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Post by dragontartare on Aug 14, 2016 19:47:33 GMT
I'd imagine Tevinter is hell on Thedas for those who are enslaved there. At least, for the slaves who know what it is to lose their freedom. Although, then you have those like Orana who don't realize how bad they have it, and I think even Fenris said he initially didn't realize how horrible his situation was. (I could be remembering wrong, though.) Anyway, I just registered here to share in the Fenris love  My Hawke has a rivalmance with him, and I want to reiterate that it doesn't have to mean being cruel to Fenris. My Hawke is a pro-mage warrior with an aggressive personality, but I choose the diplomatic options with Fenris for the most part. He gets in her face more than she gets in his, honestly. Incidentally, I love Fenris's relationship with Bethany. Not only is it sweet, but it also shows that he's more open to accepting mages than he thinks he is.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 17, 2016 15:04:18 GMT
Does rivalmance change something major when compared to normal romance on friendly terms ? I have never been with Fenris on rival relations. Even on my mage Theresa Hawke he was friend. I just registered because this is the last place where I can speak free about DA II without any drama queens who whime how bad the game was becaue "It's not Origins waah". Yeah Fenris does care about mages, he is not as hostile to mages as Qun for example is by logic. Sera in DA I was very hostile to magic, in comparision of those two Sera is big hater. I loved how well written was Fenris, he was so unpredictable in game. I play on three characters which two had romance option opened with him and he was like the only one which was a mystery of what is good say to him. But romance between him and too humorous Hawke is just fantastic.  They both behaved like opposites, I swear i don't know how Fenris standed mine Eloise. He was grim serious and she was always joking.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 17, 2016 15:45:21 GMT
Does rivalmance change something major when compared to normal romance on friendly terms ? I have never been with Fenris on rival relations. Even on my mage Theresa Hawke he was friend. I just registered because this is the last place where I can speak free about DA II without any drama queens who whime how bad the game was becaue "It's not Origins waah". Yeah Fenris does care about mages, he is not as hostile to mages as Qun for example is by logic. Sera in DA I was very hostile to magic, in comparision of those two Sera is big hater. I loved how well written was Fenris, he was so unpredictable in game. I play on three characters which two had romance option opened with him and he was like the only one which was a mystery of what is good say to him. But romance between him and too humorous Hawke is just fantastic.  They both behaved like opposites, I swear i don't know how Fenris standed mine Eloise. He was grim serious and she was always joking. Fenris are more "cruel" (for example he blames Hawke after Fade-scene [Feynriel-quest, if you send Feynriel to Tevinter], and told: why had not killed Hawke Feynriel in his bed, rather s/he risks their life...), but hot, and good and creditable. After the Alone quest he don't blame mages for anything. I still think, the rival path more believable with a pro-mage Hawke.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 18, 2016 1:55:10 GMT
Does rivalmance change something major when compared to normal romance on friendly terms ? I have never been with Fenris on rival relations. Even on my mage Theresa Hawke he was friend. I just registered because this is the last place where I can speak free about DA II without any drama queens who whime how bad the game was becaue "It's not Origins waah". Yeah Fenris does care about mages, he is not as hostile to mages as Qun for example is by logic. Sera in DA I was very hostile to magic, in comparision of those two Sera is big hater. I loved how well written was Fenris, he was so unpredictable in game. I play on three characters which two had romance option opened with him and he was like the only one which was a mystery of what is good say to him. But romance between him and too humorous Hawke is just fantastic.  They both behaved like opposites, I swear i don't know how Fenris standed mine Eloise. He was grim serious and she was always joking. I have watched the friendship romance on YouTube, and in my opinion, it is almost bland compared to the rivalmance. As has been said, Fenris takes out a lot of his anger on Hawke in a rival romance, which means the romance scenes play out differently to some extent (though, I don't want to give the impression that Fenris is abusive in any way). It is, of course, up to you whether Hawke responds aggressively or otherwise. I don't want to get too spoilery, but Fenris's feelings for Hawke are still as obvious, and are still just as strong, as in a friendship romance. I agree that this is the more realistic romance for a pro-mage (but still anti-slavery) Hawke. It comes across as a rivalry based on frustration over differing ideologies, combined with Fenris's pain over his past, rather than rivalry based in hatred or disrespect. I actually find Fenris to be pretty funny as the game goes on, depending which companions you have with you, I suppose. I tend to take Varric almost everywhere, Bethany when given the option, and then split the time with everyone else. I see your point about, "It's not Origins, waaaaah!" as well, by the way. I just started playing Dragon Age last fall (first time owning a gaming laptop), and I almost skipped from Origins to DAI based on all the bad reviews DA 2 got. I'm so glad I decided to play it anyway, and glad to see some love for the characters here.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 20, 2016 14:42:33 GMT
Oh that's the point. Eloise - the rogue archer which romanced him - wasn't that exacly Pro-Mage. She did tranquil Feynriel for example, or let Grace and rest been taken to templars. Feynriel actually begged her to be tranquil. She hated Tevinter in general for slavery and for her sending Feynriel to them was too dangerous, especially after Marethari warning of what Dreamer is capable of. Eloise was mostly anti-slavery, she did have sympathy for mages but she was not so blinded to this cause as Anders was. I had on mage Theresa sended Feynriel to Tevinter but Fenris wasn't present, I had Isabella and Varric there so they betrayed her. Either way even with Theresa Fenris was friendly. Much more of this Inquisition reminded me on mine mage Evelyn Travelyan romance with Cullen. Relations between people "tainted" by magic and lyrium. I doubt I would have hard time with Fenris on rival. Unfortunately I won't do fourth world state so I guess I will never try out rival Fenris. PS: I Have NONE idea of why your text miracolously dissapeared from mine reply. It was there. I only cutted mine original post quoting since it was too long. @ dragontartare - I love Dragon Age II, it lately beat the hell out of any other BioWare title inclueding Mass Effect's (damn you BioWare for cutting out Javik to dlc -.-). It's actually mine favourite game from them. I love good storylines, good to rethink ideas, and when it comes to complicate situations, ideologies, questions or characters who are two sided (unlike 95% of Origins characters - all except for Zevran and little of Morrigan were there one sided). This game come close in this one matter to (surprise , surprise) Fallout New Vegas itself. I like fantasy with elves and dwarves, but for Origins I just called it for 99% of time "cheap rip-off for LotR trilogy". I was diaspointed in poor quality of writing, lack of any thoughts etc to this game. I literally throw DA O for months on my disgust and rage. I had enough of this bad writing, annoying characters after Brecillian Forrest ("I hate you, you freaking potato !" - me to Sten there) quest. I did only like Redcliffe Castle, Broken Circle and then Brecillian Forrest to that moment, and after this I just quit. I did NOT have at this point Zevran. I will clarify this here. I liked honestly only small part of Redcliffe Castle because sinister atmosphere of Connor being possessed was just new, and I loved Brecillian Forrest quest out of some magical soft touch of writing, some poetry to it. I didn't had Zevran and after come back because I really wanted to give another chance to this game - since everyone mysteriously praised it so badly - I finally got him. Easy for me to say Zevran since recruit was the only reason to keep me going on Origins to complete it 100% on all characters of mine. All three. So from entire game I only liked: Zevran Arainai, Brecillian Forrest quest, Redcliffe Castle trouble and Paragon of Her Kind story. All rest of this game inclueding music (I can't believe it was Inon Zur ! So bad, as poor as "Fallout" 3 work of his !) was landing into trash bin for me. I literally come to Origins as matter of duty only not some pleasure. Especially if Zevran is not present in any of dlc's but this terrible Oghren somehow IS I have urge to behead Oghren at once, this disgrace to dwarf kind. Or disgrace to nature itself.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 20, 2016 15:47:15 GMT
