useful...at least Shepard can say they looked. What's the saying? Don't leave no stone unturned. I suspect that Cerberus returned to Mars to find the information leading to Thessia. I would guess the evabot wasn't able to download everything before being chased. What I would have done is have t'soni stay back to find out if there's anymore information left to download while Shepard and A/K chase the evabot. The artifact was a beacon, though.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 2, 2019 1:03:06 GMT
Pulling from your other comments, let's accept that there was no purpose to Liara melding with Shepard to see the visions. Shepard has the cipher and understands the visions him/herself. There's a purpose, but it's really only needed one time, which is after Shepard gets the cipher. The only reason it really has to be her is because of her awareness of Ilos. It's possible other asari could know of Ilos but no guarantees.
Why would there then be a motivation for the Asari councillor to meld with Shepard just to see the visions particularly if the council is competent and already believes Shepard about the Reapers? If she has no purpose to ask to do so, why would Shepard offer to be "mind probed" (to use a term from one of the dialogue cues in ME1) particularly if he/she is a Shepard who is suspicious of aliens to start with? In ME1, it would have made sense for her to do it in regard to Saren. In ME2, when they've "dismissed that claim" it could have made a huge difference between prepping for 2 years or scrambling as the Reapers invade. No guarantees the two years would have made a difference but maybe at that point the asari could have been searching their archives (read: the beacon on Thessia) for discover something. Ditto Earth spending more time studying the ruins on Mars. They would have known about the Crucible two years in advance and that could have changed everything.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 2, 2019 2:18:05 GMT
Pulling from your other comments, let's accept that there was no purpose to Liara melding with Shepard to see the visions. Shepard has the cipher and understands the visions him/herself. There's a purpose, but it's really only needed one time, which is after Shepard gets the cipher. The only reason it really has to be her is because of her awareness of Ilos. It's possible other asari could know of Ilos but no guarantees.
Why would there then be a motivation for the Asari councillor to meld with Shepard just to see the visions particularly if the council is competent and already believes Shepard about the Reapers? If she has no purpose to ask to do so, why would Shepard offer to be "mind probed" (to use a term from one of the dialogue cues in ME1) particularly if he/she is a Shepard who is suspicious of aliens to start with? In ME1, it would have made sense for her to do it in regard to Saren. In ME2, when they've "dismissed that claim" it could have made a huge difference between prepping for 2 years or scrambling as the Reapers invade. No guarantees the two years would have made a difference but maybe at that point the asari could have been searching their archives (read: the beacon on Thessia) for discover something. Ditto Earth spending more time studying the ruins on Mars. They would have known about the Crucible two years in advance and that could have changed everything. Yeah in ME1 you can understand why they are skeptical of the reapers but in ME2 we see that they are already trying to cover it up before shepard died by blaming the geth. If the asari had studied that prothean beacon more during that time and the humans had studied the mars ruins more think of how big of a difference would have been made. They could have still kept the reaper threat quiet and been ready for that. Hell they could have beefed up their fleets more and more saying they needed to be ready for any threat and that would have still been something. And they could have done that and still downplayed the reaper threat pubicly. Instead they did nothing and there is no excuse for it.
And the way they talked to shepard in ME2 if you saved them made me want to reach into the screen and strangle them. Esepcially the turian councilor and his air quotes.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 3, 2019 0:01:47 GMT
t doesn't really matter because none of the choices didn't really impact the narrative, and there are no consequences if the Council is sacrificed. Either way, they are incompetent when it comes to facing the main threat that will affect the entire galaxy. How do you know that affects the entire gameplay since there is no alternate choice in the game?
For all we know, a competent council who did everything they could to prepare against the Reapers may have found themselves in the exact same position... just having fired a few more rounds at them during the whole-sale attack on their planets. They may have still be struggling to find and build an alien super-weapon, etc. We don't know, for example, that the Prothean government was incompetent or competent. They put up a prolonged fight against the harvest and tried numerous different things to save themselves (including cryo projects on at least two separate planets - Ilos and Eden Prime). Yet, the result was that they were wiped out by the Reapers. You just can't stay away from me, can't ya?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 0:27:02 GMT
How do you know that affects the entire gameplay since there is no alternate choice in the game?
