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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 15:55:58 GMT
I've felt some misconceptions about the Council in ME1 in the previous thread, with a lingering suggestion that they were always idiots. I believe that a detailed explanation is needed, as most players don't even realize the facts I'm about to put forward, not to mention drawing conclusions. So, let us analyze the second meeting Shepard has with the Council, that one during which Shepard is nomineed a Spectre and Saren is revoked. The first thing that can seem odd is that Saren is not on the line, as opposed to the first meeting. In effect, he can't defend himself. The Council has already shown that they can contact him on demand – and even if they couldn't, they dictate the terms here and if they want him to be present to defend himself, they would postpone the meeting until Saren can be contacted. In short, if the Council wanted Saren to be at the meeting, he would be. This means that they didn't want it for some reason or didn't care; it's surely easier to believe the second explanation. Next thing happening after the recording is played is the turian Councillor saying "this evidence is irrefutable". Referring to a fucking audio file that could very well have been forged, especially by a quarian. Even if the geth authenticate all their files in an unforgeable way, he didn't even had the occasion to analyze it, he just listened to it and accepted as an "irrefutable evidence". Weird and incomprehensible, especially given that he was never inclined to trust Shepard about anything. But he says one more sentence, where he simply announces that Saren is revoked, and everything becomes clear in an instant. To understand why, we need to go back to ME: Revelation, specifically to the human Ambassador's second meeting with the Council. Later during the meeting, he speaks about Saren being revoked in past tense, which makes it clear that the decision is already in effect at that point. At this moment, we know that Saren's revocation was already settled when the meeting even started. Based on what, we may learn from what happens next. The asari Councillor recognizes Benezia's voice. What was the chance that she ever heard that voice, remembered it and was able to tell from any asari who could have been with Saren at the moment? Or rather, how influential Benezia would have to be for this to happen? The asari society is vast, probably comprised of hundreds of billions of individuals. A typical politician today would not probably remember the voices of all presidents and major spiritual leaders on Earth, not to mention being sure whose voice they hear. In comparison, Benezia would have to have billions of followers to be influential enough for the sounding of her voice to occupy place in the Councillor's memory. And even then, she couldn't be 95% sure that it's indeed Benezia and not any other asari with a similar voice. IMO the simplest explanation is that she knew about Benezia's dealing through the matriarch mafia sources and this is where all the the incriminating evidence against Saren comes from. Some matriarchs learned that Benezia is with Saren doing bad things, pinged the Councillor about this and this was enough to prosecute him. The salarian Councillor is silent to this moment, until he asks Shepard about the Reapers. The dialogue that follows proves that the Council does not actually believe Shepard's word and they rather had to have another basis for revoking Saren. What happens next is maybe not as important, but it reinforces one of my points above. Shepard asks for a Spectre status, which surprises the turian Councillor, and he initially disagrees. His reaction is almost exaggerated, to make the player sure that this matter was not brought up between the Councillors recently. After that, we observe the proper protocol for personal changes in the Spectres: the Councillors have to put their fingers, claws, whatever they have on their buttons and cast an unanimous vote. This part lacked a minute before, when they were making an identical decision, just in the other direction – or this formality was already completed before the meeting started. Short summary in Q&A form: Was the Council comprised of idiots in ME1?Not at all. Did they believe Shepard before a Reaper knocked at their roof?No. But they believed them about Saren.They had their own sources, apparently. Were they stubborn and unable to acknowledge their mistakes?No, and if they're saved, they prove it twice. So what the hell happened after ME1?Don't ask me. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 19:44:00 GMT
Much simpler explanation - Shepard and Anderson enter the meeting late. Udina has already presented the evidence to the council AND has already made the case sufficiently well enough to convince the Council to revoke Saren's status. We simply don't know how long the meeting had been going and how much arguing and analysis of the evidence was done to get them to agree on that particular point. What we here beginning with Udina's "there it is" is basically a summation reaffirming the agreement that was reached among them before Shepard and Anderson walk in.
Shepard (being rash and impatient) walks in and essentially starts speaking out of turn... without really knowing what has already gone on in the meeting.