Oh that's the point. Eloise - the rogue archer which romanced him - wasn't that exacly Pro-Mage. She did tranquil Feynriel for example, or let Grace and rest been taken to templars. Feynriel actually begged her to be tranquil. She hated Tevinter in general for slavery and for her sending Feynriel to them was too dangerous, especially after Marethari warning of what Dreamer is capable of. Eloise was mostly anti-slavery, she did have sympathy for mages but she was not so blinded to this cause as Anders was. I had on mage Theresa sended Feynriel to Tevinter but Fenris wasn't present, I had Isabella and Varric there so they betrayed her. Either way even with Theresa Fenris was friendly. Much more of this Inquisition reminded me on mine mage Evelyn Travelyan romance with Cullen. Relations between people "tainted" by magic and lyrium. I doubt I would have hard time with Fenris on rival. Unfortunately I won't do fourth world state so I guess I will never try out rival Fenris. PS: I Have NONE idea of why your text miracolously dissapeared from mine reply. It was there. I only cutted mine original post quoting since it was too long. I have done a friendship romance with Fenris, was good, and ultimately believable, but my all Hawke is pro-mage (hard-line, Anders-like!), then never send to the Circle (especially Kirkwall's Circle) one poor mage (except Idunna, she is a cultist bitch). The tranquility the most cruel thing in the Thedas: just see Karl... If anyone tortured, then able to beg for death, only to be over. I never listened Feynriel's ask for the tranquility in his Nightmare. He was not himself. I mostly bring Fenris with me everywhere in romance, including Feynriel's quest. In the friendship path Fenris just told: he hoped that Feynriel deserves the grace, what he received. He more understanding in the friendship path, but at the end (after the Alone quest) he still blame the magic/mages for all... (Not mentioned: maybe he more kind with mage Hawke, but still don't understand his/her goals, then the rivalry is more creditable.) If you want to try: The rivalry path are not hard (I also thought that, before I tried). A pro-mage Hawke's position is so different from the position of Fenris, that the rivalry is natural. I know, it's not a popular way, because Fenris is not "nice", but you can freed him, you can care for him, you don't need to hurt him. For example you can choose the answer: "Fenris is not a slave!" and at Oriana: "I will pay her", but you need to prepare, that you will receive much friendship points on this way, despite I think this is the only way if you want a creditable rivalry romance!. However you must defend your pro-mage viewpoint, and always to proclaim that the freedom of the mages important for you (at the Gallows for example, and when you speak with Cullen). Summary you need a little more tactic on this way (the quests and the gifts order is very important), but worth it – with a promage Hawke.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 20, 2016 16:09:20 GMT
Catilina - Feynriel begged her so she would tranquil him. She did this on his wish. And Grace ? Really, Alain escaped from them - he was so scared that he wanted to return to templars. Then what .. Decimus. Not only Alain testify that he believed that Decimus burnt down Circle in Starkhaven - but also once Eloise reached him then what ? Decimus is a blood mage. What else he could be ... and he wants to kill everyone in sight. He was a mad dog which was in dire need to slay. On Eloise once I killed Decimus, Grace come up with an idea of free them - Kill Thrask. Yes, because I definately want murder someone out of their own buisness, not only did they cooperate with blood mage, but also some of them actually were blood mages. Well Eloise killed Idunna. On Theresa I believe I sent her to Circle. At Eloise I did had Fenris. Unfortunately he must apologized her for this Pride Deamon thing ... so at begging of Feynriel he was not present. Feynriel WAS himself. It was him. Him realizing that this is the Fade - a place where he has powers, and that every demon wants him to be possesed. He was scared and that's why he was begging to end this, so he won't become an abomination if Hawke will not be around this time to save him. This ending to this quest you get when you warn Feynriel over and over about that Marethari and father were not real only demons in disguses. I had three characters and on Eloise only he begged for tranquility, on rest two Theresa and Christian he gone to Tevinter. I understood Fenris on every one of friendship relation. He was not mage hater, he was questionating magic in general. A person who knew that magic may be powerfull but it also leads to misusages like blood magic sacrifaces. He was a opposition to both Merrill and Anders views. Where Anders was "Mages must be free !" and Merrill was like "Blood Magic is not guilty of crimes with it !" I never questionated Fenris relation Hawke with friendship mark, he on Theresa was aware that she was mage, he did put a remarks of worry to it, or questionating of her powers but overall he just trusted her as person - not a mage. That's why Cullen reminded me this in DA:I. Ah yes "Fenris is free man !" was always used by me since all mine Hawke hated idea of slavery. I thought "Slaves are usefull" would piss him off during his loyalty ... yeah I guess you speak in general about Theresa who actually was pro-Mage freedom. And yet she romanced Fenris on friendship too, before switching to Anders what caused chaotic hatred upgrade in banters of those two. PS: Grace didn't even deserve me doing anything to not give her to templars. Even on Christian where I did lie to templars so she would escape with others, at Act 3 she either way proved how useless and corrupted she is when she kiddnapped Isabela. Like really, you help her and that's the reward. How about no. Begone slutty Grace to Circle.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 20, 2016 16:45:48 GMT
Catilina - Feynriel begged her so she would tranquil him. She did this on his wish. And Grace ? Really, Alain escaped from them - he was so scared that he wanted to return to templars. Then what .. Decimus. Not only Alain testify that he believed that Decimus burnt down Circle in Starkhaven - but also once Eloise reached him then what ? Decimus is a blood mage. What else he could be ... and he wants to kill everyone in sight. He was a mad dog which was in dire need to slay. On Eloise once I killed Decimus, Grace come up with an idea of free them - Kill Thrask. Yes, because I definately want murder someone out of their own buisness, not only did they cooperate with blood mage, but also some of them actually were blood mages. Well Eloise killed Idunna. On Theresa I believe I sent her to Circle. At Eloise I did had Fenris. Unfortunately he must apologized her for this Pride Deamon thing ... so at begging of Feynriel he was not present. Feynriel WAS himself. It was him. Him realizing that this is the Fade - a place where he has powers, and that every demon wants him to be possesed. He was scared and that's why he was begging to end this, so he won't become an abomination if Hawke will not be around this time to save him. This ending to this quest you get when you warn Feynriel over and over about that Marethari and father were not real only demons in disguses. I had three characters and on Eloise only he begged for tranquility, on rest two Theresa and Christian he gone to Tevinter. I understood Fenris on every one of friendship relation. He was not mage hater, he was questionating magic in general. A person who knew that magic may be powerfull but it also leads to misusages like blood magic sacrifaces. He was a opposition to both Merrill and Anders views. Where Anders was "Mages must be free !" and Merrill was like "Blood Magic is not guilty of crimes with it !" I never questionated Fenris relation Hawke with friendship mark, he on Theresa was aware that she was mage, he did put a remarks of worry to it, or questionating of her powers but overall he just trusted her as person - not a mage. That's why Cullen reminded me this in DA:I. Ah yes "Fenris is free man !" was always used by me since all mine Hawke hated idea of slavery. I thought "Slaves are usefull" would piss him off during his loyalty ... yeah I guess you speak in general about Theresa who actually was pro-Mage freedom. And yet she romanced Fenris on friendship too, before switching to Anders what caused chaotic hatred upgrade in banters of those two. Yes, Fenriel begged for tranquility, because he was terrified. Feynriel happy, when you told him: he can do it. Can exist that situation, in what you beg for the death, just to be over. This is not meant you WANT to die. The tranquility is extremely cruel punishment, then this useable only against the extreme cruel person. But these are not really worth arguing about Circle-system in a Fenris topic, I think. I just add to this: that in my scenario Fenris after a certain time will be able recognizes that freedom is important for everyone.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 20, 2016 17:17:01 GMT
@ Catilina - He should be terrified. he is not ready for his own power. He barely could notice that this is not reality. This is not Marethari and neither Vincenzo. He was foolishly believing that the fade is safe for him. While it was not. As you say Feynriel is not him while scared. I can say on contrary - Feynriel is not himself when he is happy and in euphoria. He does not think rationally about dangers of his power. Remember Olivia ? How much did it take for her to turn into abomination. And yet she was far less powerfull than Feynriel. What about Tevinter ? I doubt Magisters there with Dreamer mage would not use him as weapon to silence their enemies. Soon Feynriel would fell into machinery which demands magical ability of being used and abused to the end. In his case - do job with your Dreamer abilities. In this case I may believe that one day Feynriel would face Solas in Fade. And that alone does not bring happy news for Feynriel. Tranquility is not death but close. But to be truly free from demons Feynriel knew it was the only solution which was available right there right here. No other option. So there you have. Karl was tranquiled against his wishes, however - I guess it was Wynne - mentioned that in Circle ware mages who demanded for wish tranquility because they thought it was better to be tranquiled and not making yourself a danger to others, than to be still mage with weak will (like Feynriel had)whom are the easiest pray for demons to be possessed. Feynriel was tranquil on wish. On his sane wish. He was himself, but the only change is that he was made AWARE that the Fade is fullfilled with dangers for him as well he may because of this become a danger for everyone else outside the Fade.
