Fenris – "Festis bei umo canavarum!"

@ Catilina - Back in the day Templar Order wasn't in the Chantry. That's what Lucius said - "The Chantry has betrayed us !" he meant that Templar Order inside Chantry was a pact. They have join Chantry. You played Jaws of Hakkon ?
There was Haron the ancient templar whose Order was just formed from Seekers of the Truth if I good recall. Seekers of the Truth are the ones who should at very least check up on Templars. Chantry the only way it's biding Templars is to use more and more Lyrium.
(spoiler) First Inquisitor mentioned that back in his days world was more open to mages, that's why he was able to be elven mage on position usually given to non magical people. (spoiler end)
Chantry was as fresh as Templar Order, but order itself originated from Seekers of Truth who had far more other duties than Chantry.
Not to mention there was also Inquisition.

Sorry ? I think you should be only sorry for this stupid attack. I didn't called you names at anything. You did on me however.
You thought it's funny that I agree only on part with Chantry ? Yeah Andraste put it right - magic should serve people not rule them.
In Tevinter it's clear that magic can be misused, bah in Elven history it was also fact.
I hate Chantry in general but first lesson of it was just right because it was based on facts from life itself.
Templar uses lyrium but it does give them special abilities, there was a table quest where you could clearly see the benefits of usage of lyrium in hands of trained well templars. It was quest for Dorian where you send templars to protect his friend in Tevinter.
I don't buy Leliana vision since it's lacking in details. I wonder what will she do in next times where another "ancient" evil will show up and there will be magical enemies once again.
She don't have Templars, very likely don't have Inquisition so who will fight then ? Common people ? It will be massacre, and sending mages against demons is not the wise idea either. Just remember Tarohne or what Uldred did to other mages in Ferelden Circle.

To fill up curiosity - Hawke is basically untouchable. She/He is the Champion of Kirkwall, even if she/he is a mage Templars won't really dare to arrest Hawke and put to Circle. Romance with Fenris - real one begins in Act II after all. By the end of Act II Hawke is already nominated Champion of Kirkwall. That's almost the same as Hero of Ferelden title. It would be utter stupidity for anyone in Kirkwall to try treat Hawke just like some refugee after Act II.
More curious is fate of Bethany either way since she was Circle mage and now Circles are either changed or just disband.
Fenris is very dedicated to his love so I guess for Hawke he can easily go fight against Templars - like he always does at the end of DA II for me. Remember Malcolm Hawke espcaped from Circle sucessfully with help of one of templars.

Mine Hawke did NOT hate magic. I told you already. They treated mages like human beings just a little more dangerous thanks to their magic.
If someone really does Hawke who hates magic they must hate Bethany as well, this is sick scenerio for game.
What I said about Huon was sad facts only, nothing to be angry about. First mistake was that he was kept, second that Nyssa couldn't get divorce one they took him. I never understood why Circles don't have guaranteed visits. I mean Leandra somehow was visiting Bethany, just like Eamon visits his children. Why then Nyssa wasn't allowed to see Huon ? I don't understand.
You were pretty angry about mine words which basically were what Cassandra was talking about what she would do as Divine - keep Templars as anti-magic forces, change Circles into academies ruled by mages themselves.
If this makes you so upset then I can't imagine you not arguing with Cassandra on daily basis in Inquisition.

Well obviously Templars are used as tools by Chantry, and I think kings would also misuse them.
There was situation with Barris I believe where some lord wannabe wanted to use Templars to throw away legal Circle Mages who wanted to evacuate. If Mages may have at end this organization of Enchanters then why Templars won't ?
Many of them were just old soldiers who served the duty of protecting people FROM magical dangers.
Inquisition worked for two years as independent, and Wardens also work as independent, why not Templars then ?
Wardens are fighters to Blight, and Templars are fighters specializating in demons and magical dangers - something what Grey Warden Commander Clarel failed in Adamant.

Fenris and Hawke treats each other as persons. It's not the issue of ideology. I wonder why would you start thread about Fenris if anything what he thinks you already laughed at during our exchange. Not to mention adding insults.
Anders also may love someone who is more pro-templar. Since also he has rivalmance. Fenris do NOT hate magic.
He is not Justice to hate, he hates slavers yes, but not magic and mages !
He KNOWS the dangers of magic and wants others to just calm down because going like Anders with pro-mage radicalism is also bad idea.
What Fenris stand is sounds like "Mages should be perhaps free, but they are also very dangerous. If you let them free as you say, then many of them may be not ready for this freedom and entire world. Many of them will be not trained to oppose demons, there will be more victims if someone will set them free without any plan." i.e. basically entire plan of Anders.
I never heard from Justice some details about how organize education, homes, lives everything for those mages once Circle would be destroyed.
It was very short-sighted vision. That's why even pro-mage Theresa who believed in this idea in general wasn't so eager to go full radical to fight for this since world was not ready for this too.
Justice makes Anders don't care about rest. It's either mages or nothing else.