Why would Bioware write it this way? To enable us to possibly decide that Udina was actually doing his job... and not a bad job of it... which can give the player a valid reason to alternatively decide to appoint Udina as councilor at the end of the game.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 20:00:57 GMT
Much simpler explanation - Shepard and Anderson enter the meeting late. Udina has already presented the evidence to the council AND has already made the case sufficiently well enough to convince the Council to revoke Saren's status. We simply don't know how long the meeting had been going and how much arguing and analysis of the evidence was done to get them to agree on that particular point. What we here beginning with Udina's "there it is" is basically a summation reaffirming the agreement that was reached among them before Shepard and Anderson walk in. Shepard (being rash and impatient) walks in and essentially starts speaking out of turn... without really knowing what has already gone on in the meeting. Why would Bioware write it this way? To enable us to possibly decide that Udina was actually doing his job... and not a bad job of it... which can give the player a valid reason to alternatively decide to appoint Udina as councilor at the end of the game.
Anderson was waiting for Shepard in a hearing distance from the Council and his exact words were "Udina's presenting the quarian's evidence to the Council", nothing about discussion yet. If Udina already knew that they had agreed with him, speaking to them in a rude tone in addition would only enrage them, which was not needed, and this doesn't explain why Saren is suddenly absent. Why Bioware would write is this way could be: to tell the player to choose Anderson, as Udina can be unfit for duty after that, similarly to what happened to Goyle.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 20:12:43 GMT
Whenever I replay that part, I also get the impression that, while Udina may present the evidence to the council for the first time publicly, it was forwarded to their scientists ahead of time and they verified that it's genuine (probably a bunch of salarian audio engineers went through various means of frequency analysis, artifact scans, etc.  ). It may just be my head canon but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.
My favorite depiction of the council is still in Revelation (the first novel) though, when they negotiate with Goyle. In that book, they really do come across as savvy politicians, which to me they unfortunately do not really anymore in any of the trilogy games, even ME1.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 20:29:50 GMT
Much simpler explanation - Shepard and Anderson enter the meeting late. Udina has already presented the evidence to the council AND has already made the case sufficiently well enough to convince the Council to revoke Saren's status. We simply don't know how long the meeting had been going and how much arguing and analysis of the evidence was done to get them to agree on that particular point. What we here beginning with Udina's "there it is" is basically a summation reaffirming the agreement that was reached among them before Shepard and Anderson walk in. Shepard (being rash and impatient) walks in and essentially starts speaking out of turn... without really knowing what has already gone on in the meeting. Why would Bioware write it this way? To enable us to possibly decide that Udina was actually doing his job... and not a bad job of it... which can give the player a valid reason to alternatively decide to appoint Udina as councilor at the end of the game.
Anderson was waiting for Shepard in a hearing distance from the Council and his exact words were "Udina's presenting the quarian's evidence to the Council", nothing about discussion yet. If Udina already knew that they had agreed with him, speaking to them in a rude tone in addition would only enrage them, which was not needed, and this doesn't explain why Saren is suddenly absent. Why Bioware would write is this way could be: to tell the player to choose Anderson, as Udina can be unfit for duty after that, similarly to what happened to Goyle. You can't actually hear Udina presenting the evidence to the council as you approach Anderson, so where are you getting this "within earshot" idea. Just because Anderson says Udina is presenting the evidience to the Council, doesn't indicate that the meeting hasn't been in session for awhile and that no discussion could have occurred. Shepard interrupting the meeting could have upset Udina a bit... so he reacts poorly by getting a little rude with the council.
Bioware purposely does not tell us who to choose. They write the various choice scenarios in the game so that it is somewhat logically possible to make either choice offered... that's the purpose of such a choice-based RPG, after all. It's possible to believe the Council are idiots or not and possible to believe that Udina is incompetent or not. Bioware wrote elements into the story to make either conclusion by individual players possible. That Shepard can have drawn the conclusion that Udina was doing his job OK is supported in ME3 when, if Udina is chosen, Shepard can say to Udina, "I helped put you into this position because I thought you'd be effective."