Fenris actually gain approval from this sort of dealing with Feynriel. I guess hatred to Tevinter was just too big for him and Eloise. I did hate how pitiful was his sister Varania in loyalty. I only stopped him on Eloise from killing her was just because he did not deserve to be sister-killer. At least Varric was supportive to this. Anyone think Fenris will reappear in Dragon Age IV - if that game will ever come out ? I heared that he was suppose to appear in some comic but I am not sure if it's true.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 20, 2016 19:34:41 GMT
@ Catilina - He should be terrified. he is not ready for his own power. He barely could notice that this is not reality. This is not Marethari and neither Vincenzo. He was foolishly believing that the fade is safe for him. While it was not. As you say Feynriel is not him while scared. I can say on contrary - Feynriel is not himself when he is happy and in euphoria. He does not think rationally about dangers of his power. What about Tevinter ? I doubt Magisters there with Dreamer mage would not use him as weapon to silence their enemies. Soon Feynriel would fell into machinery which demands magical ability of being used and abused to the end. In his case - do job with your Dreamer abilities. [...] And if he is not ready for his power yet, we must make sure that he is never to be able to to learn his power, and lose all, what he feel and think about the world. "All the color, all the music in the world are gone! I'd gladly give up my magic, but this... I never be whole again! Please, kill me, before I forget again!" (Karl Thekla) Feynriel was himself, when he was terrified, but was not himself, when he freed from fright, regained control of himself and became happy... okay.... or wait! This is not too logical. Let us not lose sight of that he already received experience from Fade and demons, then he already able to control it. What about Tevinter? Tevinter better than tranquility and better than the death. Do not forget: Fenris also choose the slavery, instead of the death! "Na via lerno victoria!" The tranquility = death. If you live, you can fight, if you die (tranquil), you can't. Of course it's a possibility, but please, don't justify with that "Feynriel begged for it".
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 20, 2016 21:28:14 GMT
Oh that's the point. Eloise - the rogue archer which romanced him - wasn't that exacly Pro-Mage. She did tranquil Feynriel for example, or let Grace and rest been taken to templars. Feynriel actually begged her to be tranquil. She hated Tevinter in general for slavery and for her sending Feynriel to them was too dangerous, especially after Marethari warning of what Dreamer is capable of. Eloise was mostly anti-slavery, she did have sympathy for mages but she was not so blinded to this cause as Anders was. I had on mage Theresa sended Feynriel to Tevinter but Fenris wasn't present, I had Isabella and Varric there so they betrayed her. Either way even with Theresa Fenris was friendly. Much more of this Inquisition reminded me on mine mage Evelyn Travelyan romance with Cullen. Relations between people "tainted" by magic and lyrium. I doubt I would have hard time with Fenris on rival. Unfortunately I won't do fourth world state so I guess I will never try out rival Fenris. PS: I Have NONE idea of why your text miracolously dissapeared from mine reply. It was there. I only cutted mine original post quoting since it was too long. @ dragontartare - I love Dragon Age II, it lately beat the hell out of any other BioWare title inclueding Mass Effect's (damn you BioWare for cutting out Javik to dlc -.-). It's actually mine favourite game from them. I love good storylines, good to rethink ideas, and when it comes to complicate situations, ideologies, questions or characters who are two sided (unlike 95% of Origins characters - all except for Zevran and little of Morrigan were there one sided). This game come close in this one matter to (surprise , surprise) Fallout New Vegas itself. I like fantasy with elves and dwarves, but for Origins I just called it for 99% of time "cheap rip-off for LotR trilogy". I was diaspointed in poor quality of writing, lack of any thoughts etc to this game. I literally throw DA O for months on my disgust and rage. I had enough of this bad writing, annoying characters after Brecillian Forrest ("I hate you, you freaking potato !" - me to Sten there) quest. I did only like Redcliffe Castle, Broken Circle and then Brecillian Forrest to that moment, and after this I just quit. I did NOT have at this point Zevran. I will clarify this here. I liked honestly only small part of Redcliffe Castle because sinister atmosphere of Connor being possessed was just new, and I loved Brecillian Forrest quest out of some magical soft touch of writing, some poetry to it. I didn't had Zevran and after come back because I really wanted to give another chance to this game - since everyone mysteriously praised it so badly - I finally got him. Easy for me to say Zevran since recruit was the only reason to keep me going on Origins to complete it 100% on all characters of mine. All three. So from entire game I only liked: Zevran Arainai, Brecillian Forrest quest, Redcliffe Castle trouble and Paragon of Her Kind story. All rest of this game inclueding music (I can't believe it was Inon Zur ! So bad, as poor as "Fallout" 3 work of his !) was landing into trash bin for me. I literally come to Origins as matter of duty only not some pleasure. Especially if Zevran is not present in any of dlc's but this terrible Oghren somehow IS I have urge to behead Oghren at once, this disgrace to dwarf kind. Or disgrace to nature itself. I enjoyed DAO for the most part, because it brought with it a sense of nostalgia from Neverwinter Nights. I've only played it once, though. I had fun with the romance (Zevran), and with some of the quests, especially the large-scale battles, but others felt so tedious. I've actually installed a mod to bypass most of the fade section in case I decide to play again. I think DA2 and DAI have spoiled me in terms of protagonists feeling so real and alive. I feel very little for my Warden, whereas I am very attached to Hawke and my Inquisitors. I haven't played Mass Effect yet, so I can't comment on that comparison. I would love to see a Fenris appearance in DA4, especially if a romanced Hawke shows up, too. That is, as long as one of them doesn't have to die during the quest, because I couldn't bring myself to kill either one. I think it would be really cool to play as an elven double-agent in DA4, with Fenris in perhaps an advisory role, or as an agent in the fight against Fen'Harel (because there's no way he would support a plot to tear down the veil, and I hope the writers wouldn't change that). Maybe the PC could receive a few quests from him, or he could have a short quest line like Hawke did in DAI. And uh...Feynriel, since you both are discussing him? My Hawke sent him to Tevinter for training. I agree that begging for death didn't mean he actually wanted to die, just that he wanted his suffering to end. Going to Tevinter will accomplish that without ending his life.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 21, 2016 21:05:42 GMT
@ Catilina - He should be terrified. he is not ready for his own power. He barely could notice that this is not reality. This is not Marethari and neither Vincenzo. He was foolishly believing that the fade is safe for him. While it was not. As you say Feynriel is not him while scared. I can say on contrary - Feynriel is not himself when he is happy and in euphoria. He does not think rationally about dangers of his power. What about Tevinter ? I doubt Magisters there with Dreamer mage would not use him as weapon to silence their enemies. Soon Feynriel would fell into machinery which demands magical ability of being used and abused to the end. In his case - do job with your Dreamer abilities. [...] And if he is not ready for his power yet, we must make sure that he is never to be able to to learn his power, and lose all, what he feel and think about the world. "All the color, all the music in the world are gone! I'd gladly give up my magic, but this... I never be whole again! Please, kill me, before I forget again!" (Karl Thekla) Feynriel was himself, when he was terrified, but was not himself, when he freed from fright, regained control of himself and became happy... okay.... or wait! This is not too logical. Let us not lose sight of that he already received experience from Fade and