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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 14:27:35 GMT
Hackett? Yeah about that guy. Isn't he the same guy who failed to mention that Shepard may encounter Cerberus on Mars? Instead he thought it would be more important to say the reapers can't be beaten conventionally when that has nothing to do with nothing at that time. And the Joker guy. All he cared about was flying. He didn't care about the reapers or Cerberus past. Rejoin the Alliance? Look how that worked out. Get locked up for 6 months then have Anderson saying they need Shepard's help after he said to Shepard in ME2, its up to you Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. Where was the renegade interrupt to smack Anderson upside the head? Hackett probably wasn't aware that Cerberus was on Mars. Dr. Eva was undercover, remember, and had only been there a short while (per Liara). Cerberus, no doubt, sprang the attack on Mars just moments before Shepard arrived there himself/herself... i.e. after he became aware that the Reapers were headed towards earth to attack there. Regardless of what you want to believe, it is canon that Shepard rejoined the Alliance in ME3. If you did Arrival, it's also canon that he returned to earth at Hackett's request to "face the music." How is one to believe that you'll accept Bioware choosing a canon ending for ME3 (if it doesn't exactly match your preconceived idead) when you can't accept the canon choices they already made within the OT itself?
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2019 14:51:24 GMT
Hackett probably wasn't aware that Cerberus was on Mars. And yet he says to Shepard that he thought they might try something. Is there a point to what you said or are you just stating the obvious?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 15:29:02 GMT
Hackett probably wasn't aware that Cerberus was on Mars. And yet he says to Shepard that he thought they might try something. Is there a point to what you said or are you just stating the obvious? Saying "he thought they might try something" does not equate to enough to warrant warning Shepard about encountering them there. At that point, it's just a shot in the dark guess that they might try something somewhere at some point in time. It doesn't mean he has any intelligence to pass along to Shepard about it at all.
I gave my point in the next sentence. Your Shepard simply doesn't jive well with the canon one. The canon Shepard was a patsy for Cerberus who conned himself/herself into believe he/she was working "with" Cerberus. Ashley/Kaidan called it right. At that point, Shepard had no idea where his/her loyalties should lie. Liara gave her honest reason for doing what she did. No one else was interested in bringing Shepard back. The Alliance, at that point, wanted Shepard as a "poster boy/girl" - an icon to promote recruiting... a better one dead than alive. Cerberus wanted a patsy... but at least they needed a live patsy. How your Shepard felt about Liara is totally irrelevant. It's all about how Liara felt about Shepard... whether you like it or not.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2019 15:53:19 GMT
Knowing that Cerberus might try something should be enough to inform Shepard to be on the lookout just in case.
If the asari had mentioned Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus, would A/K have called it right? Not likely. Regardless of where Shepard's loyalties were, my Shepard had no problem working with Cerberus to find out what happened to the missing colonists sinc4e the alliance wasn't doing much of anything.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 16:10:13 GMT
Knowing that Cerberus might try something should be enough to inform Shepard to be on the lookout just in case. If the asari had mentioned Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus, would A/K have called it right? Not likely. Regardless of where Shepard's loyalties were, my Shepard had no problem working with Cerberus to find out what happened to the missing colonists sinc4e the alliance wasn't doing much of anything. You only have TIM telling you that the Alliance was doing nothing. If you didn't trust him, why would you believe that. Fact is, the Alliance was doing something. They send A/K to the Colony on Horizon to install a gun to help protect themselves. Shouldn't your Shepard have at least checked things out with the Alliance BEFORE agreeing to accept TIM's offer and take command of the SR2... but the truth is that Shepard isn't free to do that. TIM and Cerberus control, at that point, who he/she contacts. Contact with Anderson isn't possible before agreeing to take command of the SR2.