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2019 20:34:27 GMT
What happens next is maybe not as important, but it reinforces one of my points above. Shepard asks for a Spectre status, which surprises the turian Councillor, and he initially disagrees. His reaction is almost exaggerated, to make the player sure that this matter was not brought up between the Councillors recently. After that, we observe the proper protocol for personal changes in the Spectres: the Councillors have to put their fingers, claws, whatever they have on their buttons and cast an unanimous vote. This part lacked a minute before, when they were making an identical desicion, just in the other direction – or this formality was already completed before the meeting started. This is patently false. The very first thing we're aware of in the game is that Udina and the Council were discussing the idea of Shepard becoming a Spectre. There should have been no surprises here. |
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 20:59:08 GMT
You can't actually hear Udina presenting the evidence to the council as you approach Anderson, so where are you getting this "within earshot" idea. Because an entire dialogue would have to be accessible only for players who play a Shepard who waits at the door during an urgent meeting. One can believe otherwise but it's implied rather clear IMO. What happens next is maybe not as important, but it reinforces one of my points above. Shepard asks for a Spectre status, which surprises the turian Councillor, and he initially disagrees. His reaction is almost exaggerated, to make the player sure that this matter was not brought up between the Councillors recently. After that, we observe the proper protocol for personal changes in the Spectres: the Councillors have to put their fingers, claws, whatever they have on their buttons and cast an unanimous vote. This part lacked a minute before, when they were making an identical desicion, just in the other direction – or this formality was already completed before the meeting started. This is patently false. The very first thing we're aware of in the game is that Udina and the Council were discussing the idea of Shepard becoming a Spectre. There should have been no surprises here. He's shocked that this matter is brought up again after its fiasco. And even if he wasn't, the part that matters most is that he starts with trying to convince the asari to change her mind on this. My favorite depiction of the council is still in Revelation (the first novel) though, when they negotiate with Goyle. In that book, they really do come across as savvy politicians, which to me they unfortunately do not really anymore in any of the trilogy games, even ME1.
I quoted exactly this book, exactly the part where they shine most with their skills, and I'm explaining why it's still true in ME1.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 21:03:38 GMT
What happens next is maybe not as important, but it reinforces one of my points above. Shepard asks for a Spectre status, which surprises the turian Councillor, and he initially disagrees. His reaction is almost exaggerated, to make the player sure that this matter was not brought up between the Councillors recently. After that, we observe the proper protocol for personal changes in the Spectres: the Councillors have to put their fingers, claws, whatever they have on their buttons and cast an unanimous vote. This part lacked a minute before, when they were making an identical desicion, just in the other direction – or this formality was already completed before the meeting started. This is patently false. The very first thing we're aware of in the game is that Udina and the Council were discussing the idea of Shepard becoming a Spectre. There should have been no surprises here. It's also false in that dialogue can be chosen in such a way that Shepard does not actually ask to become a spectre and the Asari council suggests it as a possible solution.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 21:05:12 GMT
You can't actually hear Udina presenting the evidence to the council as you approach Anderson, so where are you getting this "within earshot" idea. Because an entire dialogue would have to be accessible only for players who play a Shepard who waits at the door during an urgent meeting. One can believe otherwise but it's implied rather clear IMO. This is patently false. The very first thing we're aware of in the game is that Udina and the Council were discussing the idea of Shepard becoming a Spectre. There should have been no surprises here. He's shocked that this matter is brought up again after its fiasco. And even if he wasn't, the part that matters most is that he starts with trying to convince the asari to change her mind on this. My favorite depiction of the council is still in Revelation (the first novel) though, when they negotiate with Goyle. In that book, they really do come across as savvy politicians, which to me they unfortunately do not really anymore in any of the trilogy games, even ME1.