For all we know, a competent council who did everything they could to prepare against the Reapers may have found themselves in the exact same position... just having fired a few more rounds at them during the whole-sale attack on their planets. They may have still be struggling to find and build an alien super-weapon, etc. We don't know, for example, that the Prothean government was incompetent or competent. They put up a prolonged fight against the harvest and tried numerous different things to save themselves (including cryo projects on at least two separate planets - Ilos and Eden Prime). Yet, the result was that they were wiped out by the Reapers. You just can't stay away from me, can't ya? Feel free to block me then. IDC.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 3, 2019 19:05:49 GMT
Would a competent council have made a difference? Possible. They know there was a prothean beacon on Eden Prime. Anderson mentions Shepards vision. The asari councilor, at least the replacement in ME3, knew about the artifact on Thessia. If she were to talk to the asari matriarchs, its possible they might let Shepard take a look, after he/she, received the cipher, and have t'soni with Shepard, to study the artifact. At that point, Vendetta would reveal all kinds of information about the reapers and what the protheans learned that can help this cycle. That is quite of a plot hole.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 3, 2019 19:06:32 GMT
You just can't stay away from me, can't ya? Feel free to block me then. IDC. I wasn't even serious. 😏
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 19:18:40 GMT
Feel free to block me then. IDC. I wasn't even serious. 😏 Then consider my response to only be as serious as you were being in the first place. Again, IDC.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 4, 2019 18:29:06 GMT
That's fine if the asari say they recently found an artifact though t'soni says when she was younger, her mother took her to the temple. The other thing is the asari councilor could have mind melded with Shepard to see the visions for herself Pulling from your other comments, let's accept that there was no purpose to Liara melding with Shepard to see the visions. Shepard has the cipher and understands the visions him/herself.
Why would there then be a motivation for the Asari councillor to meld with Shepard just to see the visions particularly if the council is competent and already believes Shepard about the Reapers? If she has no purpose to ask to do so, why would Shepard offer to be "mind probed" (to use a term from one of the dialogue cues in ME1) particularly if he/she is a Shepard who is suspicious of aliens to start with?
Also, since we are speculating about the game being written differently than it was, my artifact recently discovered scenario would simply include Liara not saying that her mother took her there as a child. Perhaps she would say she read a recent academic article about a new Prothean did site on Thessia instead. The basic point is that the game could have had a competent council and still been written such that the Alliance and the Council races had not as yet discovered any means to complete the Crucible until late into the game... and without a completed crucible, they did not have the means to stop the Reapers conventionally (as Hackett told us early in the game).
She needed to mind meld with shepard because she recognized illos. Otherwise shepard would never have figured it out.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 4, 2019 18:37:39 GMT
t doesn't really matter because none of the choices didn't really impact the narrative, and there are no consequences if the Council is sacrificed. Either way, they are incompetent when it comes to facing the main threat that will affect the entire galaxy. How do you know that affects the entire gameplay since there is no alternate choice in the game?
For all we know, a competent council who did everything they could to prepare against the Reapers may have found themselves in the exact same position... just having fired a few more rounds at them during the whole-sale attack on their planets. They may have still be struggling to find and build an alien super-weapon, etc. We don't know, for example, that the Prothean government was incompetent or competent. They put up a prolonged fight against the harvest and tried numerous different things to save themselves (including cryo projects on at least two separate planets - Ilos and Eden Prime). Yet, the result was that they were wiped out by the Reapers. Maybe they would have found stuff earlier. That said The prothean government was destroyed right off the back when the reapers came so they had no time to prepare. On the other hand the council had more then two years to prepare and they did nothing. Even if they had just built a ton of war ships it may have made a little bit of a difference in fighting the reapers. Or if shiala was alive they could have brought her to the temple in thessia where she could have deciphered the beacon or whatever vendetta was. Or she could have given someone else the cipher and an asari matriarch could have done it. Instead they left her to help the people on feros. She gave the cipher to shepard so obviously she could give it so someone else. The reapers could have been destroyed before they even got to the milky way
Hell not having shiala give the cipher to someone or have an asari take it from shepard (I am sure if the council ordered him to he would have shared it with an asari) Was a stupid decision anyways. I mean having someone with that cipher use it to help decipher future prothean artifacts (not just the one on thesssia) would have made a huge difference and moved the galaxy forward technologicly by alot. So I don't know what they were thinking.
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