... and, again, without intelligence, Hackett has nothing to tell Shepard that would help him/her on Mars. It's not like the shuttle was ambushed by Cerberus upon landing. If fact, Shepard was able to sneak up and ambush them. Also, Hackett may not, at that point, completely trust Shepard. He/she was working under the control of Cerberus before returning to earth and, despite not having any obvious contact with them while in detention, could have still be working "with" them.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 3, 2019 17:43:26 GMT
Does Hackett say that "he thought Cerberus might do something" after the mission? Been a while since I played ME3 but I guess he did, otherwise mikefest's point wouldn't make sense. If so, you don't even know when Hackett received the intel to make him assume that. Might be he got word that Cerberus movement was still spotted in the Sol System right after he got disconnected from Shep. But the old mikefest-Hackett blood feud will never end, I suppose.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2019 18:43:09 GMT
Its too bad Shepard couldn't ask Hackett what he meant when he said he thought Cerberus would try something? Another one of those questions I would have liked Shepard to ask in the trilogy. What's this old mikefest-Hackett blood feud thing? Does that mean there's a youngster dromedary-Hackett love connection that will never end, I suppose.
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Post by burningcherry on May 5, 2019 1:55:03 GMT
While doing that, Shepard learned the Alliance made no effort to confirm his/her death, learned that the characters that helped stop Saren turned into c**kroaches scattering throughout the galaxy without making any effort to deal with the reapers. Not really. Wrex was trying to get the krogans to rebuild their strength before Reapers come and Tali was researching destructive dark energy phenomena, which Andromeda proved to be weaponizable. At least Cerberus was willing to do something about the abductions while the Alliance sat around wondering how many heads they can stick up their fifth-point-of-contact. They armed colonies with sufficient defenses.
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Post by themikefest on May 5, 2019 11:22:41 GMT
Not really. Wrex was trying to get the krogans to rebuild their strength before Reapers come and Tali was researching destructive dark energy phenomena, which Andromeda proved to be weaponizable. What does that have to do with finding a way to stop the reapers? They armed colonies with sufficient defenses. Besides Horizon, what other colonies had defenses?
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Post by burningcherry on May 5, 2019 12:21:25 GMT
Not really. Wrex was trying to get the krogans to rebuild their strength before Reapers come and Tali was researching destructive dark energy phenomena, which Andromeda proved to be weaponizable. What does that have to do with finding a way to stop the reapers? Don't know what they had in mind but their work was leading towards, in indetermined future, means to stop Reaper thralls with numbers and tear them apart with dark energy blasts. We know about Fehl Prime.
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 5, 2019 19:45:56 GMT
While doing that, Shepard learned the Alliance made no effort to confirm his/her death, learned that the characters that helped stop Saren turned into c**kroaches scattering throughout the galaxy without making any effort to deal with the reapers. Not really. Wrex was trying to get the krogans to rebuild their strength before Reapers come and Tali was researching destructive dark energy phenomena, which Andromeda proved to be weaponizable. At least Cerberus was willing to do something about the abductions while the Alliance sat around wondering how many heads they can stick up their fifth-point-of-contact. They armed colonies with sufficient defenses. I got the feeling wrex was just trying to reunite the krogan like he did before but failed last time. Tali was just investigating why a star was messing up because the admiralty board ordered her too.
And to be fair to the alliance those colonists moved into terminus space where the alliance couldn't help them. The "giving them guns" was just a token effort to look good in my opinion. And again those colonists left alliance space and alliance protections. The council seems to be VERY hesitant to mess with the terminus systems for fear they will unite against the council races.
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Post by brfritos on May 14, 2019 21:18:21 GMT
And to be fair to the alliance those colonists moved into terminus space where the alliance couldn't help them. The "giving them guns" was just a token effort to look good in my opinion. And again those colonists left alliance space and alliance protections. The council seems to be VERY hesitant to mess with the terminus systems for fear they will unite against the council races.
Which makes no sense also, since the Alliance pretty much kicked the Terminus System arse with a single "fleet" composed of frigates. Remember what Pressly says about the so famous Skyllian Blitz?
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Post by burningcherry on May 17, 2019 11:35:47 GMT
And to be fair to the alliance those colonists moved into terminus space where the alliance couldn't help them. The "giving them guns" was just a token effort to look good in my opinion. And again those colonists left alliance space and alliance protections. The council seems to be VERY hesitant to mess with the terminus systems for fear they will unite against the council races.