I quoted exactly this book, exactly the part where they shine most with their skills, and I'm explaining why it's still true in ME1. 1) Makes no sense at all. 2) If it fits your personal head canon, then role with it... but it's vague enough that it's equally valid for me to make the opposite assumption.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 21:05:51 GMT
This is patently false. The very first thing we're aware of in the game is that Udina and the Council were discussing the idea of Shepard becoming a Spectre. There should have been no surprises here. It's also false in that dialogue can be chosen in such a way that Shepard does not actually ask to become a spectre and the Asari council suggests it as a possible solution. But not the turian. He always disagrees at first and the asari needs his permission to appoint Shepard a Spectre, which proves that the turian couldn't make the first decision alone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 21:25:21 GMT
It's also false in that dialogue can be chosen in such a way that Shepard does not actually ask to become a spectre and the Asari council suggests it as a possible solution. But not the turian. He always disagrees at first and the asari needs his permission to appoint Shepard a Spectre, which proves that the turian couldn't make the first decision alone. The turian councillor is likely the 'no" vote on humans becoming a spectre from the get go. As a fallback, the other two probably got him to agree to sending Nihilus to evaluate Shepard, in the hopes that the opinion of Nihilus (a respected Turian spectre who is more open-minded about the matter) would be enough to sway the turian. The turian councillor is still holding out at the second meeting but eventually allows the circumstances to convince him that making Shepard a spectre is necessary to catch Saren. I agree, no single councillor can effect an action, but you still have no evidence that the entire council did not agree to revoke Saren's spectre status moments before Shepard goes into the meeting. The council are clearly shown entering votes into their consoles to make Shepard a spectre. They could have just as easily entered such a vote regarding Saren moments before Shepard enters. For all we know, Saren woulc have alse been in that meeting and departed before Shepard arrived (probably in a huff because things were looking badly for him).
You also have absolutely no evidence that Shepard "stands by the door" and overhears what transpires in the meeting before he/she comes in with Anderson. In fact, it's rather clear that Shepard arrives late and goes immediately into the meeting without even stopping his/her walking... so there is absolutely no standing by the door overhearing things. Why is Shepard so late to the meeting? He/she is helping Samesh Bhatia get his wife's body back from the Alliance.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2019 21:27:19 GMT
I quoted exactly this book, exactly the part where they shine most with their skills, and I'm explaining why it's still true in ME1. Sorry, gotta admit, I skipped part of the OP.  [Reread it now though.)
My problem with them in ME1 is morerealted to when you talk to them through the Normandy comms. There is some rooky writing mistakes there. Most importnantly, the coucil members are not really politicians with an agenda, hell, they are not really characters with a personality, they are just conduits for the writer to create some drama for Shepard to respond to. Take the Rachni queen for example, no matter what you do, the turian councilor will scold you for it in the ahrshest terms, each time basically suggesting that you should have done the opposite, while the asari will always be the understanding one (the salarian doesn't really seem to have much of an opinion most of the time anyway). Then there is your Virmire briefing where for some reason, the council is on the one hand very worried enough about their spy team but on the other, they leave the matter to you and don't really care when or how you'll address it. This is obviously a gampleplay concession to allow the player to do stuff on their own apce but it still makes the council look somewhat apathetic.
Then there is the whole overreaction to ground the Normandy and just dismissing Shepard just before the endgame, after they acknowladge that Shepard was correct on everything else before.I mean, I get that at that point, they still think Saren is playing Shepard and so on, so I get why they don't want to send the fleet away but grounding the one (stealth) ship and Spectre, rather than let him/her finish what they started seems just petty, rather than logical or decisive.
Add to that that one does need a whole lot of head canon to make the early meetings make some sense (see e.g. my previous post) and I think - especially when compared to Revelation - the council does not look that great in ME1. (In ME2/3 they then fly off the rails completely but that's a different story.) I fact, the depiction of the council is one of the few complaints i have about the first ME game.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 21:48:28 GMT
But not the turian. He always disagrees at first and the asari needs his permission to appoint Shepard a Spectre, which proves that the turian couldn't make the first decision alone. The turian councillor is likely the 'no" vote on humans becoming a spectre from the get go. As a fallback, the other two probably got him to agree to sending Nihilus to evaluate Shepard, in the hopes that the opinion of Nihilus (a respected Turian spectre who is more open-minded about the matter) would be enough to sway the turian. The turian councillor is still holding out at the second meeting but eventually allows the circumstances to convince him that making Shepard a spectre is necessary to catch Saren. I agree, no single councillor can effect an action, but you still have no evidence that the entire council did not agree to revoke Saren's spectre status moments before Shepard goes into the meeting. The council are clearly shown entering votes into their consoles to make Shepard a spectre. They could have just as easily entered such a vote regarding Saren moments before Shepard enters. For all we know, Saren woulc have alse been in that meeting and departed before Shepard arrived (probably in a huff because things were looking badly for him).