demons, then he already able to control it. What about Tevinter? Tevinter better than tranquility and better than the death. Do not forget: Fenris also choose the slavery, instead of the death! "Na via lerno victoria!" The tranquility = death. If you live, you can fight, if you die (tranquil), you can't. Of course it's a possibility, but please, don't justify with that "Feynriel begged for it". I told you on both parts he is barely "himself'. On happy he is fulfilled with euphoria and does not think rationally, on contrary when in fear he is also not "himself" since he is afraid of his own abilities. Using term "not himself" is dangerous. I said to you that too happy Feynriel is equally not trustworthy "real" Feynriel as this terrified one. So in the end both happy and terrified are on same level of sanity. Him making foolish decision to go to Tevinter to be part of misusage of magic there is as much impornant as him begging so he will be free of his own danger. So he won't one day become monster just because he was too scared or anything regarding emotions really. Monster who would tear apart such Arianni with no regret. Fenris paid for his family to be free. Not "sounds too cool I am on it". He did this out os some sort despair. He did want that Varania and their mother would be free because he thought they will be better once free. He was generally caring for his relatives well-being. Whatever Varania said in this mission must be rethought since she is giving on it also her opinion. An opinion of someone who was so moral corrupt that they would gladly sold their brother to abusive slavery just for her to get better life. Tevinter is corrupt to the core. Even Dorian makes it loud and clear in Inquisition. If son of Magister is telling you that his country is corrupt and needs to change if it want to survive then we got a serious problem. Everybody expect slave to complain about Tevinter, but Magister son himself ? Someone from tip top of society there ?? He complains ? Tevinter will either change or it will burn down. Just like Kirkwall was boiling to the end where massacre (thanks to Anders) happen. There is no other scenario. Now let me look at magisters ... Denarius - evil old rapist, Hadriana - slut who would gladly kill slaves for more power, Magister Pavus himself - too scared about Inquisition to be able to notice Corypheus danger also very eager to put in Danger of brain death his only son, this damn slaver from Origins who wanted to kill Cyrion Tabris and rest with those dumb Venatori like that Erimond ... now give them Dreamer. Nope, nothing good will come out of this. All I see is yet another death trail. Do I regret tranquil Feynriel ? No. It was on his wish after all, it wasn't Karl Thekla scenario more like this tranquil from Origins in Ferelden Circle. I will justify it. I rethink about Feynriel more than once. At the end he was very dangerous to himself and everyone else. So please do not try to tell me I am all "bad" because I think tranquility is not as bad as Anders pictures it, especially when given how dangerous someone may be. And Feynriel had weak will. Once you stepped in Fade to save him he was already almost done by one of those demons. If only one would decide to took him over then he would fall easily and become abomination. That alone makes it short recipe for huge disaster. It would be nothing compare to Olivia change. Feynriel could be doomsday tool for demon. Feynriel should NOT be compared or treated as any other mage. Karl Thekla powers were limited, and he was already trained so it was unlikely - howerer still possible - that he will become an abomination. Thekla was made unwillingly tranquil and it was used as abuse. Feynriel tranquility was his own choice, own wish, he was willing to make himself tranquil. Just like Wynne was telling about Adan ? What was this tranquil name ... And Anders already IS an abomination on his own wish. Possibility of Feynriel (untrained apostate whose power are way beyond 99% of mages) becoming an abomination was as huge as this poor Olivia or this circle girl surrounded by templars in end of act III - right over there you had Circle TRAINED mage who became an abomination. Feynriel powers were so huge that nobody in Circle or Dalish clans could help him. It was his only GUESSING that Tevinter Magisterium will help. Will have the knowledge of Somniari good enough for him to be trained. And we all know that Somniari may have been mage type known to elves, and Tevinter like always just stole this term we don't really know if stories passed by Marethari about Tevinter Dreamers were real or if she just misheard it. We already know how Dalish are wrong right at their own history. Even Tevinter was known from mixing facts and making up stories like this cursed kingdom by one of high priests story in DA I. For all I know the only reliable source of correct training for him would be Solas. And we all know how Solas treats humans thanks to Tevinter legacy ... So yeah at the end of him going to Tevinter I may expect Morinth scenario from ME 3. When all I will see is huge monstrous abomination which will be making catastrophe in Tevinter - once known as "Feynriel". Yeah, I am pessimisst.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 21, 2016 21:43:15 GMT
I not speak about what was Fenris reason to became a slave. I know that. I said that he rejects the death as an opportunity. A lot of people lives in a corrupt country (Kirkwall also corrupt, as Tevinter), but still LIVES, and probably not as a zombie. Because YES, the tranquility is BAD. This is not "just Anders' lunatic vision".* Feynriel will be able to control himself, he know what dangerous his talent, and not fool. As I said: he already have experience with the fade's demons, and he got some study from the elves. Yes, he can be dangerous, but can be also useful. Do not tell me, that better to live as a zombie than live in Tevinter. (True, if you are a zombie without independent thought, and you forget, what is the feel something, maybe no matter, than you are a zombie ... well, I would rather not think about it.) But as I said (let me quote myself): "Of course it's a possibility, but please, don't justify with that 'Feynriel begged for it'". ___ *When I played with DA:O first (few years ago) with Surana, I found the Ferelden(!) Circle is incredible cruel and unjust, and I helped to the silly Jowan happily. (I had dont knew about Anders, or Kirkwall, and I had dont knew also Wynne, I just saw the origin-quest, and the guards, who dont let me out of Circle, and the tranquils... before my Surana became grey warden)
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 21, 2016 21:54:37 GMT
@ dragontartare - On case of Feynriel I won't bash myself out for making him being safe to everyone inclueding his beloved mother. So I will leave it there, if there would be possiblity of Solas training this lad I would sent him without any regret.
I think Fenris will reappear as someone who helps organizing slaves rebellion. I think the most possible for DA 4 scenario is few plots like in Inquisition were - one for intrigue in Winter Palace and one with Wardens. Here from end of DA I I may tell at least two possible plots - Slave Rebellion since this theme is boiling up slowly since Origins introduction of Tevinter in general - I would like to see Valora (Soris first wife) again this time as older slave, or Valendrian/Cyrion Tabris. Second is the change led by Dorian and his bunch of mages. At very third may be possibility of stopping Solas, however it would be interesting to see his plan fullfilled. Then we have confirm that Inquisitor will reappear so Solas theme is very likely to be put there. We may also be put inside a war with Qunari.
I have three characters in Origins - Enayra Tabris (City Elf) whom I replayed like ... 5 times ? Thosen Mahariel (Dalish Elf) done once, and Adalene Cousland (Human Noble) done once. So in general I beat this game like 7 times. I know every detail of it, and mine sense of duty must be inspiring since I hate so much some parts of this game. At least on different characters like Adalene I could force Isolde to kill Connor by herself. On Thosen she was sacrificed in ritual, and yes I do hate this hag Isolde. I have nothing to Connor. Yes, Origins did feel "off" when it comes to too weird silence of Warden. I love role play so this silence was small matter to me, but it still seem so odd especially when BioWare is making dialogues usually for voiced protagonists and fully cinematic "more living" cut-scenes.