Which makes no sense also, since the Alliance pretty much kicked the Terminus System arse with a single "fleet" composed of frigates. Remember what Pressly says about the so famous Skyllian Blitz?
Winning a decisive clash is one thing, securing a space Syberia with patrols is another. The state as per around when those colonies were established was like this:
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Post by brfritos on May 17, 2019 11:50:56 GMT
Which makes no sense also, since the Alliance pretty much kicked the Terminus System arse with a single "fleet" composed of frigates. Remember what Pressly says about the so famous Skyllian Blitz?
Winning a decisive clash is one thing, securing a space Syberia with patrols is another. The state as per around when those colonies were established was like this:
From what novel this is? Revelation?
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Post by burningcherry on May 17, 2019 12:11:38 GMT
Winning a decisive clash is one thing, securing a space Syberia with patrols is another. The state as per around when those colonies were established was like this: From what novel this is? Revelation?
Revelation, chapter 1.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 18, 2019 16:45:47 GMT
I usually let the Council die. Their survival really, really isn't as important as Sovereign's destruction is. And I get a kick out of the Salarian Councilor continually chiding you that "sometimes, Spectres must make sacrifices" throughout the game, only for his life to be one of the ones sacrificed "for the greater good" when that chicken comes home to roost. Seriously though, if it weren't their own lives in danger they'd never even consider ordering Shepard to waste time defending the Destiny Ascension instead of focusing on the Reaper. So I accept that they can't give unbiased directives under the circumstances and follow the spirit of what they would want. If they weren't panicking, I'm sure they would be happy to give their lives to save the Citadel. Right? Also, letting them die gives humanity the upper hand in galactic politics. Not saying it isn't important to play nice with the other species, but at the end of the day Shepard still bleeds red.
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Post by bardox on May 25, 2019 5:25:51 GMT
For my cannon playthrough, I save the Council. I don't give two shits about the council members, but consider what the job of a Spectre -IS-... Preserve Galactic stability by whatever means necessary. Letting the Destiny Ascension be destroyed fails this goal in two respects:
1) The council is the governing body of Citadel space. When a government has a dispute, the Citadel Council is the body that settles it peacefully. If they all die, then of course they will be replaced, but in the meantime political and possibly military chaos will rule the day in the event of a "dispute". And who is to say they are not replaced with someone worse? After playing the series, you know how it turns out, but at the time you have no way of knowing what killing the entire council would do. The only certainty is that letting them die disrupts Galactic stability.
2) The Destiny Ascension is not just any ship. It crews an average of 10,000 people, has more firepower than the rest of the Asari Fleet combined, and the ship is a symbol of the Citadel Fleet. People are comforted and awe inspired when the dreadnaught flies over head. At the time you first see the ship, it is viewed as a flying fortress that no sane person would dare to take on. A mythology that is used to make the enemies of the Council races thinking twice before making a move against Citadel Space. Again, meta-gaming, you know that the Destiny Ascension's destruction means little in the grand scheme of things. At the time, however, you have no idea what will happen if Citadel Space's biggest gun gets destroyed. Maybe nothing or maybe the Batarians, Krogan, Vorcha and whatever else out there gets it in their collective heads that the Citadel is softened up and it's time for the killing blow. You don't know. The only certainty is that letting the Destiny Ascension be destroyed disrupts Galactic stability.
You are a Spectre. Maintaining the balance is the job description. Most of the "grey area" decisions you make in the series can be put through this lens. Spare the Rachni Queen or kill her? Save the council or don't? Rewrite the Geth heretics or destroy them? Save the Collector base and hand it over to Cerberus or destroy it? Cure the Genophage or sabotage it?
Instead of asking if a decision is "right", ask if this decision will disrupt galactic stability.
That's the job.
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Post by themikefest on May 25, 2019 11:30:42 GMT
It's also the job of the commander of the destiny to keep the council from harm. She failed to do that by keeping the destiny in the battle for no reason. She failed her duty. The decision to save or sacrifice was there to give the player another choice in the game. I would have left the decision up to Hackett since he can see the battle. Shepard has no idea how many geth ships there are or how many ships the Alliance brought with them. If I were to remake the trilogy, I would have the council always survive by having the destiny fly away from the battle taking the council to safety.