Saren being there before only multiplicates questions. He would have to speak things irrelevant to the investigation the entire time and Udina would have to not to mention this event later. I have no hard proof but those two scenes are analogous and as it's an important plot point, it was probably written by Karpyshyn or under his supervision around the same time he was writing Revelation. I'm not saying that Shepard necessarily behaves this way but that a player who approaches the stairs and doesn't come close enough to Anderson to trigger a game event but just hangs around and tries to pick up voices looks exactly like this.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 14, 2019 21:51:16 GMT
Honestly the council in ME1 was reasonable and I could understand and if I wasn't shepard I would have agreed with them. Then in ME2 I lost respect for them. While I know that alot of people would deny that there were reapers and such but they could have at least started building a massive amount of ships to fight any new threat. Even if it was geth who did it there is no indication that they wouldn't attack again and having a massive fleet would help.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 22:35:18 GMT
The turian councillor is likely the 'no" vote on humans becoming a spectre from the get go. As a fallback, the other two probably got him to agree to sending Nihilus to evaluate Shepard, in the hopes that the opinion of Nihilus (a respected Turian spectre who is more open-minded about the matter) would be enough to sway the turian. The turian councillor is still holding out at the second meeting but eventually allows the circumstances to convince him that making Shepard a spectre is necessary to catch Saren. I agree, no single councillor can effect an action, but you still have no evidence that the entire council did not agree to revoke Saren's spectre status moments before Shepard goes into the meeting. The council are clearly shown entering votes into their consoles to make Shepard a spectre. They could have just as easily entered such a vote regarding Saren moments before Shepard enters. For all we know, Saren woulc have alse been in that meeting and departed before Shepard arrived (probably in a huff because things were looking badly for him).
Saren being there before only multiplicates questions. He would have to speak things irrelevant to the investigation the entire time and Udina would have to not to mention this event later. I have no hard proof but those two scenes are analogous and as it's an important plot point, it was probably written by Karpyshyn or under his supervision around the same time he was writing Revelation. I'm not saying that Shepard necessarily behaves this way but that a player who approaches the stairs and doesn't come close enough to Anderson to trigger a game event but just hangs around and tries to pick up voices looks exactly like this. A summation, by definition in legal terms, is a recap of the arguments already presented. I'm saying what we're hearing is the final part of Udina's summation, which included a replaying of the tape... not the first time the Council heard the evidence... but run with whatever you like. If you want to complicate the matter by tying it to the books, go for it. I'm quite happy just saying Shepard got delayed because he/she was helping Bhatia and we only hear the tale end of a much longer meeting. I can even imagine Anderson orginally being in the meeting... and leaving as Udina was presenting the evidence to go find Shepard... and then seeing him/her climbing the stairs so Anderson just waits there.
Nothing proves the council either idiots or not or Udina an idiot or not. What the council demands of Shepard initially is, IMO, reasonable. They won't act without evidence. They aren't about to start a war in a "neutral zone" without really, really good reason. etc. Or, it's all vague enough that people can also assume they're idiots. The thing is this is a CHOICE BASED RPG... so you can decide for yourself either way.