About Mass Effect I won't write here. It's beautiful, it's sad, it's amazing and utterly depressing to me personal since both of them (mine characters) must have been killed in the end.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 21, 2016 22:10:20 GMT
I not speak about what was Fenris reason to became a slave. I know that. I said that he rejects the death as an opportunity. A lot of people lives in a corrupt country (Kirkwall also corrupt, as Tevinter), but still LIVES, and probably not as a zombie. Because YES, the tranquility is BAD. This is not "just Anders' lunatic vision". Feynriel will be able to control himself, he know what dangerous his talent, and not fool. As I said: he already have experience with the fade's demons, and he got some study from the elves. Yes, he can be dangerous, but can be also useful. Do not tell me, that better to live as a zombie than live in Tevinter. (True, if you are a zombie without independent thought, and you forget, what is the feel something, maybe no matter, than you are a zombie ... well, I would rather not think about it.) But as I said (let me quote myself) "Of course it's a possibility, but please, don't justify with that "Feynriel begged for it"." Tranquility is a TOOL. Only a tool. Humans who weild it may use it in bad ways, or good ways. End of story. I used it as matter of his wish. I did it because he wished it, not when he was screaming that he want to be still mage. If you don't see the difference then it's not mine problem really - it's even more annoying since you think I should be ashamed of making very very very very dangerous and careless video game character tranquil on his wish. She didn't do it out of abuse on him (unlike Thekla case was - which is failed example to use here anyway), she did it because she knew he was too dangerous as well as he was aware of it so he wanted for it to end. Some tranquil were made as Thekla was - against their will, however some like Adan or perhaps this Meredith helper were made on wish. I think if someone would make ther re-tranquil they wouldn't sound as desperate as Karl was. On the contrary they would possible be aware that they wanted to be tranquil because they are not able to control their own powers. That one was the first reason for tranquility to appear as tool in circles. For mages who are unable to control their magic a.k.a. with very weak will. (<-like Feynriel) Cassandra was made tranquil too, every one of them was - yeah and tranquility may be reversed. Feynriel was dangerous. I do not regret that this was what must have been done once he understood fully what dangers are right in his own head. You can't compare a dreamer to normal mage. Normal mage can not do anything general in case of changing fade from within, Feynriel and Solas can do it only. And Feynriel was not trained as mage for better part of his life. He is literally like a careless toddler in this Fade realm. Tevinter is as bad as it seems. Maybe he will change for good. But also very huge opportunity for him to change into monstrum and kill many people. Tevinter in it's own greed won't stop from anything. DA O, II and I ware clear in it's message there about it. I will stop it right over her with Tranquility problem since our argue does seem like Anders against Fenris. In this case you are Anders and I am Fenris. Yes mine view on magic may explain why I could not have rival relation with Fenris. Yes I do understand mages problem, but I cannot ignore the danger that some of them pose. And Feynriel was the worst when it comes to danger. I feel no regret for Eloise doings. I am unsure how corruption of Tevinter would change Feynriel so I must expect the worst.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 21, 2016 22:32:58 GMT
(Oops, you said: his wish, you also care about a fictional character's will...) I still do not understand. You worries to Feynriel because he must to live in the corrupt Tevinter, but don't worries, if he must to live as zombie, in the corrupt Kirkwall. Where is the logic? (Do not count meta-knowledge, the DA2 was not possible to reverse the Tranquility!) Yes the tranquility is a tool. My mage Karl Trevelyan is used. Lord Livius Erimond was his victim. He was too arrogant to suit Karl's taste, and he showed no remorse, and he was really dangerous and "evil". You do not have to regret what your character had doing with Feynriel, it is a roleplay possibility, just don't justify with that "Feynriel begged for it". This is my ONLY problem... BUT: you can justify with this, if your character is a hyppocrite.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 21, 2016 23:12:46 GMT
(Oops, you said: his wish, you also care about a fictional character's will...) I still do not understand. You worries to Feynriel because he must to live in the corrupt Tevinter, but don't worries, if he must to live as zombie, in the corrupt Kirkwall. Where is the logic? (Do not count meta-knowledge, the DA2 was not possible to reverse the Tranquility!) Yes the tranquility is a tool. My mage Karl Trevelyan is used. Lord Livius Erimond was his victim. He was too arrogant to suit Karl's taste, and he showed no remorse, and he was really dangerous and "evil". You do not have to regret what your character had doing with Feynriel, it is a roleplay possibility, just don't justify with that "Feynriel begged for it". This is my ONLY problem... BUT: you can justify with this, if your character is a hyppocrite. I worry about Feynriel since his powers are over the top. He is too powerfull for his own good. I let him be in Circle or in Dalish. Both failed. Now I must trust Tevinter ?? TEVINTER ? And we speak about Eloise Hawke. For her like for Enayra Tabris (who was Warden there) Tevinter = HELL. Eloise HATED the idea of Tevinter itself. Hated it. And there was only few things she hated. She was too humorous, who tried so hard to cheer up situation even if the only appropriate behave should be in tears. Let me look - she was someone who romanced Fenris, an escaped slave whose owner was abusive (rapist) and his student Hadriana was someone who on daily basis practise blood magic with usage of slaves. Denarius was magister from MAGISTERIUM. Yes, the Magisterium. You know the thing which RULES the Tevinter ? Now, what does Feynriel first action looks like ? He is almost sold into slavery. She already has seen his very possible fate - turning into abomination like Olivia did. And he is Dreamer. Put that two together he will be unstoppable monster. Yes, tranquility is tool, yes it should be used wisely but intstead it was overused and abused by templars like Karras. Still tranquility as tool has it's reason to exist. The one of them is too making sure that unpredictable uncontrollable unstable and weak will mage will be no longer a threat to itself and everyone around it. Exacly like Feynriel was. Eloise did not feel any pleasure for doing this, but for her as well for Feynriel it was reasonable to do it. Tranquils are not threat. Usually they are kept and living in Circle. By the time Feynriel was tranquiled Circles were working, and Feynriel was kept feed, healthy and working possibly like any other tranquil on books or enchanting. He was not left anywhere and forgotten. Then you have Anders chaos - but Eloise could NOT predict what Anders will do. If she did perhaps she would organize some shelter for every tranquil from Circle as well as shelter for Bethany - she did care about everyone. She did not devalue someone just because they are tranquil or are another race. Mine character is not a hypocrite, she should be if she was ... a mage, and even if she was there you have situation like Erimond where mage can possibly do a tranquility. This alone should be top of hypocricy. She was not a mage. She was a rogue archer after all. And Feynriel was dangerous with his powers. Mostly she was concerned about possibility of him becoming a huge walking monstrum who would kill everybody in sight - exacly as Marethari warned you. Put also to mind what she thought about Tevinter being a real-life hell and you have reasonable option to know that tranquility has reasons to exist. To understand this choice is needed knowledge of role play as Eloise Hawke. I will also clarify why she was NOT afraid of Kirkwall. She loved it, she tried very hard to protect it and to make it better. Better place for mages, better place for common people, etc. She tried hard to keep up Meredith and Orisino both in places without giving them reasons to tear each other apart. For Feynriel being in Kirkwall she was sure she WILL BE in Kirkwall so anyway she will be able to help him if he will have problem as tranquil. This cannot be said once he will gone as mage to Tevinter. He will fall into problems there - she won't be near to stop him , to help him or whatever. Without help before Feynriel had 2 chances alone to be abomination, he just needed little more time wothout Eloise saving him. She did not predict Anders action and did NOT want to leave Kirkwall. Erimond was too much of dangerous lunatical buffon so both Ariaze Adaar and Evelyn Travelyan made him tranquil. Verissa Lavellan chopped his head off. I wonder WHY there was no option to tranquil him if your Inquisitor is not a mage but has alliance with Templars.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 21, 2016 23:52:22 GMT