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Post by bardox on May 25, 2019 23:59:23 GMT
It's also the job of the commander of the destiny to keep the council from harm. She failed to do that by keeping the destiny in the battle for no reason. She failed her duty. The decision to save or sacrifice was there to give the player another choice in the game. I would have left the decision up to Hackett since he can see the battle. Shepard has no idea how many geth ships there are or how many ships the Alliance brought with them. If I were to remake the trilogy, I would have the council always survive by having the destiny fly away from the battle taking the council to safety. All true, but again the mythology around the Destiny Ascension is that it's invincible. The idea that it could be defeated would not enter their minds. From that perspective, it makes sense (deluded as it is) for the Destiny Ascension to remain in the battle AND house the council. This is what happens when you believe your own propaganda. It would make more tactical sense for the council to have a private shuttle with FTL capability on standby in case of attack. As soon as the alarms sound, they are immediately evacuated to a bunker on an asteroid/moon/planet in a near by star system or pull a Geth move and have a secret uncharted station in interstellar space for the council to hold up. But that's not what they have. As for Hackett, his silence at the time indicates where he stood on saving the Destiny Ascension or letting it be destroyed. He doesn't object to saving the ship or abandoning it. I suppose it breaks down to the cold calculus of war. Sacrifice 20 Turain cruises and 8 Alliance frigates with a combined crew size of around 8,000 to save one ship with a crew of 10,000. OR sacrifice the dreadnaught to reserve your smaller ships. But then, the purpose of smaller ships in a flotilla is to protect the heavy. Every aircraft Carrier sails with a battle group whose purpose is to protect the carrier and sacrifice themselves if need be. Ultimately, is it worth it? I don't know. From Hackett's silences I assume he doesn't either. As the first Human Spectre, it's Shepard's call and he backs your play. Metagaming... I think it's only a difference of 30 or 40 war asset points and some positive or negative views towards humanity. In the macro, this "choice" doesn't really matter. in the micro, do you kill 8,000 or 10,000?
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Post by Noxluxe on May 26, 2019 20:44:31 GMT
Instead of asking if a decision is "right", ask if this decision will disrupt galactic stability. That's the job. I'd agree for most of the small-scope decisions. For the decision of whether or not to let the Council die however, even in terms of maintaining galactic stability, I have a hard time seeing the Destiny Acension as a symbol and the Council as stabilizing influences outweighing the potential risk of the Mass Relays being shut down and the Reapers invading because every possible gun wasn't trained on Sovereign when it attacked.
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Post by bardox on May 26, 2019 22:24:30 GMT
Instead of asking if a decision is "right", ask if this decision will disrupt galactic stability. That's the job. I'd agree for most of the small-scope decisions. For the decision of whether or not to let the Council die however, even in terms of maintaining galactic stability, I have a hard time seeing the Destiny Acension as a symbol and the Council as stabilizing influences outweighing the potential risk of the Mass Relays being shut down and the Reapers invading because every possible gun wasn't trained on Sovereign when it attacked. You and I don't live in the MEU. The NPCs revere that ship. Just look at the way the crew reacts when you pull into the Citadel for the first time and see the Destiny Ascension fly by. Consider it like this... You have a militia armed with hand guns, but one of you has a Bazooka. Your target is a fully armored Humvee with a minigun on top... The first target the enemy will have is the person with the bazooka.... there is a reason for that... That person is the only one with a weapon worth being worried about. The only reason the Alliance and Turian ships damage Sovereign at all is because it's barriers drop. How destroying robo-Saren does that, I still don't understand, but fine. Before the barriers are down, their weapons are useless. The Ascension boasts to have more raw fire power than the rest of the Asari fleet combined. Even Ashley says about the Destiny Ascension, "Look at that monster. It's main gun could rip through the barriers on any ship in the Alliance fleet." If true, the Destiny Ascension may be the only ship (at the time) capable of doing any damage to a Reaper Capital ship. There is a reason Sovereign doesn't move in until the Destiny Ascension is in retreat from the Geth.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 22:59:01 GMT