Governments knowing something behind closed doors and then presenting a very different scenario publicly is also not an unusual occurrence. Then again, not believing in a vision is also not that unusual. Neither position is inherently a sign of idiocy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 23:00:20 GMT
Honestly the council in ME1 was reasonable and I could understand and if I wasn't shepard I would have agreed with them. Then in ME2 I lost respect for them. While I know that alot of people would deny that there were reapers and such but they could have at least started building a massive amount of ships to fight any new threat. Even if it was geth who did it there is no indication that they wouldn't attack again and having a massive fleet would help. The Council in ME2 could be an All Human one with Udina at the head of it... a totally different government than we see in ME1. The lack of action, therefore, could theoretically, all be on Udina's head at that point.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 14, 2019 23:00:31 GMT
If you want to complicate the matter by tying it to the books, go for it. I believe that this explanation actually simplifies things, as it explains many oddities at once with a not unreasonable assumption and it doesn't raise many additional questions. The book is already tied to the game, as it was written by the game's lead writer during the game's development and serves as a groundwork for it. Yes but the two options don't have to be equally justified and it's important to know arguments for both. And I'm exactly arguing that those two things take place, especially the first one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 23:18:06 GMT
If you want to complicate the matter by tying it to the books, go for it. I believe that this explanation actually simplifies things, as it explains many oddities at once with a not unreasonable assumption and it doesn't raise many additional questions. The book is already tied to the game, as it was written by the game's lead writer during the game's development and serves as a groundwork for it. Yes but the two options don't have to be equally justified and it's important to know arguments for both. And I'm exactly arguing that those two things take place, especially the first one. Still, the book is not a mandatory part of the game... so your explanation complicates the matter for anyone who doesn't read the books. As I've said multiple times, if it works for you... great. I'm fine with how it works without it... just with a late arrival to the meeting and I disagree that raises all those additional questions you seem to think it does. It's quite possible for people to not assume the council are idiots without having read the books. So, since I wasn't refuting your argument in the first place... just offering a "simpler" explanation not dependent on the book... can we please cease and desist now?
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 15, 2019 21:42:39 GMT
Honestly the council in ME1 was reasonable and I could understand and if I wasn't shepard I would have agreed with them. Then in ME2 I lost respect for them. While I know that alot of people would deny that there were reapers and such but they could have at least started building a massive amount of ships to fight any new threat. Even if it was geth who did it there is no indication that they wouldn't attack again and having a massive fleet would help. The Council in ME2 could be an All Human one with Udina at the head of it... a totally different government than we see in ME1. The lack of action, therefore, could theoretically, all be on Udina's head at that point. Is that the renegade shep that lets the council die? Also uldina is a dick and I took great enjoyment in killing him
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 23, 2019 15:34:19 GMT
At this moment, we know that Saren's revocation was already settled when the meeting even started. Based on what, we may learn from what happens next. That's an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption nonetheless. During the meeting, after the evidence is provided, I recall the Councilors saying he WILL be stripped of his status. They could very well do that right then and there with the press of a few buttons. That would make more sense. Keeping in mind that this is the result of an audio file, I think we need to be willing to accept some conveniences for the plot. I've seen it pointed out before that a voice clip really shouldn't be enough and that's true, but this is a plot in a video-game and it needs to get moving. It doesn't need to make perfect sense when examined closely as long as it gets the idea across; Saren is a traitor, and we have proof. If the Council was on to Saren then why not allow the C-Sec investigation full access? Why not give humanity its bone and denounce him at the first meeting? It makes more sense to me that the Council didn't care because as long as humanity didn't do anything rash then the attack on Eden Prime was politically beneficial to them. It made humanity look weak and denied them access to a Prothean beacon, ensuring instead that it fell into the hands of a loyal Council agent. It's my opinion that the Council was totally fine with Saren attacking a human world as long as he was smart about it and didn't start a war. Anything that weakens humanity is good for the Council because it gives the Council a stronger hand in bargaining with humanity as it seeks to join their ranks. What happens next is maybe not as important, but it reinforces one of my points above. Shepard asks for a Spectre status, which surprises the turian Councillor, and he initially disagrees. His reaction is almost exaggerated, to make the player sure that this matter was not brought up between the Councillors recently. After that, we observe the proper protocol for personal changes in the Spectres: the Councillors have to put their fingers, claws, whatever they have on their buttons and cast an unanimous vote. This part lacked a minute before, when they were making an identical decision, just in the other direction – or this formality was already completed before the meeting started. I agree that the Councilors in ME1 aren't stupid. I don't think they are stupid to disbelieve in the Reapers in ME2. Most people have a poor concept of what "proof" is and even the events of ME1 don't prove the Reaper threat. The Council is a den of schemers.