[...] I wonder WHY there was no option to tranquil him if your Inquisitor is not a mage but has alliance with Templars. This is an Inquisition perk that can be acquired at the war table, you know, my characters have all, so quickly as I can get.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 21, 2016 23:53:04 GMT
@ dragontartare - On case of Feynriel I won't bash myself out for making him being safe to everyone inclueding his beloved mother. So I will leave it there, if there would be possiblity of Solas training this lad I would sent him without any regret. I think Fenris will reappear as someone who helps organizing slaves rebellion. I think the most possible for DA 4 scenario is few plots like in Inquisition were - one for intrigue in Winter Palace and one with Wardens. Here from end of DA I I may tell at least two possible plots - Slave Rebellion since this theme is boiling up slowly since Origins introduction of Tevinter in general - I would like to see Valora (Soris first wife) again this time as older slave, or Valendrian/Cyrion Tabris. Second is the change led by Dorian and his bunch of mages. At very third may be possibility of stopping Solas, however it would be interesting to see his plan fullfilled. Then we have confirm that Inquisitor will reappear so Solas theme is very likely to be put there. We may also be put inside a war with Qunari. I have three characters in Origins - Enayra Tabris (City Elf) whom I replayed like ... 5 times ? Thosen Mahariel (Dalish Elf) done once, and Adalene Cousland (Human Noble) done once. So in general I beat this game like 7 times. I know every detail of it, and mine sense of duty must be inspiring since I hate so much some parts of this game. At least on different characters like Adalene I could force Isolde to kill Connor by herself. On Thosen she was sacrificed in ritual, and yes I do hate this hag Isolde. I have nothing to Connor. Yes, Origins did feel "off" when it comes to too weird silence of Warden. I love role play so this silence was small matter to me, but it still seem so odd especially when BioWare is making dialogues usually for voiced protagonists and fully cinematic "more living" cut-scenes. About Mass Effect I won't write here. It's beautiful, it's sad, it's amazing and utterly depressing to me personal since both of them (mine characters) must have been killed in the end. There is no bashing, it's just a discussion  A slave rebellion in Tevinter would definitely be interesting to see, but I wouldn't want them to hand-wave the Solas plot as a main focus of the story. We know Solas has elven agents all over Thedas, and I'm sure that would include some slaves in Tevinter. Fenris wouldn't knowingly support a plot to tear down the veil, but I have to wonder if Solas (or agents of Solas) would be able to trick him into helping by making Fenris think he is just taking part in a slave rebellion. During one of the gifting quests, Fenris tells Hawke that Tevinter would crumble without slaves (and I believe Dorian says something similar), so if widespread slave rebellion instigated by Solas is part of DA4, then the Qunari would have an opening to swoop in and just take Tevinter without much opposition, if they so chose...no war necessary, and the rest of Thedas probably wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight if they are also being attacked or undermined by elves. I'm really excited for DA4, but if it ends up as complex as all of our speculation, then I hope they take their time with it! True, but you might as well also say that execution is "only a tool." It's oversimplifying. My first Inquisitor, herself a mage, sentenced Alexius to tranquility after seeing what sort of future he would have created. She felt justified in that because he had proven himself to be dangerous to the point of destroying Thedas. Her shame and anger over what one of "her own" had done numbed her to any sympathy she might have felt for him. However, that is not my justification for tranquility as a reasonable punishment...it is my Inquisitor's in-universe justification, only. Feynriel was not at risk of possession because he was weak, he was at risk because he wasn't properly trained to use his extraordinary powers. His mother made a big mistake, in hindsight, thinking she would be able to train him herself. When Hawke enters the fade to rescue Feynriel, Hawke doesn't have to work very hard to "free" him from each demon. I think the first dialog option I chose worked every time. If he were weak, the demons in the dream would have had a firmer hold on him. In my game, even Fenris was weaker than Feynriel, because one of the demons managed to convince him to betray Hawke (which I have headcannoned plenty of angst over, believe me  ) Cassandra went through the rite of tranquility, yes, but she wasn't a mage, so we don't know that it had the same effect on her as it does on them. As of DA2, no one knew that tranquility was reversible. Even as of DAI, all we know is that tranquility can be reversed, kind of, but we don't know how nor what the side effects would be. There's potential there to help mages who were unjustly made tranquil, but still no guarantee of success. Not quite sure I understand what you are saying about Tevinter. Was that your Hawke's justification for not sending Feynriel there? While it's true that Tevinter is an awful place, there are still good people from there, and with Feynriel being part elf, I think he is in greater danger of being recruited by Solas than of being recruited by an evil magister or slaver. If Feynriel has the potential to be in DA4, actually, I hope the Inquisition gets to him first. (Hey, that could be one potential mission involving Hawke/Fenris!) As far as Feynriel asking to be made tranquil, is that your Hawke's reasoning for making him so? If so, what did he or she do with Orana? Orana had known nothing but slavery when Hawke rescued her, and comments that everything had been fine up until that day. Same with Varania, who was so overwhelmed by freedom after years of being a slave that she was willing to betray Fenris just to get away from her freedom. Both Orana and Varania would have initially chosen slavery over freedom if given the choice, but does that mean Hawke should give it to them? As condescending as it sounds, none of these three knew what was best for them in choosing slavery/tranquility. They chose out of fear. Again, no bashing here. It's just a discussion
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 21, 2016 23:56:37 GMT
[...] I wonder WHY there was no option to tranquil him if your Inquisitor is not a mage but has alliance with Templars. This is an Inquisition perk that can be acquired at the war table, you know, my characters have all, so quickly as I can get. Really ? Because I was confused. I would swear Verissa was making him tranquil, but then when I did Evelyn I checked wikia and right over there was written that tranquility is only for mage Inquisitors. And of those three only Verissa Lavellan wasn't a mage only rogue archer. So I was left confused, before Evelyn I would swear that Lavellan did tranquil him but then wikia says it was impossible. So I assume she beheaded him.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 22, 2016 0:02:00 GMT
This is an Inquisition perk that can be acquired at the war table, you know, my characters have all, so quickly as I can get. Really ? Because I was confused. I would swear Verissa was making him tranquil, but then when I did Evelyn I checked wikia and right over there was written that tranquility is only for mage Inquisitors. And of those three only Verissa Lavellan wasn't a mage only rogue archer. So I was left confused, before Evelyn I would swear that Lavellan did tranquil him but then wikia says it was impossible. So I assume she beheaded him. Yes, you right, sorry... I mixed with Arcane knowledge.