It's also the job of the commander of the destiny to keep the council from harm. She failed to do that by keeping the destiny in the battle for no reason. She failed her duty. The decision to save or sacrifice was there to give the player another choice in the game. I would have left the decision up to Hackett since he can see the battle. Shepard has no idea how many geth ships there are or how many ships the Alliance brought with them. If I were to remake the trilogy, I would have the council always survive by having the destiny fly away from the battle taking the council to safety. I would have the Council escape on a small, less conspicuous ship... one that is very fast and maneuverable... one more like Normandy (but obviously mpt Normandy itself since it is not yet there when the Council is evacuated). I would have the DA, pride of the Asari fleet, heavily involved in the battle and clearly in trouble despite its superior firepower. Joker could have a plan specific to taking heat of DA and saving her; but it puts Normandy itself at greater risk. The decision would be weighing the value of the personally known, crew aboard Normandy against the vastly larger crew of DA. To avoid fan outrage about sacrificing actual squad mates, they could rewrite Ilos in such as way that all the squad are involved in that attack in some way... with all but the two final squad mates being left on Ilos. Rather than ending the game with Shepard picking a new Council, Normandy returns to Ilos to collect the rest of the crew and Sehpard gets a brief chance to ask Vigil more questions about the Reapers as Vigil shuts down completely.
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Post by burningcherry on May 26, 2019 23:11:55 GMT
Learned about this recently, looks important.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 26, 2019 23:14:07 GMT
I'd agree for most of the small-scope decisions. For the decision of whether or not to let the Council die however, even in terms of maintaining galactic stability, I have a hard time seeing the Destiny Acension as a symbol and the Council as stabilizing influences outweighing the potential risk of the Mass Relays being shut down and the Reapers invading because every possible gun wasn't trained on Sovereign when it attacked. You and I don't live in the MEU. The NPCs revere that ship. Just look at the way the crew reacts when you pull into the Citadel for the first time and see the Destiny Ascension fly by. Consider it like this... You have a militia armed with hand guns, but one of you has a Bazooka. Your target is a fully armored Humvee with a minigun on top... The first target the enemy will have is the person with the bazooka.... there is a reason for that... That person is the only one with a weapon worth being worried about. The only reason the Alliance and Turian ships damage Sovereign at all is because it's barriers drop. How destroying robo-Saren does that, I still don't understand, but fine. Before the barriers are down, their weapons are useless. The Ascension boasts to have more raw fire power than the rest of the Asari fleet combined. Even Ashley says about the Destiny Ascension, "Look at that monster. It's main gun could rip through the barriers on any ship in the Alliance fleet." If true, the Destiny Ascension may be the only ship (at the time) capable of doing any damage to a Reaper Capital ship. There is a reason Sovereign doesn't move in until the Destiny Ascension is in retreat from the Geth. Maybe, but that's mostly speculation and headcanon on your part. When Shepard is landed with the choice of how to direct the fleet, it isn't framed as "divert some fighters to free up the Destiny Acension for further assault on Sovereign", it's framed as "The Destiny Acension is about to be blown to pieces, divert firepower away from Sovereign to protect its retreat". In the latter situation, which is the one Shepard is in, diverting ships away from the counterattack on Sovereign directly increases the likelihood that Sovereign gets through and kickstarts the Reaper invasion, simply to protect one big ship and three replaceable politicians. The Reapers invading would be immeasurably worse for the galaxy than the Destiny Acension and the Council being lost in battle. Thus, it's more important to focus every possible resource to prevent that from happening than it is to perfectly preserve galactic balance and morale in the happy event that we beat Sovereign anyway. At least to my mind. And I've seen the Sphinx with my own eyes, and had a reaction not unlike Kaiden's and Ashley's upon seeing the Destiny Acension. It's one of the few remaining clues to who our ancestors were and what they were capable of, and represents a mystery that sits at the heart of what it truly means to be a human being on this planet. And if there was even a tenth of a percent of chance that grounding it to rubble would help protect humanity from annihilation, I'd be on my way to Egypt with a bag of dynamite right now.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on May 26, 2019 23:18:02 GMT
Learned about this recently, looks important.
Where is this from and why is it dated 2010?
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