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 23, 2019 15:37:55 GMT
Take the Rachni queen for example, no matter what you do, the turian councilor will scold you for it in the ahrshest terms, That's actually realistic albeit it might be an accident. Sometimes you cannot please people no matter what you do and the rachni situation is one such case. No matter what you do her existence rocks the status-quo. If you release her you may very well have set in motion events that could drastically shape the galaxy in a few generations and possibly lead to billions of deaths. If you kill her, then you'v committed a grave crime by wiping out the last survivor of a sentient race, which is a grave crime in Council Space. If, theoretically, you did nothing, then you'd be pushing even more of that burden onto the Council and they certainly wouldn't like that. After all, Spectres are supposed to make the hard choices... but that doesn't mean your boss has to like any of the choices you make.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 23, 2019 16:32:19 GMT
Yes but that kind of immature and petty behavior without actually having a stance on the subject matter is exactly what makes the turian councilor seem incompetent as a leader and high ranking politician.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 25, 2019 0:39:51 GMT
At this moment, we know that Saren's revocation was already settled when the meeting even started. Based on what, we may learn from what happens next. That's an assumption, a reasonable one, but an assumption nonetheless. During the meeting, after the evidence is provided, I recall the Councilors saying he WILL be stripped of his status. They could very well do that right then and there with the press of a few buttons. That would make more sense. Keeping in mind that this is the result of an audio file, I think we need to be willing to accept some conveniences for the plot. I've seen it pointed out before that a voice clip really shouldn't be enough and that's true, but this is a plot in a video-game and it needs to get moving. It doesn't need to make perfect sense when examined closely as long as it gets the idea across; Saren is a traitor, and we have proof. Future tense use doesn't disprove anything, the asari councillor used it when speaking to Goyle either. Of course you can understand this situation as just the plot needing to go forward, but I argue that there's a really consistent explanation. It's probable that they didn't do a deliberate investigation. As I said, my bet is that the matriarchs spied on Benezia and learned something by accident. Eden Prime was a test for Shepard before joining the Spectres. That the Council would try to make a war crime slip to weaken humanity but allowed for a human Spectre test barely holds together. They are stupid post-ME1 because they change their minds for no reason (they believe in the Reapers if you save them).
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 25, 2019 1:59:09 GMT
They are stupid post-ME1 because they change their minds for no reason (they believe in the Reapers if you save them). Do they? In ME2 they don't believe in the Reapers when I save them. A new Council won't even acknowledge you. Yes, Citadel DLC mentions the Reapers but does that change if they ME1 Council dies? |
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 25, 2019 2:32:14 GMT
It's probable that they didn't do a deliberate investigation. As I said, my bet is that the matriarchs spied on Benezia and learned something by accident. Eden Prime was a test for Shepard before joining the Spectres. That the Council would try to make a war crime slip to weaken humanity but allowed for a human Spectre test barely holds together. Eden Prime was intended to be the first of many missions. I believe an examination of the Council's motives, interests, and history, paints a believable enough picture. Not that I don't think your explanation is impossible. Maybe it did happen that way, but there is no evidence for it. You're just filling in the blanks. To be fair, so am I. No, they're not stupid. They've just gotten over the initial shock of the attack and had the time to think things out. They also by this point now have other pressures on them which encourage them to sweep the matter under the rug. Once again, Shepard never had proof of a Reaper armada. I think the Council makes a mistake in not investigating the matter further, but that's laziness, not stupidity. These people are politicians. Yes but that kind of immature and petty behavior without actually having a stance on the actualy issue is exactly what makes the turian councilor seem incompetent as a leader and high ranking politician. Can't take the heat get a different job.
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