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 22, 2016 0:29:46 GMT
dragontartare - Eloise stand on Tevinter ? Oh it's simple. Tevinter Imperium = HELL. Where Blood Magic is overused, where slaves are meaningless tools so bunch of mages can be overpowered, where common people are struggling with living, where morality does no longer exist - just look at how corrupted was Varania at the end, she was disgusting creature. Or Hadriana. Eloise and we speak about her only since I was experimenting on other two about how their carelessness will do havoc in case of Feynriel in Tevinter - a.k.a. what Feynriel "tha prize" for demons and blood mages will do - was seeing Tevinter as the WORST place ever. Literally THE WORST. There was nothing good what came out of this country. Fenris doesn't count since he was ESCAPED SLAVE. How did Tevinter presented itself for her ? For once myths about corruption, second this Black Divine and their Chantry - now Eloise was atheist but Leandra and Bethany wasn't so they surely keep up with tradition of talking about Tevinter as craddle of all evil. Third slavery - main job of Eloise was to kill slavers, and rescue slaves. She did gave payed job to this poor Orana, in this one matter they little argue with Fenris becuase he foolishly assumed that she was making Orana a slave again. Fourth Kirkwall itself showing what actually Tevinter did CARE or rather didn't care about slaves. They were meaningless animals for them, slaughtered with no regret. Hadriana, Denarius, Fenris personal history, slavers, pirates working for slavers for Tevinter, Bone Pit history, Blights which forced all of them to leave Ferelden. She was literally surrounded by EVERYTHING what screamed to her "Tevinter is EVIL". Sending Tevinter a.k.a. the craddle of Evil the most powerfull mage who may become someone who is able to kill people while they sleep ? Well ... how about: NO. For her it was simple that once Feynriel will go there the Tevinter: a) corrupt him morally so bad that he will kill people in sleep on daily basis so Eloise may have more blood on her hands or  the Tevinter will NOT help Feynriel and he will in one moment turn into this monstrum abomination which has been feared even by Marethari. For her the little c) was this: Feynriel will learn slowly about his magic, tempted more and more by demons. Just how much of high demon time took to turn every Hawke companion back in Fade ? A single moment and puff. Now imagine Feynriel being tempted only by one of them. Easy prey. It was Fenris who questionated how many times does it take for a mage to finally start doubting that demon don't have the point and their offer is good. Such Wynne had her spirit protecting her, Anders got Justice, but Feynriel have nobody. And he is too powerfull to be ignored by demons. I really doubt Solas will be interested in anybody who is human, besides Travelyan Inquisitor. Do I think Solas is a threat ? Yeah. Do I condamn him ? Partially only. He did recognize that this world has it's wonders. Varania was really that bad and corrupted that she found that Tevinter works in very stupid way. Like Dorian explained. She didn't liked the position in free poverty, she saw an ability to get higher in rank by helping Denarius the rapist get back Fenris so since she may be rewarded she will use it. Just to help herself. None care about her brother. None. That is what Tevinter obviously does to people. Even Dorian wasn't any better since he did not complain about slavery, he was too much concerned over how anti-homo Tevinter was. That alone reminded me how insulting was Leliana to mine Enayra Tabris in Origins where she was telling how better elves are treated in Orlais, while ignoring that all what she described was how to treat someone as thing not living creature. Perhaps Eloise was too much about equality to even see any benefit from Tevinter. On the other hand I may remember what various Qunari were telling her about how she should be in Qun since the way she sees things. Of course that was before Iquisition messed up that badly Qun itself. Orana never knew how to behave as free person. She was needing to be learned it, so Eloise started to help her by giving her job in her house to make sure she will have time to explain Orana how things work when you are free. As for Varania I think she never got a chance to learn how to behave as free, the Tevinter with slavery should not be helpful in this either, she was probably forced to sell herself and mother died in this poverty. That would make way for her slow hatred to what Fenris/Leto did by paying for their freedom. She did remind me of Carver Hawke ... with her hatred put to ultimatum since she was selling her brother back to slavery.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 22, 2016 2:18:41 GMT
dragontartare - Eloise stand on Tevinter ? Oh it's simple. Tevinter Imperium = HELL. Where Blood Magic is overused, where slaves are meaningless tools so bunch of mages can be overpowered, where common people are struggling with living, where morality does no longer exist - just look at how corrupted was Varania at the end, she was disgusting creature. Or Hadriana. Eloise and we speak about her only since I was experimenting on other two about how their carelessness will do havoc in case of Feynriel in Tevinter - a.k.a. what Feynriel "tha prize" for demons and blood mages will do - was seeing Tevinter as the WORST place ever. Literally THE WORST. There was nothing good what came out of this country. Fenris doesn't count since he was ESCAPED SLAVE. How did Tevinter presented itself for her ? For once myths about corruption, second this Black Divine and their Chantry - now Eloise was atheist but Leandra and Bethany wasn't so they surely keep up with tradition of talking about Tevinter as craddle of all evil. Third slavery - main job of Eloise was to kill slavers, and rescue slaves. She did gave payed job to this poor Orana, in this one matter they little argue with Fenris becuase he foolishly assumed that she was making Orana a slave again. Fourth Kirkwall itself showing what actually Tevinter did CARE or rather didn't care about slaves. They were meaningless animals for them, slaughtered with no regret. Hadriana, Denarius, Fenris personal history, slavers, pirates working for slavers for Tevinter, Bone Pit history, Blights which forced all of them to leave Ferelden. She was literally surrounded by EVERYTHING what screamed to her "Tevinter is EVIL". Sending Tevinter a.k.a. the craddle of Evil the most powerfull mage who may become someone who is able to kill people while they sleep ? Well ... how about: NO. For her it was simple that once Feynriel will go there the Tevinter: a) corrupt him morally so bad that he will kill people in sleep on daily basis so Eloise may have more blood on her hands or  the Tevinter will NOT help Feynriel and he will in one moment turn into this monstrum abomination which has been feared even by Marethari. For her the little c) was this: Feynriel will learn slowly about his magic, tempted more and more by demons. Just how much of high demon time took to turn every Hawke companion back in Fade ? A single moment and puff. Now imagine Feynriel being tempted only by one of them. Easy prey. It was Fenris who questionated how many times does it take for a mage to finally start doubting that demon don't have the point and their offer is good. Such Wynne had her spirit protecting her, Anders got Justice, but Feynriel have nobody. And he is too powerfull to be ignored by demons. I really doubt Solas will be interested in anybody who is human, besides Travelyan Inquisitor. Do I think Solas is a threat ? Yeah. Do I condamn him ? Partially only. He did recognize that this world has it's wonders. Varania was really that bad and corrupted that she found that Tevinter works in very stupid way. Like Dorian explained. She didn't liked the position in free poverty, she saw an ability to get higher in rank by helping Denarius the rapist get back Fenris so since she may be rewarded she will use it. Just to help herself. None care about her brother. None. That is what Tevinter obviously does to people. Even Dorian wasn't any better since he did not complain about slavery, he was too much concerned over how anti-homo Tevinter was. That alone reminded me how insulting was Leliana to mine Enayra Tabris in Origins where she was telling how better elves are treated in Orlais, while ignoring that all what she described was how to treat someone as thing not living creature. Perhaps Eloise was too much about equality to even see any benefit from Tevinter. On the other hand I may remember what various Qunari were telling her about how she should be in Qun since the way she sees things. Of course that was before Iquisition messed up that badly Qun itself. Orana never knew how to behave as free person. She was needing to be learned it, so Eloise started to help her by giving her job in her house to make sure she will have time to explain Orana how things work when you are free. As for Varania I think she never got a chance to learn how to behave as free, the Tevinter with slavery should not be helpful in this either, she was probably forced to sell herself and mother died in this poverty. That would make way for her slow hatred to what Fenris/Leto did by paying for their freedom. She did remind me of Carver Hawke ... with her hatred put to ultimatum since she was selling her brother back to slavery. Thing is, though, Orana, Varania, and Dorian were all raised in Tevinter, a place where slavery is touted as a better alternative to extreme poverty. All three of them would agree with that view, because they don't know any better, and would need that view challenged before they could change their minds