Like I said before you insulted me for no reason our exchange is about ideas. Ideas which were lived by Fenris or Anders. I understood that very very very radical PRO-MAGE Hawke will be rivals. I just don't buy of why do you think I HAVE TO in game think 100% like Justice.
I played as less radical idealistic pro-mage, who also wanted to help people. And by this thinking like Justice is not going to work.

dragontartare - I think Templar who was so easily posses in Origins did have depression. Also I answered to you what may be a "silent suffer" since you didn't believed in something like this even existing. Or at least that's how I understood your words to it.
I don't make things up here. Silent suffer is usually attached to mental problems. Many of Templars are not SUPPOSE to show any weakness. Remember how Meredith at her end was screaming to other templars "You are all weak !!!" that was supposed to be insult to them. Also how Cullen in Inquisition went about how he is expected to give his best and he cannot do it without lyrium ? Yeah, sounds to me like persuassion from society to Templars overall "You are suppose to have no weakness". That's pressure from society of Thedas.
If something bothers them they are supposed to be quiet about it, if they suffer nobody wants to hear this.
That's the easiest path to gain serious depression and mental problems.
You don't expect weakness from Grey Wardens and Templars alike. You usually MAY expect problems from Circle given how many of them is taken by age of 12 from families.
And yeah Circle life for some is also bad, mages react different to situations. Anders may have depression from Chantry preaching at Circle about how "magic is bad" but such Wynne was thinking that Circle was the best what happened to her. Even if she lost her son there by Chantry.
About Carver I explained already how his behave looked and how it did end up in role-playing. It was not love, it was hate from his side.
That's how it turned out. If you would play a character who mocks him, then fine. You could see love from Carver.
But when you play like I played this self-sacrificing patient sister it only resembles blind hate, nothing else.

Anyway I didn't want to argue with you at any point. My main concern was this attack from Catilina anyway.
There may be some language barrier because I surely at points had hard time to understand Catilina and some of your postis too.

lilyenachaos You are right, of course

I apologise, You're right.

That voice! (I also played with WoW, and maybe I will continue.)

I can understand Fenris' feeling about mages, you can believe me. But: I think, mage (apostate!) Hawke also have a feeling about mage-hatred. As I see the feeling is mutual.
Yes, I know: Hawke lived in a harmonic family, as long as Fenris was a slave, then Fenris' feling so much harder, but I can imagine that Hawke's understanding mingled disappointment, and that sometimes s/he lost his/her patiente. This can explain the rivalry.

You do not need to repeat that "the mages can't be treated as a people". As I see, Hawke was much easier to convinced Cullen from the opposite view, than to me to convince you (or/and your mage). I think, I like Cullen... No problem. I almost said: funny, but now I know, this is an insult (don't take the sarcasm too seriously!).

You can send Ella to home (away from Kirkwall), or the Circle (naturally my Hawke(s) sent her to home, because the Kirkwall Circle is not safe) Fenris get 5 friendship point for saving Ella, and 10 rivalry for sent her to home. If Hawke send back her to the Circle, s/he receive 10 frinedship points from Fenris.
[Video: Ella quest – Anders lost his control over Justice, but can turn back – Ella sent to home; the bottom option is the Circle 11:35]

Please, no more Anders, Mage–Templar conflict or Circle issue here, if not directly related with Fenris! I like this theme, but I think much people confused from it here.

And more:

Same here.  I did recognize Jo Wyatt did the Imp Agent in SWTOR (go me), but I totally didn't realize that Gideon Emery was Samson.  The next time he's in my game I'm going to have to pay closer attention.   


Source:  www.deviantart.com/art/C-DragonsFeather-214290895

I do not think that here only need images, the discussion is good, that's keep the topic alive. But not the off topic. All themes welcome, when related with Fenris. (I dont think, for example Vivienne related with him so much.)

The rivalry not too easy with Fenris, at this quest my Hawke was on ~50. But friendship also can be complicated, if I want to play with apostate Hawke fair and believable, and want a credible friendship romance. This should be not based on lie, ergo Hawke must present his/her viewpoint to him. I insist that weird point of view that Hawke send the mages into the Circle and accept the Circle-system, if s/he not going into the Circle. After his/her mother has died, Hawke can go into the Circle without remorse, if s/he would afraid to be dangerous – and s/he MUST believe, that s/he is dangerous, if s/he believe, that EACH mages are dangerous.

That's not fair, if for example I believe in oppression, while I want the freedom for myself. You do not think so?

Fenris don't want see that his love/friend going into the Circle. Nobody want to see that Hawke going into the Circle, and if Hawke would going into the Circle, the game would be over, whithout protagonist. Ergo: the credible (and not hypocrite) apostate Hawke don't want to go into Circle, s/he believe in the mage freedom. I think this way forced by the story. (At the end, I think, mage Hawke can choose the Templars, for Carver, for example.)

With non-mage Hawke this is not question: S/he can be pro-templar or pro-mage. (I think, because of Bethany, pro-mage Hawke always more credible, but this is only my opinion.)

Haha! Yes, it's a good point.
I have Hawke, who was pro-mage, but don't accepted Ander's action, he was in friendship with Fenris. But he also (almost) everywhere took him, because Fenris want to be with him, and he likes if Fenris with him. At the end he have 100% friendship whit him, but wasn't too easy, but I think, a bit easier, than the rivalry. Okay, I admit, in the Act1 I not took him for example to the Gallows (~20 rivalry). The problem is: I feel a bit weird, that he was always patient with Fenris (he was only rarely sarcastic with him), but Fenris just only rarely accepted his opinion. The friendship romance was fine, but I think, this fit rather more a non-mage Hawke (pro-mage or pro-templar, do not matter, I think).
My radical pro-mage Hawke took him everywhere, because he wanted to convince him (maybe not this the best way for convince someone, I know, but), he was stubborn, impatient and hot-headed (and because Fenris want to be with him, and he likes if Fenris with him...). The rivalry was not easy also in that way, because always received a lot of friendship points from Fenris...