about slavery. This does not make them bad people. Most people stick to the morals with which they are raised, changing only slowly and over a period of time as life experiences dictate. Even Fenris did not feel the need to escape from Danarius until he spent several months away from him and was forced by him to kill his friends. That was the challenge Fenris needed to realize how bad his life was as a slave. Unlike Fenris, Dorian, Varania, and Orana have seen nothing to challenge their view that being a slave is better than being extremely poor. They are wrong, of course, but they need to be shown that, else how would they know? An Orana hired by Hawke would have the opportunity to see how good freedom can be...but what about Orana who ends up selling herself at the Blooming Rose? That Orana ends up as a slave again anyway, just by another name. Would that Orana appreciate her "freedom," or would she wish she were back with Hadriana? It is the same way with Varania. Freedom evidently went so terribly for her that she ended up resenting and hating her brother for it. She is not "corrupted"; rather, her life has provided a mountain of evidence that she would have been better off in slavery and that what Fenris did to her was terrible. It is tragic, and I have nothing but sympathy for her, no matter what she tried to do to Fenris. (I do hope she comes to regret and atone for what she tried to do, though.) You can see Dorian's views gradually changing in DAI. There is a some party banter in which Iron Bull (I think?) tells Dorian to just free all the slaves if he is so sorry, and Dorian responds that he can't. Not that he doesn't want to, or that he doesn't think he should, but rather that he is unable to. Fenris tells Hawke the same thing: with any threat of slave rebellion, the magisters unite and crush the rebellion easily. (Also, to defend Dorian, it isn't just the "anti-homo" stance of Tevinter that he objects to. Give him some credit. He is a huge opposer of any kind of blood magic, and that is his main fight in Tevinter. He laments the homophobia of his homeland, but once again, he considers it to be normal. You can see this if you try to romance him, that he is confused by the idea of an emotional relationship with another man.) Feynriel, on the other hand, was NOT raised in Tevinter. He is a young half-elf who has known freedom, who has likely been taught of the evils of slavery, and to say that studying magic in Tevinter will definitely turn him into a slave-owning blood mage is a bit alarmist, I think. He could end up being a force for good in Tevinter. As awful as Tevinter is, I disagree that stripping an innocent person of all capacity for emotion is preferable. Your Hawke and I will have to agree to disagree there As for Solas, I think he will do whatever it takes to achieve his ends. If that means using a half-elven mage who can walk in dreams, so that the Inquisition cannot have him, then I don't think Feynriel being part human would stop him. It might even make Feynriel more appealing, since he is a product of two races that Solas deems "inferior," and therefore easy to control and less of a threat to Solas himself (probably). So um...Fenris thread, am I right?  Here's a nice tribute I found on YouTube:
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Post by Catilina on Aug 22, 2016 3:34:01 GMT
Nice video, yes, I like. And you right. Fenris got a chance, when he killed the fog-warriors. (That scene, when he speak about this, was shocking, cruel and expressive.) Orana never knew the freedom, she just want to live. Varania was free, but she want to run away from the extreme poverty. I always convinced Fenris to let her go. Dorian? Dorian as the citizens in the ancient Rome. The slavery was common, Dorian was always around by slaves, as the furnitures, as the air. Maybe this sounds cruel, such is human nature: he don't questioned this everyday thing. We can blame him for the insensibility, but this insensibility is a human trait. Maybe it does not absolve him, but definitely we need to look at him a different angle. And this is depend on it: his family how treats the slaves. We do not know about it too much. His personal problem, was much more real to him. He simply did not address the issue of slavery. Tevinter policy was his personal matter, the slavery not. This " anti-homo" thing his own life…
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Post by noname55rr on Aug 22, 2016 11:02:28 GMT
@ Catilina and dragontartare - I do not dwell on Dorian here - since he must have his own topic. And it wasn't the first time when someone noticed how Dorian on tip top priority has put his own sexuality - which as far as I know is concerned "wrong" by everyone else just like Tevinter in Thedas. So reasons to make this priority seem odd for me, unless I would put it as teenage rebellion. And not only for since it was someone else who previoulsy wrote that his main concern is Tevinter being anti-homo. What his father did was pitifull and out of desperation, and Dorian have the right to be upset over this Blood Magic ritual which could turn him into brain dead person. But I also understand how desperate Magister Pavus was since his only child wanted to turn parias of society and be literally the end of entire Pavus family. Because you know, I do not remember any adoptions in DA ... there was only one empty orphanage which was slaughtered, but I never heared of adoptions in Thedas. Dorian had my sympathy for entire thing with Blood Magic ritual, or him wanting to be himself as homosexual, but neither of them did saw it as worthy of making it piority - not when we speak about so corrupt as Tevinter is. After all Dorian parents hated each other, were only married on paper while in reality as soon as they had child there was nothing out of marriage to them. I may be stunned of why mother of Dorian turned into constantly drunk person since it was natural for Tevinter to have failed mage marriages, so she propably had plenty of examples of what she can do in this paper marriage. It was only BioWare laziness which have turned her into "alcohol junkie". I see a plenty of bigger issues to Tevinter to make "They are anti-homo !" the priority. Yes, personally it was important to Dorian, but I really doubt that he couldn't be a homosexual in his own marriage. As soon as there would be kid with "paper" wife, she could go whatever she likes, and he would easily go banging males. I may just say this here - I see no huge problem with paper arranged marriage as Dorian saw. My first Warden after all was about to be forced to marry someone who she never saw before. So mine understand to Dorian problem with being paper married to someone strange is just ... absent since I relived this already in Origins. This issue was closed right over there for me. And arranged paper marriages are common. There is plenty of examples - like Enayra Tabris and this poor Nelaros; Allistair with Anora, Cailen with Anora; all Orlais emperors; Leandra Amell and Count DeLauncet etc. Not to mention that at one point Leandra Amell makes it clear that she too is about to arrange marriage for Hawke. She later changes mind only if you have opened romance. So right in first issue with Dorian I have just none real understanding of what's the real deal. I understand him in rest - perhaps not in priority of Tevinter issues, since I would put lack of homosexual tollerance right on the bottom since it is not only Tevinter who do not accept this sort of relations as something normal when we speak about dealings with dynasties and legacies - such Celene could not be openly lesbian as well (not to mention with elf). Not to mention he did say that Alienage is worse than Tevinter slavery. I would dare him to say this to Enayra Tabris. I would dare him. Especially if it was in Origins where you were able saw the real consequences of Tevinter slave trade. I have NONE understanding to Varania since she must have KNOWN what Denarius is doing to Fenris on daily basis. She must have been aware of this too well right over there when she decided to sell him for promise of being Magister student as replacement to Hadriana. Her hatred was so huge that she must have put in shame Carver Hawke. I may have sympathy just for Fenris that he has such sister. Right back to Feynriel I made it clear - I do not trust him to be able to ever control his magic, neither I trust Tevinter. Not to mention now Tevinter is attacked again by Qunari ! And Qunari are unstoppable ! His chances to turn like Olivia and Circle Girl are now as high as ever. I generally expect BioWare to go full ME 3 here. Really. "Oh so you free Feynriel and sent to Tevinter ?! HA ! See what we did here !? Feel serviced fan ! Here it comes Feynriel the huge abomination !" BioWare was never unforgiving, for one mistake, one bad choice you always had to pay the price. I do not like what qunari do to mages, since it's too cruel and does not educate them to use their magic wisely. Oh, dear .. I now see yet another tragic ending possibility for letting Feynriel go to Tevinter. He can land in hands of qunari !! Like I said I don't allow Orana to go there with money only, money will do nothing to her. It's common sense that this girl needed an education of freedom since just like Fenris before she is unable to see the better things in freedom. Back to Dorian I may not have his stances with Iron Bull because I NEVER took Dorian with Iron Bull together on both Evelyn and Verissa. Only sometimes there was some banter on Araize. Neither I had Dorian and Bull romance topic. And I did Ariaze little while (like ... two years ago ?) so mine memory of what exact banter those two had is really unsure.
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